In food crisis, Cuba limits sales so all can eat

[robcon]

Source: Assoc Press

HAVANA - "Cuba is limiting how much basic fruits and vegetables people can buy at farmers' markets, irritating some customers but ensuring there's enough — barely — to go around.

The lines are long and some foods are scarce, but because the government has maintained and even increased rations in some areas, Cubans who initially worried about getting enough to eat now seem confident they won't go hungry despite the destruction of 30 percent of the island's crops by hurricanes Gustav and Ike last month.

"Of the little there is, there is some for everyone," 65-year-old Mercedes Grimau said as queued up behind more than 50 people to buy lettuce, limited to two pounds per person. "I'm not afraid that I will be left without food, but it's a pain to think about all the work we are going to have to go through," Grimau added. "Two or three months ago the farmers markets were well-stocked."

Cuba's government regularly stockpiles beans and other basics, and Economics Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez said authorities are ready to increase the $2 billion they already spend on food imports annually. The world credit crisis won't affect much of those imports because U.S. law forces communist Cuba to use cash to purchase American farm goods. But imports from other countries bought with credit could become more difficult or expensive.

The government is delivering all items distributed each month on the universal ration that provides Cubans with up to two weeks of food — including eggs, beans, rice and potatoes — at very low cost. In some hard-hit provinces, extra food has been added."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081010/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_cuba_food_crisis

---

The food rationing that always goes on in Cuba is up against some bitter reality. I suspect the Cuban government is underplaying this.

[sandnsea]

1. Food is rationed here too

If you have little money, you might not even get lettuce. You'll probably get a slice of bread and 10 beans floating in some water. If you have some food stamps, you'll get some iceburg lettuce, but not the healthier spinach. And so on.

It's all how you look at it.

[WriteDown]

3. Sounds like you do not know what rationing is....

By your logic, folks that eat at Outback are being eating rations compared to those eating at a Prime Steakhouse.

[sandnsea]

5. I don't eat at either

I am rationed to day old meat from the grocery store and grateful to get it.

[Billy Burnett]

10. Get F-ing real

I have been to Cuba and have seen these things ...

No one in Cuba goes hungry. It is in a sense of solidarity with each other that Cubans have set up a system that reflects the 'one for all/ all for one' mentality that Cubans embrace.

No one in Cuba is homeless. There are no children on the streets begging for food anywhere in Cuba. There are no foreclosures in Cuba despite their economic hardships. No schools being closed. As the article indicates, the government subsidized programs have increased during this hard time due to their advanced preparation. Unlike the US gov privatization moves, Cuba is not a for-profit entity. It is a country of living, connected, social, humanity.

Oh yeah, in addition... the Cuban people's socialistic tendencies have resulted in their universal health care and education that are recognized as world class social institutions. Everyone wants it, everyone gets it. Because social equity and fairness is their goal, not personal wealth/debt/or status. Tthe Cuban people have worked hard and suffered greatly to achieve these things despite the US's interference every step of the way.


Viva Cuba!

[Chevy05truck]

16. Starvation is what you get.

Take away the motivation that a capitalist economy brings and live under a "five year plan" and thats what you get.

Cuba has a 12 month growing season. What the fuck? Cant' the idiots figure out how to plant a seed?

I got rid of a 24 foot round swimming pool this Spring and you wouldnt' believe how many vegatables were grown on that little spot of bare ground this year.

Communism removes motivation. This "looking out for each other" bullshit is just that! China started growing when Clinton gave MFN status but the reason it grows is because the Chinese government was smart enough to adopt CAPITALISM! A little ambition is a GOOD THING!

[BlueCollar]

17. you like pepperoni?

[bread_and_roses]

18. Yeah, capitalism is working out great for poor children, the uninsured, workers with stagnant wages

elders who will have no retirement left, the many who already live only on SS who don't know how they'll survive the cold this winter and are wondering if they'll be eating cat food. Last I read, Cuba had a lower infant mortality rate than do we in good old capitalist USA, which is higher than in any other "First World" country.

Capitalism lets us buy more cheap, useless junk from China at the $ store while infants die from poverty and people die from lack of available medical care because health care is a "for profit" (ie, capitalist) system.

Infant mortality and deaths from lack of medical care are REAL measures of human well-being. I can't even imagine what measures you are using.

And in case you hadn't noticed, capitalism has taken a bit of a hit these last few weeks.

[Billy Burnett]

19. So, if Cuba had a system like the US or China hurricanes wouldn't hit or destroy Cuba's crops?

Your post reflects the near total ignorance about Cuba that so many of DU's Cuba experts exhibit.

` ` `

Posted by Chevy05truck --> "Communism removes motivation."

Really? Perhaps you might want to read this...

Learn from Cuba

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

Please tell us how it is that capitalism has motivated the US to achieve these things? (Clue: the US hasn't achieved these things.)

---

How's this for lack of motivation?

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/emergencies/2004_tsunami/background/cubalessons

Oxfam America recently studied the experience of Cuba in its development of disaster prevention and mitigation programs.  Situated in the Caribbean Sea, Cuba frequently stands in the way of serious hurricanes.  While its neighbors are battered, losing lives and property, Cuba is unusually good at withstanding these calamities, and suffers much fewer dead.
Oxfam’s report, entitled Weathering the Storm: Lessons in Risk Reduction in Cuba cites a number of attributes of Cuba’s risk reduction program that can be applied by other countries.  Three in particular are transferable to Asia and other regions:

• Disaster Preparedness: Cuba was especially good at mobilizing entire communities to develop their own disaster preparations.  This involves mapping out vulnerable areas of the community, creating emergency plans, and actually simulating emergencies so people can practice evacuations and other measures designed to save lives.  When disaster strikes, people know what to do.

• Commitment of Resources: Cuba’s strong central government prioritizes resources for its civil defense department.  This helps the country to build up a common understanding of the importance of saving lives, and the citizens trust that their contributions to the government are well used for this purpose.  Their collaboration on developing emergency plans helped build confidence in the government, so people trust in the plan they helped develop. 

• Communications: The communications system for emergencies in Cuba builds on local resources.  Using local radio stations and other media to issue warnings on potential hazards also reinforces the disaster preparations.  Since the local population is already involved in mapping risks and creating emergency plans, they are more inclined to act on emergency bulletins.  Good communications, packaged simply, and built on existing, commonly used resources, is another way to build trust in disaster preparations.

Cuba is a unique example.  There is a strong central government committed to protecting all its citizens, even the poorest and most isolated who are typically the most at risk.  The most common natural disaster in Cuba is a hurricane, a threat visible for days and even weeks in advance.  Yet building a culture of disaster preparedness, and involving local communities in mitigating risks, are strategies that can be applied in many other places, regardless of how rich or poor a country might be.

---

And then there are many more examples of the work of "idiots" in Cuba ... here.

[ronnie624]

20. "...despite the destruction of 30 percent of the island's crops

by hurricanes Gustav and Ike last month."

And, as usual, wingnuts tend to forget about the illegal trade embargo imposed by the U.S.

[bean fidhleir]

22. If ever I get the chance to shape a socioeconomic system, I'm going to

create a socially-oriented one, of course, but I'm also going to see that capitalists can thrive. Or at least can thrive if there are enough people who like the idea of supporting anti-social practices. Me, I don't think there are that many, really, because capitalism has *always* relied on a mix of force and fraud to stay in power. Few people choose to support exploitative systems.

So I'd require that their goods be labelled, so that people could make truly informed decisions.

I think we'd pretty soon see a lot of disillusioned, hungry capitalists, aware for the first time in their lives how completely fraudulent their religion's claims are.

[xxqqqzme]

27. did you have 2 hurricanes

sweep across your back yard and destroy you lovely little garden?

We had more corn on the cob than we could eat this summer from our back yard. Gave much of it away. I'm looking at tomatoes still ripening, as well as eggplant. I recently planted broccoli, spinach & brussels sprouts. But then no hurricanes swept through my back yard either.

Oh BTW, the government of China adopted capitalism for a select few party loyalists. The remainder of the country lives in poverty. In fact, poverty has increased in China since the almighty 'free' market was given free rein.

Sort of like what has happened in the US in the last 8 years.

[Billy Burnett]

30. Since you gave away much of your corn, you must be demotivated to grow more.

I mean, if you didn't sell your corn for a nice profit what's the use in growing it only to give it to someone who would like or need it?


:sarcasm:

[lostnfound]

35. That hits the nail on the head! Mindset is, "I am only motivated by money".

How demeaning it is to think this way.

[Judi Lynn]

29. You'd have so much more to say if you knew what you were talking about.

Even the slightest bit of research would assist you in realizing the vast differences in conditions in ALL countries, and the awareness each country is wildly different, especially tiny nations like Cuba which are surrounded by water, were slave colonies, were under total control of vicious, bloodthirsty dictators who ran death squads, and tortured dissenters, hung them from lamp poles, or threw them into the streets, or in trees as warnings to others, all under the benevolent eye of the United States who then, once the people revolted, slapped an extraterratorial embargo on them, which pressured other countries into avoiding trade with them if they also hoped to trade with the United States, etc., etc., etc.

If you had the vaguest idea of what has happened between the US and Cuba to keep those people subservient to US interests to their own detriment you couldn't be simple minded enough to make stupid claims like that. Unmotivated? Really? With a little information under your belt you'd have something substantial to offer.

Learn about the subject FIRST, then offer your views. Idle yammering about how superior greed is to the common welfare is odd.



Before _Bush banned even the few opportunities which were available to selected Americans to go to Cuba, there were specialized individuals and groups going there to study Cuba's breakthroughs in organiponicos, organic gardens which were springing up all over the island starting in the 1990's. They brought back photos and wrote articles which can be located easily in any search by anyone with the "ambition" to advance himself beyond the profound ignorance he wallows in eating only propaganda and calling it "knowledge."

~snip~
For the vast majority of urban Cubans since the Revolution, food came from a grocery store or supermarket. Growing food was generally considered a part of campesino (peasant) life, left behind on the move to the city. To encourage small scale food production in urban areas, the government gave unused land to anyone who wanted to cultivate it. Havana, with a fifth of the island's population, was a priority area for urban food production. The provincial Ministry of Agriculture (MinAgri) set up an urban agriculture department to give support to the new gardeners, which was delivered through the activity of the MinAgri outreach workers (extensionists) based in each of the city's municipalities, and through direct support given to community efforts. The department was also responsible for the shops which supplied seeds, tools and sundries to the growers. The three types of garden supported were known as huertos, organoponicos and autoconsumos

This all created, almost overnight, a new urban gardening culture. By the mid 1990's there were over 28,000 huertos in Havana city province, run by 50-100,000 individuals. Some of this new army of gardeners could remember farming with their parents 35 years ago, before they moved to Havana. For many it was an entirely new occupation.

Huerto is Spanish for 'kitchen garden' and these are the equivalent of allotments or smallholdings in Britain. They may be individual, family or collective and some are attached to institutions such as day care centres and schools. They range in size from postage stamp to two or more hectares. Garden clubs are comparable to allotment societies and may be a gathering of gardeners in a particular locality or may be the overseers of a large patch, a parcela, divided into a number of huertos. There are more than 19,000 individuals organised into more than 800 clubs throughout Havana.

Auto-consumos are horticultural units attached to colleges, hospitals and factories. The workers may be part or full time, working by choice or placed there as a disciplinary punishment by their workplace. The primary object is to produce food for the occupants/workers' lunches.

Organopónicos originally were defunct hydroponic units which had been re-filled with composted sugar cane waste and used to grow vegetables and herbs organically. The success of this conversion led to new ones being constructed As the ground itself is not cultivated they could be built on any waste land including old car parks and building sites. Some are state owned, others are cooperatives. The vegetables produced are sold to the local communities, on-site or at the farmers' markets. Beyond quota, the profits of the state-run units are split between the state and the workers. 'Organopónico' has become the general name for an urban market garden, with beds raised by mulching as well as by containing the soil.

http://www.cosg.org.uk/greencuba.htm

Cuba’s Second Revolution
by Will Raap

~snip~
Organiponico are organic farms and gardens of a few thousand square feet to several acres located in urban areas. Vacant lots, old parking lots, abandoned building sites, spaces between roads, any available site (even rooftops and balconies) were taken over by thousands of new urban farmers trying to feed themselves and make some money.

In Havana alone, 30,000 residents tend 8,000 community gardens and small farms producing vegetables, fruit, eggs, medicinal plants, honey, and such livestock as rabbits and poultry. These urban farmers produce 30% of the city’s vegetables and perishable food. All this produce is organic; chemical pesticides for agriculture are not allowed within the city limits.

Outside of Havana the Organiponico movement is also growing rapidly with impressive results. In 1999 urban agriculture produced 46% of Cuba’s fresh vegetables, 38% of non-citrus fruit, and 13% of its roots and tubers. The government supports this movement by making land available, by allowing relatively unrestricted free-market sales of the food, and by supporting organic research centers that are making impressive advances in biofertilizers and biopesticides. Cuba leads the developing world in small-scale composting, organic soil reclamation, irrigation and crop rotation research, animal powered traction (oxen) and other innovative practices.

More:
http://www.greens.org/s-r/38/38-06.html



Organoponico plaza, Havana, Cuba. Photograph: James Pagram

~snip~
Cuba's organic revolution
The collapse of the Soviet Union forced Cuba to become self-reliant in its agricultural production. The country's innovative solution was urban organic farming, the creation of 'organoponicos'. But will it survive a change of government?
Ed Ewing reports
guardian.co.uk, Friday April 04 2008 01:02 BST \

when the USSR collapsed in 1990/91, Cuba's ability to feed itself collapsed with it. "Within a year the country had lost 80% of its trade," explains the Cuba Organic Support Group (COSG). Over 1.3m tonnes of chemical fertilisers a year were lost. Fuel for transporting produce from the fields to the towns dried up. People started to go hungry. The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation (UNFAO) estimated that calorie intake plunged from 2,600 a head in the late 1980s to between 1,000 and 1,500 by 1993.

Radical action was needed, and quickly. "Cuba had to produce twice as much food, with less than half the chemical inputs," according to the COSG. Land was switched from export crops to food production, and tractors were switched for oxen. People were encouraged to move from the city to the land and organic farming methods were introduced.

"Integrated pest management, crop rotation, composting and soil conservation were implemented," says the COSG. The country had to become expert in techniques like worm composting and biopesticides. "Worms and worm farm technology is now a Cuban export," says Dr Stephen Wilkinson, assistant director of the International Institute for the Study of Cuba.

Thus, the unique system of organoponicos, or urban organic farming, was started. "Organoponicos are really gardens," explains Wilkinson, "they use organic methods and meet local needs."

"Almost overnight," says the COSG, the ministry of agriculture established an urban gardening culture. By 1995 Havana had 25,000 huertos – allotments, farmed by families or small groups – and dozens of larger-scale organoponicos, or market gardens. The immediate crisis of hunger was over.

Now, gardens for food take up 3.4% of urban land countrywide, and 8% of land in Havana. Cuba produced 3.2m tonnes of organic food in urban farms in 2002 and, UNFAO says, food intake is back at 2,600 calories a day.

Organoponico plaza
A visit to Havana's largest organoponico, the three-hectare Organoponico Plaza, which lies a stone's throw from the city's Plaza de la Revolución and the desk of Raul Castro, confirms that the scheme is doing well. Rows of strikingly neat irrigated raised beds are home to seasonal crops of lettuces, spring onions, chives, garlic and parsley.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/apr/04/organics.food?gusrc=rss&feed=environment



Revisted: Cuba's Urban Vegetable Farms

~snip~
He gestured to the rows of vegetables--beets, spinach, chives, planted in neat beds. As we made our way through the herb garden, he then started explaining the benefits of the herbs to me: siempre viva is for headaches, chamomile helps with skin problems, anise is to give you a strong stomach. Or, as Nestor put it, "Le da animo." It gives you spirit.

We stopped under the shade of fruit trees, where he showed me a passionfruit, still green on the tree, and then a noni fruit, pale yellow and naturally pocked. He picked a few small ripe bananas for me to try.

"If this wasn't a garden, it would be filled with garbage. Instead, all year long we have food for the people," Nestor said, then added the distinctly Cuban phrase, "Tiene que resolver."

