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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 02:54 AM
Original message
"Anarchism in America"
A colorful and provocative survey of anarchism in America, the film attempts to dispel popular misconceptions and trace the historical development of the movement.

The film explores the movement both as a native American philosophy stemming from 19th century American traditions of individualism, and as a foreign ideology brought to America by immigrants.

The film features rare archival footage and interviews with significant personalities in anarchist history including Murray Boochkin and Karl Hess, and also live performance footage of the Dead Kennedys.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/anarchism-in-america/
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. This does not belong in the Socialist Progressives group
We are not Anarchists.

Besides, a new study has shown that when you remove the labels "left" and "right" "liberal" or "consrvative" the majority of Americans prefer the Swedish economic distribution over the American system.

"92 percent of Americans would choose to live in a society with far less income disparity than the US, choosing Sweden's model over that of the US.

What's more, the study's authors say that this applies to people of all income levels and all political leanings: The poor and the rich, Democrats and Republicans are all equally likely to choose the Swedish model.

In other words, if Americans don't see a label meant to scare them, the majority want social democracy in this nation."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Historically, anarchists and socialists came from the same roots,
and generally worked very closely together, with frequent "cross-overs". Another term for anarchism is "libertarian socialism". Would you also have become incensed, had I made reference to Noam Chomsky here? --- Or to the principals of the Haymarket Affair?

Since your concept of "socialism" centers on the Swedish model, how about those uncritical references to Stalinists that adorn this Forum?
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Libertarian? That is just another word for Republican and has NOTHING to do with Socialism or
Libertarian? That is just another word for Republican and has NOTHING to do with Socialism or Progressives. That is why I responded that your post is simply in the wrong forum.

Anarchist
Definitions of anarchism on the Web:

* a political theory favoring the abolition of governments
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Anarchism is a political philosophy which considers the state undesirable, unnecessary and harmful, and instead promotes a stateless society, or anarchy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

* Libertarian socialism (sometimes called socialist anarchism,Ostergaard, Geoffrey. "Anarchism". A Dictionary of Marxist Thought. Blackwell Publishing, 1991. p. 21.Noam Chomsky, Carlos Peregrn Otero. Language and Politics. AK Press, 2004, p. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism_(social)

http://www.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&q=define...


Progressives
The term "progressive" is today often used in place of "liberal." Although the two are related in some ways, they are separate and distinct political ideologies and should not be used interchangeably. The reason for this confusion might partly be rooted in the political spectrum being two-dimensional; social liberalism is a tenet of modern progressivism, whereas economic liberalism (and its associated deregulation) is not. According to John Halpin, senior advisor on the staff of the Center for American Progress, "Progressivism is an orientation towards politics. It's not a long-standing ideology like liberalism, but an historically-grounded concept... that accepts the world as dynamic." Progressives see progressivism as an attitude towards the world of politics that is broader than conservatism vs. liberalism, and as an attempt to break free from what they consider to be a false and divisive dichotomy.<7><8>

Cultural Liberalism is ultimately founded on the belief that the major purpose of the government is to protect rights. Liberals are often called "left-wing", in contrast to "right-wing" conservatives. The progressive school, as a unique branch of contemporary political thought, tends to advocate certain center-left or left-wing views that may conflict with mainstream liberal views, despite the fact that modern liberalism and progressivism may still both support many of the same policies (such as the concept of war as a general last resort).

American progressives tend to support international economics: they advocate progressive taxation and oppose the growing influence of corporations. Progressives are in agreement on an international scale with left-liberalism in that they support organized labor and trade unions, they usually wish to introduce a living wage, and they often support the creation of a universal health care system. Yet progressives tend to be more concerned with environmentalism than mainstream liberals In the United States, liberals and progressives are often conflated, and in general are the primary voters of the Democratic Party which has a "large tent" policy, combining similar if not congruent ideologies into large voting blocs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism#Relation_to_...

Two totally different ideologies, one believes in NO government, the other in a very active government focused on helping people and curbing corporate abuses.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. "Libertarian? That is just another word for Republican....."
Edited on Sun Sep-26-10 03:10 PM by pnorman
That's as good an example of one-dimensional thinking that I've seen on DU in quite some time. It comes close to being a knee-jerk reaction to the word "libertarian". For a two-dimensional approach, look this site over: http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

From the FAQ:

You can't be libertarian and left wing

This is almost exclusively an American response, overlooking the undoubtedly libertarian tradition of European anarcho-syndicalism. It was, after all, the important French anarchist thinker Proudhon who declared that property is theft.

