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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:46 PM
Original message
You want to know what started the me first attitude in America?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 06:47 PM by Drunken Irishman
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Giant army barracks did?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Clearly it stems from a desire to establish one's self as a special person
Just like everybody else.
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Cant trust em Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Did X precede Y, or did Y precede X? nt
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. ?
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. O'Bama?
:shrug:
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, I do. Pray tell. nt
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I think the image tells enough (that is if it's working).
Americans isolated themselves in the 50s. We built the interstate and the freeways and everyone took off for the suburbs - leaving the urban core, which had thrived often on cooperation and neighborly values - to rot.

The suburban culture has always been about self gratification.

Bigger cars. Bigger yards. Bigger houses.

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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Oh, I thought the pic was your signature pic. nt
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. No...sorry.
haha
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. a good highway system is isolating?
Tell that to those who don't have any. This 'urban core' you idealize was in fact overpriced, over crowded, hot, noisy, constrictive and highly limiting of consumer choice for the majority of the people. Corrupt city governments and police forces had plenty to contribute as well.
In 1900, more than half of NYC lived in tenement buildings. They were terrible in many ways, substandard housing, even for the time. They were disease ridden, people died in large numbers. Cholera, that sort of thing. No plumbing, kerosene light. By 1950 they were moving on.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. A good highway system is not isolating...
But the direct result of it is.


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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. ???
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 09:54 PM by timo
so we would all be better off living in cramped apartments? stacked together like sardines??
sorry, I will take my little farm and you can keep that bullshit!! or wait could it have been the settlers that came here from europe? those selfish bastards really it was that damn columbus HE started all this shit, and those lousy pilgrims...
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Extreme much?
Who said there were only two choices?

Nice hyperbole, though. :eyes:
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. yawn
you really think if everybody lived in in urban settings with no suburban or rural areas that we wouldnt still have serious world wide issues? or that the me first attitude wouldnt exist???
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Who's talking world issues?
I'm talking about our throw away society, which came of age during the 1950s and 60s.

Would it exist? Of course - but that's not the point. The point is that we've allowed it to spread and become the majority mindset of our nation. You want to know why? Because more and more Americans are now living in suburban areas instead of urban areas.



Stuff like that is not good for society. You can excuse it away as much as you'd like, but it doesn't change the fact that because of this type of development, we're hurting our country as a whole. Not only does it damage the environment and continues our dependency on foreign oil, it reinforces the idea of isolation.

There is no connection between urban America and suburban America. It's two different worlds. And I can tell you a vast majority of those who live in suburban areas do not give a rat's ass about the struggles of those in inner-city America.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. ghettos are not good either
seems to me environmental damage and dependency on foreign oil are serious world issues, but citys are no dreamcakes either I wouldnt wanna live in nyc for all the tea in china, fuck that I like living in a rural area and doing my thing here, if it wasnyt for rural farms you city folks would starve it does not make me a "me first attitude" nor does wanting to live in a suburban area, you think it doesnt take a shitload of oil to keep an urban area going? you think citys dont produce a shitload of pollution and eco havoc? and its two different worlds because alot of people dont want to have shit to do with big stinking ass filthy cities and the ills of the ghettos, and all the crap that goes along with it!!!
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I never said cities were perfect...
But they're far more ideal in their setup and cohesiveness than a typical suburban neighborhood.

Most inner-cities are not ghettos. Most suburbs are sprawl, however.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 PM
Original message
in an emergency
people dont run to cities they run away from them, you cant feed yourselves in a city, you depend on everything to be trucked in, supply lines get interrupted and you fall apart. people got fed up with the crap in cities and thats why suburbia got born.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
46. Like that never happens in suburban America, right?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
60. Yeah, and far-flung suburbia will be a virtual utopia when the oil starts to run out.
:eyes:

NGU.

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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
66. It would help if the two of you would pay attention to each other.

He keeps talking about the city versus the suburbs.

You keep talking about the city versus the country and small rural towns.


Frankly, the city has a whole lot more in common with rural towns than either do with the suburbs.

City: dirty
Country: we invented dirt!
Suburbs: you could eat off our sidewalks.

City: whatever.
Country: leave me alone.
Suburbs: Mr. Mayor, I demand you fire police chief Wiggam as I saw him ignore someone driving at least 2MPH over the speed limit.

City: poor
Country: poor
Suburbs: should we build a new swimming pool or a new technology center for the school this year?