"Resolver" has been Cuban's battle cry, chant, groan since the Special Period. It means to find a way to survive, to make the impossible, possible. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1989, Cuba lost 80 percent of its imports. Known as the "The Special Period," government food rations were cut in half, public buses didn't run, and blackouts rolled through the cities. Hoping to crush the government, the United States tightened the embargo by passing the Cuban Democracy Act (1992) that prevents the docking at a U.S. port of any ship that has docked in Cuba six months prior or that plans to visit Cuba within six months after. This further reduced food and medicine reaching the island.

More:
http://www.citydirt.net/2008/05 /

Organic Farming Feeds A Nation
by Renee Kjartan

A recent report shows that organic farming--often considered an insignificant part of the food supply--can feed an entire country.

Titled "Cultivating Havana: Urban Agriculture and Food Security in the Years of Crisis," the report found that in Cuba, many of the foods people eat every day are grown without synthetic fertilizers and toxic pesticides. The author, Catherine Murphy, works with the Institute for Food and Development Policy/Food First. Based in Oakland, CA, the group works for sustainable farming.

How did Cuba's organic food movement begin? It took a severe crisis for this to happen.

Before the revolution that threw out dictator Fulgencio Batista in 1959, and to some extent during the years of Soviet support for Cuba, the island followed a typical pattern of colonial food production: It produced luxury export crops while importing food for its own people. In 1990 over 50 percent of Cuba's food came from imports. Says the report: "In the Caribbean, food insecurity is a direct result of centuries of colonialism that prioritized the production of sugar and other cash crops for export, neglecting food crops for domestic consumption." In spite of efforts by the revolutionary government to correct this situation, Cuba continued in this mold until the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1989.

The withdrawal of Soviet aid meant that 1,300,000 tons of chemical fertilizers, 17,000 tons of herbicides and 10,000 tons of pesticides could no longer be imported, according to the report.

One of Cuba's responses to the shock was to develop "urban agriculture," intensifying the previously established National Food Program, which aimed at taking thousands of poorly utilized areas, mainly around Havana, and turning them into intensive vegetable gardens. Planting in the city instead of only in the countryside reduced the need for transportation, refrigeration and other scarce resources.

Vegetable beds are raised with rock supports, taking advantage of local resources to protect the beds from being washed away during heavy summer rains. Producing food next to housing developments (note bananas in the background) increases food security and creates jobs for those living nearby.
The plan succeeded beyond anyone's dreams. By 1998 there were over 8,000 urban farms and community gardens run by over 30,000 people in and around Havana.

Urban agriculture is now a "major element of the Havana cityscape," the Food First report says, and the model is now being copied throughout the country with production growing at 250-350 percent per year.

More:
http://www.wafreepress.org/46/organic_farming.html

ETC., ETC., ETC.

On edit, adding link to article I just found, engaging photos:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_3Kho1cjE4lU/RbfP_RlYEWI/AAAAAAAAAEI/Qt5ZZRPxRbQ/s400/Cuba+12+2006+HWB1+147.jpg

Lettuce... lots and lots of lettuce...

http://bp2.blogger.com/_3Kho1cjE4lU/RbeK_RlYEEI/AAAAAAAAAA8/wL5gs8Dw6lY/s400/Cuba+12+2006+HWB2+208.jpg

Photo by Devlin de Vries.

We visited an organiponico (collectively owned farm) and saw how Cubans use organic methods to grow the produce that provide so much of the nutrition for the nation. In this part of the farm, there was lots and lots of lettuce... and a dog conducting a quality assurance check.

More:
http://www.hwbrigade.blogspot.com/

[Billy Burnett]