On the other side of the Atlantic, the likes of Emma Goldman were identified as libertarians long before the term was adopted by some economic rightwingers. And what about the libertarian collectives of the mid-late 1800s and 1960s ?

Americans like Noam Chomsky can claim the label 'libertarian socialist' with the same validity that Milton Friedman can be considered a 'libertarian capitalist'.

The assumption that economic deregulation inevitably delivers more social freedom is flawed. The welfare states of, for example, the Nordic region, abolished capital punishment decades ago and are at the forefront of progressive legislation for women, gays and ethnic minorities - not to mention anti-censorship. Such established high-tax social democracies consistently score highest in the widely respected Freedom House annual survey on democratic rank eg Denmark ranks 2, Sweden 3 and Norway 7, while comparatively free markets such as the US, Singapore and China rate 15,74 and 121 respectively (this detailed checklist can be viewed at http://www.worldaudit.org/civillibs.htm ).

Despite their higher taxes, the social democracies' degree of social freedoms would presumably be envied by genuine libertarians in more socially conservative countries.

Our point is that a regulated economy and a strong public sector are not necessarily authoritarian, and a deregulated economy with a minimal public sector is not necessarily socially libertarian.

Interestingly, many economic libertarians express to us their support for or indifference towards capital punishment; yet the execution of certain citizens is a far stronger assertion of state power than taxation. The death penalty is practised in all seriously authoritarian states. In Eastern Europe it was abolished with the fall of communism and adoption of democracy. The United States is the only western democracy where capital punishment is still practised.


On edit: I was surprised that you didn't fault me for seeming to espouse anarchism (aka: "libertarian socialism"), while sporting an Obama avatar!
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm not arguing for or against your views - just post in the correct forum
Edited on Sun Sep-26-10 04:25 PM by txlibdem
Please move your post to the Anarchy or Libertarian groups. They would love to have an in-depth discussion with you.

Please move your post. Please contact a moderator if you need help in doing so.

Quote:
"The mission of the DU Socialist Progressives Group is to link Socialist ideas and suggestions for political change to a Progressive framework, with the end result being positive and forward looking discussion and solidarity.
"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Less than two dozen postings in this Forum this year so far.
And you feel it's getting crowded out by "alien ideologies"??? Contact the mods yourself, and ask them to create that "Anarchy or Libertarian" group. And while you're at it, also ask them to move any references to the Haymarket Affair over there!
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-26-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "...two dozen postings..."
I had meant "two dozen threads", but the edit window had expired. But the total number of replies to those threads wasn't very much, so I wasn't too far off the mark.

From Wiki:

Libertarian socialism
.
.
.
Overview

Libertarian socialism is a philosophy with diverse interpretations, though some general commonalities can be found in its many incarnations. Its proponents generally advocate a worker-oriented system of production and organization in the workplace that in some aspects radically departs from neoclassical economics in favor of democratic cooperatives or common ownership of the means of production (socialism).<16> They propose that this economic system be executed in a manner that attempts to maximize the liberty of individuals and minimize concentration of power or authority (libertarianism).

Libertarian socialists are strongly critical of coercive institutions, which often leads them to reject the legitimacy of the state in favor of anarchism.<17> Adherents propose achieving this through decentralization of political and economic power, usually involving the socialization of most large-scale property and enterprise. Libertarian socialism tends to deny the legitimacy of most forms of economically significant private property, viewing capitalist property relations as forms of domination that are antagonistic to individual freedom.<18>
.
.
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

"Libertarian Socialism" is NOT an oxymoron, but claiming that: "Libertarian? That is just another word for Republican....." isn't a very perceptive comment.
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Libertarian Socialists/Anarchists are the ANTITHESIS of Socialist Progressives
Edited on Mon Sep-27-10 10:35 PM by txlibdem
They are polar opposites. Anarchy versus order. No government versus good government that looks out for the well-being of the people.

Libertarian Socialists believe in NO government, only unions, labor councils or the like. NO regulations. NO central government. That means NO control over polluters, NO reigning in abusive business practices from banks/lenders or industry. Etc., etc., etc. These are Republicon ideas that are part of the Republicon Party Platform and have been for 30 years.

"Government is not the solution, it is the problem" -- Ronald Reagan.

