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rhombus Donating Member (678 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:28 PM
Original message
NY Times: Up to 300,000 public school jobs could be cut
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 09:38 PM by rhombus
School districts around the country ... are warning hundreds of thousands of teachers that their jobs may be eliminated in June.

... their usual sources of revenue state money and local property taxes have been hit hard by the recession. In addition, federal stimulus money earmarked for education has been mostly used up this year.
...
Districts in California have pink-slipped 22,000 teachers. Illinois authorities are predicting 17,000 public school job cuts. And New York has warned nearly 15,000 teachers that their jobs could disappear in June.

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan estimated that state budget cuts imperiled 100,000 to 300,000 public school jobs. In an interview on Monday, he said the nation was flirting with education catastrophe.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/education/21teachers....


The stimulus is running out fast. That's for sure. Unemployment is likely to rise this year with so many local governments laying off teachers, cops, firefighters, etc.

Joe Stiglitz said he couldn't understand how the Obama team could design a stimulus bill that seeks to hire temporary construction workers while ignoring the larger problem of local and state employees like teachers who have a huge reservoir of institutional knowledge. The stimulus seems to be inverted.


This is why we should be pushing the White House, Pelosi and Reid to support the Local Jobs for America Act, which will send immediate and direct aid to state and local governments.
http://edlabor.house.gov/blog/2010/03/local-jobs-for-am...

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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. meanwhile our president and congress have 100's of billions for war and destruction nt
Edited on Tue Apr-20-10 09:32 PM by msongs
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. And to add insult to injury, many of the top teachers will be cut
The husband of a friend of ours has taught in a grade school for 5 years. 2 of those 5 years, he was teacher of the year for district. Yet, they had to cut positions and had less seniority than most and was cut. This is one of the things that piss me off with unions. Not only is the school district worse off due to cuts, they are also forced to cut top teachers and keep crap ones.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. your anger at the unions is misplaced..get pissed at those at the top of the pile..those that have
Edited on Wed Apr-21-10 12:11 AM by flyarm
hired the fuckers who pushed to bail out the fuckers who destroyed our economy and keep illegal wars going!

While forcing forclosures on the little people!..and in turn make state and local tax bases go down..and lack of jobs makes local and state tax bases go down..considerably.

And also the people you should be pissed at .. hire incompetent people to run education for our nation on the federal level, who have no business in the jobs they hold..who are in turn owned by the very people that are running schools for adminstrators that are mostly military and pentagon people..

Do not think this isn't in the plans for edcuation.

And psssss.. hint..our military is running dry.......how would you do a draft without a draft???? Fill the public schools with military adminstrators and get rid of good teachers????????

do a little reading up on the subject..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...


How Eli Broad alumni are greatly involved in the corporate takeover of education.
Edited on Mon Apr-05-10 10:38 PM by madfloridian
Kansas City, Delaware, and Detroit are often recently mentioned by education bloggers. They are in the news because of their leaders who are alumni of the Broad Superintendent Academy.

Broad Alumni Making It Big in Corporate Takeover of American Education


Eli Broad's Superintendents Academy is paying big dividends for the corporate takeover of American education and the crushing of the teaching profession. In Kansas City a plan developed by Broad's lawyers and Broad Alum, John Covington, will close half of Kansas City Schools with large numbers of corporate charter replacements.


More about the closing of schools in Kansas City by a Broad superintendent.

Broad Academy Alum, John Covington ('08), Shuts Half of Kansas City Schools


PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH..LOOK INTO MADFLORIDIANS JOURNALS AND HANNAH BELLS JOURNALS ..they have covered what is really going on extensively.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read up ..it is not the Teachers unions causing this!

This is planned and being executed by our government! And our political leaders! And their corporate masters!

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hannah%20Bell

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/...

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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. That kind of changed the topic
Just because someone else does something stupid, it does not mean the fact that schools are dropping TOP teachers and keep the bottom teachers due to union rules on seniority is not stupid as shit.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Why is it stupid?
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Really?
Think of it this way:

You own your own business and have 10 employees. You have to let 3 of them go. Would your sole criteria be based on years of service?

The simple fact is that people perform jobs at varying levels of efficiency and it is not directly correlated with years of service.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. The fact is that teachers have contracts negotiated for them by their unions
and they also are protected by state laws regulating collective bargaining and tenure.

