An Old Fashioned Shunning

[NanceGreggs]

Allow me to be direct and to-the-point.

We, the People, no longer wish to be associated with you – and you know who you are.

We are tired of trying to engage you in any meaningful discussion, because it is pointless. You have amply demonstrated that you are incapable of intelligent discourse. You contribute nothing of value to the conversation; ergo, you won’t be missed.

We are weary of trying to educate you, or prompt you to educate yourselves. You prefer to live in ignorance – a state in which you actually take pride. We have better things to do than listen to the mindlessness of your chatter, or those whose mindless chatter you parrot at every opportunity.

We no longer have any tolerance for your intolerance. We find your bigotry against those who speak differently, love differently, worship differently to be abhorrent. We find you abhorrent in that you not only cling to your prejudices, you encourage others to be just as distrustful of their fellow citizens as you have become.

We are beyond any desire to expend further time or effort trying to enlighten you, coax you, persuade you. You have chosen your side – and we have chosen ours. You have made it clear you will not be moved – neither will we.

You choose to support those who would tear this country apart, and distance one American from another. We choose to stand behind those who would unify it, and instil a sense of community.

You choose to threaten violence towards those who disagree with you, anxious for swift retribution against anyone who dares live their lives differently than you live yours. We choose to seek justice against those who have wronged us – the warmongers, the liars, the hypocrites, the torturers – and we have the patience and fortitude to see to it that justice prevails, no matter how long it takes.

You choose to hide behind the mockery you have made of Christianity, twisting it so as to excuse your inexcusable behavior towards your fellow man. We choose to embrace our fellow man and make his fight our fight – and know we are doing God’s work, the fact of our being Christians or otherwise being of no import whatsoever. We understand the concept of as you do to the least among you – a concept which seems to have escaped your attention, along with so many other ideals you might have learned from, had you taken them half as seriously as we do.

You choose to stand still, mired in the mud of your own self-inflicted stupidity, content to be led by-the-nose by useless loud-mouths so blatantly devoid of constructive thought. We choose to move forward, unfettered by the need to memorize talking points, inspired by each others quiet-but-determined sense of purpose.

We will continue to defend your right to speak, regardless of what you have to say. We just don’t want to hear it any longer – and we assert our right to walk away, distance ourselves from your prattle, and get on with the important things that need to be done.

We are The People. We are Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Greens. We are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims. We are liberal, conservative, progressive, middle-of-the-road – poor/wealthy, male/female, gay/straight, young/old, highly educated/barely educated, urban/suburban/rural dwellers who will continue to recognize each other and work together to ensure that people like you never exert any control over our nation.

Yes, we are a country divided. Sadly so. But we are no longer divided along the lines of political party, religious belief, sexual orientation, gender, race, ethnic origins or financial means.

We are divided between those who believe in equality for all, and those who believe they are somehow more equal than others; between those who are content to propagate lies and those who are restless in their pursuit of the truth; between those that take without regard for who goes without, and those who are determined that until no one goes without, nothing taken is truly earned nor deserved.

This is not only the way things are, this is the way things were meant to be. It was always going to come down to this: the ill-informed meanderings versus the facts-on-the-ground, the do-as-I-say versus the do-as-I-do, the Bible-thumpin' I've-got-mine versus those who are in fact thy brothers'-keepers.

The lines have been drawn. We all know where we stand.

So let the shunning begin.

[MadMaddie]

1. "Let the shunning begin"!!

Bravo Nance!! You have nailed them!! :thumbsup:

[SharonAnn]

48. I started this a little more than a year ago. Just didn't realize it was "shunning".

I've found that the right-wingers around me are "aggressively ignorant" and are determined to remain that way.

No point in wasting any time with them on anything.

When a group gets into right-wing proselytizing, I quit it.

Just won't go there.

Don't even attempt to justify it.

[MadMaddie]

68. I am with you! They want to argue for the sake of arguing!

We have given them plenty of time and opportunity to defend their arguments and they simply are too lazy to do it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Amen, my dear Nance.

Nobody, but nobody, says it as well, or as clearly, or as profoundly as you do.

We all know where we stand. Indeed.


K&R

[MyOwnPeace]

59. Cliff Notes................

Don't call us, we'll call y......, eh, NEVER MIND! :kick: :kick:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

60. What?

What are you talking about?

:shrug:

[MyOwnPeace]

86. Cliff notes.........

I thought it was clear: We don't need them and they don't need to sit by the phone waiting for another call to "work together."
Sorry it didn't come over that way for you. :eyes: :eyes:

Loved the essay! :kick:

[EmeraldCityGrl]

3. I am so onboard! K&R

[Duer 157099]

4. Damn right

And how many of us will not be spending Thanksgiving with family because of this? (raises hand)

I am *so* done with them.

[Naturyl]

34. Yep, there are two thanksgivings in the family this year.

One for the Republicans and one for us.

And that's fine with me.

[kleec]

62. Yup

I'm another who is not spending Thanksgiving with family due to the same nonsense. I have spent holidays with family in the past and always return home very frustrated and angry. This year I refuse to subject myself to the kind of behavior that causes that kind of reaction within.

[ckimmy57]

77. Sometimes

you just have to rid yourself of the "toxins" in your life. Sorry that you will not be spending it with family but who knows.....you may have a more enjoyable time with "friends". You know....family are the friends you chose for your life. Have a great Thanksgiving!!!!

[PSzymeczek]

93. The only one

who might say anything is my FIL. I swear if he does, I will walk out and sit in the car.