Libertarian socialists believe that "the exercise of power in any institutionalized form -whether economic, political, religious, or sexual-- brutalizes both the wielder of power and the one over whom it is exercised."<9> Libertarian socialists generally place their hopes in decentralized means of direct democracy such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions and workers' councils.<10>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism


How convenient. The Republicans want "Big Government" off the backs of the rich and the mega-corporations that they serve. And, surprise surprise surprise, so do the "Libertarian Socialists" you seem to admire. Both would leave the ordinary citizens powerless against the abuses and practices of big money, socially irresponsible companies, and multi-national corporations. If you don't believe me then why don't you take the money in your savings account and hire a team of lawyers to force any one of the big companies from doing what they're doing (assuming you even know, care, or would actually disagree with what they are doing). You'll soon find out that you have zero effect in your efforts against them.

The unfortunate inclusion of the word "Socialist" in the name "Libertarian Socialist" does not imply a connection to the Socialist movement or the "Socialist Progressive" movement in any way whatever. None. Zip. Nada. So I repeat that this is not the correct place for your posts.

Libertarian equals Republican:
"GOP Committee Gets behind Rand Paul"

http://www.hawaiipoliticalinfo.org/node/3355


And if, as you so disingenuously claim, Libertarian is not just another word for Republican then please tell me what part of the recent Republican Pledge on America do the Libertarians DISAGREE with.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-27-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. From an earlier thread in this Forum: "Is there anybody still here?"
"Arrived here a year ago and beginning to wonder what it was like before all this...purging and exodus."

I just started following this Forum myself a few days ago, and was wondering myself about "all those purges and exoduses". Your ultra-doctrinaire and exclusionary mindset tells me that you may have been part of that "Party Purification" crowd. Tex, Tell me that it isn't so!

in any event, it takes more than a single voice, no matter how shrill, to vote me off this island! I'm staying!
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. So the Socialist Progressives forum is now an outlet for the Republican agenda on DU???
I believe I understand you correctly. Just because few people post on the Bee Keepers forum in recent months does not give carte blanche to the Explosives Manufacturers Association to move in and take it over. You sir, are launching a REVOLUTION against this forum. I thought you Republicans were against revolution...
:rofl:

Ultra-doctrinaire and exclusionary? :rofl: So I guess I should invite posts from the Tea Party Nation and the National Rifle Association as well, according to your logic. As I will never go to that extreme, then, I stand guilty as charged!

I'm not quite sure why you feel I am attacking you personally when I have said time and again that I simply object to your placement of this thread in the Socialist Progressives Forum. There is a place where your pro-anarchy and pro-libertarian thoughts and opinions are welcomed. I bear you no animosity or ill will, I merely voiced my opinion that this forum is not that place.

:hi:

Indeed, I have no power to "vote you off this island" (humorous phraseology appreciated) so I guess I will have to vote myself off it. Please enjoy the silence.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. In essence, Tex has just introduced a resolution to vote me off this island.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :

Anyone here to second that motion?
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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. Ummmm ... All anarchists are socialists.
I am a socialist in the anarchist tradition. Some socialists are followers of Marx, some of us are libertarian socialists, in the spirit of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, and Marx's philosophical enemy, Mikhail Bakunin.

"All anarchists are socialists, but not necessarily all socialists are anarchists!" ~ Adolf Fischer (anarchist and Haymarket Square martyr)

In other words, there was a split between the "state socialists" of Marx and the libertarian socialists that followed the likes of Proudhon, Bakunin, Benjamin Tucker, Emma Goldmann, Alexander Berkman, etc., in the 1871 First International (otherwise known as the International Workingmen's Association).

You may look to "What Is Property?" by P.J. Proudhon, a contemporary of Marx to understand the socialist nature of anarchism.

If you need anymore information on anarchism, I'll be happy to oblige.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_Property%3F

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/HTML/Daniel_Guerin__Anar...




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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-28-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
12. "The Free Voice of Labor - The Jewish Anarchists" (video}
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=595651234654579...

This documentary is by the same group who produced the other one, "Anarchism In America"
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RadicalTexan Donating Member (607 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-10-10 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. I consider myself a libertarian socialist, and I'm in this forum
I am very thankful for this post, as I hadn't heard about this.

I am a socialist, a libertarian, and an anarchist.

Take that.

;)
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. We seem to be on the same page, Tex #2!
I had all but given up on this Forum, after having so recently joined it. But perhaps there's some hope for it after all, and we two can help breath some life into it.

Q: Does anyone question my use of the Obama avatar, while espousing libertarian socialism? (I frequently ask that of myself!)
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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-14-11 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks for the post.
Downloading via YouTube Downloader.

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