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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:06 PM
Original message
Any Dem voting against HCR should be kicked home
I don't care how progressive they are or they think they are - If they're going to screw us on the biggest social legislation in 45 years - they should go to hell.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Even if they oppose it because they see it as a health insurance boondoggle?
Even if they are holding out for REAL reform?

"...biggest social legislation in 45 years..."

Big =/= good.

I want to see congress vote on the BEST social legislation in 45 years.
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krawhitham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. YEP
Look at the history of Canada's health care, it did not start out great and the built on what they had


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The main thrust started in the socialistic heartland (Sask) with some socialistic voices like Dougla
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 07:18 PM by Oregone
Meanwhile, this is a complete repudiation of socialism and institutionalizes private insurers into the system


But, sure, apples are oranges I guess
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Look health cre reforn is NOT socialism it is just normal health care.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. That went right over your head
The roots of Canadian health care were socialistic, and it remains so today. The government of Sask owned the means of production (the insurance entity), which is the very definition of socialism. Being so, they were able to fund it progressively (taxes), regulate it, control costs, ensure a single equal tier, and make it work for the people. There was no profit motivator. Of course this model of insurance worked.

This "normal health care" reform is indeed not socialistic (as was Tommy Douglas' approach). In fact, it repudiates socialism. This version of health care reform ensures that private for-profit industry will be given government money to perform a service the government could do both cheaper and more efficiently.

So what I'm clearly saying is that to look at the history of the Canadian model (which is heavily socialistic by definition) and use its success to estimate this system (which can be construed as corporatist) will grow successfully is a load of crap.

The two approaches are ENTIRELY different, coming from two separate philosophies. Look up a little about early Sask and the philosophies of the NDP and Tommy Douglas. That service was provided so the people can profit and thrive. Now look up about the "Third Way"; this service will only be provided insofar as private industry can profit. THis isn't the party of FDR/Truman, and this reform isn't coming from that corner. And I bet its not going to end up as well as their programs either.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Problem is, you MUST have something to "build" on.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 10:01 PM by bvar22
The current HCR Bill (the Senate Bill with Obama's picture on the label) does NOT "open the door" to Single Payer.
It NAILS IT SHUT.
This bill would have to be undone before we could "build something better".
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's funny --
that's what I have to say about the jackass conservative Dems who refuse to vote for REAL healthcare reform.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. The choice is between ripping off the people by voting for Senate's HCR
or protecting the people from the health industry by voting against it.

Senate HCR is the biggest con job since NAFTA and IWR!
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Agreed. Now is the time to hold together. n/t
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Or how blue dog they are which is my bluedog's
whine.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Here
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Nite Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Any blue dog, DLCer
conservadem, whatever you want to call them needs to go to hell.
Works both ways.
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argonaut Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Question: If the bill is such a handout to insurance companies, why are they fighting to kill it? nt
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. They aren't
Do you see any kill the bill advertising right now?
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Diamonique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Um.. yes. Every day.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Really
I haven't seen anything on TV sponsored by insurance in over 3 months.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I call BS. Who is sponsoring it? And what does it say?
I have seen nothing.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I have not seen any INDUSTRY ads --
GOPer (and the like) ads against the bill. Nothing from Pharma, nothing from the Wellpoint front groups. They are about to be handled tens of millions of paying customers on a silvee platter. And they know it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Just because you haven't seen them doesn't mean they're not there:
here and here.

60 plus is a front group for Pharma.

Brace For More Attack Ads

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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I know astroturf when I see it.
Like I said, I have not seen any ads locally here in the San Francisco market.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Really? Who do you think is paying for the Chamber of Commerce ads
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 07:27 PM by Hansel
that have blanketed the air waves in recent months?

Who do you think that Dick Army was working for when his was ginning up the Tea Bagger movement? Where do you think they got the fancy buses and the high gloss signs they carry? How does a grass roots movement have these signs all the way across the country in complete coordination?

And who is paying 1 million dollars a day in lobbying to stop this thing? Why do you think that they donate so much to the politicians who are key committee?