[firedupdem]

5. K&R! n/t

[Divine Discontent]

6. as Nance knows, I had to shun one away who told me I wasn't supposed to be who I am

It's amazing what judgment can do when it's cloaked behind a title of "pastor" that brainwashes someone like my friend who used to support everyone's rights to simply - 'be'.
I used to tell him when he started to tell me I was wrong to be Gay, 'you know, in John 3:16 Jesus said, WHO-SO-EVER believes shall not perish, and he didn't say, unless you're not straight'.

I still stand up, too, for their right to have freedom of speech. I just don't care to hear their misguided hatred (that's why I don't watch Faux like some do here, I don't know how they can stomach it), and will continue to shun and shame those who are for ignoring the homeless, the handicapped, differing sexualities/beliefs than their own, and who support torture as if it's a virtuous action!

I hope they wake up before it's too late.

Thank God for those who learn to live together.

[NanceGreggs]

8. "Thank God for those who learn to live together" ...

It is a lesson that, in the mere learning of it, truly is its own reward.

And your friendship is a reward I treasure more than you will ever know.

[Divine Discontent]

17. I would just squeeze hug ya if I could!!

:loveya: (thank you for your eloquent & inspiring prose, and mostly for being you)



Po' Boy Blues
by Langston Hughes

When I was home de
Sunshine seemed like gold.
When I was home de
Sunshine seemed like gold.
Since I come up North de
Whole damn world's turned cold.

I was a good boy,
Never done no wrong.
Yes, I was a good boy,
Never done no wrong,
But this world is weary
An' de road is hard an' long.

I fell in love with
A gal I thought was kind.
Fell in love with
A gal I thought was kind.
She made me lose ma money
An' almost lose ma mind.

Weary, weary,
Weary early in de morn.
Weary, weary,
Early, early in de morn.
I's so weary
I wish I'd never been born.


After I left FL for cold CO in 2003, I felt my life would end and nothing I could do would stop the tears of heartbreak, thankfully, I realized true friends are something you hold precious because they don't judge you, and I got through. Open-minded individuals with differing beliefs have brought comfort in a very mad world.


It is amazing the people described in your OP that we see everyday, who spend their lives wanting the annihilation of millions who follow a different faith, and clamor viciously against things like healthcare for all, and, my God - the very notion that they could have a problem with LOVE being found between two humans makes me want to scream, but, to believe those things that they do and still lay claim to actually following Christ??? I say with sorrow for them, "whatever it is you believe in surely isn't anything I do! There must be another Jesus you've confused with the one who preached The Beatitudes at the sermon on the mount about the poor, meek, the peacemakers, and the pure of heart!"

[Sinistrous]

7. "...those who are restless in their pursuit of the truth...

What an exquisite phrase. I am in awe.

[aquart]

9. Crap on a cracker.

This nation doesn't shun. It votes.

Shunning is what the Republicans did to us. Shunning means you get to preserve your prejudices intact instead of doing the hard slogging work to find common ground. This government cannot function if shuning is in progress. It ONLY works by compromise. That's how it was set up. Deliberately.

As for the "we are no longer divided along the lines of political party, religious belief, sexual orientation, gender, race, ethnic origins or financial means..." ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? Shake that kaleidoscope one more time. We come together one way and divide another.

We do NOT "all know where we stand." That's the silliest assumption of all. It makes us sound like the standing rocks of Stonehenge. I hope we're a hell of a lot more flexible than that.

Shunning works nicely for tight, inbred little communities like the Amish who don't mind all the nasty genetic diseases they get from associating only with each other and only with one set of ideas.

Shunning does NOT work for a pluralistic and inclusive society.

You should be ashamed of this one.

[NanceGreggs]

11. There comes a time ...

... when the bigoted, hate-mongering, but-Limbaugh-said-just-this-morning talking points hit your last fuckin' nerve - and, hey, guess what? Mine's been hit.

Some choose to beat a dead horse - I choose to shun the tea-baggin' dead-horse-beaters and move on with the more important things in my nation's life.

I'm all for an "inclusive society" - I just don't think it includes those who advocate exclusion based on their FAUX-News, pretend-Christian, my-lies-are-as-valid-as-your-facts criteria.

It's time to ignore the ignorant - and stop pretending they have something valid to say.

I stand by my dish.

[Guilded Lilly]

12. and I

stand right next to you!

:)

[NanceGreggs]

13. Glad to be at YOUR side, Guilded Lily ...

... and welcome to the DU family!

:patriot:

[cognoscere]

79. I'll stand behind both of you,

because the way the other side operates, someone has to cover your six.

[aquart]

14. That's quite different from "shunning," don't you think?

And then, too, there's the assumption that someone wrong politically is wrong on everything. "Shunning" is total. Are you really advocating total ignoring? A woman against abortion and for Limbaugh will absolutely NEVER have the best recipe for fudge or know how to get out a stain that has eluded you? Not even that? Will the man ranting about getting his country back (from those brown, black, yellow, and gay people) won't do a good job on your septic tank? For sure?

I can certainly appreciate the hyperbolic grand gesture. I'm just saying it has little practical application. By all means, spend your money and your time where your tastes and causes are supported. But do you really want me to believe that the Republican on the line in front of me at the supermarket won't know if the product that she's tried and I haven't works or not?

How does demonizing and dehumanizing help any situation? Except that it makes the carefully created non-human stranger easier to KILL? In which case, how are you different from them, exactly?

[NanceGreggs]

64. You are totally misreading what I've said ...

... which is the fault of the writer, not the reader. Perhaps I was not as clear as I intended to be.

I am talking here about "shunning" in the political sense. For example, I have long held that Democrats should never appear on Fox-News programs (an opinion expressed by many here over the years). That organization's people are not interested in honest discussion nor debate - and pretending they are, or that they can be persuaded to be so, only validates their ridiculous claims of being "fair and balanced".