31. The maligning of Cubans as

The cruel statement has the feel of the RW commentary regarding Katrina's N.O. victims.

~~~~~~~~~~

Yea O Lord, let the free market sort things out and fuck those who were stupid enough to be victims. :sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

32. Pure Freepspeak, Billy Burnett. Creepy, isn't it? n/t

[Judi Lynn]

34. Here's an interesting item I just stumbled across, during my little search for some info.

to assist the poster in getting some actual information about what has been happening in Cuba, for chrissakes.

This material was written in French, so I put it through the google translation tool. It's possible to get a good sense of the original. This is really interesting:

The energy of the community: How Cuba survived peak oil.

FromThe Wilderness.com, 26 February 2006.

Havana, Cuba.

In Organiponico of Alamar, a community farming project, a workers' collective runs a large urban farm, a market and restaurant. The hand tools and labor have pushed the oil-consuming machines. Fertilizers are produced by earthworms and composting. Water is saved by an irrigation system to drip and the community is supplied by a variety of healthy products.

In other communities in Havana, where the shortage of land is felt to carry out projects of this magnitude, people have created gardens on land parking and planted vegetables on the roofs of houses and patios. Since the early 90s, the urban agriculture movement has swept the whole island and the capital is about to ensure food self-sufficiency.

A small group of Australians participated in these efforts and visited the island in 1993 to teach techniques of permaculture, a system based on sustainable agriculture much more economical in terms of energy consumption. The need for agriculture at the heart of cities began in the fall of the Soviet Union and the loss to Cuba of over 50% on imported oil, much of its food and 85% its economic exchanges. Transport were paralyzed, hunger made his appearance and the average Cuban lost about 15 kgs. (30 books - ndt) In fact, when it all began, it was by necessity. People began to grow vegetables wherever they could, "says a guide to the team come shoot a documentary in 2004 to show how Cuba had survived the shortage of oil.

The team comprised, among others, members of The Community Solution (Solution Community), an NGO based in Yellow Springs, Ohio, which provides training on peak oil (peak oil: http://fr.wikipedia.org / wiki / Peak Oil) - the moment when world oil production will begin its irreversible decline. Some analysts believe that the phenomenon could occur in the next ten years, which would give Cuba the status of a model to follow. "We wanted to discover what was among the Cuban people and Cuban culture that allowed them to survire in these times so difficult," said Pat Murphy, executive director of Community Solution. "Cuba has much to show us on how to manage the energy crisis. "

The shortage of oil has not only transformed Cuban agriculture. The country has also turned to small units of renewable energy and has developed an efficient public transport, while maintaining its health system through a policy of prevention and implementation of solutions that can save the limited resources.

The era that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union is known in Cuba as the Special Period. Cuba lost 80% of its export markets and imports fell by 80%. The GNP fell by more than a third. "Try to imagine a plane suddenly lose its reactors. It was really a crash, "said Mario Jorge, a Cuban economist. A crash that plunged Cuba into a state of shock. The outages were frequent, up to 16 hours a day. The daily caloric intake of Cubans fell by a third.

According to a report on Cuba prepared by Oxfam, an international NGO humanitarian assistance, "in the cities, buses not running more, generators can produce more electricity, factories not turned over. For many Cubans, if not most, the main daily occupation was to find enough to eat. "

Partly due to the embargo persistent <# http://vdedaj.club.fr/cuba/blocus.html index> United States, but also the loss of foreign markets, Cuba could not import enough food. Moreover, no alternative to their highly mechanized agriculture and consumer of energy, agricultural production fell so sharply.

Cubans have begun, by necessity, to grow organic vegetables, to develop biological pesticides and fertilizers alternatives to petroleum products, and they have also begun to vary their diet. Because they could not drive their old cars, they started walking, biking, to take the bus, to carpool. "There are infinite small solutions," said Roberto Sanchez of the Foundation for Nature and Humanity in Cuba. "Crises or changes or problems can trigger these solutions are mainly adaptation measures. We adapt. "

A new agricultural revolution

Cubans are also in the process of replacing their machines from agricultural animal traction, and gardens installed in urban areas reduce transport. It is estimated today that 50% of the vegetables consumed in Havana are produced inside the city, while other Cuban cities and towns provide between 80 and 100% of their needs. In moving towards gardening, individuals and neighborhood organizations took the initiative to make an inventory of unused land, to clean and cultivate.

When Australians specialized Permaculture arrived in Cuba, they established the first pilot project of permaculture with a grant of $ 26,000 granted by the Cuban government. This initiative came the center and pilot urban permaculture of the Foundation for Nature and Humanity in Havana. "With this project, people in the neighborhood could see what was possible on roofs and patios," said Carmen Lopez, director of urban permaculture center, standing on the roof of the center in the midst of vineyards, Plants in pots and compost bins made from tires.

Since then, the movement is spreading rapidly through the neighborhoods of Havana. So far, the center of urban permaculture led by Lopez has trained more than 400 people from the neighborhood permaculture and distributes a monthly publication, "El permacultor." "Not only the community has discovered permaculture" Lopez said, "but we also learned about the community, giving help where necessary. "

One permaculture student, Nelson Aguila, an engineer converted to agriculture, producing food for his neighborhood in his garden installed on the roof. On a few dozen square meters, it raises rabbits, chickens and cultivates many large pots of plants. Circulating freely, there are gerbils (a bug? - Translator's note ignorant) that consume the waste and rabbits are in turn an important source of protein. "Things change," said Sanchez. "This is a local economy. Elsewhere, people do not know their neighbors. They do not know their name. People did not say hello. Here it is different. "

Since the transition from a farming-based petrochemicals to a culture and organic gardening, Cuba now consumes 21 times less pesticide than before the Special Period. They managed to produce large-scale pesticides and organic fertilizers, and export some to other Latin American countries.

Although the transition to organic production and animal traction was an obligation, the Cubans now find benefits. "One of the good sides of the crisis was a return to animal traction," said Miguel Coyula, a community development. "Not only do we save oil, but more (the horse) does not tamp the soil like a tractor, and their hooves returning the land. " "The Cuban agricultural, conventional, the" green revolution ", has never managed to feed the people" said Sanchez. "Yields were important, but agriculture was oriented culture of plantations. We exports of lemons, tobacco, sugar and imports commodities. Thus, the system, even in its best days, has never managed to meet the needs. "

Drawing conclusions from this experience in permaculture, Sanchez said "you must follow the natural cycles, so you put to your service, instead of working against nature. To work against nature, we must spend huge amounts of energy.

http://forum.decroissance.info/viewtopic.php?t=5547&sid=a6804af5b531e2902299b6eff28dd4d1









Organiponico workers

[KamaAina]

68. Can't the "idiots" figure out how to stop a hurricane?

Go ahead. Plant all the seeds you want. We'll see just how much is left after your little garden is raked by 110+ mph winds. Twice. :grr:

edit: spelling

[Billy Burnett]

69. Amazing isn't it? Denigrating victims is just so repuglicant.

So many DU Cuba experts. So little time.

[earth mom]

33. Great post! We could learn a lot from Cuba if only we weren't so greedy. nt

[DangerDave921]

75. I was so greedy yesterday!

I had a big breakfast, but then a few hours later there I was eating a few pieces of cheese as a snack. And then around Noon I ate a sandwich. Greedy ol' me! And then around 6 pm I had some chicken and stuffing and potatoes. Oh, and some peas too. I didn't need the peas I guess. But you know how greedy I can be!

[Judi Lynn]

77. Why would you imagine this is worth posting here? n/t

[DangerDave921]

79. Because

I disagree with the puerile conclusion that greed is holding us back from being Cuba. First off, we americans are not greedy. Second, Cuba is not a model we should emulate. And third, the Cubans have not come together voluntarily as a commune to live in peace. They have the system imposed on them by an unelected dictator.

The entire premise is fundamentally flawed so I thought I would use humor as a means of making my point.

[Judi Lynn]

80. You should have waited until you could manage some humor.

Cuba has elections, and DU'ers have been there during election time.

You need to spend some time researching the subject honestly before presenting yourself as an authority.

Cuba made the decision to wrest its own control from US-backed bloody, death squad favoring bloody scum like Batista in the late 1950's. That was a very CLEAR indication of the direction they wanted their government to take.

The ejected scum took their poisonous, filthy, violent politics to Miami, where they set up shop, and created the vicious environment rapidly which got the FBI naming them America's "Terror Capital." Small wonder the Cubans wanted them the #### out of Cuba.

[DangerDave921]

81. elections???

You have to be kidding. That's like Saddam Hussein telling Dan Rather that Iraq had elections. Thanks for the laugh.

Do you really believe Castro has been freely and fairly elected for this long? I'd be curious which candidate came the closest to beating him. How many votes did that guy get -- 2%?

LOL

[Billy Burnett]

82. If you laugh in a vacuum of knowledge, does it make a sound?

I used to say similar things about Cuba, when I was young. They just rolled off of my tongue and out of my mouth. Ha ha. I didn't know shit about it. Neither did anybody else, so we just acted like an echo chamber with little critical thinking or research involved. Ha ha. Why bother? Ha ha. Everybody agreed. LOL Sort of like the uninformed McCain/Palin zealots all repeating the same talking points.

Then, I went to Cuba. :wow:

It was then that I learned just how deep the anti Cuba propaganda is. I've been back several times, even during the final elections of their Parliament (National Assembly). There were campaign posters and information on all of the candidate platforms and positions, even those critical of the government, Castro, and the system itself, at the local election office in every precinct. Any citizen can be nominated and run for office at any level of their government. I was just as surprised as most any Cubaphobe to learn this, and see it myself.


An Overview of the Cuban Electoral System
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ001.html



There are are couple of other DUers who have been to Cuba during different elections, including Dr. Mika - who has posted, several times, a link to the list of candidates who ran against Fidel Castro in his district from a Cuban election tracking website. Maybe someone has that saved, or can search for it?

[DangerDave921]

87. Ignorant or willfully blind???

I've been doing a lot of reading this morning on Cuba and elections. I don't want to be accused of not diong my homework. Cuba does not have free and fair elections. First off, there is ONE party that is legally allowed to operate in Cuba -- the communist party. What a surprise! So if you don't subscribe to the communist party, then you're out of luck. I guess you can try to run a campaign but you would be violating the law. And how excited would most voters be to publicly support an illegal party?

I've read about the local grass-roots stuff, but it seems that it is a lot of show without substance. Again, you have one party to choose from. And in the second phase of the elections, I read that there was just one candidate for each spot. Some choice!

And I still can't find anything that talks about Castro actually campaigning against a serious candidate. Has he ever actually run for office since 1959? I don't mean just being on the ballot for appearance's sake. I mean actually running against a legitimate candidate. Do Cubans actually vote for Castro or is he selected by a government body?

Also, the government runs the media too. That also keeps the public restricted in their choices.

[Billy Burnett]

93. Good question.

It is understandable that most Americans jump to false conclusions. Information without an anti Cuba bias is hard to find. The requirement to be a communist is a canard.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

Last time I was there under 20% of the Assembly were members of the communist party.

The final phase of the Cuba electoral process you mention is the Ratification election. This final step ensures that the candidate who won the election in a multi candidate election is ratified by at least 50% +1 of the voters in their district. One can't hold a seat in the Assembly without the support of a majority in their district. The Ratification election ensures this. If the elected candidate can't achieve the 50% +1 threshold, then a new election is called - starting over from the nomination process.


There are alternate parties in Cuba, contrary to uninformed rhetoric. Here are some examples. There are dozens of other small alternate parties,

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

[DangerDave921]

96. Thanks, but

Does Castro ever have serious competition in running for re-election? I can't imagine he does, since he's been in power since 1959. Maybe this is my bias showing, but I'd still be curious to find out if he has ever faced any legitimate candidate for office, and what the voting breakdown was for the two candidates.

I agree that solid news is hard to get from Cuba. Maybe if they didn't control the media that wouldn't be so hard!

[Billy Burnett]

98. IF you had really done your homework...

... then you would know that Castro has been elected president of Cuba from 1976.

That was the year that Cuba launched a complete redo of their electoral system to a parliamentary system (like most of the world's democracies).

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo
http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

(Thanks to Dr Mika for these links)

[DangerDave921]

100. I mean REAL elections

Sadam Hussein was elected too. Big deal. There are elections and then there are REAL elections. You know, with a genuine opponent. And with real choices. Have the Cuban people ever had a real chance to vote for an opposing candidate? I think not.

[Billy Burnett]

102. I guess that you'll have to go to see for yourself.

Like me, that's what it took to see the truth. Simply placing capital text and the typical "I think not" statements isn't real fact based discussion.

So, I guess that you'll (assuming that you're American) have to wait until you achieve REAL freedom to be able to go.


Now, back to the topic at hand: rationing ...

www.granma.cu/ingles/2008/octubre/mar14/Statement.html

Cuba did not ask for help from anybody, much less the United States. Cuba did ask the government of that country to allow us to buy from American companies, under the same conditions in which these companies sell on the world market, resources needed for the country’s reconstruction. Many were the voices in the United States, including those of presidential candidates, Democrat and Republican members of Congress, influential newspapers, NGOs and humanitarian organizations, that asked the American administration not just to lift the blockade, but something simpler: to relax its Draconian measures for a few months, including the travel ban on Cubans living in that country and the ban on remittances to their relatives in Cuba, something that, in their opinion, could have an impact on aid to the Cuban people.

Meanwhile, the government of the United States reiterated that under no circumstances would it relax the application of its criminal policy. There is no more eloquent example of the real objective of the blockade: an attempt to destroy the Revolution by causing "hunger and despair" and to undermine the support of the people, as recognized by that government on April 6, 1960. That policy, which clearly typifies the international crime of genocide, will soon observe half a century of existence.

In the face of the stubbornness and arrogance of the United States government, Cuba will continue moving forward. Fifty years of aggression and economic warfare inflicted by the greatest power known to history will never crush the will of our people. In the harsh circumstances in which we are struggling today, we shall continue working for the country's recovery so that we may conquer, as Martí desired, all justice.

The National Assembly of the Peoples’ Power of the Republic of Cuba calls on parliamentarians throughout the world to demand that the Congress and the government of the United States unconditionally lift the genocidal blockade and respect the legitimate and sovereign right of the Cuban people to build their own destiny.

[Judi Lynn]

115. It's almost that time, Billy Burnett, for yet another vote condemning the embargo at the UN:

It's a perrenial event, the world's nearly unanimous statement of condemnation of the U.S. extraterritorial embargo, its economic war on the people of Cuba, an ancient weapon against the island since 1893, as announced in the Breckenridge memo by the Undersecretary of war, John C. Breckenridge. What a vile action against a tiny, tiny country, so small by comparison to the colossal US:

U.N. Again Urges U.S. To End Cuba Embargo
Annual Resolution Is Mainly Symbolic; Cuban Government Hails Motion As A Victory
UNITED NATIONS, Oct. 25, 2007

(AP) The U.N. General Assembly voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to urge the United States to end its 46-year-old trade embargo against Cuba after its foreign minister accused the U.S. of stepping up its "brutal economic war" to new heights and vowed to "never surrender."

"The blockade had never been enforced with such viciousness as over the last year," Felipe Perez Roque told the assembly, accusing U.S. President George W. Bush's administration of adopting "new measures bordering on madness and fanaticism" that have not only hurt Cuba but interfered with its relations with at least 30 countries.

It was the 16th straight year that the 192-member world body approved a resolution calling for the U.S. economic and commercial embargo against Cuba to be repealed "as soon as possible."

Delegates in the 192-member General Assembly chamber burst into applause when the vote in favor of the resolution flashed on the screen - 184 to 4 with 1 abstention. That was a one-vote improvement over last year's vote of 183 to 4 with 1 abstention.

In addition to the U.S., Israel, Palau and the Marshall Islands voted against the resolution while Micronesia abstained. Albania, El Salvador and Iraq did not vote.

The annual vote came less than a week after Bush delivered his first major address on Cuban policy in four years, attacking Cuba's government and challenging the international community to help the people of the communist island shed Fidel Castro's rule and become a free society.

Perez Roque called the vote the international community's answer to Bush's speech.

"I think it is an historic victory. It is an Olympic record in the General Assembly," the Cuban foreign minister said in an Associated Press interview. "Today, the international community have expressed their support to the Cuban right to be an independent nation, to be respected in its right to self-determination."

More:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/30/world/main3432040.shtml

Here's a photo of Osvaldo Dorticós Torrado, by the way, on the right, at a function at the National Medical college.

[Popol Vuh]

145. Maybe if you paid attention to something other than our so-called media

I wonder if Bush or Clinton is ever received with as much enthusiasm as can be seen in these two video clips. Gee I wonder why all these people throughout the world look so happy and excited to see this man? Gee I wonder why none of our leaders are received this well.

Advance the first clip to the 1:30 point. The second clip just let play from the beginning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WIawcv_1cQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx7wK_c8bQg



I think you need to educate yourself more on the real world. No offense intended.

[Popol Vuh]

138. You just demonstrated your ignorance about U.S. foreign policy

"First off, we americans are not greedy."

If that were the case. Why are we in Iraq? Why have we all over the world imposed/supported dictatorships servile to U.S. (corporate) interests? Why is it then that whenever these (brown/black skin) countries decide that their country's natural resources should belong to and benefit them and not U.S. corporate interests they are then categorized as rogue nations?

Why do I see commercials and infomercials on TV curtailing to our greed like how to make a million dollars on ebay or $0 money down and flip that house for big (greedy) profits? Or slogans like "I want it ALL and I want it NOW!" Etc.

Perhaps you could read a book like this and answer what the motivating factor was/is if not greed. Keeping our heads in the sand about reality isn't healthy.

[WriteDown]

59. Good for you....