Teachers are also public servants, unlike the employees in your fictitious small business.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. So you admit the model set up some teacher's unions is BAD for students
You admit that children SUFFER as a result of this business model. That is all I wanted. Thanks!
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I admitted nothing you are claiming
Children suffer when experienced teachers are forced out and inexperienced (but cheaper) temps replace them.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. I hope you have more confidence when it comes to yourself
I have about 9-10 years service in income taxes. I can comfortably compare my talents with my coworkers. First of all, there are people with more overall years of service that I know I am more talented than (and, thus, I offer a lot more). Additionally, how do you handle people with more years at a given district, but less overall experience. Say I have 25 years experience, with the last 3 being in my current district (prior experience is out of state) and a cut needs to be made. If the person I am up against has 7 years total experience, all in the same district, who would you cut?

Who would actually get cut in most situations? Do they EVER even look at ACTUAL quality rather than assigning arbitrary things like "x number of years is more than y, so you have more experience and, therefore, are a better teacher?"
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Teachers with more experience ARE better
That's a no brainer.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Wow. Facts with no support.
How can anyone refute that?

Actually, more experience means they are lazy knowing they cannot lose their jobs. It is a no brainer.

See, I can do it too.
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smitra Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Nonsense. In teaching, experience is what makes you better on the job.
The years dealing with a variety of students, at different levels of competence, and trying to make sure that each student gets something of value added to his/her preparation of life, is what makes a better (and the best) teachers. The corporate model - where someone who just graduated college apparently has the best skills for the job - does not apply.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. And I want to know what profession that would be
Where the fresh out of college employee has the best skills for the job.
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smitra Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Some people in IT (info. technology, not income tax) CLAIM that. n/t
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. A short list:
Any research scientist (w/ grad degree)

Any professor

Inspired writers

Idealistic statesmen-to-be.

Basically the cream of the crop.

Paradigm shifters are often outsiders.
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smitra Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. "Basically the cream of the crop. Paradigm shifters are often outsiders."
Which implies that the AVERAGE young scientist/professor/whatever is not going to be turning the organization into something spectacular, and needs the mentoring of their seniors.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Turnover.
A professional that STAYS productive is valuable. But I don't think people should be punished for their youth, nor assumed to be incompetent.

A senior scientist is excellent, but it is rare to find one willing to admit they've been wrong 20 years.

Why is it different for teachers? After teaching the same unit for 20 years, I'd wager I wouldn't be so happy to start using post-its as a literacy lesson.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Except that you don't teach the same unit for 20 years
Curriculum evolves. And, more significantly, the instruction changes. I still teach kids that 9x9 is 81 but I sure teach it differently today than I did in 1980.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I appreciate that.
But I don't agree that it is easier for an old teacher than a new.

Or that a senior teacher is necessarily more skilled.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. Easier? teaching is never easy.
If we wanted easy, we wouldn't be teachers.

Come do my job for a week and tell me how easy it is. When you fall on your face you'll whine that you need more time to develop. That's the point and until you've done the job you won't understand that.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. I teach.
I teach 8th graders whose average household income is under 28,000. I teach 160 kids. I run two after school programs. 100% of my kids are ELLS or former ELLs.

I know just how hard teaching is because I'm a teacher.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Except it works.
Teaching is a high burnout job, and put 10 years in the system, you've produced such a corpus of worksheets and units that any human would be inflexible.

You DO gain experience over the years, I will not disagree with you there. But experience is oftentimes juxtaposed with energy. It does not need to be, but it often is.


I believe you are dancing around the fact that selectively FIRING lower-paid employees is better than FIRING other people. I can say a lot more on this, but I gotta teach tomorrow!
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smitra Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Firing any teacher, at any level, should be unacceptable.
Firing younger teachers implies that you are reducing the potential of the next generation for that school/school district. And yes, more experienced teachers cannot continue for ever. But...and I base this on my own careful observations over the years ... most people who go into teaching hardly do so for the money. It is very often a 'labor of love' - even after you have put in years. Most 'older' teachers are still dedicated to the profession, and continue to do the best they can. Yes, there are undoubtedly some 'bad apples' but there will be a few of those in every barrel. The alternative ... give some ADMINISTRATORS the power to decide who gets fired when budget cuts occur ... is FAR WORSE. Recall that there is a whole philosophy behind the concept of tenure in academia - the security to speak the truth to power without being afraid of being rendered homeless.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Point System?
Seniority + Years Progress in Student Scores + Professional Development Attended + Professional Decorum/Subjective = "Value Quotient"?