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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
62. There is a good reason everyone is pounding you - you are just making things up
Are you saying there is more social pathology is the suburbs? Higher rates of illiteracy, crime and substance abuse? Really? And the statistics that back that up?

Actually the social science about diversity says that the more diverse a community the less people trust each other.

If you dream of the old days of segregated neighborhoods, go to town. But ours is a large nation with lots of room. People should be allowed to live where they want.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
86. People should be allowed to live where they want...
It doesn't mean I can't be critical of their choices. Or the developmental patterns that lead to those choices. Especially when it has an adverse effect on our country.

What is good about sprawl? No I'm not saying suburbs - I am saying sprawl. I'm talking endless miles of homes and suburban shopping centers, highways, freeways, parking lots and nothing remotely close to an urban area.

I see nothing good about it and I believe it has led us down the path of not giving a shit about our neighbors as a whole.

I mean, wasn't that the whole reason many Americans moved out to the burbs? They were tired of the colored folk*?

*Note I am not saying this is the only reason. However, white flight led to the modern American suburb.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #86
94. What is good about sprawl? A lot.
1. People wold not live there unless they wanted to. This sounds circular but the kind of folks that like to own a home like owning a home. People get a certain satisfaction about owning a garden, even a small one. Not depending on a landlord. Folks like to sit on the patio and drink beer and gossip. It is the way many flks are. Remember, not everyone is like you. It does not make them bad.

2. Crime tends to be low in those sprawly places. People do not worry about being mugged. This appeals to women and old folks especially.

3. People tend to live close to where they work. A lot of people work out there. For example, it would be nearly impossible to build a modern intermodal rail hub in Chicago nowadays. They build them way out in the dreaded and hatred sprawl.

You have chosen people in the suburbs as "the other". Fear and hatred need not be you only choice when confronted with people different than you.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. You just proved my point...
People wold not live there unless they wanted to.

Exactly.

Regardless of the impact it has on the environment.

And how many people who live in the suburbs actually work in the suburbs? Do you know how rush hour traffic goes? Generally, unless you're in a mega-city, it's people entering the city during the day and leaving the city at night.

Why is that do you think?

Of course, not EVERYONE does that. But most do.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
61. People spread out when there are a lot of us.
What do you want? Beijing? Mexico City? Cairo?


Sorry, D. Irishman, your OP really doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The us vs them city/suburb thing is divisive. And I live in a city. I've lived in suburbs. Most people live where they can afford. And here in ATL plenty of blacks and other ethnicities live in far out suburbs. I think your paradigm is dated.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
78. Those people don't look isolated. Far from it.
I'd want a bit more isolation if I were in one of those homes.

Isolation was living on a farm or ranch, a mile or two or ten from your closest neighbor. That's how much of America was settled.
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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. your question is extreme but yes...
The vast majority of people living in healthy urban areas with copious green public space and many smaller conscientiously run sustainable farms in the rural areas would alleviate many problems.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
59. Point proven, Irish...
"Sorry, I will take my little farm and you can keep that bullshit."

NGU.

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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #11
64. The tenaments and slums were already rottiing.
The 'cities' were from always being great places to raise a family...your premise is flawed.

People couldn't wait to escape the cities for something better; owning instead of renting, having their own space, etc.

And 'neighborly values' are a product of the people themselves, not necessarily their environment.

You can find them anywhere, even in suburbia.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #64
88. Actually, no.
Most American cities weren't rotting in the 40s. They were very diverse economically, socially and culturally. There were bad areas, of course, but it wasn't slum after slum (that came AFTER everyone took off for the suburbs).

My city sat at roughly 200,000 people in 1950. It had a bustling downtown, thriving communities and then it all slowly declined from there. Downtown died, people moved out (the population decreased to about 150,000 in 1990) and the city vacancy rates rose sharply.

Like I said - all the whites left the cities and with that went the good funding. The suburbs became the power brokers and the cities lost a lot of money.

That's why they economically went into the hole. Detroit in 1950 was not anywhere near as bad as Detroit today because it had a huge and diverse population.

But when everyone took off for the suburbs, no one cares about the city anymore. Why? Because the city was poor. The city was home to the minorities.

Why care about the non-whites?

