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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:10 PM
Original message
The Torture "Debate"
Like many of you, I am appalled that torture is even a subject for discussion on our national stage. I sit back and think "How the Hell did we end up here?". But I am equally dismayed at how we've allowed the right to frame the debate.

Time and time again, I hear our side speak out against the abuses in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib and elsewhere by talking about how immoral and appalling they are. While I wholeheartedly agree, these points will not shut down this outrageous dialog. It plays right into the stereotype of us on the left as coddling apologists who don't understand what horrible people terrorists are, and how urgent their threats can be. It feeds in to the premise that we're naive about the potential violence in the world today, that we lack the guts and backbone to do what must be done in a post-911 world, blah blah blah...

Even the argument that torture puts our own troops at risk is ineffective. When the right mentions the word "troops", they are talking about an abstract image of toy soldiers marching in lock step, following John Wayne to victory in some sort of nationalistic pipe dream. Any attempt to humanize them is viewed by the right as more maternalistic coddling.

There are two points that we need to bring to the discussion repeatedly and loudly, two points with the potency to shut down this absurd and disgusting dialog dead in its tracks.

Point 1: TORTURE DOESN'T WORK. Life is not an action movie. If Jack Bauer or Clint Eastwood or Batman beats up on a bad guy and threatens to drop him off a cliff, the cliche that he always provides accurate, complete information is a fantasy, a plot device intended to move a story along. Real torture is as effective in getting real information as watching Fox News. Just ask John McCain.

There are far more effective ways to extract information from an interrogation subject. The CIA knows this, the FBI knows this. The only ones who don't seem to get it are the neocon idiots in the Republican party.

Point 2: TORTURE IS AN ACT OF COWARDICE. There is nothing brave about pitting yourself against an opponent who is unarmed, blindfolded, and helpless. It does not take guts to attack someone who is incapable of fighting back. Am I calling our troops cowards? Of course not (my Rumsfeld moment for the day). That's why they shouldn't be mandated to commit such acts. It is beneath them. The only act more cowardly than torture is endorsing torture from thousands of miles away in a cushy office. The neocons would have us become a nation of amoral bullying cowards, like themselves.

These two points shatter the whole "we need to do what is necessary to defend ourselves" argument, and exposes this whole issue for what it is, an attempt by power hungry zealots to shred our cherished American principles and morals for their own depraved, deluded fantasies of violence and revenge.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent framing
We usually talk to them in a maternal voice when we need to shame them with "sissification". The question isn't whether torture is mean or not - that's their framing. It's whether it works and how it reflects on our country's manhood.

Well done!

Kicked and recommended
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Busy night
Sinking like a rock. Too bad. This is good stuff.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. It is, but I think people are busy with the vote
I'm sorry to say, no matter how much sense the OP makes, it takes more than sense to deal with the right wing tactics re: torture.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's not just the sense
It's a good framing. The thugs have been framing the debate around how much torture is okay. He frames the discussion around why it emasculates those who practice it.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-24-07 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
4. If Bushies knew how to get "accurate information" they wouldn't be Bushies.
What experience do 'faith-based' reichbots have with obtaining "accurate information"? Evolution? Geology? Elections? Global warming?

:eyes:
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markiegreg Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. "Hessian mercenaries ran their
bayonets through disarmed members of the Continental Army at the Battle of Long Island. At the Battle of Princeton, British soldiers killed wounded Continental Army soldiers that they found helpless on the battlefield. Nonetheless, when Washington prevailed in battle and captured hundreds of prisoners, he denied the American rebel soldiers’ appetite for vengeance."

"The American soldiers asked for permission from Washington to beat the prisoners with sticks until they were bloody and broken, but Washington told them, "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren." David Hackett Fischer, author of Washington's Crossing, writes... "Always some dark spirits wished to visit the same cruelties on the British and Hessians that had been inflicted on American captives. But Washington's example carried growing weight, more so than his written orders and prohibitions. He often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extend even to their enemies. ... Even in the most urgent moments of the war, these men were concerned about ethical questions ..."

"(T)orture is a terrible and monstrous thing, as degrading and morally corrupting to those who practice it as any conceivable human activity ...."-George Washington


When the pro-torture crowd attempts to point out "9/11 changed everything," remind them of Washington's words and the fact that if anything should have "changed" it should have occurred when the very existence of the country was at stake.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. That's also a good reply
and if people responded to direct information, that would work. Unfortunately, this is an emotional issue that requires pushing their emotional buttons in the right way to facilitate change.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 05:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. kick for the nightshift
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davekriss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 06:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. "Torture doesn't work"
I disagree with the OP'S first premise, that the U.S. uses torture to extract information from the enemy. No, that is not it at all. The Bush Regime uses torture for the same reasons GHWB and Reagan used torture during the American Holocaust in the Central America of the eighties -- i.e., to terrorize a target population for the purpose of breaking its will toward freedom and self-determination. The idea is to create paralyzing fear, apathy, and silence while the USG furthers its own self-serving agenda.