It could be weighted to unions, to central control, to whatever. But I think seniority and achievement AND willingness to adapt should be considered.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. Inflexible? One of the central tenets of teaching is "monitor and adjust"
that means we constantly monitor our student understanding and if it's lacking, we adjust our lesson to make it clearer and reach the students who are struggling. No two classes are the same and flexibility is key.

Honestly, have you ever taught? The answer is no, right? But, because you've been a student, you think you know all about my job even though you've seen only a slice of it. It's like seeing a movie -- you see the nice picture on the screen not the whole movie set. The video lasts a couple of hours yet takes weeks/months/years to create. Except that the "movie" analogy falls short in that the movie is set (unless the director does a special edition). Lessons constantly evolve but, unless you've done the job, you have no clue about all that goes into them.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. And teachers hired 10 years ago
do not necessarily keep up with modern trends in education much less CONTENT area study.

Again, this is a choice between two evils. I will not submit and say that keeping senior teachers is categorically better than keeping new ones.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. And they don't necessary don't...you can't make a statement like that.
Teachers are professionals and they're in the learning business. Most of the teachers I work with are constantly learning and adapting.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #70
83. I disagree
Ongoing professional development is mandated in every state in the country. And I would add that most of the PD I've had as a teacher is better than most if the training I had as an undergrad.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. I disagree :)
Most of the PD I've had has been a stupendous waste of time. But I've had no undergrad training in education. Only a grad program that was part of an alt-cert fast track. That program was awful too.



MR
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. 30 years experience is all the evidence I need
Teaching is a profession that most enter underqualified. Nothing can prepare you for the demands of the job. It takes years to perfect the craft of teaching. It's a myth that teachers are born or that a fresh out of college (or in the case of TFA, a fresh out of a quick couple week training program) teacher can waltz in and do a better job than any who have come before her.

Lazy people don't stay in the teaching profession. You absolutely cannot be a minimally effective teacher and be lazy. In fact that's downright comical. So it's far more likely that a newcomer would be lazy and end up quitting after only a year or so because she lacks the work ethic necessary to be a good teacher.

This is the beginning of my third decade in education and I am just now hitting my stride. My best years are ahead of me. I'd like to forget some of the years behind me.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. It's hard to disagree with your position.
I hated the teaching fellows program which is a NYC parallel to TFA.

You are probably a teacher that cares, that succeeds (and fails, but learns), and one that is constantly learning new techniques. As you said, teaching is an art, and like art, it requires some inherent skill that is made more robust through practice, experience.

My opinion is that you are framing this as a do we save the young teachers or the old teachers (and I am aware that it is in reply)? I think the discussion ought to be more about how we can effectively judge teacher performance to make HR decisions.

At my school, there are a handful of senior teachers that have many letters in their file, do not follow procedure, are resistant to authority, and do not produce results in their teaching. How can it be justified to maintain their position when a young, inspired, and dedicated teacher is at risk? I am not referring to TFA "I'm going to law school in two years" recruits. I mean people like me who are in it for the long haul, but joined through an alt cert, and have not given up yet.



MR
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. And at my school there are more letters in the young teacher files
Just as in any profession, the ineffective employees must be terminated. That's so basic. And it's not impossible to terminate a senior teacher with tenure.

What angers me is that tenure is a multi year process and teachers don't get bad overnight. Every single one of the senior teachers you mention in your school have always struggled and been ineffective. Why are they still teaching? Why were they not non-renewed after their first bad year?
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Many do get bad overnight.
I did.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. I have never seen that happen
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #55
72. Nor I. I was being flippant.
You're right. But if a teacher throws up their hands, good bye! Let someone else do it.



Talk more later?



MR
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
58. Ironically, a friend of mine would claim different
Edited on Wed Apr-21-10 09:26 PM by joeglow3
She was at a Jesuit Middle School for lower income individuals with discipline problems for 3 years. She just transfered to a new middle school this year. They have NO detention and do little to handle the students. When the kids enter her class they tuck in their shirts and don't mess around, because they know she does not screw around. When they leave her class, they all pull their shirts out and become more unruly the further they get from her class.

She mentioned this at a staff meeting and said they need to add detention, with each teacher taking one day every 2 weeks. They other 9 teachers all refused to, as they all leave within 20-25 minutes of school getting out. The dedication she has shown to her class has manifasted itself in the results the students have provided in her class/testing. She says the majority of the teachers she works with have their lesson plans from years ago, many recycle their old tests/quizzes and simply go through the motions.