And that's exactly what happened.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #88
101. Well, it didn't just happen.
Your example of Detroit is a superb one and, in general, I agree with the premise of your OP and subsequent comments. The thing to remember though is the white flight didn't just happen, at least not in Detroit. I was a little girl so I only know generalities of the time but I understand that, while diverse, things were pretty bad for non-whites due, in large part, to an oppressive and abusive police force. Finally the breaking point was reached and the riots broke out. My family fled the city for 10 days and after returning things were pretty bad. My brother and I were robbed at knife-point for our milk money (we were 6 years old) and there was trouble like that all the time throughout the neighborhood (and rest of the city no doubt). My family moved soon after due to the near constant threat of violence. Sadly Detroit has never recovered.

I have found a near utopian solution for this particular choice of urban or rural. I live in a small city surrounded by lots of rural communities. The city is bustling and the neighborhoods are pretty tight-knit. And those who bring the fabulous goods to the area farmers' market (which is wildly popular) are practically hailed as heroes. It's too bad what we have here can't just be replicated across the country as it really is the best of both worlds.

Julie
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
79. Not "everyone" took off for the suburbs.
Always hated them.
Inner City or The Woods for me, and many others.
I wouldn't last a week anywhere that has a Home Owners Association.


"Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same."
---Malvina Reynolds

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Dr Morbius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. The suburb?
Because they actually have suburbs in other countries.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Not at the extent of American suburbia...
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Bill219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
9. My wife blames it on certain TV shows
She specifically singles out Dallas and Dynasty as the shows that taught us that greed is good
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. And another....Family Ties.
Which educated an entire generation of young people to believe that it was cool to worship Nixon and the free market money machien....just like the caricature played by MJ Fox.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. That's so true. Don't you think Tucker Carlson pretends to be like MJ Fox's character.
That whole Reaganite/yuppy feel?!
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
81. My impression was that being a lil Nixonite was portrayed as a huge character flaw
Or even a set of them and Alex overcoming those flaws and being more like the rest of his family was the whole point of all of his lessons.

He was a "good guy" despite his conservatisim (rebellion from hippie parents) not because of it that I can recall.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
42. How about the Beverly Hill Billies or Leave It To Beaver?
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
57. I actually saw a special following your wife's logic
They compared shows through the decades.

The Honeymooners - flat
Dick Van Dyke - 2 bedroom house
Brady Bunch/Bill Cosby Show - Nice homes but nothing over the top

Then all of the Mansions, Dynasty, Dallas, Fresh Prince of Bel Air.

It is an interesting take.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Black and white aerial photography?
:shrug:
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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Houses?
I wish I had a house.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
85. Don't fret.
They will be giving away houses in the suburbs in a few years as the cost of energy continues to rise.
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Maccagirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. I've been told all my life that that photo symbolized
The Great American Dream.

Why do you hate tradition American values so much?????

:sarcasm:
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. It was something about a snake....
....some chick, and this apple.

The fundamental depravity of mankind has been around as long as....mankind.

And it's not going away any time soon. You have to work around it, use it against itself, but never ignore it.

Any political philosophy counting on the angel beneath us all is doomed, or worse.

That's the genius of many of the essays in The Federalist Papers
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. And of course, this sums it up perfectly...
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. So the problem began with decent housing for returning GIs?
And not beliefs like "magic underwear" was a covenant with God and recently renounced beliefs that non-whites were sub-human? Because me-first attitudes towards "salvation" are every bit as selfish and disgusting.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yes, that and the 'me first' ways of those who refused to be
content in tenements, filth, disease and crime, all delivered at corrupt, inflated prices. These bastards, wanting a roof of their own, are far more despicable than say, those who exploit them, than the slumlords and the sweatshop owners. Damn them for not remaining in their place!
Oh, yes, it was not the Masters of San Simeon and Kykuit, but the Masters of the 3 bedroom ranch houses, that ruined this nation, all reasonable people know this. Of course.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Right.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 PM by Drunken Irishman
So you condone the uncontrollable sprawling of American cities?

You condone this:



How is that reasonable living? It's called excessive living and millions of Americans do it every single day without any regard for the future. They're content on building a home all the way out in the boonies, cut off from the economic center of the region (generally the downtown core), which then forces them to drive to every goddamn place, which hurts the environment and instills the mindset that we can't live without our car. And without our car, we can't live without oil.

Yeah, real reasonable.

It's not a coincidence American values sharply shifted the second white Americans bolted for their suburban safe havens in the 1950s and 1960s. It's all part of the problem. Instead of working to fix those filthy cities, they left them to the people who couldn't afford to leave for the suburbs. You know, the real poor - the minorities and blue collar whites who still make up a majority of our cities today.