I engage in conversation with people every day whose politics are probably very different than mine, and I am happy to do so. However, once someone starts spewing talking points about how faggots are ruining the country, or how a colored boy should never have been allowed to be president, I shut down the conversation and walk away. Further discussion is pointless - and I have better things to do.

[Divine Discontent]

20. 'stand by my dish' - as you should, and another reason why is this,

there are those who are, will always be, and never will allow any open-minded thought to enter into the dark crevices in their mind. These are the same people who for 8 years allowed B*sh to bloat the national deficit 6 trillion more than his predecessor, and they were nowhere to be found rallying against the spending - in fact they more than likely cheered him on.

They are a small portion of society that needs to be ignored as this country tries to right the ship and they have no interest in making things better. From age to age, they're still the same, regardless of their name! Status-Quo is what they know and shame on some of our Democratic senators for being afraid of them.

Finally, many of the best writers of all eras have tread into dark fare that some may not wish to take a bite of - but, nonetheless, it doesn't make their work any less true!

have a good week, and great job!

[bertman]

45. ". . . there are those who are, will always be, and never will allow any open-minded thought

to enter into the dark crevices in their mind."

That runs counter to my experience that there are some very bigoted people who ARE changed by some experience in their life that opens their eyes. I have witnessed this in family members and in numerous acquaintances. It was recently high-lighted nationally when a KKK member offered an apology to Rep. John Lewis. Another example, but I don't remember the names of the folks involved, was a former Klansman who joined forces with a black woman to form a potent organization for helping the working poor in North Carolina.

Of course, there will be some who will NEVER see the light. But, you never know who they are and who might be positively influenced by a simple interaction with someone who is different from them.

[rasputin1952]

24. Parts of this nation do indeed "shun", they shunned us for 8+ yeas...

we were taken out of the equation by self-righteous RW maniacs, shuffled into a corner while they bludgeoned the country into submission. A few of us refused to submit and when power returned to the D's, they offered a hand in friendship/bi-partisanship and were bitten by the rabid weasels of the Right.

It has come down to the point where we should shun them, cast them into the night and let them howl at the moon and bark at passersby. Yes, the nation voted, and voted to change direction, one cannot change direction if held back by a ball and chain of a discredited GOP. Why give them anything? They are a pariah, a party in meltdown.

As for the Christianity aspect, no one need claim the nomenclature of Christian, but if one does accept that mantle, it comes with responsibility; one should actually educate themselves as to the aspects of forgiveness, caring, empathy, charity, education and hypocrisy that are mentioned. One need not be a Christian to see that there are some pretty good aspects that have been trampled into the mud. Just as one need not be a Buddhist to find good in the Buddha's teachings, or a Jew to find good in the Torah,or a Muslim to find good in the Koran...Confucius had a lot to say about justice, I find much of it enlightening and try to adhere to the best aspects of all of the great philosophies, (as well as some of the "lesser" ones).

The religious right has skewed things to make sure that people outside of their circle see them as exceptional hypocrites, I call it like I see it, the hypocrisy is beyond description. We, as a nation, and especially as a party, need to shun them and the others who would divide, rule by fear and compromise the very essence of this nation. Shun yes, I think we might need to go all the way to banishment.

[saltpoint]

36. There is shunning in virtually all cultures of one form or another because

community and exile are potent definitional values.

The OP nails it and nails it good.

[mlevans]

43. Truth for sure.

When I used to canvas for public interest coalition, the basic rule was to spend time with supporters, not waste it with non-supporters. Spending time with non-supporters is wasteful because (a.) you rarely if ever change their minds, and (b.) it adversely affects your mental state, often to the point that you can't get supporters fired up to make contributions to do the work. I see this OP as being of that same ilk. Why should we let teabaggers and others of that no-mind sort drag us into their pit of despair? No, the thing to do is ignore them and stick with those who understand and believe in the real work that needs to be done. That way we can make our country the greatest it possibly can be. Thanks to you, Nance; for my money this is exceptionally well-reasoned (even if it did arise out of the hitting of that last nerve).

[saltpoint]

44. Not sure if you intended your reply to go to Nance, but for

what it's worth, I agree with you all the way.

There's a lot of important work to do day by day by day and we just can't stop the world and wait for the recalcitrants to catch up.

[treestar]

51. They have proven they won't be reasoned with and they won't compromise

That's why they get so much of what they want, we compromise and they don't. Look at how every repuke voted lock step against the stimulus in the House.

[kestrel91316]

63. Some of us find no good reason to find common ground with evil,

to collaborate with our oppressors.

YMMV. But don't fault those who feel this is the path they must take.

[PBS Poll-435]

10. Freedom of Speech Doesn't Mean Freedom to Be Heard

K/R

[The Wizard]

15. Shunning works for me

I'm too old to waste what time I have left engaging bigoted morons. We already know what they're going to say; why should we bother talking to them? It's like pissing into the wind or shoveling shit against the tide.
Shutting down the conversation is easy. Just ask them if they've tried any of the wonderful products made by Fleet. Sorry to get all scatological, but hey, we're talking about people who are, in essence, a dangerous cult.