But, according to your logic, they ALL HAVE TO BE better teachers because they have been there longer. It is scary that, as a teacher, you are unable to realize the differences amongst all people (childrens and adults). I hope you don't stereotype your students and lump them all together like you do adults.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
62. More experience = laziness?
Wow. That is so stupid and insulting. Apparently you do not know any experienced teachers and have never seen the never-ending dedication they have to their professions. If you did, you wouldn't dream of making a blanket statement like that.

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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. But YOUR blanket statements are alright???
"all teachers with more experience are great and better than anyone with less experience."

Nice hypocrisy. You teach kids that, too?
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Where did I say that?
Do you always just make shit up?
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. So you agree more experience does NOT automatically equal better?
If so, then we are in agreement.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I never said this:
"all teachers with more experience are great and better than anyone with less experience." as you quoted me as saying. You're making shit up and then expecting me to agree with you. That is Republican technique and I'm too smart to fall for it.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Then by all means, please share your opinon on this.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Disagree
Does experience = skill?

There are some really, really bad teachers that are comfortable in their job security and use seniority to do less work. Seniority is only useful if it is used WITH performance to judge the value of a particular teacher.

In teaching, there is constantly new ideas and research coming out and young people tend towards more flexibility and willingness to accept change. A lot of this comes from not KNOWING about the art of teaching and being immersed in it. This is the TFA/TF model and it has shown massive results in my school!

That said, it takes about 3 years to make a competent teacher and a lifetime to make a perfect teacher. If a senior teacher is producing results, s/he should not be punished to favor younger teachers, but they are not inherently more skilled, nor more valuable.

Judge performance by student growth with a fair metric and then we'll talk.


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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
61. Where'd that come from?
The only business model, and I don't think P2B was talking about that, that is going to injure kids is the one cooked up by Arne "The Ass" Duncan and his corporate masters.

You've proven one thing, that's for sure. You don't have a clue.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
60. Years of service isn't the only criterion.
In this era of NCLB one must consider certifications, endorsements, and highly qualified status. One of our riffed teachers had a few more years of experience than I but didn't have the highly qualified status. I do. If they went only by years in, I'd be the one looking for a job.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. Teachers should know what they teach.
A biology teacher that can't achieve certification in biology is pretty ridiculous. The NYS certification exam was basic to the point of insult.

Endorsements are from education schools and so are nothing new. Teachers need masters.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. I meant the endorsement on our certificate
that says so many subject hours in the content area and/or passing an exam, depending on the area. I have both, she had neither. I totally agree that the teacher needs to know the content area. We do kids a disservice if we don't.
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golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. That is standard operating procedure
Edited on Wed Apr-21-10 02:44 AM by golfguru
Workers with least seniority always get cut first.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Because the higher paid teachers are always crap?
Is that what you are implying?

Or do you even know what you're talking about?
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. No, that is not what I am saying.
Why do some people ALWAYS find the most negative and insulting interpretation of ANY post?

I can play that game though. Are you saying the newest teachers are automatically the worst and they deserve to go? Do they deserve to get fired because they popped out of their mom 5 years later than someone else and had the misfortune to enter the workforce later?

What I am saying is for someone to get teacher of the year 2 out of 5 years is probably one of your top teachers. Certainly not someone you would put at the top of the chopping block. No matter how you interpret it the government made our schools worse by wasting money elsewhere and forcing the cuts and the unions made them even worse by forcing top tier teachers to leave by using years of service as the sole criteria.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You started out by saying "to add insult to injury"
So don't lecture ME about what you believe I am implying. In fact I am not implying anything because I know for a fact that not every seasoned veteran teacher is incompetent and needs to retire; and not every new teacher is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It's also true that those seasoned veterans cost more than the new teachers. And we do know that districts are encouraging older teachers to retire, and NOT because they are ineffective, but because they are expensive.

That's the current reality. This actually isn't about competence at all; it's about money.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. If it is about money, why are the cuts based solely on tenure?
In their Missouri district, the cuts were SOLELY on years of service. Thus, they cut the CHEAPEST teachers. Therefore it was about NEITHER competence NOR money. It was solely about years of service which is a HUGE disservice to our children.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. The cuts are not based on tenure, they are based on seniority.
Tenure and seniority are two different things. As another poster already told you, that is SOP in a union shop.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Now you are arguing semantics.
I don't care if you call it "pile of dog shit." The simple fact is that what was best for the kids was NOT EVEN CONSIDERED. Thus, why should I grant an ounce of credibility the next time they tell me they need raises to ensure "the kids get the best, most quality teachers?"
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The best teachers are the ones with experience
That is true in any profession. It's delusional to claim otherwise.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I strongly disagree with you
I know for a fact there are people I work with who have anywhere from 1-25 years more experience than me who are NOT as good of workers as I am. They work fewer hours, gab "around the water cooler" a LOT during the day and do not have near the technical knowledge I do (I work in Corporate income tax). Fortunately, my supervisors also recognize this and reward me accordingly (in pay and promotions).

