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Was Obama being disingenuous when he campaigned against the mandate

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:27 PM
Original message
Was Obama being disingenuous when he campaigned against the mandate
and used it to smash Hillary to smithereens?

Was he really against it or did he realize it was a political loser to support a mandate?

I have to admit I am suspicious on this front. I feel kind of bad for Hillary.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't care how suspicous you are..
I'm suspicious of you and your freakin' mission to start shit.

Hillary and Obama got over the primaries and are working together for our country..but, some are sitting around stirring up shit on the interent for no good reason.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Hey I'm the one who believed Obama when he convinced me a mandate was WRONG.
Who is betrayed here?

And if you had seen how hard I trashed Hillary, you'd know I do feel badly about that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Why, were you telling lies about her?
I pointed out things I didn't like but I wasn't "trashing her".

But, carry on..if that's your mission. Just stir faster, FASTER.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I harped on her for everything. I admit it.
"trash" as in everything I could find, not anything I lied about.

Why would I lie? No point in that in this day of easily accessible info.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. That's right..it was the facts. So it wasn't "trashing"
like the repubs and some on DU do to President Obama.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. " I feel kind of bad for Hillary."
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 07:44 PM by ProSense
Yeah, cause her mandate would have been Constitutional?



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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. No, because "my" guy landed up doing the same thing anyway.
You convinced me its constitutional by the way. Obama and congress can tax for whatever reason they want. But it is yet another promise broken. No mandate he said. No lower and middle class tax increase he said.

Whatever.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Campaign promises always
give way to reality. Always.






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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Reality can give way to the Veto too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. That makes no sense. n/t
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. What difference does it make now?
Seriously, what makes you think anybody here wants to hear you think out loud about shit that matters not now?
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CaliCompadre Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It helps voters know Obama better when it comes to campaign promises. He will run again in 2012 nt
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. 1 year in we're fretting about his 2012 run?
Seriously - that's the lamest reason I've ever heard. Let's be honest here for a change.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes.
I still think going for Health Care instead of Jobs was a huge mistake. I don't want a Republican President who will get us willy nilly into War and I really hope Obama is smart about Yemen. Stretching our military in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and now Yemen is scaring me.

Obama is lucky he has a crappy economy or he'd be having to look at a draft.
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CaliCompadre Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. I believe Obama pretended to dislike the mandate, but was aware that it was necessary
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 07:43 PM by CaliCompadre
He simply chose the better political move: To say that he was against the mandate. I believe he knew he was going to support a mandate if he won.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. That would be a very cynical thing to do.
I wouldn't doubt it though.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Obama was being a politician trying to get elected
Thats what they spend a good deal of their time doing. It was a controversial area he could easily offer a popular alternative to
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Pretty much sums it up.
Obama is no different from any other typical politician. I can't believe that people really thought he would be much different.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
10. No. He realized once in office that it was all he could get out of the Senate.
No politician can deliver anything by themselves. They always have to have the cooperation of the other branch.

Maybe they should put it in those words, since Americans no longer seem to understand the separation of powers. They shouldn't promise to get single payer, they should only promise to support the idea and sign the bill if that's what they get.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Actually- he could have pushed reconciliation- though some will continue to be dishonest about that
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 08:12 PM by depakid
and make excuse after excuse or it.

Here's news: at the end of the day the vast majority of people aren't interested n excuses.

They want to see effective policy that helps to solve their problems without busting the bank or passing along ill gotten gains to groups they (rightly) despise.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. So you believe he doesn't support the mandate then?
Maybe he should say so. I'd sure like to hear it. I still like what he campaigned on much better.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. He'd have to veto the bill
and once in office, that would be hard to do. It would look like refusing to help so many people just on principle.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. I don't think so - if you read DU or Daily Kos
The Edwards and Clinton people used the issue against Obama. Now, I know that these forums do not represent the entire Democratic spectrum, but there were also people like Paul Krugman, who were extremely against Obama's plan because it did not have a mandate.