[taggline]

95. Fuckin' PERFECT...Fleet!!!

[PJPhreak]

16. Nailed It!

When the night has come
And the land is dark
And the moon is the only light we see
No I won't be afraid
No I won't be afraid
Just as long as you stand, stand by me

And darling, darling stand by me
Oh, now, now, stand by me
Stand by me, stand by me

If the sky that we look upon
Should tumble and fall
And the mountain should crumble to the sea
I won't cry, I won't cry
No I won't shed a tear
Just as long as you stand, stand by me

And darling, darling stand by me
Oh, stand by me
Stand by me, stand by me, stand by me

Whenever you're in trouble won't you stand by me
Oh, now, now, stand by me
Oh, stand by me, stand by me, stand by me

Darling, darling stand by me
Stand by me
Oh stand by me, stand by me, stand by me

John Lennon

[NanceGreggs]

18. Ben E. King n/t

[Oldtimeralso]

69. Nance

There have been many renditions of "Standby Me". My generation thinks of the original Ben E. King, some younger one think of John Lennon, and country fans think of Mickey Gilley's version from "Urban Cowboy". I also like the "Around the World" recent version.

I think we should credit the writers, as per Wikipedia "Stand by Me" is the title of a song originally performed by Ben E. King and written by Ben E. King, Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller.

Having been a shunee at one side of the family's gatherings I am proud to standby you and will be a shunner this year.

[NanceGreggs]

72. I realize there have been many renditions ...

The fact that the lyrics were followed by the name "John Lennon" might lead one to believe that he wrote the song. I just wanted to give Mr. King the credit that is his due.

[taggline]

96. Written by Ben E. King, Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller.

Don't mean to be a dipshit...but.

[PJPhreak]

100. I stand corrected...

I was under the impression that Lennon wrote this....Thank You!

[BlooInBloo]

19. Heh indeedy.

[cornermouse]

21. Don't forget to tell them that they aren't democrats any more.

That always works to send them out looking for another political party to vote for. If they care enough to participate on a political board they probably care enough to vote when the time comes.

Shunning is the definition of echo chamber. It may be gratifying to one's personal vanity but inevitably results in a smaller voting base and is one of the major problems/reasons the republicans lost their minds. Do you really want to be in their company, loosely speaking?

[tavalon]

22. If I still lived in Texas, this would have ached more than you can know

I hated that state and I gave too many of my years to it. Now I live in Seattle, just a stone's throw away from Vancouver. It's much more civilized here, though the pockets of crazy and stupid are here too, if one but travels a few miles away from the metropolis. I envy you living in Canada. I'm sure to you it's no big deal, but to me, it seems mythical: a magical place where the stupid American does not go. Really, I know that isn't true, but............

Thank you again Nance, for saying what needs to be said and saying it well.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

23. A concept worth embracing Nance. Thank you.

I've been doing it in a lot of aspects of my life such as cable news, if I skim past it, the TV's already on mute. I agree that it's time to put the mute button on the people you speak of. Just my own mute button. They're free to speak away, but that freedom ends at the point where I Have to Listen.

You're a gem. :loveya:

[JohnnyLib2]

25. The descriptions are apt, but the "shunning" troubles me.

"Mute" fits, along with ignore, disengage, perhaps screen, filter, or "give the old blank stare."

Shunning, though, has too many unwanted associations, historical and otherwise.

Edited to add: Recommended. Certainly thought provoking.

[PSzymeczek]

97. Shunning

speaks of the Mennonite/Amish portions of my heritage. I won't talk to you, I won't eat with you, I won't acknowledge your existence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning#Anabaptists:_Amish.2C_Mennonites.2C_and_Hutterites


edited to add link.

[santamargarita]

26. Well said, thanks

:applause:

[freddie mertz]

27. "Shunning" is not an option for those of us who serve the public...

I feel the same way you do about the right wing "leaders" and politicians who seek to exploit hate.

But I do not think the solution is to shut out those who may be their targets of choice.

As an educator, I refuse to turn my back on anyone who shows up in my class, no matter what their political or social views.

Real people in the world are more complicated than your "us or them" construct would seem to allow.

[JohnnyLib2]

29. Agreed.

"The devil's in the details" seems to fit.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

41. I understand your point -- from this OP, I like the point here:

We choose to move forward, unfettered by the need to memorize talking points, inspired by each others quiet-but-determined sense of purpose.

We will continue to defend your right to speak, regardless of what you have to say. We just don’t want to hear it any longer – and we assert our right to walk away, distance ourselves from your prattle, and get on with the important things that need to be done.

....

BY knowing clearly what we are pushing for and continuing forward, we can serve as an example to those who can't see.

[freddie mertz]

46. Depends on who "you" is...

I've had more than enough of dismissive, unhelpful, contemptible exchanges RIGHT HERE among more or less like-minded people...

But this is an internet site and people behave this way because they can get away with it without getting fired, punched in the face, etc....

In the real world, we interact with actual living beings in real time.

There is no way in the world that any kind of shunning or refusing to speak with people because of their beliefs makes any sense in that context.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

53. you are very correct

The real world doesn't work well when we separate ourselves from each other.

Anyway, about nasty behavior -- I've been on the receiving end, and when I think it's was warranted, I reply severely.

Not always perfect, either. It's very true that crappy behavior is easy when you only have your internal ethics to answer to.

Anyway, I see more to the OP than strictly and simply shunning people because of their beliefs.

[Mad_Dem_X]

28. K&R.

[LeftishBrit]

30. Thanks for this!

In response to some comments here: I interpreted 'shunning' as meaning not excluding far right-wingers from society and its provisions, but simply putting their views on a real-life version of 'ignore' rather than trying to convert them or compromise with them.

I think that while on the one hand some people split themselves into hostile factions on trivial issues (sadly common on the left), some do try too hard to seek common ground with extreme right-wingers.

This happens where people on the left or centre assume that dealing with the *extreme* right is like dealing with the *moderate* right, and that they share basic principles in common, and differ only in how to achieve and implement them. Not true with the extreme right; the principles are fundamentally different.