I am sorry you think aging is the only thing that makes you a better employee.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. You are applying a corporate model to educaton and that doesn't work.
Apples and oranges.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. You CANNOT really believe that.
So, do ALL teachers graduate college and enter the profession with the EXACT SAME qualifications and abilities?

According to your logic, it HAS to be true, because otherwise a top candidate with 2 years experience would be better than a bottom candidate with 3 years experience.

Seriously, I wish I could so easily accept something so absurd.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Your assumptions are what is absurd
Here - Homework:


The Blueberry Story: The teacher gives the businessman a lesson

If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldnt be in business very long!

I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife.

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the Best Ice Cream in America.

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging knowledge society. Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement!

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance.

As soon as I finished, a womans hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload.

She began quietly, We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream.

I smugly replied, Best ice cream in America, Maam.

How nice, she said. Is it rich and smooth?

Sixteen percent butterfat, I crowed.

Premium ingredients? she inquired.

Super-premium! Nothing but triple A. I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming.

Mr. Vollmer, she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap. I was dead meat, but I wasnt going to lie.

I send them back.

Thats right! she barked, and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why its not a business. Its school!

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!

And so began my long transformation.

Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night.

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America.


Copyright 2002, by Jamie Robert Vollmer

http://www.jamievollmer.com/blue_story.html
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smitra Donating Member (149 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Fantastic story. This should be out on every teacher/education-bashing thread.n/t
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Why couldn't a second year, certified teacher say that?
Experience does not equal exposure.

A 20 year teacher in East Happy MN wouldn't last a minute in NYC.

A 20 year teacher from JFK HS would have a hard time adjusting to Bronx Science.

A professor from Teacher's College would have a hard time adjusting to teaching high school.


People often struggle to learn language in their 20s. They don't struggle when they are young. I feel similarly with regard to education, shifted up 20 years. New teachers are defeated, so if they are rewarded for their success they will never mourn the failure of the system.

Don't fire ANYONE, but certainly don't fire successful teachers at the expense of the children.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. I've taught with quite a few experienced teachers who put 20 or 30 years in a suburban system
before they are hired in our urban district. Most have been great assets. Good teaching guides them through the initial cultural differences. I've seen too many make a good adjustment to agree with you on this.

I do however believe that some teachers are more effective in urban systems and some are more effective in small rural systems and some are more effective in a suburban system. I chose to work in an urban system and I can't picture myself ever teaching in a school serving upper middle class kids. It would definitely be a tough adjustment.
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mr715 Donating Member (770 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. And I want to let you know
that I am happy that teachers have people as devoted as you to represent them. Good teachers are rare, and here I think I might disagree with you a bit. I think some teachers are naturally more attuned to it, and are just more... interpersonally intelligent?

I bet you think you were made a teacher by years of experience. I say you were born to do it, but that experience has improved on it.

We shouldn't diminish this potential in new teachers. Like me! Well, I'm tenured but still under 10 years.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
84. I was born to want to teach
But my craft has been perfected with my experience.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
57. Teacher of the year doesn't mean squat.
You say this person was GREAT but who are you to judge? Have you observed this person in the classroom? Do you know how he prepared lessons? Communicated with parents?

Last year we had a teacher who was "Teacher of the Month" a couple of times fresh out of school and of course, he knew everything, was a total slob, showed no respect for his colleagues, wrecked lab setups because he needed a part and couldn't figure out another way and God forbid he wouldn't lower himself to ask someone, etc. He had a lot of energy and did some creative things but showed no judgement whatsoever. His contract was not renewed because it turned out he was giving kids rides home in his car. No one accused him of wrongdoing but Damn! the appearance of it was all wrong and the admins didn't want to risk a scandal. They knew that based on previous conversations with him by the department chair and principal about his demeanor with his colleagues that he wouldn't get it so his contract wasn't renewed.

So...just because someone is rewarded with "Teacher of the ____" doesn't mean much. It may be that your friend is a very good teacher - but who's to say that those who are more senior are not? Chances are they've had years of seasoning to hone their craft.