Then as the population center changed from urban to suburban, the political demographics changed, as well. The rich white folk had all the power and the money. They had the better schools and better parks and better roads. They had the safer communities with more funding for their police forces and those individuals who lived in the city and couldn't afford to leave, were left to rot by the selfish assholes who'd rather piss on those city folk than actually help them out.

That's why suburban dickwads tend to vote Republican. They don't want anyone disturbing their own little reality and that means by showing them the true blight of inner-city America.

Well I can tell you that for a good part of the early 20th Century, inner-city America flourished. Sure, you had the ghettos and the struggles - but it was a community that often worked together to help the entire areas a whole. Now it's not about that. Now the sense of community doesn't go beyond your own piss-poor subdivision.

They don't care WHAT happens in Detroit and Cleveland and every other rust-belt city. All they care about is that they're not impacted by the problems facing those areas.

They're not impacted by it because they moved from it. Out of sight, out of mind.

They're safe in their gated community, twenty miles from the closest poor area.

And generally, though not always, that's just fine with them.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. See-that there shit is called "bait and switch"...
You show me post-war housing of under 1800 sq. ft. with direct road connection to employment centers and then equate that with Mc Mansions and hyper-consumerism that you later show photos of.

Actually, your "economic center" is horseshit. Offices, which themselves are buggy whips in light of telecommuting, proliferate in city centers but actual work can't afford city rents.

I'm sorry you consider my Dad, whom most consider a member of the "greatest Generation" as a WWII vet, a "selfish asshole" for moving from an inner-city housing project to a private home when he could afford it-I thought that was the idea behind war-time housing.

As to your reference to "suburban dickwads" "tending to vote republican" bite my ass-my family has a LONG Democratic and labor history.

You take an entire bunch of stupid assumptions and try to prove your obscure point, and yet merely prove how narrow and biased your own viewpoint is.

Grow up.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. It's not a bait and switch at all...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:30 PM by Drunken Irishman
Go re-read the post and you'll probably see that I'm right here.

Let me help you:

You want to know what started the me first attitude in America?

I said started. Started - not that it was the only cause of our problems.

The beginning of sprawl in America dates back to post-war development which was not developed along the traditional grid system we saw in urban America. And your employment centers were few and far between. Look at the photo and find a decent commercialized center there. I see something that looks like a church...and then? Maybe a school?

The ultimate idea of affordable housing developed away from the city isn't necessarily evil. However, the way they developed the idea has led us down the path of suburban sprawl.

Compare suburban neighborhoods built pre-war and shortly after the war to the housing developments of the 1950s and you'll see what I mean. They were detached from most of the city, had little connection to public transit, were developed along massive highways and encouraged the usage of the automobile (which was even further pushed by the creation of massive freeways which often went right through historical and established urban neighborhoods just to so the white folk could get out of the city as fast as possible).



Yeah, that's just awesome, isn't it?

That was the creation of the Chrysler Freeway in Detroit.



Beyond that, my economic center point isn't horseshit. There are suburban offices complex (often sprawling and disconnected from any form of public transportation - which again requires the need to DRIVE) - but a great deal of American urban areas (both suburban and urban) have their economic center in the downtown area.

That's why, you know, they have all those tall office buildings. ;)

In fact, a great deal of these cities balloon in population during the day.

And your father wasn't responsible for the problem, he only reinforced the problem. As do those who continue to move further and further outward into the suburban mess.

As for my comment, I stand by it. Do you not agree that most who live in suburban America tend to be Republican?

Certainly by a wider number than Republicans in inner-city America.

So yeah, the beginning selfish nature of our society began with the create of sprawl. Not necessarily the idea of suburban America (that was created a few decades before...). However, once the sprawl began, we didn't look back.

And because of it, we've created a monster that we can't control anymore.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #45
93. That air pollution in the top pic is one example of why people left the cities.
If you lived near a mill or foundry, you'd want to move, too.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. do you really think
that all the city dwelling people give a rats ass about what goes on in suburban or rural America? "suburban dickwads" niiiiccceee.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Yeah...because all the money goes there...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
77. I understand your point but in a country where there is unlimited cheap land
and cheap personal transportation it was inevitable.


Your pictures could also be an answer to the question "Where did America's water crises start".

Just a few decades ago everyone having their own manicured park as a part of the home was unheard of.