I have often said that Cuba is neither a slum or a paradise. The truth lies somewhere in between. If you are so enamored with it though, you should emigrate there.

[Billy Burnett]

60. Not an unusual RW response

Your comment is much like the "why don't you move to France' knee-jerk commentary to opponents of Bush policy by the RW during Bushco's buildup for war in Iraq.

Why does it not surprise me?

[WriteDown]

61. Not an unusual nonsensical response....

I noticed you did not bother to even address the question. I have spent plenty of time in Latin America and hope to move there when I retire. Those that praise it for what it is not make me question their motivations though.

[Billy Burnett]

65. What question did you ask? I saw no question in your post.

Maybe if you posed an actual question there might be a reply. I saw none. Just the disgruntled musing of a RW talking point ... 'if you like it so much why don't you move to ________'.

[WriteDown]

66. Ah.....

you're right. I phrased it as a statement when I should have asked "why don't you move there?"

[Billy Burnett]

67. I just might.

But, if I did do that, the US government would prevent me from visiting my friends and relatives in the US then.

Why should it be that way?

Nonetheless, my interests are in helping the good Cuban people, and in this time of greatest need in Cuba when Cubans are having to ration their few resources - it's not an appropriate time to move there only to place more burden on their infrastructures.


For those who can ...


Cuba hurricane relief links.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=7636&mesg_id=7636

[WriteDown]

91. That's cool....

Unfortunately, when it comes to Cuba, that is every U.S. politician's policy. i have thought about moving to Guatemala, Panama or Nicaragua since I still have friends down there.

[NeoConsSuck]

159. The old 'Love it or Leave It' statement?

what are you, back in the sixties?

Are you *sure* you're on the correct political discussion board?

[DangerDave921]

74. small trade-off

Just don't criticize the government, or publish any work of art that is critical of Castro, or say anything controversial -- and all will be well.

[Judi Lynn]

76. Please post any link you've got, for the education of DU'ers who need to know more.

No doubt many DU'ers who've been there multiple times could benefit from learning about it, just like the rest of us, including Cuba travellers from Canada, Latin America, Europe, Australia who post at D.U. Everyone needs to know more about Cuba, the way you do.

Too bad our own government won't allow the general mass of the country to come and go, the way Cuban Americans do. We'd be able to see this terrifying repression up close and personal, for ourselves.

[DangerDave921]

78. tourism

Hey I would like to be able to go there. My guess is that the folks you mention who go there see a different version of cuban life than those who live it.

And maybe it's just me, but when people risk their lives in tiny boats on the high seas to get out of a country, I tend to think there is something awfully repressive about that country. And there are plenty of tales of political prisoners, artist prisoners, censorship, etc. But I'm not going to argue with you. You have decided Cuba is a wonderful place so enjoy it.

[Judi Lynn]

116. What do you have to offer concerning the thousands and thousands of people who also come by boat

from all over the Caribbean annually, some from as far away as 700 miles, and ALL of them unable to look forward to the rich assortment of benefits held out to attract Cuban citizens, through the Cuban Adjustment Act?

These people come from as far away as Haiti, travel far, FAR greater distances, leaving far, far more difficult situations behind them, (have you NEVER heard of Caribbean migration throughout the entire area?) and ALL of them are going to be chased down, captured, placed in jail, and returned to their homeland if they are discovered in the U.S., unless they are caught at sea first and returned.

(Had you never even learned there is a large population of Haitians who fled to Cuba? I'm not surprised, although there are many, many people throughout the world who knew about this movement long ago. People from the islands, including Cuba, also move to Europe, or didn't you know that? If you read the papers enough, you would have spotted articles discribing boats going down from various places trying to go to Puerto Rico, or people caught by the U.S. Coast Guard trying to get to Puerto Rico, from various other islands. Carried in our own U.S.-centered media.)

What about the annual deaths of HUNDREDS of Latin Americans and Mexican citizens who die attempting to cross the border into the United States from California to Texas? From whom are THEY fleeing? Are they really so attracted to the wonderful United States and our fabulous way of living, or are they desperate to find a way to help their families survive, like the ones who send almost all their money back home, and finally return to their homelands after they have been able to send enough back their families have been assisted to the point they no longer need someone working outside the country to help them.

As a matter of fact, there are so many people from Central America living in the States and sending money home, that _{George W. Bush} hatched the bright idea of threatening to cut off their remitances if the countries voted for leftists in their elections. He even sent _{Jeb Bush} to one of the countries, probably Nicaragua, to tell them himself, instead of letting the information be delivered as per usual, by his State Department employees. He has meddled in Central American elections, has threatened to make it impossible for their relatives working in the States to send them their money if they vote for leftists, and the countries elect their leftist Presidential candiates. If you had been paying any attention to the news whatsoever you would have already learned this sometime in the last 8 years. God knows we have discussed it here at length, at D.U., in Late Breaking News.

ALL of these horrendous crowds of illegal aliens have NOTHING ahead of them but the chance to make money to keep their families alive. They do NOT have the following inducements hung out ahead of them like golden carrots on a string, pulling them forward to the U.S.: Instant legal status, no imprisonment, instant work visa, instant social security, instant access to food stamps, instant access to U.S. taxpayer-subsidized Section 8 housing, instant access to medical treatment, financial assistance for education, and additional perks.

The attractions offered to Cubans attempt to duplicate the circumstances they are accustomed to in Cuba, superficially. Some of them have indicated a sense of complete SHOCK when they discover, like the two adults did who survived the boat disaster with Elián Gonzalez, a woman, Arianne Horta, and her boyfriend, Nivaldo Fernandez. They told a newspaper they were overwhelmed that they had to work all day so hard, just to be able to barely afford an apartment in which to live and very little else.

Apparently there are people who simply suck down the propaganda, and the deliberate misinformation, and don't bother to start sifting through what they know, and testing what makes sense, and what doesn't, and looking to learn more about it.

I suppose you'll claim you were unaware that some Cubans simply go home to live permanently after finding out they simply can't make it here, don't like it here. That wouldn't fit in with the known ((((( spin ))))) so a lot of people might hear it, but are unable to synthesize the information and won't remember it. It has been discussed, by the way, by the former New York Times journalist, Ann Louise Bardach who wrote a book on the Elián Gonzalez spectacle, and relations between Miami and Cuba after making many, many trips back and forth to research.

Try to avoid claiming people come from Cuba because they are running away from socialism. That's simply uneducated crap. You'd have to find ways to explain the multitude of OTHER people from the Caribbean and Central and South America who ALSO undergo unbelievably desperate measures to get to a country where they might be able to make enough money to keep their families alive, since their own countries have been plundered, exploited, bled dry, and in many cases, only can find work offered by American multi-nationals who operate there to avoid paying for worker's compensation, health programs, decent wages, and pension plans, and love the fact that until lately these countries were controlled by US puppets who helped kill off would-be union organizers for them, so there was ALWAYS A STARVING POPULATION TO RAPE.

Do yourself a favor, take off those blinders and dive into your neglected homework. You're not getting any younger.

[DangerDave921]

122. I'm still not clear

I appreciate your lengthy response. I could do without the condescending attitude, but I'll let that pass.

I'm still not clear on something. If Cuba is so great to start with (great education, great healthcare, jobs, etc.) why does anyone leave there in the first place? I don't understand why anyone living in such a great place would even think of coming to the US. There has to be some reason why people would risk their lives to come to the US. Risk their very lives! Why do they do that?

And yes, I am aware that plenty of people flee their natural-born countries because of the economic/political/social failure of their own countries to provide a decent opportunity for a good life.

[Judi Lynn]

123. Aren't you aware of how much boat traffic there is from Miami to Cuba?

Before the travel ban was tightened, Americans used to sail in and out of Cuba in sailboats, for chrissakes. I hardly imagine they felt they were "risking their own lives" to any serious degree.

One couple DU'ers discussed years ago was stranded near or in Cuba due to mechanical failure. They told US authorities, aware that US law forbids them to spend even a penny in Cuba that people at the marina had simply helped them repair the boat for free, and that they hadn't bought anything, and they were told that even the act of helping them was considered a service which had monetary value and by some twisted logic they got in trouble anyway, as memory serves.

I didn't take the time to run down a more detailed story, but they are mentioned in this article:

Cuba
Selected Press Coverage on OFAC and the Right to Travel to Cuba

U.S. cracks down on illicit trips to Cuba
More Americans who slip away to see the island's forbidden attractions are facing stiff fines.
By David Adams

© St. Petersburg Times, published August 13, 2001

When a group of U.S. sports fishermen recently broke the law by casting their lines in Cuba, they never expected to get in trouble for it.

But federal officials were waiting for them in Canada when they stepped off a plane from Havana. Each member of the group later received a shock in the mail -- letters from the U.S. Treasury Department threatening each with a $7,500 fine.

Unlucky as it might seem, the fishermen, whose case is pending, were just one example of a new trend in the 38-year-old embargo against Cuba. Lawyers and civil rights groups say hundreds of Americans, from scuba divers to cigar aficionados, are being slapped with fines as the Bush administration clamps down on violations of the so-called "Cuba travel ban."

Ironically, stricter enforcement of the ban comes just when Congress is for the first time seriously considering lifting it. The House of Representatives last month passed an amendment stripping funding for its enforcement. A similar amendment is expected to be introduced in the Senate next month.

Under the 1963 Trading with the Enemy Act, U.S. travel to Cuba is sharply restricted, although certain categories such as business executives, journalists, religious activists and others may visit the island with a Treasury Department license.

Civil rights groups and left-wing activists have challenged the ban on constitutional grounds, but to no avail. A Supreme Court ruling in the mid-1980s narrowly found in favor of the Reagan administration, holding that national security outweighed Americans' freedom to travel.

~snip~
Ratner and others say the administration may be nervous of opening a legal hornets nest. Holding hearings could give lawyers the venue to challenge what they complain is an unfair and discriminatory practice. Ratner asks why ordinary Americans are not allowed to travel to Cuba, while religious groups and Cuban-Americans can obtain special permits.

Several recent cases have made a mockery of the regulations.

One Seattle man was fined after he traveled to Cuba to bury his fathers' ashes. The Treasury Department tried to impose a $20,000 penalty, but settled for much less. Another couple were fined after their boat broke down and they were forced to dock in Cuba for repairs.

http://www.ibike.org/cuba/ofac/010813-spt.htm

We've even had a DU'er poster here who indicated he was very accustomed to taking his SAILBOAT in and out of South Florida to Cuba.

I've even read that before Colombus Florida Native Americans got to Cuba in their own boats.

You should start trying to THINK THESE THINGS THROUGH. Don't just sit passively, helplessly, waiting for the next propaganda bit to trickle in one ear and out the other. Get out there and start moving those brain cells. If you wait for propganda to tell you what you need to know, you're going to have a very comical perception of the world.

[DangerDave921]

126. you are ignoring my question

I asked what is it about Cuba that makes people try to leave to come to the US? If Cuba is such a wonderful place, why do people leave? There has to be some reason.

And yes, I do mean risk their lives when they are trying to leave Cuba in less than seaworthy vessels.

Look, I am all for lifting the embargo and having travel back and forth between the countries. But that's not my question.

[Judi Lynn]

133. What is it about Mexico that makes people try to leave to come to the US?

If you are trying to imply they are running in terror of their government you're not playing with a full deck.

Even the corporate media refer to these people as "economic immigrants" at times, and they are totally inclined to serve official US interests in ALL their slanting, with no exceptions.

You're going to be forced to stuff your pro-US-domination of the entire Western Hemisphere away as a relic. Latin America doesn't THINK SO any more. That could only fly when the bullies in Washington were tricky enough, brute forcefully powerful enough to thrust this domination on other countries, pure spiritual rape.

If you hadn't noticed, they don't want this any longer, and never really did. It was possible in the past only because it was easy to divide and conquer them by controlling them through their oligarchic puppets.

It's getting harder and harder for these puppets now. Take a look at Alan Garcia, in Peru. As people grow more aware, as communication developes among people, as the HISTORY of what has already happened is passed from generation to generation, and a body of knowledge has been formed about the past, the people in the Latin American and Caribbean countries are going to be able to find unity, solidarity, and work toward regional, national identity of their own, and this means NO MEDDLING from the U.S. right-wing sociopaths.

[Ka hrnt]

155. Don't hold your breath...

You're not going to get an honest/straightforward answer as to why people risk their lives trying to "emigrate" from Cuba. No one here (myself included) thinks Cuba is some God-forsaken hellhole that some on the right try to depict it as. The flip side is that it is not paradise, and yes, it is repressive. Human Rights Watch, The UN Human Rights Council, Amnesty International all confirm both (the good and the bad) of preceding statements.

http://hrw.org/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/cuba17767.htm
http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Countries/LACRegion/Pages/CUIndex.aspx
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

[Billy Burnett]

129. Cubans leave for the same reasons immigrants come from other Latin American and Caribbean countries.

Nothing is black and white.

They come for jobs. They come for that "American dream". They come to earn better wages (hopefully) so they can send money back to their families, just like so many other immigrants do.

Cubans have a special immigration status in the US when they get to the US illegally. Wet Foot/ Dry Foot and the US's Cuban Adjustment Act allow Cuban illegal immigrants to be granted residency status instantly, without any hearing if they make it to the US. That means instant work visa, instant residency visa, instant access to Social Security, welfare, food stamps, section 8 taxpayer assisted housing, and more.

All without ANY background check on any potential criminal record (which is a prohibition for immigration to the US for all others). Cubans who apply for a LEGAL immigration visa are subject to a criminal background check done by the US interests section in Cuba.

For those who have failed to qualify for a legal US immigration visa, there is always the above mentioned avenue - for Cubans only.

No other immigrant group is offered such perks, but yet more people pour into the US from other Latin America and Caribbean countries than Cubans, and they get no special perks.

It is you and your uninformed ilk who constantly repeat "if Cuba is such a paradise... ", without any context or contrast with conditions in other countries.

A good question to ask would be: Why does the US refuse travel visa requests by Cubans who want to visit their families in the US?


on edit: I just wanted to mention that very very few rafters attempt the trip these days. The recent illegal arrivals have mostly come by go-fast speedboats running their ops out of Miami and the Keys @ about $10,000 a person. The Wet Foot/ Dry Foot policy creates opportunity for this little dirty trade because even if caught the illegal entrants get to stay and receive the above perks - for Cubans only.

[Popol Vuh]

144. Good Question

Lets see if you can get it by examining this question. If we had a super power which dwarfed our power and they used they power to blockade us. Wouldn't it be possible that the poor conditions as a result of this siege warfare against you drive you to want to go elsewhere? If you were one of the rich elite who benefited from the previous U.S. subservient dictatorship. Wouldn't you want to leave when the jig was up?

You shouldn't just look at things from just one perspective. You might just learn a better understanding about reality and the world we live in.

I am just saying...

[DangerDave921]

164. Poor Conditions! A-ha!

So you acknowledge that Cuba has poor conditions! I thought things were just great down in Cuba for the working people. Finally -- a teeny little chink in the "Cuba is wonderful" armor that some folks on here seem to spout.

[Popol Vuh]

166. you're being pretty thick headed

First of all excuse my poor grammar. I have a bad tendency to post while I am in a rush to leave the house for work and other things.

Why wouldn't Cuba have poor conditions when we ourselves, the richest country on the planet, have equally poor and worse conditions throughout our country? But the difference between us and Cuba is that we don't have a country bigger than us waging economic siege warfare upon us. Cuba on the other hand does.

Secondly, for being as small as Cuba is and having a superpower blockading them. Cuba, unlike us, doesn't have homelessness, doesn't have people without health care, doesn't have illiteracy, and, has a world renowned education system teaching doctors, engineers and scientists for people throughout the world - even U.S. citizens.

I have no doubt in my mind that if we had to deal with what we impose upon Cuba we would look much, much worse than Cuba does. So yes, Cuba has some poor conditions, but, its shameful people such as yourself who refuse to except that Cuba's problems are a direct result of OUR foreign policy. Also, its shameful people such as yourself who selectively refuse to see that most of Cuba isn't nearly as bad as your corporate media propagandized mind has you believing. They might not have as rich of neighborhoods as we have. But then again they don't go around the world having democratically elected governments overthrown by rightwing military assholes to wage a campaign of terror on its citizens to accept the horrid and exploitative conditions for its "Interests" unlike we do.

People such as you like to make a big point about countries like Cuba focusing only on negative points. Well.....I got news for you. We have some fucked up conditions that I bet you won't find in countries like Cuba. I bet you won't find hospitals in Cuba taking patients still wearing nothing but a hospital robe and still needing medical care and dumping them out onto the street. I bet you won't find a rate of murder or other serious crimes that even comes close to matching ours even though they are as poor as they are. On that same note: Who has a more police state? How many people and at what rate are Americans in jail vs Cuba?

We have Agent Smith reading our emails, listening in on our phone calls, GPS tracking devices in our cars and cell phones, police helicopters patrolling over our heads with infrared and other eavesdropping equipment, our purchases tracked, RFID chips in some of the products we buy, police cameras all over the place in our cities like as if this was a prison, taser gun trigger happy police, mass militarized police assaulting peaceful citizens practicing their constitutional right to gather and speak out in dissent, more than 50% of our wages/salaries taxed to feed mostly the rich not the poor, a news media that is anything but and now last but not least an elite class of oligarchs who have just helped themselves to trillions and trillions of our wages/salaries pensions savings & 401K and other retirement plans. No, Cubans only are in the situation that they are in because they refuse to be like you and I. They refuse to be SLAVES even if it means having to deal with some hardships we impose upon them.

You really should educate yourself as to the reality of the world you live in.

[DangerDave921]

168. Our foreign policy?