It happens when people argue that 'the Right may be right on some issues; the Left have no monopoly on truth'. The Far Right are IMO *always* wrong on fundamentals; they may happen to achieve a correct conclusion for the wrong reasons (e.g. xenophobic-isolationists who oppose the Iraq war because they oppose all dealings with foreigners); but I will stick out my neck and say that there is *never* any issue where right-wingers are consistently right where non-right-wingers are not.

It happens when anti-establishment left-wingers think that it is OK to accept or collaborate with anti-establishment far-right-wingers, because they share some enemies. Not so. The right-wingers oppose the establishment because they want to replace it with something *worse*, not better; and progressives should never collaborate on that. That way could lie new or even old forms of fascism.

It is perhaps easier to identify the real Far Right and its fundamental opposition to democratic and pro-society principles in multi-party systems, where the most extreme often have their own political parties. The British BNP or French National Front are obviously not parties with which left-wingers or moderates should be seeking to collaborate! Related to the above: as someone from a different system, I am struck by the rather different use of 'conservative' in American than in much Europaean politics. Here, it mostly means the moderate right and usually excludes true extremists (though some of the latter do slip through the net!) Americans appear to use the term both for the mainstream right and for the far right. On the whole, the equivalents of 'teabaggers' here would not be referred to simply as 'conservative'; they might or might not vote for the mainstream Conservative Party, but such extreme views are called *right-wing*, not conservative. I would describe Blue Dog Democrats and moderate Republicans as *conservatives*; Pat Buchanan and Michele Bachmann and Senator DeMented are not *conservatives* but at least borderline fascists. I wonder if this broad use of the term 'conservative' helps to blur distinctions between moderate and extreme right-wingers, and encourages some liberals to think that common ground can be made with the latter?

[lunatica]

31. Here is the line.

k&rec'd

[Naturyl]

32. Gotta K&R this.

As for the shunning, I began years ago. Haven't looked back.

[Naturyl]

33. Also, I'm stealing a line for my sig if you don't mind

Adapted slightly to read "We are determined that until no one goes without, nothing taken is truly earned nor deserved."

[saltpoint]

35. Community and collaboration have been offered by this new president

but were mocked and dismissed by the Republican convention delegates in St. Paul last autumn, as Sarah Palin orchestrated hooting and snorting, ridiculing "community organizers," suggesting to the gathered hyper-partisans that being the mayor of a city was similar to being a community organizer but for the mayor's role having "actual responsibilities."

Then-Governor Palin did not delineate having responsibilities attendant to her being a governor of a whole state, a job she quit mid-term.

Shunning. Community.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this site.

[saltpoint]

37. And for the more recalcitrant fundamentalist nutbags out there

among the demographic you target in this piece, Nance, I'd suggest a little revocation of tax exemption, just to make things interesting.

We'd see just how much caterwauling against stem cell research and gay marriage they could afford if their tax-exempt status was yanked.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

38. Oh Nance, this should be set to music

And made into an anthem!

I'm so with you on this.

[olegramps]

39. There was a time when those of opposing political views could calmly discuss the issues.

This is what President Obama expressed time and time again in both of his books. He longed for a return to civility. He has far more patience than I possess and I fear that the hand of friendship that he has extended to the Republicans will continue to be spit on.

I am convinced by the daily vitriol of hatred and division that spews from the Republican Party and their propagandists that there is little hope for any reconciliation. It would be tantamount to believing that you could come to agreement vermin such as Hitler and his thugs. At some point compromise with extremists constitutes capitulation and a total abandonment of moral rectitude. It appears to me that one side must prevail and there is no room for compromise when the issues that divide us are irreconcilable. What we are facing is fascistic intolerance that is driven by outright hatred of anyone who resists these extremists who are determined to dominate every aspect of every citizen's existence. Everyone who doesn't look like them, share their prejudices, their religious beliefs and totalitarian politics are the enemy. This is a struggle in which there is no room for compromise just as the founders of our Republic could no longer pay homage to a monarchy that claimed God given exalted rights over mankind. There is no room for compromise.

[Robyn66]

40. So when exactly did you speak to my father? (nt)

[Harry Monroe]

42. Damn, Nance!!!! You've nailed it once again!!

I don't know what you do for a living, but you'd make a GREAT newspaper columnist!! Here in this "progressive" State of Mississippi, I am forced to look at Ann Coulter's ugly and offensive mug each Friday as I scan the editorial page of the "Clarion-Ledger". Yes, they still run her hate and bile faithfully once a week here, despite the fact that she has absolutely nothing of value to say or add to the dialogue!! But rednecks in this part of the woods eat it up!!

[jenmito]

47. K&R-excellent! This should be read in its entirety on every "news" show! n/t

[bertman]

49. Another very well-written, though somewhat fanciful, piece from you, Nance.

Judging from the responses, there are a lot of folks who think shunning is a great idea. Along with a few others, I take issue with that approach because removing oneself from contact with others who view things differently ultimately makes things worse and lessens our ability to think of others as human beings--no matter how void of compassion and understanding the shunned may be.

A few replies upthread I commented that I have seen many hard-core haters change their lives and open their hearts when few would have thought it possible. Perhaps they were responding to shunning. More likely, their life experiences and interactions with others who were different from them brought a glimmer of understanding and then a bright light of awareness that changed them for the better.