Now drought stricken cities see 40% of their water going to maintain individual parks known as 'back yards'.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. The problem began when we decided to mass-support sprawl.
You can excuse it away all you want, but it's led us down a path that has hurt our country. We've regressed greatly since WWII in that regard. Why do you think obesity is so high today than it was back when your parents (or grandparents) were growing up? Because these communities are built around the car.

That has led to a dependency on oil like never before seen in this country's history, further pollution that is hampering the enivornment and the loss of land due to uncontrollable sprawl.

All because Americans wanted bigger yards and bigger homes.

That's the epitome of selfishness.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. or
maybe the obesity is linked to people moving into citys and not living in rural settings and working on farms etc...instead they sit their fat asses in cubicles and push paper all day, or tick away at computers, instead of working physically for a living, and since they moved off the farm and into the cities, that led to the creation of mega corporate farms to feed these city dwellers who dont really produce anything except a larger carbon foot print, they just consume and consume and consume. everything has to be trucked into them to feed them and clothe them, and they got so smart they outsourced almost all their jobs to other countries, thereby tying themselves further to the evil black fossil fuels....
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Your point would have merit if city living was a mid-20th Century development...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:44 PM by Drunken Irishman
But it isn't.

So yeah...no.

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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. whatever
keep on keeping on city dweller, always the consumer and never the producer but you know allll about what the causes of evil are!!
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yup...
You know exactly what I'm talking about.

I live in an urban area. My neighborhood isn't a ton of highrises or apartments stacked on each other - no, we live in single family homes built in the 1940s. The difference is that my neighborhood actually encourages walking. I can walk to get my hair cut. I can walk to the corner store. I can walk to school. I can walk to the park. I can walk to the central core of my neighborhood, which has shops.

And up until I changed jobs, I could ride my bike to my job without any hindrance.

Let's see you do all that in this neighborhood:



lol

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volvoblue Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. I would have posted a pic of Atlas Shrugged
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. And the overextension of a highway system and the use of cars rather than expanding public
transportation
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I'm glad you get where I'm going...
It was all down hill when we started emphasizing the car rather than the foot.

So many American cities and neighborhoods in suburbs (which suggests this isn't an anti-suburb post, rather an anti-sprawl post) pre-1940 are awesome in their setup. They're walkable. They're community connected. They're generally ideal. Even those located in suburban cities that grew only a generation or so behind a typical inner-city.

But when we developed the highway and expanded out to the boonies, creating the idea of subdivision living, we really laid the foundation for the type of society we have now.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. ahhh yeah, so then we become inherently married to oil. Interesting.
I think you're right.
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DebJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
37. the idealization of capitalism
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. The creation of the Stepford mom suburbs?! n/t
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
48. Here's another interesting point about suburban living...
http://books.google.com/books?id=ip09QJaFaiQC&pg=PA185&...

The lack of fair housing in suburban America kept minorities OUT of those communities - allowing inner-city America to continue to deteriorate.

Again, that selfish attitude. Why should we have fair housing in suburban America? It was legal segregation!

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handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. We are on the same page
my job causes me to move around the United States to a different county within a different state every three weeks. I have been doing this for 6 years and have seen most everything there is to see in the way of neighborhood development and you are correct in your theories. I am sure you have seen "Searching for Whitopia" by Rich Benjamin, and if you haven't he talks a lot about the disconnect and peoples' ideas.

The proplem is that we have all (well for the most part) become disconnected from each other as a country and we have lost any "empathy" we had and this is what we need so desperately now. It is true; the people in their suburban gated communities cannot relate to the urbanites (and most of the time don't want to -even if they could) and too often people in the city don't have a clue what it is like to live in a rural area. Good post and good topic to think on
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marlakay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
49. Dr Spock
and parents that listened to him in the 50's & 60's....
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. Michael Moore on suburban paranoia.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
53. Y'all know what you haven't addressed...
1.(since you live in one) The cost of a single family house in a city. I can tell you that the cost of a brownstone in NYC or DC ain't cheap.

2.The wealth of blue collar jobs within the city that will support a single family in city single-family homes-or is it okay to commute FROM a city for a blue collar job?