Do you remember the SC primary debate, where Edwards and Clinton both attacked Obama on this? (Hillary first, then Edwards piling on)

I said then, what I say now, the differences between the three were small and the legislation would be what could pass Congress. I thought then that Ted Kennedy would have more impact than the President - on that I was only part right - I should have added Baucus. (At the time Kennedy and Kerry both said they did not think a mandate could pass Congress. That was before the Business Council came out for the health care plan and they argued for a mandate. Kerry in his 2006 plan had a mandate that became affective only after several years, during which prices would be brought down - so he was consistent and his main adviser was a Kennedy staffer.)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Thanks karyn for bringing some more facts
to bear..instead of just emotions like me :blush:
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Thanks for the compliment
I can understand how people who either supported Obama on no mandates or who were HRC supporters, who might think that position hurt her, might feel.

I really think the domestic positions of all three candidates were all extremely close. Leading both to arguments on things like the mandate and to much of the fight being on personalities and trivial issues. On foreign policy, there was a bigger perception of difference than now appears to be true. (To be honest, I picked Obama by process of elimination, so I had lower expectations. I have been disappointed on foreign policy, but I really think he has done as well and as much as anyone could on the domestic issues. He has an incredible opportunity because there are so many impossible problems facing him.)
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. So you think the mandate is there because we won more Senate seats
than expected and that tilted the argument toward it? Perhaps if we didn't have the 60 seats, Obama expected he would have a much different bill?

I would be much happier with that explanation.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. I think it was the position of the Business Council
I was stunned when Ivan Seidenberg, the CEO of Verizon and head of the Business Council, spoke very positively about healthcare reform and made a very solid case for the need for a public option at a Finance Committee hearing on healthcare - I think in late 2008 - well after the primaries.

I think you have a good point on the 60 seats, but I think people thought that Collins, Snowe, Specter and others would have voted with us. This also shows that Spector's change was needed. There is no way had he stayed to fight in a Republican primary he would have been with us. I assume that everyone thought that the Republicans in the minority would have acted less completely partisan. I read that the norm used to be that bills that had over 55 votes were rarely filibustered, but now they filibuster everything.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Very interesting perspective.
I think we will be hearing more about what happened after all this is over. This brings it all home on what extra seats or the lack thereof will do to legislation. Very tricky.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think he's still opposed to it, actually.
I think he's also in favor of a public option.

However, just like we can't get everything we want, neither can he, and thus, have to live with compromises.
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shadesofgray Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
20. Disingenuous? I'd call it dishonest.
And he would probably deny that he ever campaigned against it.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yeah that public option statement was embarrassing.
But some of the comments above make me wonder that maybe he would have preferred the bill he sold to us. He just got a congress to the left of him on Government power. Funny that.
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shadesofgray Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Honestly, I don't think he cares. He just wants a "win" no matter who it hurts.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Good to know you think that.
:eyes:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. He owes the public an explanation on that.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. Oh my, still bitter? Smashed Hillary to smithereens on the mandate?
I don't think so. Part of her loss was due to her own campaign, lest you forget. I don't even remember mandates being a huge part of the primaries. But if that makes you feel better, go for it.

And above all, Obama is pragmatic. Look at the blow-back from Dems. I think he just wants a bill to pass that will help the most people, and then that can and will be modified.

So many problems, so little time. The fact that we are where we are with health care is huge, imo, considering all the other issues confronting this country.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
31. this is the third time you have posted this.
and noone still cares.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. If you don't care then why are you posting?
To tell me you don't care? lol.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. .
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 09:39 PM by HughMoran
never mind
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. Of course he was.
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hollowdweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I think he knew she was right.

I did. I supported Obama but I thought his health care plan was overly optimistic that people would kick in and buy insurance w/o a mandate.

Turns out he came back to reality on that one and instead decided that business would voluntarily regulate itself if he just lectured them.
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Bodhi BloodWave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. 400 or so pages of regulation on the ins industry points toward that
he does not think they would do so voluntarily >.>
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
39. of course he was
anyone with two brain cells to rub together knew that universal healthcare could not work without a mandate.

And Obama has more than two brain cells - so the only conclusion to be drawn is that he used the "no mandate" line to bash HRC with, knowing full well that he was, at best, being disingenuous.

That he would lie so baldly was one of the main reasons I didn't support him during the primaries, and still one of the main reasons I don't trust him now.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. "That he would lie so baldly...I didn't support him during the primaries" Sounds like bitterness
Granted Obama's position on mandates shifted, but he said before the end of the primary that he would consider it. March 2008:

Mr. Obama says the differential would be far smaller; that he would consider an individual mandate if the numbers left uninsured turned out to be too large; and that imposing a mandate at the outset is unwise because enough people will purchase insurance voluntarily if costs can be brought down.