I'm not suggesting that any of us have to actively engage the neanderthal haters. What I'm saying is that life sometimes offers opportunities where we least expect them. Just communicating in a respectful way by saying hello and engaging in small talk often bridges divides that seem unbridgeable. Having grown up in red-neck country and still working with enough of them to make me want to perpetrate violence on the worst offenders, I have seen some of them who begrudgingly had to work with a lesbian co-worker actually come to understand her right to be who she is and to raise her family in the same way they have raised theirs. Without the contact, minimal and casual that it was, these folks may never have come to see this person as a person--only as a stereotype of someone Pat Robertson wants them to hate.

I have considered shunning on more than one occasion, especially when confronted with my redneck, asshole relatives' racist pontifications,. So far, I have been able to be a bigger person and simply walk away when the conversation turned too nasty. Shunning is a powerful weapon. It builds walls that divide us, hardens our hearts so that we become more like those we are shunning. I would prefer to leave it to the narrow-minded bigots, and remove it from the progressive arsenal entirely.

[tilsammans]

55. Excellent reply! Very well said.

This issue is one I struggle with, as so many of the friends and family members have happily drunk the Kool-Aid and are now insufferable. They spare no opportunity to inject RW talking points into any conversation, no matter of their relevance to the matter being discussed.

So I challenge them politely to provide the “facts” on which they base their opinions. I ask for a credible source.

They can’t do it, because such information doesn’t exist.

I’ll continue to handle such situations in that way. And I’ll limit my exposure to those clods. But I won’t shun them completely.

Because as Gandhi said, “You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” :grouphug:

[bertman]

101. "you must be the change you wish to see in the world". Very good. Thank you.

[treestar]

50. Useless loud-mouths and their prattle

I love it!

I just did walk out on one of my uncles who was prattling the old useless stuff. One of the most ignorant people on the planet, he asserts his opinion in the face of people with greater knowledge. He deserves to be shunned.

Shunning them is a good idea. Showing they are not worth discussing anything with.

[annabanana]

52. If only we were ALLOWED to disengage from this unthinking mob . .

But, alas, the media keeps holding them up as reasonable people with legitimate concerns (neither of which is true).

Hence we waste all our time trying to teach a pig to sing.

[maxpower]

54. Right on

Great rant Nance, but they all are.


Peace,
Max

[Arkana]

56. Nance, I don't read your columns often, but maybe I should--cause this one

is fantastic.

[GreenArrow]

57. Apparently the answer is yes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7069511

[DonCoquixote]

58. If DU ever gets a hall of fame

Nance needs to be on it, and articles like this are an example of why. If we had journalists on the left who could be half as clear as her, we might actually have a voice in media.

[kestrel91316]

61. I called for this exact thing (without the essay) a long time ago here and got

nastily attacked, but I still support it. Cut them off. Don't befriend them. Don't break bread with them. Avoid doing business with them when possible.

[winyanstaz]

65. K & R......

Once again you have slammed it out of the ballpark Nance! Very well written, very well put. Once again..I thank you. :)

[badgerpup]

66. BRAVA!

:applause:

Nance...you not only hit the nail on the head, you drove it clear through the board and out the other side.
You are amazing (but you already knew that...) :patriot:

:kick:

[Hutzpa]

67. Thanks Nance

I've always admired your tenacity with words, you have this ability to put things in a succinct
manner.

The feelings your threads give is always mutual, if that makes any sense, hope you catch my drift.

Kudos to another fine post...:thumbsup:

[Prism]

70. What a marvelously awful idea

Shunning is the coward's way out. Had I followed this advice and shunned my Roman Catholic family rather than engage, debate, and educate them, I would not now be able to enjoy holidays where my boyfriend is now welcome, or get to enjoy my niece, or attend birthdays, showers, and familial events full of love, companionship, and joy.

Some of my LGBT friends chose to shun families (often mutually) who could have been, with a little effort, educated and softened in their bigotry. Hey, sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes the bigotry and hatred are too deep, the chasm of ignorance too wide to be bridged. But that is something worthy of being explored first. I've seen friends throw their families away, only to find years later that the parents could be brought around, that the siblings would have accepted them, that so many hours, months, and years lost could have been enjoyed and filled with positive experiences, understanding, and progress rather than bitterness and recrimination.

Hatred in the service of combating hatred is still hatred.

Are there so many Republicans and Religious Right crazies bouncing around Canada that this is even a viable, pressing concern for you?

[NanceGreggs]

76. I can't imagine ...

... how what happens in Canada is relevant to this discussion. What happens in my own country is always of pressing concern to me, as it should be to every citizen.

If you've read my intent as advocating cutting off family members or friends on the basis of their having different political beliefs, you've missed the point entirely.

[Prism]

78. No, I understood the point quite well

Shunning, as you've laid it out here, is little more than advocacy for increased polarization. Increased polarization is at the heart of the current hatred eroding every aspect of modern politics in America. I think the Internet is no minor culprit in this. People now, more than ever, retreat to their ideological holes where they can be increasingly radicalized as their minds grow inward ever further into the caricature and dehumanization of political opponents.

As a gay man, I see this so much differently than you. I do not have the luxury to ignore anyone at all. When our rights are being compromised and discarded by popular referenda, I not only cannot ignore people on the other side, active engagement of them is the only way forward. Your method would leave ignorance, hatred, intolerance, and bigotry unchallenged, when challenging people is the only path towards progress.

I know, there are internet opinions and real life opinions. This whole thread is solidly grounded in internet opinion. It feels good to shun, to hate, to pile on, to pick the easy ideological targets. They are called rants after all. But in practical terms, the idea is a nonstarter for people like me whose entire future, family, safety, and equality is based solely on engagement, challenge, provocation, and the will to change minds and see things through.

"I'm superior and cannot be bothered by these cretins." That's a fine attitude among friends. Unfortunately, those cretins bother me and my family quite regularly. They bother me enough to enshrine their intolerance in laws and constitutions.