3.When your perfect Democratic enclave (Salt Lake City) turned blue. Because I know you would never tell me my people sucked and were Republicans because they aren't in a city if your city didn't support Democratic ideals overwhelmingly...
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. Also you fail to address
diversity OUTSIDE of cities. If it were merely "white flight" than suburbs would in fact be all (not "mostly") white. Tell me what you honestly think of suburban minorities. Or would you not disparage a minority for what you disparage a white person? Because I'm betting they got here for the same reason my dad did-not because they dislike people of their own color.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. You do have a point about pricing...
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 12:22 AM by Drunken Irishman
However, to suggest there are no affordable neighborhoods in the city is just ridiculous. The reality as of today is that a great deal of people know they can get more for their buck out in the burbs than in the city.

And that's what they want. They want the bigger home. Even if they don't have a large family. My cousin just moved out of Salt Lake City into a large suburban home in the far-flungs of the valley.

I thought the move was ridiculous and I told them as much. They wanted the bigger home. They wanted the bigger lifestyle - regardless of who is hurt by the endless sprawl their demand creates.

Frankly, how many people who live in the city actually commute outside the city? Most of the jobs, whether blue collar or white collar, are traditionally in the urban areas. Sometimes you're right, there is a commute.

But again, it isn't necessarily about the potential of the commute but the forcing of a commute.

Most those who live in the suburbs commute, by car, to their job. They can't take public transit because it's not adequate and they often can't just up and walk from their front steps to their work because their subdivision is so large and disconnected from anything that it makes it impractical.

Is that fully the problem of those who live out there? Of course not. But how many people in suburban America are actually trying to change the landscape in their cities? Not enough, IMO and that's where the problem spreads and where they deserve the blame.

We should all want to make our communities better. I feel, and with sprawling development showing no signs of stopping anytime soon, I do not believe many of these people care to make their communities better outside of what is better for them.

They'll complain about the potential of a mix-used urban development - but will sit back and watch as this is created:



That would never happen inside the city limits of Salt Lake City.

Of course, that doesn't mean we don't have our own struggles. I don't like the suburbanization of American cities. Unfortunately, since the 70s, a great deal of cities have destroyed their link to the past to keep up with the suburbs. It's horrid.

But I also believe most cities are doing something productive to curb sprawl in their limits.

You can't say the same about suburban cities. They promote sprawl because it helps their economic bottom line. They get money and they don't care if the zoning calls for a huge shopping center that sits in the middle of a 2,000 stall parking lot.

Which goes to your last point - if Salt Lake were a Republican city content on developing an urban and sustainable, walkable city, I would have no problem with their ideological leanings. In fact, I would suggest those ideological leanings are in stark contrast to the typical Republican mindset.

But that isn't the case.

It's not a coincidence that the most liberal areas in even conservative states are traditionally cities and not suburbs.

And those that aren't, like maybe Las Vegas and Phoenix, have a suburban pattern that is ultimately hurting America more than it's helping.

Now maybe I was a bit harsh in my original post - but the point still stands. This country has changed greatly since the 1950s and I think we can all agree it hasn't been for the better. Is it all linked to suburban sprawl? Of course not. But, in my opinion, a great deal of it is because it pushed to further isolate communities and populations.

Prior to the 50s, in a great deal of America, economic classes cohabited together. That's even the case in Salt Lake City. You can find lower class homes a street over from fairly nice middle class homes. They're not isolated.

Of course, there are poor areas and rich areas that do isolate themselves from the other parts of the city and that is an ever continued fight. With that said, it's not nearly at the point you see in the suburbs.

As I posted up-thread, suburban housing often didn't abide by fair housing rules. That created a legal segregation of our society and it continues today.

Look at Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City is about 70% white. West Jordan, Utah, about 20 miles south-west of downtown SLC and shown in the sprawl photo above of that shopping center, is nearly 90% white.

Now Salt Lake is lucky in the sense that a great deal of our suburbs developed prior to 1950. Midvale, Murray, Taylorsville, South Salt Lake, Holladay, and in some instances, West Valley, were developed not necessarily with the sprawl mindset.

Much of Midvale looks similar to Salt Lake. It also has a downtown of its own.





That's Midvale. It's not perfect and it does have its flaws - but it's also not consumed by sprawl.

That's where I'm coming from. A great deal of those who live in suburban America don't care about sprawl. They see nothing wrong with it. They see nothing wrong with long commutes. They see nothing wrong with massive freeways and endless twisting suburban roads. They see nothing wrong with vast parking lots and suburban shopping centers off a busy highway that you can't walk to at any point.

They just don't care.

And that fits right into the narrative that we've lost our sense of community in America. We've lost our sense of caring.

It's about doing what is right for you and not necessarily what is right for most.