Can't Cuba be economic partners with all the rest of the world if it wants? Why does the US embargo so impact Cuba when it has all of Europe, South America, and Asia to trade with.

Maybe part of the problem is a repressive, corrupt, one-party political system run by a dictator. Don't you think that might have an impact on the Cuban peoples' plight?

And for the record, I agree we should lift the embargo immediately.

[Billy Burnett]

169. Still in the vacuum I see.

Maybe you might want to do a little research on the extra territorial nature of the US Helms-Burton law, the US Libertad Act, and the myriad of other sanction placed into various other US bills.

Companies that do business in the US are forbidden from "trading with the enemy" (Cuba) at the same time. (There are some exceptions that required extensive permitting regulations.) They have to choose one customer base or the other.

Bayer AG, for example, cannot sell Aspirin to/in Cuba. They would have to give up the US market to do so. But yet we often hear the criticism from the unaware "you can't even get Aspirin in Cuba" as if that is Castro's doing.

Companies manufacture and sell products, not countries.


Part of the problem with your discussions about Cuba is that you are stone cold ignorant about the subject.

You, and your ilk, continue to throw uninformed swill at the wall in hope of getting something to stick. Big waste of time. Time that would be better spent doing some research into these various aspects of US/Cuba relations. Somehow, I don't think that you are really interested in such an endeavor. I think that you are just more interested in Cuba/Castro bashing - it's easier to join the choir than risk having your preconceptions (fantasizations) upset.

No one here is saying that Cuba is a paradise nor a bastion of democracy - no country is, when a close up examination is undertaken. What is being said by many here is that Cubans have done an extraordinary job at creating secure and world class social infrastructures with very little. It is because Cubans are motivated by their solidarity to do so, and they do have a vivid historical record of the horrendous conditions created by the various occupiers of their nation in the past.


However, despite your uninformed rantings and smears, I'm glad that you desire an end to this madness (the sanctions on Cuba). :thumbsup:

[Judi Lynn]

170. Thank god you found the words which eluded me altogether, when I struggled trying to construct

a decent comment on this last night. I finally just gave up after several attempts.

The first thing I thought of was attempting to tell this scholar he needs to spend a fragment of his valuable time doing the research he needs in order to deal with the subject from an informed position. I actually started trying to find the right source to explain to him the nature of the extraterritorial reach, and the backlash which ensued from the rest of the world when these measures were taken, and to remind him the entire General Assembly, at the United Nations votes to condemn this embargo every single year, with the next vote coming up next week. Only 2 or 3 tiny countries each year succumb to US arm-twisting and vote to support the embargo, serve as the only exceptions: countries like Palau, and the Marshall Islands!

Eventually, I just gave up and went to sleep, thinking, "#### it. He's not the kind of person who does any research, anyway, and not likely to open his mind far enough to take on the work involved learning the facts."

I looked for material on the Helms-Burton, and the fine work Torricelli did after the C.A.N.F. started bankrolling his campaigns, and he switched immediately from anti-embargo to pro-embargo. Of course you remember that disaster, clearly. It was such a pity seeing that guy go down in flames, accused of massive corruption, wasn't it?

Thank you for taking the time to offer an exceptional post on the subject of getting informed on the actual power and effect of the embargo. We've had a few posters here, over the years, showing up with the same ignorant comments, telling the world they don't know a thing about what they're discussing, and proud of it.

Appreciate your patience, and your genuine respect for others and the process of learning. I think I had almost given up on that possibility altogether in many cases which seemed too resistant.

Some people never seem to realize the world is far more complex than a cartoon-like, easily grasped explanation will cover.

Sure glad you came forward and delivered the information I fumbled for and couldn't express, and I hope at least one person will see it, after it has been shot back to the Latin America forum, and use it as a springboard to opening the door to a greater understanding beyond the propaganda.

[Billy Burnett]

83. Yes. I'd like to see links to some reports on artists being cracked down on for their politics.

I think Mr Danger is basing his Cuba commentary on AP headlines and "some people say" reporting. :eyes:

Does Mr Danger know anything about anti Castro dissident Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo?

Example: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4498784

Ooops. It's the US, not Castro, that will arrest him for returning to Cuba to form a political movement - if he comes to the US.


Still, I'd like to be enlightened by some of the solid info Mr Danger has. Links?

[Judi Lynn]

86. I've heard about Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo for years, and certainly read Bush intends to throw his

elderly ass in the slammer for daring to go to Cuba and set up his own political organization there. I think it was named something like "Cambio Cubano," right? Jeezus. Simply grotesque.

Also, wanted to mention I've heard about repeated bombings of Miami art galleries whose owners had the audacity to show art by Cubans living on the island. Astounding, isn't it? Here's one quick reference I just spotted in a jiffy look, due to lack of any real time:

~snip~
.......Of special interest in the Blanc papers is extensive documentation (exhibition announcements, court orders, and press releases) of the controversy that surrounded Miami's Cuban Museum of Art and Culture in the late 1980s. In April 1988, a fund-raising auction at the 24-year-old ‘little Havana' institution resulted in heated disputes that escalated to violence and subsequent bombings. The works auctioned were by Cuban artists still living on the island and, therefore, considered supporters of the Communist regime; an idea that outraged many people in Miami's Cuban community. The incident intensified quickly and involved the U.S. Treasury and Justice Departments along with the American Civil Liberties Union, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Sotheby's and Christie's auction houses. The FBI impounded both the museum's collection and Ramón Cernuda's personal art collection, the museum vice-president who organized the auction. 3 Found among Blanc's papers is the ‘hours of operation' placard rescued from the bomb debris by artist Pablo Cano who dedicated it to Blanc with an inscription written on the back.

http://www.aaa.si.edu/exhibits/pastexhibits/blanc/hispanic.htm

[DangerDave921]

88. Here is one example.

This is from Telegraph.co.uk. Just this past Summer.

Gorki Aguila, lead singer of Porno para Ricardo, has been in police custody since Monday. He is due to appear at the Playa municipal court in western Havana charged with subverting "communist morality." Should he be convicted, he faces up to four years in prison for openly defying the revolution and poking fun at Fidel Castro and his brother Raul, who became Cuba's president in February.

Police arrested 39-year-old Aguila at his home where he was putting the finishing touches to a new album which was provisionally called Geriatric Central Committee, a reference to the ageing Castro regime. His arrest has sparked protests from artists and human rights groups with supporters due to assemble at Havana's Malecon promenade to protest.

The government often applies the "social dangerousness" charge in cases of public drunkenness or as a way to keep large groups of unemployed Cubans - or those simply skipping work - from congregating on city streets during business hours.

Porna para Ricardo, formed 10 years ago, are banned from official airwaves, and make up part of an underground music movement.

[Billy Burnett]

95. There were several threads about Gorki here. Turns out he wasn't arrested.

He was fined for disturbing the peace because his punk band was practicing very loudly, and Gorki was cursing and swearing (as he is prone to do) through their PA system. The neighbors called authorities with complaints about the volume and the cursing, not the political content. They came and and told the band to turn down the volume. They didn't. Gorki was given a civil fine, because he was the resident of the house, for disturbing the peace in a residential neighborhood.

His punishment was a $28 dollar fine, which he paid and went home.

Not to mention that he is on probation for a drug dealing conviction.


I'm a musician also, and this kind of thing (bands playing too loud for neighbors) goes on every single night all over the US. It has happened to my band numerous times.


on edit: I found one of the threads from August ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3457743

and

Dissident Cuban rocker fined $28, freed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=7342&mesg_id=7361

[DangerDave921]

97. Link?

Can you provide a news link that shows he was only arrested for playing too loudly?

[Billy Burnett]

99. The links to news stories I have stating that, are expired.

There are excerpts from some of them in the treads I posted links of.

I did not download and save those stories on my drive. Sorry. And I don't have time to search right now.

PLUS, this thread is about rationing in Cuba because of the devastation from 2 hurricanes.

If you want to debate Cuba's political abuses, infrastructure, and dissident movements, please start a thread on that. Deviating from the topic only gets these Cuba threads locked because of the uninformed flaming, red baiting, and red herrings that usually show up.

[pnutbutr]

Sounds pretty good in cuba :eyes:

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y06/mar06/10e1.htm

[Judi Lynn]

117. Oh, another story written by a US government paid source. Hey, thanks!

Does ANYONE take CubaNet seriously?

From: "Dan Christensen" <dchris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 01:02:39 -0400
Mainstream journalists don't seem to take postings at CubaNet very
seriously. Neither, it seems, do human rights groups like Amensty
International and Human Rights Watch.

I could be wrong, but I cannot recall ever seeing a single credit or quote
in the English-speaking, mainstream print media attributed to this US
government-funded propaganda organ -- not even in South Florida.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.cuba/2005-09/msg01132.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cubanet.org and CubaCenter.org get millions from USAID to subvert Cuba regime

Published: Tue February 22, 2005

~snip~
Two of the primary Cuba-related groups handling the NED’s cash payments are CubaNet ( http://www.cubanet.org ), a Florida-based Web site that publishes the work of freelancers, and the Center for a Free Cuba ( http://www.cubacenter.org ), a Washington group led by anti-Castro activist Frank Calzon.

The two groups also receive USAID funding. Calzon’s organization has taken in more than $5 million in recent years and CubaNet more than $1.3 million, according to USAID figures.

http://havanajournal.com/politics/entry/cubanetorg_and_cubacenterorg_get_millions_from_usaid_to_subvert_cuba_regime/

~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's a story closer to home you should remember, one among so MANY JUST LIKE IT, FROM COAST TO COAST. This particular MURDER took place in Miami, in LITTLE HAVANA:

Posted on Wed, Sep. 06, 2006
Four friends allegedly beat a homeless man to death
By Madeline Baro Diaz

South Florida Sun-Sentinel

(MCT)

MIAMI - Angry over a homeless man's catcall, four friends went on a "feeding frenzy," police said, beating the elderly man to death with a metal chair, a steel rebar, a rock and a wooden stick.

Two men accused in Saturday's attack are the sons of Christian clergymen. All four have been charged with second degree murder.

"This was pure bloodlust," said Miami police spokesman Lt. Bill Schwartz. "There was no reason for this."

According to a police report, the attack was sparked when Janice Guillen, 18, went to her car to get cigarettes. Guillen told police she heard Jose Perez, 67, who was in the building across the street, toss out a pickup line "she felt was nasty," the report said. She told police she confronted Perez and punched him in the face.

Perez allegedly hit her back, prompting Magdiel Wingfield, 28, Kevin Stone, 27, and Jason Cardenas, 19, to run downstairs from Guillen's Little Havana apartment. The four of them allegedly jumped Perez, punching and kicking him and hitting him with the chair, the rebar and the other objects. At one point they pushed Perez through a glass door, shattering it, the police report said.

Earlier D.U. posting.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2497666

[pnutbutr]

111. sounds even better now :eyes:

http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/repression_in_cuba.pdf

[Judi Lynn]

119. Right. Another bit of propaganda passed around by the U.S.-taxpayer financed

(without our approval, obviously) Cubanet propaganda-for-hire bilge pump. You are really hitting that hard right dominator of the Western Hemisphere material but hard, aren't you?

More dribble from the hate industry in South Florida, an unfortunate porkbarrel black hole through which MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF US TAXPAYER $$'S DISAPPEAR ANNUALLY. What a damned shame for us.

You'd better believe it, this business is going to get cleaned up as soon as more light is shown on these scums. They're already in hot water up to their noses, but you probably already know that.U.S. aid funneled to Castro opponents

Ex-envoy calls effort `colossal mistake'

By Gary Marx
Tribune foreign correspondent

February 22, 2005

~snip~
Sabatini said about 20 percent of the NED's assistance to Cuba reaches
the island in cash, primarily to support the work, training and travel
of activists. The NED's Cuba budget is scheduled to double in the next
fiscal year to about $2 million.

Two of the primary Cuba-related groups handling the NED's cash payments
are CubaNet, a Florida-based Web site that publishes the work of
freelancers, and the Center for a Free Cuba, a Washington group led by
anti-Castro activist Frank Calzon.

The two groups also receive USAID funding. Calzon's organization has
taken in more than $5 million in recent years and CubaNet more than $1.3
million, according to USAID figures.

Rosa Berre, director of CubaNet, said the agency sends about $3,000 a
month in NED funds to Cuba to pay freelance writers and activists for
articles.

"It's valid to work for money. This is what people do," said Berre. Nine
of her freelancers in Cuba were imprisoned in the 2003 crackdown, and
two others revealed themselves as spies for Cuban intelligence in
testimony against those arrested.

Several of the writers have since been released.

"As long as they are willing to take the risk, we are here to help
them," she said. http://members.shaw.ca/CCFACalgary/literature/misc/Bush%20Funds%20Anti-Castro%20Groups.doc

[mbperrin]

23. You obviously don't know what rationing is. We use pricing

as a rationing device for most things in this country. Of course, we use other methods, including brute force, to get others, like our foreign policy goals.

It was all in Econ 101.

[WriteDown]

58. So you are against pricing?

Please enlighten me as to how that would work.

[mbperrin]

89. Who's against pricing? It is the way we decide who gets what

for most things in the USA; ie, your "ration" is determined by your willingness AND ability to pay more for merchandise than those who receive none.

What, are you 19 and haven't had Econ 101 yet?

[WriteDown]

101. You are mistaking pricing for rationing

which is not uncommon for the econ illiterate. True rationing is not the same as pricing. Pricing does create a rationing system, but it's a system built on choice. Rationing does not provide a choice. Rationing is an order that you can't purchase more than x number of items while price limits your choices, but not necessarily the quantity of that item you can purchase. May want to hit the books.

[Billy Burnett]

103. But the Cuban people choose to ration what they have.

That's how they all will survive, not just the well off.

That is the spirit of solidarity almost all Cubans share. That is why they formed government infrastructure to enable their survival during hard times.

It's only forced on those who do not feel a sense of commitment to their fellow citizens, which is why Cubans share the burden, and the benefits. One for all, all for one.

[WriteDown]

104. This is a government mandate....

not a referendum by the people. Regardless, you do what you have to in order to survive. I will place more stock in Cuba when they admit that Fidel is dead. I am fairly certain that he'll either be reported as dying in his sleep or dying while working on some sort of important program.

[Billy Burnett]

105. Not a mandate by the government. It's a mandate by the people.

That is just why they are proceeding. If the Cuban people do not like their representation, then they can initiate a recall of their Assembly representatives. Funny thing ... Cubans have survived through past desperate times because they do have real representation and real infrastructure (run by the people) that has enabled them to do so. Unlike the "special period" that lasted many years, this hurricane damage will be rebuilt and the crops replanted post-haste. It will pass relatively quickly, but in the short term Cubans will shoulder the burden together - not at odds with each other. The government of Cuba is run by the mandate of the people, not the other way around.

[DangerDave921]

106. LOL

You are either a great comedian with a wicked sense of sarcasm, or else you . . . well I don't know what to say.

Yeah, Cuba is run by the people! It is a paradise of voluntary communal living!

[Billy Burnett]

108. You're the "expert".

With your vast experience in Cuba, and all. (Not to mention your crackerjack research.)

Don't pay any attention to me or the others who have been there (there are literally thousands of blogs, stories, research papers, and other such material online), including several DUers.

I've only been there about a dozen times for NGO, personal, and professional reasons. My experience on/in Cuba can't stand up to yours.

:sarcasm:

[DangerDave921]

110. Then please answer my question

Has Castro ever faced a legitimate opponent in an election? If so, please let me know who that was and what the results of the election were. Are you telling DU that Castro has been FREELY and FAIRLY elected since 1959?

[Billy Burnett]

150. This might help.

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.

Here's some of the other candidates on the 2003 slate for Santiago de Cuba (Castro's home district). It was Fidel Castro's last run for a seat.

http://www.granma.co.cu/secciones/candidatos/prov-13.htm

JUAN ALMEIDA BOSQUE

Nivel Escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Miembro del Buró Político, Vicepresidente del Consejo de Estado, Comandante de la Revolución. Se incorporó a la lucha revolucionaria desde el 10 de marzo de 1952. Participó en el Asalto al Cuartel Moncada. Formó parte de los expedicionarios del Granma. Fue ascendido a Comandante y en marzo de 1958 organizó el III Frente de Operaciones en la Sierra Maestra. A partir del 1o de Enero de 1959 ha ocupado distintas responsabilidades. En octubre de 1965, al constituirse el Comité Central del Partido Comunista de Cuba, fue designado miembro del mismo y de su Buró Político. En septiembre de 1968 fue designado Delegado del Buró Político para la atención al sector de la construcción y en septiembre de 1970 Delegado del Buró Político en la provincia de Oriente. Es presidente de la Asociación de Combatientes de la Revolución Cubana. Se le otorgó el título de Héroe de la República de Cuba y la Orden "Máximo Gómez" de 1er. grado. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

ADRIÁN FONSECA QUESADA

Nivel Escolar: Medio Superior. Ocupación: Estudiante. En la Enseñanza Primaria y Secundaria alcanzó resultados docentes satisfactorios y ocupó diferentes cargos en la organización pioneril. Presidió la FEEM en Bayamo e integró su Secretariado Nacional. Participó en el XIV Festival Mundial de la Juventud y los Estudiantes. En el SMG obtuvo varios estímulos y condecoraciones. Estuvo al frente del trabajo de la UJC en su compañía y perteneció al Comité UJC de la Brigada. Comenzó sus estudios universitarios en la Universidad de Oriente estudiando Comunicación Social, en 1er. año fue Secretario General de su Comité de Base, integró el Consejo de la FEU en la Universidad, siendo su Vicepresidente, y al comenzar el 2do. año fue Presidente. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

FIDEL CASTRO RUZ

Nivel escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Primer Secretario del CC del PCC. Presidente de los Consejos de Estado y de Ministros. Comandante en Jefe de las FAR. Desde 1945 se integró a las luchas políticas estudiantiles. Concibió y dirigió el asalto al Cuartel Moncada. Fundador del Movimiento 26 de Julio. Organizó la expedición del Granma y dirigió la guerra de liberación que culminó con el Triunfo de la Revolución el 1o de Enero de 1959. Dirigió y participó en la defensa de Playa Girón. Fue Presidente del Movimiento de Países No Alineados. Ha impulsado y dirigido la lucha del pueblo cubano por la consolidación del proceso revolucionario, el avance hacia el socialismo y la unidad de todas las fuerzas revolucionarias. Ha sido electo Diputado a la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular desde la creación de aquella en 1976 y desde entonces ha ocupado por elección los cargos de Presidente del Consejo de Estado y Presidente del Consejo de Ministros. Es el principal impulsor y organizador de la intensa Batalla de Ideas que hoy libramos, dirigiendo las campañas, programas y acciones que desarrolla nuestro pueblo. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