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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You are completely misreading that statement.
If he passed the plan as he had described it and it didn't bring down the uninsured he would THEN consider it. Not at the get go.

Geez.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. No, you're
refusing to accept the fact that he never said he was completely against mandates. In July, he explained why he changed his mind.

I understand the Committees are moving towards a principle of shared responsibility -- making every American responsible for having health insurance coverage, and asking that employers share in the cost. I share the goal of ending lapses and gaps in coverage that make us less healthy and drive up everyone's costs, and I am open to your ideas on shared responsibility. But I believe if we are going to make people responsible for owning health insurance, we must make health care affordable. If we do end up with a system where people are responsible for their own insurance, we need to provide a hardship waiver to exempt Americans who cannot afford it. In addition, while I believe that employers have a responsibility to support health insurance for their employees, small businesses face a number of special challenges in affording health benefits and should be exempted.

link


Given that the plans meet his goals, you can argue until you're blue in the face that they don't. Your choice.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. I suppose pretty soon you are going to deny he ever campaigned against mandates.
Well you certainly have learned the playbook.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Maybe you should take the time to reread the information provided. n/t
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I read it. I'm just predicting your next move.
And you are pointing to what he said in 2009. Kinda too late for me to make a decision on the primaries right?

Apparently we had no choice anyway. It was all the same regarding the mandate.
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CaliCompadre Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Here's a nasty campaign ad by the Obama campaign against mandates
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 09:48 PM by CaliCompadre
http://www.politico.com/pdf/PPM44_080130_nd_obama_hrc_h...

Krugman called it "destructive."

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/obama-does-... /

Ezra Klein (a mandate supporter) called it "fear-mongering" and short-sided: http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?mo...

This in contrast to a little quote in which Obama is paraphrased in March, after he won a gazillion primaries and caucuses, that he would "consider" this mandate.

Based on that, the OP is very right in saying Obama campaigned against the mandate.

Furthermore, The independent website Politifact.com concluded Obama flip-flopped on the mandate: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009...
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. You need to come to grips with the fact that Obama is the President. n/t
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. Did you pull up the PDF?
"Punishing Families who Can't Afford Health Care to Begin With Just Doesn't Make Sense"
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. you need to come to grips with the fact that you're wrong


instead of posting some cheap shot
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Wrong? The facts are there. Most of this mandate nonsense is driven by bitterness. n/t
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. And people wonder why I believed he was against mandates.
Geez.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. it's the truth.
you can pull your usual "bitterness" cheap argument, but Obama's stand on mandates, a position that was obviously taken for temporary political advantage - was one of the first things that made me turn away from him in the primaries.

Also such a ridiculous position, if he was sincere, made me question whether the guy even understood the issue.
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Vattel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
40. Interesting question.
The quick change of opinion after taking office is suspicious but there is no proof that I have seen that it wasn't an honest reassessment of his position.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
45. probably. don't much care.
politics ain't beanbag.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Yeah some don't.
I did though.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
53. Duck! Sniper Fire!!!
:rofl:
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. LOLLOLLOL.
Oh man we were so tough on her. Damn.
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elana i am Donating Member (626 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-02-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
56. i don't have any reason to believe he was disingenuous...
Edited on Sat Jan-02-10 10:17 PM by elana i am
i do have reason to believe he is doing what he has to do to get HCR passed, including caving on the mandate issue. it was either a mandate or no HCR; some blue dog asshats made sure of that.

on the contrary, i think he's one of the few truly principled politicians we have. i don't agree with his philosophies, (i.e. evereyone has a seat at the table including the "enemy", and diplomacy to the end) but he did stick to his principles.

i'm pragmatic, but i'm not so cynical that i believe every politician who doesn't meet my expectations must be a shyster and a sell-out.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
62. As someone who volunteered for him in the primaries, he absolutely was being disingenuous
And Paul Krugman very correctly called him on it. Clinton and Edwards did some things I'm sure they're not proud of either. Unfortunately, that's politics.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
63. He lied!
And he continues to lie.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-03-10 04:41 AM
Response to Original message
64. Locking...
This is essentially a Primary rehash...Obama is president, HRC is SoS. Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda...will just bring flames.
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