Is the first established suburban dwellers responsible for this? Of course not. But the fact we didn't deviate course from when that photo was taken - in fact, we got worse - shows me that it was the start of the problem.

And that problem has taken us to the point where suburban living is now become a liability for most Americans - not a luxury.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. We're gettin ' closer...but no warm, friendly showers yet...
That retail area you show as a problem is actually a solution you don't get.That same complex in a city would be your ideal-a wealth of value priced consumer items within walking distance of each other if not a quarter million. But a quarter million may be within an easy (automotive) commute,

I live in a "city" of 25K- there are 8 cities in my state with populations of over 10K, but under 2 million in the state. Your idea of a city barely exists here. 50 miles south is Boston which I'm sure you approve of but ain't for me.

Where I came from there is what you call "sprawl" but we just called home. Cities are of course more democratic...they may have a million apartments but just a thousand penthouses. Out here we just have acres and republicans tend to have many and democrats few. So a couple of small housing areas need to balance tons of large estates. Yet my state (NH) voted Obama with all our flaws. How'd your state do?

I've lived in both the suburbia you loathe and a city you would consider a small town as compared to your urban delight. And the difference is while I pity you, I would never judge you.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #58
67. So did you like the suburbs?

I grew up on a farm and have lived in both suburbia and the city.

I loved the farm. I like small towns. I enjoy the city. And I absolutely loathed the suburbs.

Partly because everywhere I went I got crap for being a hillbilly. But I also could not take the loss of freedom. Too loud. Too fast. Don't do this. Don't do that.

And the people obviously love it that way. Of course, they were solidly Republican. So it's no surprise that they embrace a police state.

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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
63. Levittown
and you have a damn good point.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
65. You Are Dead On 100% Correct
Suburbs destroy the soul of a society. People are given the illusion of independence because they associate isolation with independence when they're even more dependent. In the 'burbs, you are dependent on your car, the roads, other drivers, etc. It also breeds tribalist thinking and xenophobia, no other people are allowed in our enclave.

Our migration to the suburbs explains the difference between us as a nation and other industrialized nations. It explains why we're eager to go to war, why we consume so much more energy, why we have the mountain of personal debt, why we don't have single payer, and why our education system is failing.

The suburbs are destroying America.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. So everyone should live in the city?
Or on a farm?

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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. People Should Live In Spaces Designed for Human Beings Not Cars
See Europe and Japan for examples of how to do planning.
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Stuckinthebush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. So that means rural America is out
What about suburbs with commuter access to city centers?

Or suburbs that have commercial centers within them?

I don't think that suburbs are the problem, it is transportation that is the problem.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Rural America Is Designed for Agriculture
Neither people nor cars.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #68
90. It's not about living in the city...
It's about developing suburbs so they're not so isolated and disconnected to the point where growth becomes far too homogeneous.

Sprawl is a cancer in this country. It is wrecking our environment. It is leading to water shortages. It is continuing the perception we need an automobile to survive - which continues our dependency on oil.

That type of mindset has hurt this country.

Are cities perfect? No. But they take up less space, offer more traveling options (whether it's public transit or the foot) and more importantly, don't isolate each community from one another. They're all connected.

In sprawling suburbs, it isn't rare to see one subdivision sit in the middle of a vast field for years until it's developed. Even then, though, there is hardly any connection because the streets rarely sync up.

That doesn't even get into the whole issue with being isolated from other aspects of life - whether it's social activities, educational tools or economic tools (jobs, shopping, etc).
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
70. Horse-hockey.
I've lived in both cities and suburbia.

Both have their good points and bad.

You're over-simplifying to justify a personal hate.
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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. I've lived in all three.
And to tell the truth, Suburbia is designed around people driving.


I don;t think the OP is justifying anything, just getting people to think about how our nation turned. We COULD have built Suburbia with public transportation, but the powers that be didn't. It's a great OP that deserves thought instead of saying it's about hate.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Disagree.
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CBR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #76
92. I have lived in small rural towns, suburbs and city apartments and
the suburbs were the worst by far.

I agree with the OP.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
89. This isn't an anti-suburban post. It's an anti-sprawl post.
Sprawl, unfortunately, is what you see in that picture. Traditional and original suburbs were not sprawling cancerous masses.

They were very similar to American inner-cities, but maybe not as urban. It was the perfect mix of urban and suburban living.

Look up the term streetcar suburb. They often were pre-1950s. That, IMO, is how we should have developed suburban America.