I cannot shun them because I cannot ignore them. Only the cavalierly privileged would advocate for such a thing, people who are uniquely removed from the hardships endured by the people actually living here and actually affected by what the people on the Right actually get up to outside of the Internet.

[NanceGreggs]

80. We seem to be talking at cross purposes ...

... and I apologize. I tend to get a bit riled when I think someone is suggesting that because I don't reside in my own country, I should simply ignore what goes on there. My family and friends live there, and are directly impacted by what transpires - and that includes my own son.

I am by no means advocating that we let bigots or liars go unchallenged; quite the opposite. What I am advocating, however, is that decent people disassociate themselves from what the bigots and liars stand for.

The current waning of the GOP, IMHO, is a product of that thinking. There are decent Republicans whose political ideas and ideals might be vastly different than our own, but they are now leaving because they don't want to be associated with a party whose spokespeople are blatant liars, bigots, spewers of mis-information, and supporters of hatred and violence.

Unfortunately, Canada is not without its Limbaugh listeners, its Palin fans, its right-wingers who still think Bush was one of the greatest president our country ever had. There is bigotry here, too, and its impact on people here is no different than it is in the States.

By "shunning", I don't mean ignoring people whose attitudes I find abhorrent. I mean making it clear that I have no desire to hear what they have to say on certain topics, and will simply refuse to listen when they start spewing their vitriol.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

71. Been "Shunning" for a while

I've lost family members, friends, clients...never felt better.
It's a hard, hard thing to do, family the hardest.
But in the end the truth will win.
I need to be on that side, this side.
Did not want "sides", tried to understand all, tried to encompass all ideas.
Threw up in my mouth a little bit, swallowed my pride, my honor, my beliefs.
NO MORE.
Behind you all the way.

(Eric Clapton and Martin Sharp)

Twice upon a time in the valley of the tears
The auctioneer is bidding for a box of fading years
And the elephants are dancing on the graves of squealing mice.
Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?

And the ice creams are all melting on the streets of bloody beer
While the beggars stain the pavements with flourescent Christmas cheer
And the Bentley driving guru is putting up his price.
Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?

And the prophets in the boutiques give out messages of hope
With jingle bells and fairy tales and blind colliding scopes
And you can tell they're all the same underneath the pretty lies.
Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?

The yellow Buddhist monk is burning brightly at the zoo
You can bring a bowl of rice and then a glass of water too
And fate is setting up the chessboard while death rolls out the dice.
Anyone for tennis, wouldn't that be nice?

[defendandprotect]

73. You are so right that there is a big price to pay ... but, IMO, it has to be done . . .!!!

[pokercat999]

74. I'm generally in agreement with the sentiments expressed

in you essay. However shunning the majority will not have any effect on them, although it might make you feel better, if not a tad lonely.

For your shunning to have any effect you would have to limit the population around you to those who are of same mind, as you would no longer try to convince the shunned to your way of thinking. Fair enough. Where exactly would you put the dividing line, the borders, in the new countries formed from the once United States of America?

[NanceGreggs]

75. The fault lies with the writer ...

... not the reader. But some people here are taking this far more literally than was meant.

I am talking about "shunning" in the sense of refusing to engage in pointless conversations with people who aren't interested in honest discussion or debate, but merely an opportunity to spew their bigotry and voice misinformation and lies as though they were facts.

[Major Hogwash]

85. It was pretty damn clear to me what you meant.

Not too much fault lies with what you wrote at all.
You're a damn good writer.

[butterfly77]

81. Kick,Kick,Kick&Recommended..

:dem: :dem: :dem:

[bkozumplik]

82. I think we need to take it a step further than shunning

I wrote a comment here about how we need to take it a step further, and drop the illusions of partisanship, and commit to winning when we fight these cretins-- but then i erased it--there's an underlying problem before we do that.

Its legal for a corporations and special interests to control our government through lobbyists and money, so thats exactly what we have. Its no perversion, its the actual system we have created. The republicans are the shell coating the corporate interests who buy them (and our side as well!) and exert their interests through them. The interests use the republicans, and the right wing religious bigots and idiots, to push their agendas. They are just tools.

The republicans are the straw man for us to fight with. We need to change the structure of our Representative "democracy" so that corporations and monied interests don't have more ability to shape policy than the people do. The "hippies" and "liburls" are the straw men for the repiglican idiots to fight with. The fighting keeps us busy and distracted from real progress in government. Its shiny red balls for everyone to chase to keep us engaged. (Not that I'm saying we don't need to destroy them, we just need to destroy them at the end once the system is fixed.)

We need to abolish corporate person hood, and eliminate the buying and selling of interests in congress. Until we do that I think that all our efforts, while noble and worthy-- will go to nothing in the end. Thats the only real next path to getting this right.

We need to get our real enemy centered and identified. Then we go get them. Then we win.




***********************************************************************************************************
... I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
... Fuckin' A...
... Ho-hold on, hold on one second. This installation has a substantial dollar value attached to it.
... They can bill me.

[Love Bug]

83. Spot on as usual, Nance!

Time to stop casting our "pearls" before "swine" -- they'll just tramp it all underfoot, anyway.

[BrklynLiberal]

84. The ultimate victory would be if the media would shun them as well....

Great rant Nance..as usual.

[ellaydubya]

87. Absolutely right on!!!!

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting into such eloquent words and strong messages what we all feel so strongly. It is a privilege and a pleasure to read your essays.