CARLOS ALBERTO CABAL MIRABAL

Nivel Escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Director de Biofísica Médica. En 1971 inició su vida laboral como Jefe del Departamento de Física Electrónica en la Escuela de Física, en este mismo año fue promovido a Subdirector de la escuela y luego a Director. Fue Subdirector de la Unidad Docente de Moa; Decano y fundador de la Facultad de Física Matemática, jefe de grupo de RMN. Desde la fundación del centro de Biofísica Médica en 1993 ha sido su Director. Milita en el PCC desde 1976. Desde 1991 es miembro del Comité Provincial del Partido. Fue Delegado al IV Congreso del PCC y Delegado Directo al V Congreso. Ha participado como ponente y autor en más de 70 eventos científicos a nivel nacional e internacional. Desde 1993 es Diputado a la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

MISAEL ENAMORADO DÁGER

Nivel Escolar: Superior. Ocupación: Primer Secretario del Partido en la provincia. De 1977 a 1981 trabajó como Ingeniero y Jefe de Mantenimiento de la Empresa de Automatización del MINAZ, del municipio de Palma Soriano. Luego laboró como inversionista del Central Tunas 1. De 1985 a 1988 se desempeñó como Jefe del Departamento de Industria del Partido Provincial de Las Tunas y fue Director de la Empresa Estructuras Metálicas. Desde 1992 a 1994 ocupó el cargo de Primer Secretario del Partido del municipio de Las Tunas. Teniendo en cuenta los resultados de su trabajo fue promovido a Miembro del Buró Provincial. En el IV Congreso del Partido fue electo miembro de su Comité Central. Fue elegido como Primer Secretario del Partido de la Provincia de Las Tunas desde 1995 al 2001. En el V Congreso fue elegido Miembro del Buró Político. Desde octubre del 2001 se desempeña como Primer Secretario del Partido en la provincia de Santiago de Cuba. Es actualmente Diputado a la Asamblea Nacional del Poder Popular. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

JULIO CHRISTIAN JIMÉNEZ MOLINA

Nivel escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Vicepresidente Primero del INDER. Desarrolló su etapa estudiantil con excelentes resultados hasta alcanzar el título de Lic. en Ciencias Políticas, destacándose por su participación activa en el deporte, especialmente en baloncesto, donde ha participado en eventos nacionales e internacionales durante toda esa etapa. Integró el Equipo Nacional de Baloncesto hasta ocupar distintas responsabilidades en la Dirección Nacional del INDER, otras instituciones y escuelas pertenecientes al deporte hasta agosto del 1997, que es designado Vicepresidente Primero del INDER. Fue militante de la UJC e ingresó al PCC en 1978. Ha cumplido diferentes misiones gubernamentales por lo que fue seleccionado en el 2000, Cuadro Destacado del Estado. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

LUIS ENRIQUE IBÁÑEZ ARRANZ

Nivel Escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Presidente de la Asamblea Municipal. Fue dirigente de la UJC a todos los niveles y dirigente del PCC hasta 1992 que es promovido a Primer Secretario en el municipio de Julio Antonio Mella. En 1996 fue designado Vicepresidente del CAM hasta el 2001. Posteriormente, fue elegido Presidente de la Asamblea Municipal del municipio de Santiago de Cuba. Participó como Delegado al IV Congreso de la UJC e invitado al IV Congreso del PCC. Es el Vicepresidente del Consejo de Defensa del municipio de Santiago. Por su trayectoria revolucionaria y los méritos acumulados ha recibido varias condecoraciones y reconocimientos. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

VIRGEN ALFONSO RODRÍGUEZ

Nivel Escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Secretaria General FMC Provincial. Ingresó en el ISP "Frank País", de Santiago de Cuba, donde obtuvo los sellos de Oro y de Plata, fue dirigente de la UJC en el Comité de Base y de la FEU a nivel de aula. Participó como Delegada al XIV Festival de la Juventud y los Estudiantes y a su regreso fue promovida a Directora Municipal de Cultura en ese territorio. Se trasladó al municipio Songo-La Maya como Metodóloga de Español-Literatura desde 1991-1994. Al finalizar este año fue promovida a Cuadro de la FMC, donde se desempeña actualmente como Secretaria General de la provincia. Pasó la Escuela Provincial del PCC en el año 2002. Ha sido condecorada con el Sello Educadora Ejemplar, Medalla por 5 años de trabajo ininterrumpido como cuadro de la FMC y Medalla 30 Aniversario de los CDR. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

LARIS CORRALES ROBERT

Nivel Escolar: Superior. Ocupación: Primer Secretario del PCC Municipal. De 1981 a 1983 cumple misión internacionalista en la República Popular de Nicaragua. Laboró como maestro en la escuela "José Martí Pérez". En 1984 fue promovido a Director de la Escuela Primaria "Rubén Díaz", labor que realizó hasta 1987, en que pasó a ocupar el cargo de Metodólogo Inspector de la Dirección Municipal de Educación en Palma Soriano. En 1993 fue promovido a trabajar como cuadro profesional del Partido, desempeñándose como Instructor y luego como Miembro Profesional del Buró de Palma Soriano. En 1997 fue promovido a Primer Secretario hasta octubre del 2001. que pasó con igual función al Comité Municipal en Santiago de Cuba, es miembro no Profesional del Buró Ejecutivo del Comité Provincial. Fue Delegado al V Congreso del Partido. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba.

--

ERNESTO STIVENS LAGART

Nivel Escolar: Superior. Ocupación: Ingeniero en Minas de Cobre. En 1984 ingresó al SMG en la U/M 3227 de la provincia de Holguín, estando en las FAR fue designado a cumplir misión internacionalista en Angola donde le fue otorgada la militancia de la UJC. A su regreso a Cuba, se incorporó a trabajar en la empresa minera del cobre, manteniendo una actitud destacada, motivo por el cual cursó estudios superiores, incorporándose en 1989 al ISMM de Moa a la especialidad de Ingeniería de Mina y se graduó en 1994. A partir de entonces se incorporó a la empresa nuevamente en el cargo que ocupa. Ostenta la medalla de Combatiente Internacionalista de 1era. clase, distinción Servicio Distinguido, medalla Victoria Cuba- Angola. Es miembro de la ACRC. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

VILMA LUCILA ESPÍN GUILLOIS

Nivel escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Presidenta de la Federación de Mujeres Cubanas y Miembro del Consejo de Estado. Fue una de las primeras mujeres que se graduó como Ingeniera Química Industrial. Una de las más cercanas colaboradoras de Frank País en la lucha revolucionaria. Miembro de la Dirección Nacional del 26 de Julio, y Coordinadora Provincial de Oriente, hasta que pasó al II Frente Oriental "Frank País". Ha sido elegida, Congreso tras Congreso, como Presidenta de la FMC. Es miembro del Comité Central del Partido desde 1965. Fue elegida suplente del Buró Político en el II Congreso y efectivo en el III, y ratificada como miembro del Comité Central en todos los Congresos. Actualmente preside la Comisión Nacional de Prevención y Atención Social; la Comisión Permanente de Atención a la Niñez, la Juventud y la Igualdad de Derechos de la Mujer y orienta el Grupo de Educación Sexual. Es Diputada a la Asamblea Nacional y del Consejo de Estado desde 1976. Se le otorgó el título de Heroína de la República de Cuba y la Orden "Mariana Grajales". Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

SONIA DURÁN ROJAS

Nivel Escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Metodóloga Provincial de Educación. Comenzó su vida laboral en la Escuela Vocacional Antonio Maceo en 1981, donde ocupó varias responsabilidades, entre ellas: Jefa de Departamento de Literatura y Español. Participó en diferentes eventos Municipales y Provinciales de Pedagogía, Lingüística y Comunicación. En 1991 fue promovida a Metodóloga Provincial, donde ha obtenido resultados positivos. Ha sido Presidenta de la Comisión de Ingreso a la Educación Superior desde el año 1991 hasta la fecha. Es Profesora Adjunta del ISP Frank País García. Recibió la Distinción por la Educación Cubana. Es Delegada de circunscripción. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

ALBERTO LEZCAY MERENCIO

Nivel escolar: Superior. Ocupación: Presidente de la Fundación Caguayo para las Artes Monumentales Aplicadas. Es fundador de la televisora Tele Rebelde, donde inició su vida laboral como pintor escenográfico, así como del taller de diseño y textos del DOR. En 1973 se graduó en Escultura en la Escuela Nacional de Arte y en 1979 de Maestro en Arte, Academia de Escultura, Arquitectura, Pintura y Gráfica "I. Repin" en Leningrado. Fue nombrado miembro de la UNEAC y de la Asociación Internacional de Artistas Plásticos. Es autor de varias obras de arte. En 1981 pasó a Director del Taller Cultural en Santiago de Cuba y en 1982 dirigió el equipo multidisciplinario para el proyecto de la Plaza Monumento Antonio Maceo. En 1985 fue delegado al XII Festival Mundial de la Juventud y los Estudiantes en Moscú. Ha participado en eventos nacionales e internacionales. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

--

JOSÉ RAMÓN BALAGUER CABRERA

Nivel escolar: Universitario. Ocupación: Miembro del Buró Político del Partido y del Consejo de Estado, fundador del PCC. En 1958 se incorporó como Combatiente al Segundo Frente Oriental "Frank País", tomando parte en varios combates. Al triunfo de la Revolución ocupó los cargos de Segundo Jefe y Jefe de Sanidad municipal en La Habana. Más tarde fue designado Director General ejecutivo y Viceministro de Higiene y Epidemiología del Ministerio de Salud Pública. A partir de 1962 ocupó varias responsabilidades en el MINFAR. Fue Primer Secretario del Comité Provincial del Partido en Santiago de Cuba y delegado del Buró Político en Granma. En 1985 fue promovido a miembro del Secretariado del Comité Central. Fue Embajador de Cuba en la URSS. Es miembro del Comité Central del Partido desde 1975 y Diputado a la Asamblea Nacional desde su constitución. En reconocimiento a su labor, le han sido otorgadas varias condecoraciones. Municipio: Santiago de Cuba

Thanks to Dr Mika for this link also. :hug:

[WriteDown]

107. By that logic....

The war in Iraq, the response to Katrina, etc......were all mandated by the American people. You do realize that Cubans are not allowed to write any negative articles, create any negative art, etc toward their government?

[DangerDave921]

109. Whoa there

Don't even go down that road with our friend here. You are clearly spouting your anti-cuban bias as perpretrated by the US media. Cuba does not have political prisoners. Cuba is a free nation where the citizens demonstrate sharing and caring to a degree we cannot even fathom. Castro has been freely and fairly elected since 1959. No one is punished for criticizing the government. Oh, and Cuba's schools and healthcare system are the envy of the world. It is just this side of heaven.

LOL

[Billy Burnett]

114. Your reading comprehension needs some work...

.. if that's what you perceived as being discussed by me.


Anyway, I've some things to do, so you two can fantasize away about the evil island of the evil Dr Castro uninterrupted.

[Billy Burnett]

112. Nonsense.

A significant percentage of Americans continue to believe that Iraq was involved in 9/11, and large numbers think Katrina's N.O. victims (or the 'democrat' party) were to blame. All Americans weren't directly negatively affected by those events.

This is not the case regarding the two hurricane strikes that swept up both sides of the island. Everyone was hit. Everyone's food supplies and infrastructure was taken out.

Americans simply did not involve themselves in government to the same degree that Cubans do. I know that's hard for you to swallow, but it is true. Cubans show up to vote. Cubans show up to select and nominate their candidates. Ordinary Cubans can and do run for office - and win. Cubans show up to do the heavy lifting needed to survive. They share the work, the burdens, and the rewards.


As to your nonsense about anything negative about the government not being permitted... there are two examples of just the opposite on this very thread! I don't know how you can make such a false blanket statement after all of the Cuba threads you've participated in that have had numerous story and research links posted that reveal otherwise.

Maybe you could do some reading of the links relating to this topic that have been posted already. It can't be made any easier for you. Judi, Mika and many others who've posted this info for you can't do your reading for you too. Come on. Why repeat the same canards over and over?

Better yet, why don't you get more involved in working to end the embargo on Cuba and the travel sanctions on Americans. That way more real communication and contact with Cubans, including being able to travel there to see and learn for yourself, would be possible. I know that's asking a lot - considering that you don't even take the time to read the hundreds of links posted on the Cuba threads here on DU.

[WriteDown]

113. Huh?

So the execution of homosexuals under Fidel was the people's will too? I guess all those deviants affected the whole Cuban populace so they had to be "taken care of." I do wonder why the Cuban people's attitude changed once Raul took over.

[Judi Lynn]

120. Why not post some of your evidence against the Cuban government and its position on gays?

You'd be doing Cuba-watching DU'ers a real favor.

Thanks.

[WriteDown]

124. Speaking of which....

I've been waiting for a poster from Cuba to chime in. :eyes:

[Judi Lynn]

127. How many message boards in other countries do you attend? n/t

[WriteDown]

128. It would be fewer....

If I was forbidden from accessing it. You may want to review.

http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2008/10/yoani-snchez-internet-es-muy-corrosivo.html

[Judi Lynn]

131. How many message boards written in a language different from your native language do you attend? n/t

[WriteDown]

132. 2-3.....

That is all Japanese and Spanish though. I would review that article if I were you.

[Billy Burnett]

135. The same old canard, yet again.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/tech/main592416.shtml
E-net is the largest of a handful of Internet providers in Cuba

-

E-net customers who do not have the dollar phone service can keep accessing the Internet with the ordinary phone service with special cards sold at Etecsa offices

Problem is that it is un affordable. Satellite connections are Cuba's primary inet connection.

Internet being so prohibitively expensive is a form of rationing in this case.


Cuba can't connect the the Caribbean fiber optic cables because of the US embargo. CISCO owns the Caribbean trunk and therefore cannot connect Cuba, by US edict.

[WriteDown]

136. Yep, that's the problem....

:eyes:

http://www.rsf.org/IMG/pdf/rapport_gb_md_1.pdf

[Billy Burnett]

140. Funny how Richard Mellon Scaiffe funded RWB doesn't mention Cuba's inability to connect to Cisco's..

... fiber optic Caribbean trunk. The only choice for the Caribbean for now.

Funny how their "reporter" was operating illegally in Cuba (went to Cuba using a tourist visa, while actually formally working as a foreign agent - which is illegal in the US also), but journalists from the world's leading newspapers and news channels don't resort to illegally gaining entry into Cuba.

Interesting that Cubans have internet access in internet cafe shops and free internet access in almost every library in Cuba. Just as they are in the US, library internet accounts might be monitored for illegal activity.

RWB should be outraged that American's internet is restricted and/or monitored by government contractors.

If internet access is your concern, then you should be working to get the US sanctions that prevent Cubans from connecting to affordable access, because it is US policy to restrict Cuban's access to the internet, not the Cuban government.

---

As usual, regardless of the topic of the thread, the Cubaphobic posters sling any and all mud at the wall to see if they can get anything to stick, no matter how ridiculous the canard. Meanwhile, ignoring the absolute hypocrisy of doing so while the US government is engaged in the very behavior they accuse Cuba of. Very republican indeed.

[WriteDown]

143. You may want to try reading the article.....

According to some on DU these days, you can't trust Amnesty Intl, RWB, DWB, or HRW, but you can trust Cuban government news releases. Absolutely nuts.

[Billy Burnett]

148. "Internet in Cuba"

"Internet in Cuba"

Bjorn Blomberg [email protected]

Dear Editor: Having read Luis Zuleta's letter about freedom in Cuba and Venezuela, I have some further information to add regarding internet in Cuba. The best summary of the situation I have yet read is in Walter Lippman's excellent article "Two Months in Cuba" in which you find:

"Almost no Cubans have internet access at home. Cubans have had e-mail access and computer training for two decades through computer youth clubs and schools. They had to wait for a connection to the internet, which became available in October, 1996. This opened up the graphical world and instant delivery. They have had internet e-mail, both domestic (for more people) and international (for fewer people), for many years prior to 1996."

Only a few journalists, doctors and other scientists have e-mail at home. To check e-mail from elsewhere, foreigners have to use an internet café, such as the one at the Capitolio, where access is both slow and expensive at $5.00 an hour. You must present your passport, which is logged in at the desk, and Cubans can't access the internet there. Students have net access at the University, but I wasn't able to see under what conditions or limits.

Some Cubans have internet access at work. They are mostly people who work for foreign companies. Many Cubans have e-mail at their jobs, though without internet access. These limits are explained by the expense of the equipment (starting with computers), limited bandwidth and security considerations. The domestic Cuban intranet, however, has been built up over the last 20 years and is extensive. In a country where telephone service has been mostly unreliable, many businesses and universities use e-mail via the Cuban intranet to communicate.
Comments | Read more...

A campaign that began in the Washington Post in December, 2000 claims that Cuba deliberately limits internet access to its citizens. It is hypocritical for the US, which does whatever it can to prevent Cuban access to technology, equipment and much else, to complain about this. Cuba is still a relatively poor Third World country. Its hard currency resources are kept for the highest priorities: health, education and self-preservation. Internet access is growing, but not as quickly as one would like. It's far less widely available than in the US, where income rather than need is what decides.

All governments fear uncontrolled information ... in the US, we are drowned with massive amounts of information. By this means, important information (like favorable materials about Cuba!) can be drowned out where not eliminated totally.

Anyone seriously concerned about expanding access to the internet in Cuba should speak out to end the blockade. If Cuba didn't have to do so much to defend itself, and if Cuba were free to purchase computers and all the technology needed with it, internet access would be far more available there than it is at present. And Cubans might begin to purchase software that they currently cannot buy legally from US companies.

More importantly, when the internet is "opened" and made more available in Cuba, I can't imagine it would EVER be like it is in the USA. There will NOT be 11 million people sitting alone at home at 11 million individual terminals. Remember, Cubans still share phone lines. That will continue, and so will sharing of internet resources ... this is as much a cultural phenomenon as a resource-related one.

Cuba isn't interested in giving everybody individual internet access. The whole society is more communal and collective than that. It is much more likely that, with unlimited access and resources just handed to them, Cubans would work out a community-based kind of access. CDRs and schools and community centers and clinics will be used for internet access, not each individual home. One beginning effort they are making is to put public terminals at post offices.

Living in the US where internet access is relatively inexpensive, I have a high-speed DSL connection, and I don't pay attention to how long my computer stays connected. In Cuba, where access was $5.00 an hour for a slow connection at the Capitolio internet cafe, I had to carefully assess the value of what I was reading. Much and sometimes most of what I get in e-mail is junk, so I found myself deleting most of what I received in Cuba without reading it.

Cuba is willing to trade with anyone who will trade with it. I noticed that many of the computer monitors in the Capitolio, and elsewhere, were of Israeli manufacture. Cuba's vigorous support for the Palestinians doesn't keep it from having economic relations with Israel, which maintains a very low profile on the island."

Regarding undeniable intolerant aspects of the Cuban revolution one has to consider a similar intolerance in the exile Cuban community in Miami. People there celebrate terrorists like Orlando Bosch who organized the blowing up of a civilian Cuban airliner and killed 73 people as some kind of heroes. A left-leaning radio station such as Radio Progreso Alternativa has had to suffer all kinds of sabotage. The hard-liners of this right-wing extremist community have for more than forty years struggled to convince the US government to invade Cuba (the failed Bay of Pigs invasion is one blatant example of this).

So I think it is not surprising that Cuba sometimes takes harsh measures to defend its sovereignty. Regarding dissidents: There are many dissident organizations that are not financed by the US and that are tolerated by the Cuban government. Cuba ... even according to dissidents ... have rather few political prisoners. In fact many US supported regimes have many more. According to Wayne S. Smith, former head of the US interest section in Havana under Jimmy Carter, Cuba is gradually developing into a more open society. There is for example freedom of religion (unlike in Vietnam or China) and many Christian organizations have their own publications that are by no means being censored.