They aren't going to put up a neon sign saying "hi, I'm the CEO of United Health Care. I know I've been screwing you for decades and I take home massive bonuses made up of the money you thought you were paying for health care, but I also know you'll trust me when I say health care reform is going to hurt you and prevent you from getting the health care you deserve. Please, stop congress from passing this bill. My daughter just got accepted to Harvard and whoooweee that costs a lot! So please, help us screw you."

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Health Insurers Funded Chamber Attacks Ads
http://undertheinfluence.nationaljournal.com/2010/01/he...


Tuesday, January 12, 2010
Health Insurers Funded Chamber Attack Ads

By Peter H. Stone

Updated at 10:30 am 1/13/10

Just as dealings with the Obama administration and congressional Democrats soured last summer, six of the nation's biggest health insurers began quietly pumping big money into third-party television ads aimed at killing or significantly modifying the major health reform bills moving through Congress.

That money, between $10 million and $20 million, came from Aetna, Cigna, Humana, Kaiser Foundation Health Plans, UnitedHealth Group and Wellpoint, according to two health care lobbyists familiar with the transactions. The companies are all members of the powerful trade group America's Health Insurance Plans.

....

Asked about the health-insurer funding for its ad blitz, the chamber's top lobbyist Bruce Josten said, "No comment. We never disclose funding or what we're going to do." owever, after the story hit the blogosphere Tuesday, Josten confirmed the money transfer from AHIP to several news outlets.

AHIP originally did not return several calls requesting comment for this story. It supplied a written statement Tuesday evening after the story broke. "Reform needs to make health care more affordable, particularly for small businesses that struggle to provide coverage to their employees. We share the very serious concerns employers have raised about provisions that will increase health care costs, including new premium taxes that will hit small businesses hard. So when the employer community--our customers--asked us to contribute to their campaign, we readily agreed."
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Daily here as well.
Southern IN.

Especially during the early morning hours...local news.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. Ever hear the story of Brer Rabbit and the Briar Patch?
There ya go.

The insurance industry is mostly keeping mum - the voices against it are pundits and politicians who are doing nothing but playing to their base, with the expectation that considering recent history the more they oppose it the more people will believe there must be something to it. In the end, they will get rich off insurance industry money, the situation will NOT improve healthcare which will piss off the people and they will, rightfully, blame the Democrats, and of course the health insurance industry gains a couple score millions new customers while NOT having to do anything about costs - everybody wins except the people and the Democratic party.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm in full support for any House democrat who refuses to vote for the HORRID Senate Bill,
as is. No way in hell do I trust the Senate to pass ANY DAMN THING via reconciliation.

THEN, we'll be stuck with that NIGHTMARE.

NO! Don't do it ... don't trust the Senate. :thumbsdown:
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let's repeat 1993!!!!!!
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
26. If they vote against it because it is not progressive enough then I'm with them.
I am with the camp that believes that any bill is not necessarily better than no bill. At the very least, it needs a robust public option, and if it doesn't have that, vote against it.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
27. Well, you're entitled to your opinion,
But frankly I'm not going to vote for any Dem who supported this monstrosity of a bill, sorry. It is going to have direct negative consequences on my life and on the lives the people I know and love, not to mention most of the rest of the people in this country.

Frankly I hope this bill dies and we start over with a truly progressive, non-corporate gift of a bill, not this obscenity that is trying to pass for "reform"

You don't like that, oh well.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
29. Funny. I feel the same way about "Democrats" who vote FOR it.
LESS than 35% of ALL Americans support Mandates without a Public Option.

Good luck selling this piece of shit to the American People.

Individual Mandates + NO Public Option + Tax INCREASE on the Working Class + Billions in Corporate Welfare = a Republican Health Insurance SCAM


"When given the choice between a Republican, and a Democrat who acts like a Republican, the voters will choose the Republican every time." ---Harry Truman

QED Massachusetts


"By their works you will know them."

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
31. Any Democrat who votes for it is then on my shit list.
Piece of shit bailout for insurance companies. NO!
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
32. It's NOT reform w/o a PO or Medicare expansion, it's just pro-CORPORATE, not social, legislation.
Edited on Fri Mar-05-10 10:10 AM by grahamhgreen
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