Not this way...

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DatManFromNawlins Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
72. Yeah, because obviously the suburbs are what created urban ghettos
Get over yourself.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
74. James Madison. (n/t)
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progdog Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
75. Television commercials started it.
n/t
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
80. Good Post.
Thought provoking...check

Well illustrated....check

Ruffled Feathers....check

K&R
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era veteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
82. Clinton?
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
84. The suburbs are doomed anyway.
The ever increasing cost of energy alone will kill the suburbs.
Couple that with the decline in Middle Class wages.
Who will be able to heat and cool a 2000 sq ft house in 10 years, let alone drive to work? :shrug:
.
.
.
If you own property in the suburbs, sell NOW for whatever you can get.

I loved the urban neighborhoods in old New Orleans.
Shotgun houses, no A/C, public transportation.
The houses opened on to the street, with real front porches.
People sat on them in the evenings and talked to each other.
There was a much deeper sense of community.

Air Conditioning + TV had as much to do with the death of "Community" as the suburbs.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
87. DI, that is one hell of a post. You have made everyone think.
And I agree with you. It separated us. It made us abandon instead of fix. It made us different from them. It made them different from us. It made us claw and scratch to make ourselves different from our cookie cutter neighbors. Now we don't even know our neighbors. We drive endlessly to jobs in teh cities and then back, right into our garages and close the doors behind us. No need to converse with anybody.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
91. WWII vets returned to a country praising them as gods
They were told they could do no wrong, were given free education, housing loans, a booming economy thanks to the destruction of manufacturing and infrastructure in Europe, Asia and North Africa. They were held up as saviors of the free world.

Human nature and the corrosive effects of Capitalism did the rest.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
95. Suburbs are fucking evil and anti-social abominations.
Sprawl is ugly, monotonous, bad for the environment, and socially isolating.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
97. I am 44 and I noticed it in the 80's with the Reagan era!
-Crushing the unions
-Pushing big businesses
-Anti-government
-Ignoring the Aids Crisis (America could have been in the forefront of preventing millions of deaths but Reagan ignored it because it was deemed a gay disease)
-Rise of the Christian Right and their marriage with the Republican Party
-War on Drugs (Us against them)
-Attack on Rap


There's more...please feel free to add
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
98. I already know, thankyou. Suburban sprawl bna,
"white flight."
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
99. K&R
You are correct..
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MgtPA Donating Member (390 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
100. Levittown!! (right down the street from me)
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
102. The Phrase "Me First Generation"
is normally construed to refer to an attitude of entitlement, which I really don't think came out of Levittown. And it's usually dated to about a decade later.

There are certainly many affluent self-centered people in the suburbs, but since people can live where they want, I believe this is the effect rather than the cause.
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KeyWester Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
103. I started a thread on this very issue..
and didn't get a single reply. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Congrats on your thread.
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amb123 Donating Member (764 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:31 AM
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104. Little Houses (Malvina Reynolds)
Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky tacky
Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes all the same,
Theres a pink one & a green one
And a blue one & a yellow one
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses
All went to the university
Where they were put in boxes
And they came out all the same
And there's doctors & lawyers
And business executives
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course
And drink their martinis dry
And they all have pretty children
And the children go to school,
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university
Where they are put in boxes
And they come out all the same.

And the boys go into business
And marry & raise a family
In boxes made of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same,
Theres a pink one & a green one
And a blue one & a yellow one
And they are all made out of ticky tacky
And they all look just the same.

__________

Ms Reynolds: "My mother and father were driving South from San Francisco through Daly City when my mom got the idea for the song. She asked my dad to take the wheel, and she wrote it on the way to the gathering in La Honda where she was going to sing for the Friends Committee on Legislation. When Time Magazine (I think, maybe Newsweek) wanted a photo of her pointing to the very place, she couldn't find those houses because so many more had been built around them that the hillsides were totally covered."
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sohndrsmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 07:25 AM
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105. Hm... doesn't look like the reservation... oh, right. But...
how did the odd sense of entitlement of "me first" simply override (and basically annihilate) any sense of basic respect for those who could, can, actually and accurately say, "I was here first"?

Oh heck, never mind...
I always get like this, mildly crotchety and ambivalent on July 4... torn between watching fireworks and doing a rain dance (I generally do/celebrate both <g> ). As awestruck as I am by our founders and the history of this country as a result, it's always tempered and bittersweet because - well, just because... but that's just me...
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