And finally: If Cuba were such a tyranny, why do almost all of those thousands of doctors who spend two years working in Latin American countries, return to Cuba when they have finished their job. Why don't they escape to such wonderful free democratic countries such as Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua which have been dominated by the USA for decades and have had such a wonderful social and economic development?

In Venezuela the Chavez government has done a lot to make internet available to everyone in public institutions, so I cannot see that Luis Zuleta could possibly have anything to complain about there."
http://havanajournal.com/culture_comments/P625_0_3_0 /

[WriteDown]

151. ?

Who to believe. Random posting on Cuban business site by "Bjorn Blomberg", random swede with a hotmail account or RWB.

[Billy Burnett]

152. Um. That article was an extract from Walter Lipman's "Two Months in Cuba".

You can believe whatever you want. I posted the article for a little balance to the RW talking points you seem to gravitate to. Nothing wrong with learning from someone's actual experience in Cuba.

Hey, can you post a link to the Penal Code Articles 216 and 217 of the Cuban constitution, that you posted an article link discussing it's abuses?

Thanks

[WriteDown]

153. Once again...

accusations that groups like RWB is RW. Guess their actual experience does not count.

Sure thing! http://www.cubaverdad.net/repressive_laws.htm

[Billy Burnett]

154. I'll ask yet again. Do you have a link to the actual constitution's articles 216 and 217?

Not a twisted interpretation of them, as you've posted twice, the actual Articles in the penal code.

If you're going to discuss the constitution, it would be helpful to be referring to the actual articles, not just a criticism of them without posting them.

Thanks

[WriteDown]

160. Yes, they are easy to find....

in Spanish. For some reason the complete doc is tough to find in English. Here is a copy. I can help translate if you have trouble.

http://www.ruleoflawandcuba.fsu.edu/law-penal-code.cfm

[Ka hrnt]

156. Oh, they trust them...

But only when they're reporting on the "right" countries. For example, if they're deploring something the US or its allies did, they're accurate. If they say something bad about say, Chavez or Castro, well, then they're funded by the CIA or Richard Scaife, etc., etc. Basically, if they agree with what you already believe, they're reliable. If they say something you don't like, they're not reliable... :eyes:

[Billy Burnett]

157. Except that some of the "they" have been to Cuba.

Unlike Cuba's detractors here, some of us have been to Cuba, so we can compare actual experiences to the reports from AI and HRW that come from US paid "dissident" operatives who have a financial incentive for their anti Cuba reports.

Do AI and HRW get funding from the US government and some RW foundations? Yes. Are all of their reports tainted by this? Probably not, but relying on the "some people say" style of reporting that comes from Cubanet paid "journalists" seriously compromises AI and HRW's accuracy/objectivity, and because their funding comes from foundations with an anti socialist and anti Cuba agendas it also compromises their objectivity - or at least lends legitimacy to questions as to their objectivity.

I'm sure that if HRW and AI got considerable funding from pro Castro and/or pro Chavez sponsors and foundations, and their reports came from pro Castro or pro Chavez paid operatives then your ilk would be calling them into question.

Since Castro and Chavez do not fund HRW or AI nor pay their operatives to produce ginned-up reports for cash, we can legitimately question and take into consideration that HRW and AI are slanted by their reporting methodology, their operative's reporting motivations, and their funding streams.

[Ka hrnt]

163. Attacking credibility rather than the claims--

Why am I not surprised?

"we can legitimately question and take into consideration that HRW and AI are slanted by their reporting methodology"

"Questioning" isn't refuting their claims. Or the fact that they're corroborated by basically every human rights organization out there, including the UN, which doesn't have the greatest relation with the Bush administration. Again, the preponderance of evidence (HRW, AI, the UN, etc. versus a handful of peoples' personal stories) is overwhelming indicative that Cuba's government is repressive. Period.

[Judi Lynn]

121. Glad to see you wanted to drag this topic into an unrelated thread, as well.

DU'ers have been discussing Cuban and gays a long, long time.

November 11, 2004

Cuba's Response to AIDS
A Model for the Developing World
By EDWIN KRALES

In April 2003, Cuba hosted FORO 2003-"the second forum on HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted diseases in Latin America and the Caribbean." This was a crucial conference. Except for Cuba (0.7%), the Caribbean has the 2nd highest rate of AIDS in the world (2.3%) after sub-Saharan Africa (9%). During the 6-day conference, 1483 delegates, worldwide, made dozens of presentations.

There was no U.S. delegation, but there were U.S. presenters. I was in Havana delivering needed medical supplies. Since 1990, I have been a nutritionist with the U.S. HIV community. In 1993 I began collecting donated surplus medical supplies for Cuba. I presented a paper on HIV/AIDS and body composition using state of the art Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis technology (BIA). BIA measures body cell mass (BCM), water, fat and other compartments in your body. Loss of more than 46% of normal BCM is incompatible with life. A unique BIA measurement, the phase angle (PA), best indicates long- range survival potential in the HIV infected. PA measures "strength" of an individual's cell membranes by changes in electrical conductivity. Healthy cells have higher PA than sick cells.

The conference was a success, in large part due to the sense of purpose that Cuba's HIV community always displays. My Cuban hosts were part of the conference organizing committee. They told me to prepare for some surprises. The 1st was that President Fidel
Castro attended both the opening and closing plenaries. He did not make a five-minute welcoming speech and leave. He participated in both events from start to finish because of the importance of the subject. For the world,s delegates, Castro's informed participation-reinforced Cuba's centrality in the worldwide fight against AIDS.

Another surprise was the participation of the World Bank. What was Ms. Debrework Zewdie, the Caribbean regional representative, doing at a conference in a communist country? At the closing ceremony, she bluntly explained that the World Bank fears the AIDS pandemic will trigger "regional economic collapse." Their view is that economic disaster is a fate worse than socialized medicine. She suggested that the developing world adopt Cuba's medical model as the strategy for fighting the pandemic.

Ms. Zewdie from the World Bank wasn't the only world specialist who recognized Cuba's superior way of dealing with AIDS. At the opening plenary, UNAIDS executive director Peter Piot praised Cuba as "one of the first countries to take AIDS seriously as a problem and provide a comprehensive response combining both prevention and care." What is it about Cuba's medical system that both adversaries and friends hold in such high regard?

More:
http://www.counterpunch.org/krales11112004.html

[WriteDown]

125. Its all related....

Kind of like this which is the actual LAW.

http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm#2._Right_to_leave_the_country._

Maybe you need to check some Spanish language cites for some more relevant info.

[Judi Lynn]

130. I asked you to post your information on Cuba's history with gay people.

You're going to have to limit yourself to discuss only one topic at a time, or nothing gets done. You can't cover everything simultaneously, which is natively understood among sentient people.

Go back, get that evidence you've got on Cuba's history with gay people you wanted to discuss.

[WriteDown]

134. I will when I am off of work....

If you don't want to respond to the article(or law for that matter) or can't, just say so.

[Judi Lynn]

137. Maybe you should read what people like former NY Times journalist Ann Louise Bardach

wrote, following tons of trips in and out of Cuba as research for one of her books:

In Cuba, one used to be either a revolucionario or a contrarevolucionario, while those who decided to leave were gusanos (worms) or escoria (scum). In Miami, the rhetoric has also been harsh. Exiles who do not endorse a confrontational policy with Cuba, seeking instead a negotiated settlement, have often been excoriated as traidores (traitors) and sometimes espías (spies). Cubans, notably cultural stars, who visit Miami but choose to return to their homeland have been routinely denounced. One either defects or is repudiated.

But there has been a slow but steady shift in the last decade-a nod to the clear majority of Cubans en exilio and on the island who crave family reunification. Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriots who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Page XVIII
Preface
Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

Copyright© 2002 by
Ann Louise Bardach

[WriteDown]

139. No thanks....

I'll trust the actual Cuban law and the Spanish language articles rather than glorified tourists.

[Billy Burnett]

141. You mean you'll trust RW spin on Cuban law rather than professional researchers.

Kind of like the crowds at a Palin rally.

[WriteDown]

142. Are the repukes writing Cuban statutes?

That's where you can find it.

[Billy Burnett]

149. Hey, WriteDown. I need some help finding something your article link referred to.

Penal Code Articles 216 and 217 of the Cuban constitution that you linked an article to, that laments Penal Code Articles 216 and 217.

Can you please find and post a link to Penal Code Articles 216 and 217 of the Cuban constitution?

Thanks.

[WriteDown]

162. here again

http://www.ruleoflawandcuba.fsu.edu/law-penal-code.cfm

[NashVegas]

94. Ramen Noodles - 6 packs for $1.00

And soooooo nutritious!

[Hydra]

4. That's true enough

I was thinking about how in 1997-99 I was eating far better than I am now because I had more funds to spend on food. Now I do the best I can, but where it used to be a game to figure out how to buy 50% of my food on sale, I'm having to buy all but the most essential stuff on sale.

[DangerDave921]

73. Total B.S.

That is not the same as rationing.

[mbperrin]

90. Okay, here's the link to an economics text, so that you can see that price IS rationing.

http://wps.prenhall.com/bp_casefair_econf_7e/30/7932/2030637.cw/index.html
The Price System: Rationing and Allocating Resources

We know that the interaction of supply and demand in a market system creates prices for the goods and services exchanged. Prices perform two major roles in market systems: 1) rationing the available goods and services, and 2) determining which goods and services are produced and how they're produced. Let us look at each of these in more detail.

Price rationing

First, prices perform a means of rationing scarce goods and services. This price rationing function answers the third basic question that economic systems must address: who gets the goods and services that are produced?

Remember, goods are not freely available (there is no free lunch). For a good to be freely available, there must be enough to go around freely to everyone who wants it. While this may be true for a handful of goods, virtually all of the millions of goods and services exchanged in any economic system are not freely available. Because there is not enough to go around freely, not everyone who wants a good will be able to get it. Such goods must be rationed, which means there must be some mechanism for deciding who gets some of the goods and who does not.

In market systems, such rationing is done by price. You can have a particular good if you are willing and able to pay the market price. If not, you look for some alternative.


LOTs MORE! Please take Econ 101 for more information....

[WriteDown]

147. You are talking about rationing related to scarcity....

and price as a variable. I have posted previously that price creates a rationing system, but is not rationing. That requires scarcity or limited supply. Then again who can forget The Great McDonald's Shortage when the dollar menu was introduced. I remember seeing families lined up for blocks just trying to get a cheeseburger :eyes:.

[mbperrin]

158. Now you're being deliberately obtuse. The only reason we have

economics at all is because supply of all things is limited. Unlimited human desires and limited resources to meet them require a rationing device, since we cannot have all we want.

Please take that Econ 101 course and SOON!

Or you could just freight me all the lovely items you wish into existence that you no longer want - after all, you can just conjure more of whatever it is whenever you want due to the "magic" of the market system, right?

Whatever I don't want, I'll sell on eBay. You won't miss it or need any of the proceeds, because magically, you have all you want and need any time you want and need it, because, thank gawd, you don't live in Cuba, but here in the magic wonderful no shortage all price system miracle meeting all needs all the time against all comers USA!

And if I need a sarcasm tag here, you're not as bright as you think you are, you 19 year old wannabe debater....

Good day to you sir, I must return to the actual world now.

[WriteDown]

161. Haha...

Is everything really limited though? Is it really?? My initial argument was the just because I am not eating at a prime steakhouse, but eating at Outback instead, it is not a case of true rationing. There is no scarcity of prime or outback steaks. In fact there are seats available in both places every night. It is not a matter of scarcity, but price has created a rationing system. I am actually getting rid of a ton of stuff so although you are kidding it is tempting. I wish I was 18! More like 23, but the girl I was with then probably would've killed me if I stayed with her.

[DangerDave921]

165. Pricing is NOT rationing

Maybe this is a little too subtle for you to understand, but I'll try. Rationing - by definition - is the mandated limitation of goods. Some higher power -- usually government -- is limiting the number or quantity of goods you can have. It is a coerced limitation of goods. No matter who you are as a buyer, you can only buy "x" amount.

By contrast, pricing is a voluntary act by the person who produces or sells the goods. It is not a mandate from on high. I agree that pricing can certainly have the effect of rationing in the sense that pricing limits who can or cannot buy the goods, but it is not rationing. Let's say you've got Brand X of cheese that sells for $25 per pound. If I choose to spend that much, I can go to the store and buy 10 pounds of the stuff. There is no rationing telling me I can only buy one pound. Of course someone who can't afford it won't buy that cheese at all. But the cheese is not being rationed.

Peace. :)

[dipsydoodle]

2. I can't quite grasp this bit

U.S. law forces communist Cuba to use cash to purchase American farm goods

How come ? Does that mean they're simply not allowed credit ?

[Judi Lynn]

6. You've got it! The hard-right Cuban "exile" lobby is responsible for this.

There was a total embargo on everything, to incredible, extraterritorial degrees, including sales of any machinery including any parts with US copyrights on them, like dialysis machines, and all cancer treatment machines, all other medical equipment, all machines of every kind everywhere with any US copyrighted components, and, as another extraterritorial measure, protested throughtout the world, denial of the right to do trade in the U.S. for 6 months after any ship delivered any products to Cuba.

This effectively cut off trade with any companies wanting to deal with the US within 6 months of trade with Cuba, and ALL sale of machines bearing US ownership of copyrights on components.

In 2000, after Hurricane Michelle destroyed Cuba's food supply, and warehouses, the U.S. Congress, under Bill Clinton, arranged a humanitarian opening in the embargo to allow sale of SOME foods, and argricultural supplies, and the Cuban "exile" Congresspeople rode that legislation like the Furies, demanding that NO CREDIT is allowed, forcing Cuba to pay cash for every molecule of the limited choice food products available from the U.S., unlike all other countries. Many people everywhere were watching carefully, expecting the Cuban American "Exile" lobby to find a way to fix it so they could demand pre-payment, then sabotage the shipments of food so Cuba simply paid, then lost the food, too. Things like that have already happened over the decades, like destroying entire boatloads of sugar Cuba was attempting to export, in the 1960's, etc.

All islands have to import almost everything. No way to avoid it. Before the small window was allowed, Cuba had to pay ENORMOUS amounts of money importing rice from the few countries which were willing to trade, like Viet Nam. All food was far more expensive for Cubans than for others because of the vast distances over which the food traveled to get to Cuba.

Allowing absolutely no credit is the cruel twist applied by the ugly, murderous, spiteful Cuban right-wingers who are more than happy to see their countrymen suffer if it means they can be weakened, and someday brought to their knees so painfully they will give up and accept the Miami scum back as their overlords.

[mamameow]

8. right wing devils

so what has the u.s. gotten out of systematically starving an island of people? these cuban right wingers are devils, not a REAL christian bone in their bodies. this government promotes their behavior for the vote. castro is gone, raul will not be too far behind fidel, given his age. this country is so full of LOVING christians! i hope the real god has a special place for them (if there is a god). can't we do the christian thing, put our differences behinds us and move on in dealing with cuba? these cuban right wingers are revengeful children throwing a temper tantrum. as soon as the embargo is lifted so american tourists can go there, i am on a plane for vacation. now is the time for talks with the government of cuba. cuba'a treatment of it's citizens is not as bad as mexico and we talk to them.

[bitchkitty]

14. I don't think Christian or non-Christian has anything to do with it.

It's common decency. I'm wary of so-called "Christians" anyway.

[Peace Patriot]

12. Thank you, Judi Lynn, for that incredible statement. I didn't know some of these things.

And you put it all together with brilliance and passion. Wonderful statement of this situation, of the bmost powerful country in the world punishing the littlest and least powerful, a place hit by hurricanes and U.S. boycotts, and yet where people who don't have enough food believe in having less so no one starves.

Whatever one thinks of Cuba's political system--which is more like the English monarchy than it ever was like Stalinist Russia, in my opinion--Cuba has things to teach us. And "we're all in this together" is one of those things.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Americans are no doubt going to feel like Rip Van Winkle, completely bewildered

when the travel ban is lifted and they are legally allowed to travel to Cuba, the way many, many other Americans have done ILLEGALLY already, and discover the face of Cuba is so much different from what they've been led to believe.

You have to wonder if the Florida lobby is starting to panic these days as the chance this will happen draws nearer and nearer. Their lies are going to be exposed in a major way when Americans come and go to and from Cuba in the way so many Canadians, Europeans, Latin Americans, Australians, Asians have been doing already for years and years.





Are these the images of little people living in desperate fear?
From the website of Pastors For Peace, an American organization which travels in a caravan each year across the border to take needed items like computers, medical equipment, bicycles, even the buses themselves (_Bush's State Department Roger Noriega had his people intimidating Bermudian officials once it was determined they planned to sell their used buses to Cuba. As a result, Bermuda backed down and denied the sale of these badly needed buses) and other materials in a bid to bring attention to the U.S. embargo on Cuba. The equipment is always confiscated at the border by the U.S., but a lot of it does finally make it to Cuba if I have the facts right:

WONDER WHY GEORGE W. DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THE CUBAN PEOPLE? Find out this July! Come with us to meet:

• A healthy people, with free health care, who live on average to age 77 – the same as the same as those in the U.S. – yet some die prematurely and many others suffer unnecessary pain because the blockade denies them access to much of the world’s medicines and medical equipment.
  
  
• A cultured people who receive free education at all levels and have produced many outstanding scientists, artists, musicians, scholars and sports stars. Yet they cannot get access to many basic supplies, because of a 47 year long economic blockade by the U.S. government.
  
  
• A proud and humane people who share what they have. Cuba has sent tens of thousands of their doctors around the world to provide free health care to others in need, yet when 1600 Cuban doctors were ready to fly to New Orleans to help out after Hurricane Katrina, the Bush administration wouldn’t let them in – just like it tries to stop US citizens from visiting Cuba.

More information:
http://www.ifconews.org/

[lelgt60]

7. I truly hope Obama lifts the embargo

If we can't make peace and live with our closest neighbor, how can we have the moral authority to deal with countries elsewhere in the world.