I know a lot of people want to believe schools are rife with fat lazy old incompetent teachers and we could free up a lot of salary by getting rid of them. This is a fantasy, it is magical thinking -- just like people who say "cut the waste in government and all our financial problems will go away." It's bullshit.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. One flaw in your argument
It was NEVER EVEN ADDRESSED. All they did was look at years of service and based in on that. VERY VERY lazy.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. You don't know that.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. Sure I do.
That is what he was told. And all the teachers cut at his school were the people who were there the shortest.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. And how do you know that the more experienced teachers weren't
as "good" as your friend? You don't.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Well, you will buy anything
When they tell him the 5 they cut were based solely on years of service and they were in fact the 5 there the shortest, it is awfully ironic. I am capable of evaluating my co-workers. I can look at back the teachers I had and easily tell you which were the best and which were the worst. I can tell you which were the most engaged and worked with the students the most and which didn't. Apparently, you are not capable of doing that, but I trust others can.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Well we have our priorities lined up.
Pointless wars and Wall Street security. We'll just give the schools to the neocons.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. and meanwhile
those same states are 4 layers deep with management that wont be layed off
god help us if an administrator loses a job in a teacher shortage
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Kdillard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
8.  That is always the case imo. Too much waste if you look at the situation
Locally. The lack of leadership from locally elected officials is unbelievable.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
6. JOBS FOR TEACHERS!
FUCK EVERYBODY ELSE, TEACHERS SHOULD HAVE JOBS!

AND GET RAISES!

FUCK THE FACT THE WE HAVE A SHITTY EDUCATION SYSTEM, REWARD THE TEACHERS!

FUCK THE FACT THE WE HAVE A SHITTY ECONOMIC SYSTEM, REWARD THE TEACHERS!

FUCK THE FACT THE WE HAVE A SHITTY SOCIAL SYSTEM, REWARD THE TEACHERS!

IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT THAT THEY EDUCATED, AND TRAINED, THE PEOPLE TO MAKE THE VERY SAME SYSTEM THAT IS FUCKING EVERYBODY ELSE BESIDES THEM!


Hm... too much caps-lock?
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Really nice to see that the ...
recovery is leading us all to 'Boom Times.'

For the poster who believes that teachers are at fault...teachers do not choose the career fields their students choose to study. Neither do they choose the occupations the students, once graduated, choose to enter.

Teachers are working with the next generation. Better give that some thought.

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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
52. No, too much moronic bullshit.
Sorry your third grade teacher pissed in your corn flakes. You obviously have no role in this discussion since you DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AND YOUR HOSTILITY IS SHOWING.

DO YOU FUCKING GET IT? Wait, let me answer that: No.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
82. My third grade teacher was great, actually.
5th was bad, 9th and 10th grade was hell (I knew vastly more than 5 of 6 teachers I had), 11th was no better. Then I said "fuck it" and went to college without a high-school diploma.

But hey, the teachers of the 70's, 80's, and 90's (and now 00's), gave us the stellar flock we have today, why change anything!? They're constantly (with reason) bitching about students being unprepared, why change anything?

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HCE1947 Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
11. Education is on the brink of disaster
In Pennsylvania, the presidents of both Penn State and Pitt have said that the only action saving them from the brink of disaster this year is the stimulus bill. Those funds will run out next year, but many other states and colleges have used them up this year.

This places the Repubs in a real dilemma: Their states need another stimulus bill, but since they opposed the first, how can they support this one without appearing disingenuous. Oh, that's right. They're Repubs; no problem with being disingenuous.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
13. Hey Arne, the catostrophe in education is YOU
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. Time to pay the bill
everyone was getting fat and lazy in the 90s and Bush years. Now the bill has come due.
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Kltpzyxm Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Fat and lazy?
:wtf:
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
33. My daughter is a Sophmore in college, studying to be a teacher.
This really sux.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #33
81. On the plus side for her, I'd expect private schools to open up and start hiring soon.
The kinds of cuts I've been reading about lately are way too steep for the public education system to remain the dominant model of schooling in our society. A district can go from class sizes of 25 to 35 without quality going down the toilet, but these cuts are going to turn the schools into really bad places. Middle class parents will enter the market for private schools when they realize that their kid is not learning enough among 60-some other students.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, but it's what our elites have decided.
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joeglow3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-22-10 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. When send our children to private schools and love it.
However, one drawback that I wrestle with is that private school teachers make ass compared to their public school counterparts.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-21-10 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
45. um, he applauded mass teacher firings in Rhode Island
maybe that was a clue. :shrug:
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