Lee Ann Wright

[mzmolly]

88. YOU are fantastic and spot on once again

Nance. :toast:

[guitar man]

89. +1000

Right on the nose, life is too short to spend time trying to reach the unreachable. Let them wallow in their own filth until they look up one day and realize the rest of the world has moved on.

Brilliant work! :thumbsup:

[valerief]

90. Is this a rant against atheists? I don't see atheists as part your The People group. nt

[LeftishBrit]

105. Atheists? I don't see that in it all, and I am an atheist

It seems to be a rant against far right-wingers.

[valerief]

109. Seems you gotta have a religion to be We The People. (Just pointing out a flaw in great rant.)

We are The People. We are Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Greens. We are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims. We are liberal, conservative, progressive, middle-of-the-road – poor/wealthy, male/female, gay/straight, young/old, highly educated/barely educated, urban/suburban/rural dwellers who will continue to recognize each other and work together to ensure that people like you never exert any control over our nation.

[saltpoint]

91. Here's a kick for anybody with enough sense to read this OP instead

of wasting their evening watching cable news shows.

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

92. Amen. (nt)

[tabasco]

94. Thank you.

I enjoyed this article.

[Harry Monroe]

98. Nance, I hope you don't mind, but I just had to share this on Facebook!

And a liberal college professor friend of mine in Austin was inspired to write this in his blog today.
http://booleancontinuum.blogspot.com/2009/11/time-to-shun.html He was inspired by your eloquent words here!! Thanks and keep 'em coming!!

[earcandle]

99. I would love to think this to be true, but I am shunned and I am not an evil one at all. I just

share my music and my pov.  

[earcandle]

102. BUT I LOVE THIS POST AND AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY, as a member of this community.

And I do feel that I am.  I feel it by virtue of being given
the space to be, on observation; not allowed to really
contribute. 

Nor do I seem to be acknowledged in any meaningful way... or I
should say, not often; and mostly, privately. 

Sometimes it happens just by hits showing up on my site. 
Thanks for coming over.  

I really appreciate all of you, every single one of you, even
the asshats, and the fuckheads because you are in a forum
wherein truth can be told, if you dare.  

The worst one get is an ego upset or being ignored: not
invasive at least.  Something from those few that matter. 

Thanks again.  Please try all, to stretch your imagination in
a way which would interpret me as a supporter of this venue.  

Like Nancy says, we are a mixed batch of humanity.

I say that mix means we have a common goodwill that make up
the body of principles originally based on the three offices
of truth called ethos, logos, and pathos, coined for us by
Aristotle, so we might not be fooled by dupery in the market
and forum spaces.  

So allow yourself to be moved by those who follow all three
offices of truth (ethics, logic, and passion) and you will
find that these people are not only trustworthy but fruitful
in their work as the work makes meaning for all of us.  But if
a person who seeks office does not practice these three
truths, then they are served, not the public interest. 
Obvious to Aristotle, blinded by greed. 

So, its true, I am pedantic.  Just don't want people to forget
what we have in common.  What basically holds us together
whether we know it or not... our dna imprints and patterns
made whole based on our principles, rules and regulations.
Those things that protect our social fabric and provide us our
safety nets. These services are dropped out of funding.  We
have no Consumer Protection Agency funding in place and have
no representative at the Health Care Reform Table representing
our voice.  This is not a democracy.  This is fucking
criminal.  Do not look away.  

Do something different. Define maladies and educate in ways
that help. 

societies

my magic glasses: by shonen knife on ear candle radio right
now. 
big sky was next... it takes a while to think the words to
convey, doesn't it? 
now its 9:45 PM and what is playing is:  The Overture to In
Dogs Country by Billy Dechand.

[gtar100]

103. This is the only way to change these people.

But if they won't change and they get in the way, they will need to be moved out of the way.

[grantcart]

104. Actually we may be left with a single weapon

Economic shunning of those who are determined to prop up the dying point of view.


If the Republicans filibuster CO2 curbing we may have to start an economic shunning of every business and every business person who is supporting the death of the planet.

[CreekDog]

106. There can be truth in truisms

:shrug:

[Saphire]

107. We are The People.....just what they can't grasp. This good ol'

USA is more than just old white repug men.


We are The People. We are Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Greens. We are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims. We are liberal, conservative, progressive, middle-of-the-road – poor/wealthy, male/female, gay/straight, young/old, highly educated/barely educated, urban/suburban/rural dwellers who will continue to recognize each other and work together to ensure that people like you never exert any control over our nation.

[CreekDog]

108. Harvey Milk advocated the opposite

he said he'd go anywhere to debate and he would debate anyone.

he thought the key to promoting tolerance was for people to engage the bigots and expose them to people in their midst. engagement was key to changing intolerance.

i think you should reconsider this rant in light of an approach that worked.

[TygrBright]

110. Dang. "You can only recommend threads started in the last 24 hours.")

Deserves to be on the front page of every newspaper, the lead editorial on every radio and TV station, viral on the Internet, leafletted to a fare-thee-well.

Thanks (again, and again, and again!) Nance.

admiringly,
Bright

[ProgressOnTheMove]

111. A magnificent post, very motivational. n/t

[saltpoint]

112. The content of this original post is useful to us because it seeks an

inquiry into the hard-shelled GOP extremism, demands an explanation for that extremism, re-defines far-right scorched-earth politics as subversive, and threatens affirming action despite the hyper-partisan adherents' objections.

It shifts the burden of critical thinking, responsible citizenship, and collaborative personhood onto the people who appear to be struggling with those concepts. May a good number of them be lurking on this site and feel accused.

A kick on the day before a national holiday to keep this one in circulation.

[BikeWriter]

113. Beautiful, fuck'n beautiful, I'm crying, but then I cry about most things now.