I understand not wanting Russian missiles there in the '60's (and I also understand the Russian's not wanting our missiles in Turkey). But that was 50 years ago. Talk about not giving up the cold war.

This policy is just immoral.

[Joe Chi Minh]

9. So, that's what happens when the Hidden Hand "throws in the towel",

I suppose! That Hidden Hand's so unreliable. Ask the Chicago Boys. (Just as I wrote "Chicago", McCain said it on the box! Didn't catch what he was gibbering about)

[ohio2007]

11. the destruction of 30 percent of the island's crops by hurricanes Gustav and Ike last month.

caused the ration, not some "tin foil conspiracy" plotters.

[EFerrari]

13. Are you the last person on Earth that doesn't know there is an embargo?

[ohio2007]

25. You forget it's CONGRESS that keeps the embargo in place.

and you applaude $700 buillion bailouts !

go figger

LOL. You did not read the article as to the sentence about hurricane crop damages ?


hey, no worries, they can follow the Chavez doctrine to get them out of the hurricane season.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c83_1223734636


at least you can finally celebrate the capitalist systems failure that will give rise in soup lines in the 'free world'.

psst;
stock up on Campbells

[EFerrari]

37. How you got any of that out of my post is a mystery to me.

lol

[ohio2007]

39. doesn't take much to confuse you does it ? lol

Your knowledge of how the government,especially CONgress, functions is a mystery to you


But anyway,

Cuba rejects US aid offer

Reuters | Tuesday, 16 September 2008
Cuba has rejected an offer from the United States of US$5 million (NZ$7.7 million) in relief aid for hurricane victims, the US State Department said, appealing to Havana to reconsider its decision.


However, Washington has licensed about $250 million in agricultural sales to Cuba since the island was struck by hurricanes in the last few weeks, including lumber for rebuilding, State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said.

On Saturday, Washington told Havana it was committed to giving up to $5 million in aid for Cuban hurricane victims and could fly in emergency relief as soon as Cuba authorized the move, McCormack said.

On Sunday "the Cuban government informed us that they would not accept a donation from the United States," he said.


snip


"We regret that Cuban authorities have not accepted this offer of humanitarian assistance for the Cuban people."

snip


http://www.stuff.co.nz/4694494a12.html

"the Cuban government would not accept a donation from the United States," bc it was going to aid pro reform "agents" in that country ;-)

There was a thread about this article last month but it sank like a rock, was moved or got locked. That tends to happen as you know.

Confused as to why ?

[EFerrari]

40. No. I'll stick with how you draw false conclutions for ten, Alex. n/t

[ohio2007]

41. Why don't you take "1962 Acts of congress " for $1000

[EFerrari]

47. Because it was your assumption, not a fact of this exchange. n/t

[Vinca]

15. If there is a food crisis in Cuba it's immoral if we don't respond with aid. nt

[ohio2007]

42. It was refused last month

you missed that thread

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4694494a12.html

[Judi Lynn]

48. They asked the embargo be dropped. It appears you missed that thread.

US says 'no' to Cuba's request for hurricane embargo relief
US News


Sep 8, 2008, 12:03 GMT

Rabat, Morocco/Washington - The United States Sunday gave a resounding 'no' to a request by the Cuban government that it lift its decades-old embargo for a limited time to allow relief goods and reconstruction materials to be traded to the disaster-struck island.

Hurricane Ike was headed for landfall on the communist island in the Caribbean Sunday evening, little more than a week after Hurricane Gustav left 100,000 homeless. Over the weekend, Cuba evacuated at least 250,000 people to safety from its eastern regions from the newest storm.

Speaking to reporters in Rabat, Morocco, Rice criticized the authoritarian passing of power from one Castro to another earlier this year, which she said is 'not acceptable in a Western hemisphere that is democratic, and it is not acceptable for the Cuban people.'

'So, I don't think that, in the context that we see now, that a lifting of the embargo would be wise,' she said, according to a transcript released in Washington.

More:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/usa/news/article_1429452.php/US_says_no_to_Cubas_request_for_hurricane_embargo_relief

[ronnie624]

50. Oops.

Reuters 'forgot' to mention the initial paltry and insulting $100,000 offer which was increased only after criticism. They also choose to perpetuate a lie about the paternalistic, dignity stripping precondition of an "inspection team". Not to mention the fact that the "aid" would be distributed by a CIA front organization.

I didn't miss that other thread.

[Judi Lynn]

51. That was no "offer," was it? They knew Cuba wouldn't accept an insult like that when they made it.

As it played, apparently they gave a few arrogant people who refuse to spend the time learning about US/Cuban history the impression the benevolent, all suffering, "too kind for its own good" US government has been slighted by an upstart commie rogue nation.

So predictable.

[ronnie624]

52. I would have rjected the 'offer' also.

No doubt Cuba is busily rebuilding without 'aid' from the U.S.

[Judi Lynn]

54. All done by the same country which has taught itself to make its own parts for cars from the 1950's,

and taught itself to create a whole new method of organic agriculture which attracts people eager to learn about it from all over the world, after the Soviet Union withdrew commercial ties to Cuba after Reagan demanded it as a condition of the new relationship between Russia and the United States, and Cuba was left completely stranded.

Through adversity the Cuban people have only grown stronger and more resourceful. They are simply amazing.

[slackmaster]

21. Rather than post some snotty remark about the failures of the Cuban economy, I'll just say

This is a very sad story. I am sorry to learn of the suffering of the people of Cuba.

[ohio2007]

26. They use the Chavez model or is it the other way around

Free Chicken soup for people. Venezuela


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c83_1223734636

I know, just BBC shilling for the RW. Don't go there

[MetaTrope]

24. I'd like to see how the U.S. would deal with a trade embargo from, say, China

Come to think of it, we may end up with one at that.

[Poseidan]

28. better yet

What would the U.S. do if Bin Laden moved to Moscow?

The U.S. government, over the past 40 years (of mostly Confederate rule), has made many a foolish policy.

[lostnfound]

36. Why isn't Venezuela helping?

I know why the US isn't helping; it's because we are run by rightwing idiots terrified that the ideas in a little island country are somehow threatening to us.
But I would think that Hugo would be able to help them out.

[EFerrari]

38. He is. He actually went to Cuba himself, twice iirc, since the storm.

Cuban Foreign Minister Expresses Appreciation for Hurricane Aid
By Redaction AHORA / Wednesday, 08 October 2008 / [email protected]

Cuban Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque has expressed his country's appreciation for the international community's assistance following the devastation caused by Hurricanes Gustav and Ike. Pérez Roque is heading the Cuban delegation to a meeting of Latin American and Caribbean foreign ministers in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

snip

On Monday in Rio de Janeiro, Pérez Roque said that he especially wanted to thank the readiness shown by Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, who was in constant contact with his Cuban counterpart, Raúl Castro, and offered emergency humanitarian aid to the island.

The top Cuban diplomat pointed out that many other countries also offered assistance and in particular spoke about Venezuela’s cooperation and assistance which “do not have precedents in the history of Cuba and the personal disposition of President Hugo Chavez.”

http://www.ahora.cu/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=607&Itemid=28

[ohio2007]

43. With oil dropping from about a $143 high plunging to $80 bbl., just how much help can Hugo deliver ?

How far will the price of oil fall ? How many promises will go broken next year as a result of the globalization collapse?

[Billy Burnett]

44. Interesting point.

As they have during seriously hard times before, the Cuban people will get by. They won't panic. They'll get to work. They've done it before, and they'll do it again.

They will use their ingenuity combined with solidarity to marshal their resources and assure that no one goes hungry or homeless. Community farms are being quickly rebuilt after the storms, and more will continue to develop. Just as always, even during the hardest of times, Cubans will build more schools, train more teachers, and will be continually improving their community social infrastructure. The exact same is true for their universal health care system. More clinics will be built, more doctors and auxiliaries will be trained, and Cubans will have even more access to health care. As always in Cuba, children and their wellbeing will come first.

They do this because they are seriously dedicated to their human values. No matter how poor their small country, they will work shoulder to shoulder to ensure their security and sovereignty.

Next year, as a result of the globalization collapse, many will be forced into homelessness in the US, have no access to routine health care, and be lucky if they can secure nutrition and an education for their children. This just will not happen in Cuba. Sure, there's work to do, but they will share their burden so that no one falls through the cracks even if Venezuela can't fulfill all of it's promises, and you can be sure that Cubans and Venezuelans will work together to mitigate the impact of the downturn.

[EFerrari]

46. Probably not as many as you'd wish. At the moment, Chavez

outspends us in aid to Latin America by between 4-5X.

[tylerdee]

72. I was just fixing to say that

[ohio2007]

167. Some don't want that kind of thought to flow freely around here

;)

Analysts: "Venezuela needs the price of oil to exceed USD 90 to pay expenses"


This topic has been moved by the moderator to


'anything dealing with Latin America issues'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3544752

Deutsche Bank says that next year Venezuela and Iran require that the average price of oil remains at USD 95; Saudi Arabia at USD 55 and Russia at USD 70.
What kind of saber rattling will be going on during Baracks watch to get oil back up over $100 bbl ?
Some kind of invasion...somewhere in the world that disrupts oil flow ?
in the meantime, relax,
and enjoy 'the fall'

Oil prices decline still further
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3545155

[Judi Lynn]

49. You should have been keeping an eye on the news. It was no secret he offered home

very quickly.

Why would you imagine he didn't?

[lostnfound]

55. I would be surprised to find out

that he hadn't. I have respect for Hugo and I know that he has been friendly toward Cuba. Since Venezuela is doing well financially now because of oil, I would have expected that Venezuela could single-handedly solve Cuba's food problem. Perhaps that is naiive.

I miss plenty of news, between work and child-raising.

[EFerrari]

56. The good news is that Brasil is also offering aid

and it's likely that others are, too. Maybe the only good thing Junior has done is to unite Latin America.

:hi:

[Billy Burnett]

57. It is only Americans and US residents who are forbidden from helping Cubans (by the US gov).

While the Bush policy supporters bring up one canard after another in their attempt to distract from the solidarity that most of the world has with Cuba, they continually ignore that ordinary and decent Americans cannot reach out to Cubans in Cuba like citizens of most of the rest of the world's nations.

This cruelty is brought to us by the dictate of the US government. This is despite the fact that a majority of Americans (and their elected representatives) desire lifting the embargo on Cuba. Every effort to overturn the US sanctions on Cuba, in congress, have been killed in closed markup committees by politicians funded by 'special interests' that profit from the sanctions in one way or another. Even though sanction killing amendments have been VOTED into bills in both houses of congress, these amendments are simply disappeared in the markup process by these aforementioned politicians.

Yet, it is the US that demands Cuban government democratic "reforms". All while Cubans have government that has represented the citizen's ideals and goals - exemplified by their infrastructure that serves the well being of all the people.

So, while the Bush policy supporters try to distract with falsely insinuating questions like 'where's Chavez, why isn't he helping' and other such lame commentary, it is the US that isn't helping. Worse yet, it is the US government that actively prevents good and decent Americans from directly helping the good and decent people of Cuba who are just ≈ 90 miles away.

If the true concern is for helping Cubans in this crisis - good and decent Cubans who desire to be our friends, who desire to share all for the common good of all people, Cubans who formed the Henry Reeves Brigade and assembled them quickly and unconditionally offered direly needed aid to the US in its crisis - then it is time for the reform of the US government.


Viva the good a decent people of Cuba, who constantly remind us that even small countries armed simply with compassion, education, socialism, and solidarity with the least among us can do great things!

[diamidue]

84. I love you! n/t

[Parentalcontrol]

45. Obama plans to ease up the embargo, and with good reason

The embargo has produced nothing but bad outcomes for both Cubans and their relatives in the US.

[Billy Burnett]

62. Got a link? Last I heard Obama supports the embargo.

He does favor relaxing the newest Cuban-American travel and remittance restrictions that Bushco put in place, but I've not read nor heard anything of his plans to ease up on the embargo.

If you have a source that delves into your post title, I'd like to read it.

Thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

63. Very glad you mentioned Cuba offered 1,500 doctors to be sent immediately to the US after Katrina

devastated New Orleans and Mississippi. There were even photos around of the doctors assembled, sitting in an auditorium with their medical bags, and photos of them packing their bags.

From CNN:

Castro offers medical aid to U.S.
Saturday, September 3, 2005; Posted: 4:33 a.m. EDT (08:33 GMT)

HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Cuban President Fidel Castro has offered to send help to the United States in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

At a nightly roundtable program on state-run television Friday, the Cuban leader said his nation was ready to send 1,100 doctors and 26 tons of medicine and equipment.

"Others have sent money; we are offering to save lives," he said.

Castro -- an enemy of U.S. President George W. Bush and frequent subject of condemnation from the White House -- said he would not comment on the U.S. government's response to the tragedy because "this is not the time to kick an adversary -- while he's down."

Castro said the doctors he was offering have international experience.

More:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/03/katrina.castro/index.html

Castro: U.S. hasn't responded to Katrina offer
From Lucia Newman
CNN

Monday, September 5, 2005; Posted: 11:48 a.m. EDT (15:48 GMT)

HAVANA, Cuba (CNN) -- Cuban President Fidel Castro told more than 1,500 doctors Sunday night that American officials had made "absolutely no response" to his offer to send them to the U.S. Gulf Coast to help victims of Hurricane Katrina.

Castro, a longtime adversary of the United States, initially offered to send 1,100 doctors and at least 26 tons of supplies and equipment, but the Communist leader announced Sunday during a televised speech that he had increased the number of physicians to 1,586. Each doctor would carry about 27 pounds of medicine.

"You could all be there right now lending your services, but 48 hours have passed since we made this offer, and we have received absolutely no response," Castro said at Havana's Palace of the Revolution.

"We continue to wait patiently for a response. In the meantime, all of you will be taking intensive courses in immunology and also something that I should be doing -- an intensive brush-up course in English."

More:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/09/05/katrina.cuba/



I'm sure you clearly remember, also, that immediately after September 11, Cuba offered the use of its airports to the United States, in case there was a need to reroute air traffic outside the US, for any reason.

Also, Cuban artists were in California to attend the Latin Grammy awards, and it was scheduled for September 11 long in advance, and then cancelled due to the disaster. The artists, one of them Chucho Valdez and his band, remained in the area and they ALL went to the local Red Cross and donated their blood before returning to Cuba.

Also, a story from that time:

IV. IN HAVANA, VISITING US PHYSICIANS SPEAK OF COMPASSION OF CUBAN PEOPLE

Havana, September 14 (RHC)--In Havana on Friday, a group of prominent US medical experts highlighted Friday the attitude of compassion and sympathy shown by the Cuban population with regard to the tragedy in the United States. The visitors also condemned Washington's blockade against Cuba.

The team of US doctors, five eminent physicians, including two former surgeons general, travelled to Havana accompanied by Bob Schwartz, executive director of the New York-based Disarm Education Fund, an organization that has brought over $65 million worth of humanitarian aid to the island over the past few years.

Schwartz told RHC he was deeply impressed by the reaction of the Cuban population with regard to the tragedy the US people are now living.

"I think all of us, this entire delegation, was overwhelmed by the concern that all of the Cubans, not just the doctors, not just the health officials, everybody in Cuba has expressed to us, whether it's a taxi driver, a hotel employee -people on the street come up to us. And everyone is shocked by what they've seen on television, hearing on the radio, and they're all very concerned, they're all very sympathetic, Schwartz said.

The director of the Disarm Education Fund also told RHC that he's shocked about the events in the U.S., but has mixed feelings:

"I have very mixed feelings about what I see. I'm watching the television and I'm shocked at what has happened in the United States. But I also think about the way the embargo, over the past 40 years, has created so much need and suffering and death in Cuba. I think it's a time while we're looking at how disasters affect the United States we should also be looking at the impact that embargoes -- it's not just the Cuban embargo, it's all embargoes. They kill just as surely as bombs and bullets and we need to end embargoes."

More:
http://www.ibike.org/cuba/911.htm#I

[Billy Burnett]

64. Thanks for posting those stories/links. IMO, no other country is more deserving of our friendship.

Cuba has done much with little, and anywhere in the world where there is a disaster Cuba is ready and willing to unconditionally offer whatever critically needed help they can muster - even to the self declared enemy state of their own nation. Cubans recognize the values and importance of solidarity with ordinary people of all nations.

There is a lot for Americans to learn from them. I know that I have.

[Judi Lynn]

70. Christian Science Monitor: End the US-Cuba embargo: It's a win-win

Normalizing ties would be smart policy and politics.
By Jennifer Gerz-Escandon
from the October 9, 2008 edition

Atlanta - Bringing an end to the decades-old US-Cuba embargo is no longer just a noble but hopeless idea. Conditions have changed to the point where restoring normal economic ties would make for smart policy – and savvy politics.

Even as Cubans recover from hurricanes Gustav and Ike, their desire to end the embargo remains strong. In rejecting a modest initial offer of US aid on Sept. 4, Cuban President Raúl Castro called instead for the whole enchilada of normalized economic relations. The United States is equally resolute in its nearly 50-year-old opposition to the socialist dictatorship. As simply put by the CATO Institute, Washington's chief rationale for the embargo has been to "compel a democratic transformation" in Cuba.

Yet common ground exists. In broad terms, both sides want national security and economic opportunity. Now is the time to pursue those shared interests. Mutually beneficial opportunities in three areas – agricultural trade, energy development, and immigration – could provide the foundation for a postembargo relationship.

~snip~
For its part, by ending the embargo, the US simultaneously gains security through stability in Cuba. More important, by investing in the future prototype for emerging markets – a 42,803-square-mile green energy and technology lab called Cuba – America gains a dedicated partner in the search for energy independence.

~snip~
Retiring the "wet-foot, dry-foot" policy and normalizing immigration laws could stop the Cuban brain drain, end charges of a US immigration double standard, and save hundreds of millions of dollars for the US taxpayers who must fund four different agencies to implement this policy.

More:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1009/p09s02-coop.html

[amyrose2712]

71. Very interesting posts about Cuba...Thanks for the info. n/t

[democrat2thecore]

85. The irony: Embargo on Cuba...yet trade to the nines with China - go figure -nt

[gatorboy]

92. No shit. No one holds a grudge quite like the good ole US of A.

[wvbygod]

118. Cuba will pull through

America had its depression and dustbowl, Cuba can handle this on their own just fine.

[EFerrari]

146. Yes, Cuba is a testiment to no matter how much the US tries to hurt you

at any cost to your people, you can pull through.