(This does not mean the low-ranking tools of the State, the intelligence officers and special ops forces and simple privates trained to inflict torture, are not told the purpose is to extract needed information. Surely they are told that by waterboarding this one, or tying this other one upside down, or by rendering this one to even more fiendish men, they are keeping America "safe". It takes a lot of psyop to turn a moral human being into an immoral State torturer.)

The USG is not stupid; they know very well about the ineffectiveness of torture as a means to uncover information. The history of the USG and torture, as with all regimes that deploy such means, is one of unleashed terror -- again, it's a means to instill terror into an insurgent population, to create fear and submission, to get one's way. Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are not exceptions except we've dropped the pretense of proxy. Now we do it ourselves. And why not? We have a half-century's experience teaching technique to the world's most vile right there in Ft. Benning, Georgia (SOA).

USG foreign policy is in major part about punishing those that show signs of opting out of neo-liberal arrangements that benefit our owning class (this the legacy of Nitze, Kennan, et alia). We don't invade Panama, escort a leader out of Haiti at gunpoint, mine the harbors of Nicaragua, or illegally bomb Baghdad because anyone perceives them, in themselves, to be a genuine threat. It's all about crushing the example of alternate models. The capitalist says Greed is Good in one breath and whispers apathy is better in the next -- all the more easy to exploit those who have no hope for a better future!

So leveling a Falujah, setting up shop at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram, Eastern Europe, elsewhere -- think of it as a brutal public narrative, meant to be seen by the family and friends of its victims. It is meant to intimidate, and it will grow more shrill (more vile) before it gets better as populations at home and abroad rise up against the USG and shout "ENOUGH!"

While I agree that the Bush Regime is something extra special -- for example, with Bush we for the most part drop the pretense of proxy, up till now we've generally just funded, equipped, trained, and coached -- but you have to acknowledge that torture has been part of the clandestine arsenal for some time. And it is meant to destroy the community from which the tortured are snatched. For example (from Torture: State Terror vs. Democracy, by Orlando Tizon, 2002),

    Modern torture is designed to destroy the personality of the individual and by extension the community. Ultimately, it is a strategy designed to defeat democratic aspirations at the root, which makes it a tool of choice for unpopular regimes around the world.

    <snip>

    Torture as practiced today is primarily for the purpose of maintaining unpopular governments in power. "We therefore refer to torture as an instrument of power. Our research has shown that the torturers who work for governments try to break down the victims' identity, and this affects the family and the society as well." Thus the main purpose of torture is not to extract a confession but to break the individual's humanity and make an example of the victim before the community and thereby suppress all political opposition. Torture is the ultimate weapon for terrorizing and controlling the individual human being and the community. When members of a community are made powerless and lose trust in themselves and in one another, building a democratic community is rendered extremely difficult and complex. Torture then is an instrument to destroy democratic aspirations and actions, as history has clearly shown.
I completely agree with this assessment. Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman, too, are good sources for the history of how torture is used by the United States and other repressive states. You're aware, of course, about the School of the Americas, about the roles of John Negroponte and Elliot Abrams while U.S. trained fiends tortured and disappeared labor leaders, students, peasants interested in better schools and hospitals. The fact that people like Negroponte, who denied that El Mozote ever occured, and Abrams who looked the other way while Batallion 3-16 was on the loose, the fact that they and others were invited back to positions of power in the Bush Regime told me where Bush stood with regards to use of torture before we ever heard of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. None of this surprises me.

We torture in the full light of day for audiences in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, and elsewhere as public narrative intended to strike terror into the hearts, minds, and will of those who stand up against the U.S. neo-imperial oil agenda. That is the purpose, not to extract information. Torture, in my opinion, is terrorism in microcosm -- if we as a nation torture, we as a nation are terrorists. Macrocosm or microcosm, both are public narrative, both intend to intimidate, both are despicably immoral.

I leave you with this (apologies, I often use),

    ...And so, you say, you've learned a little
    about starvation: a child like a supper scrap
    filling with worms, many children strung
    together, as if they were cut from paper
    and all in a delicate chain. And that people
    who rescue physicists, lawyers and poets
    lie in bed at night with reports
    of mice introduced into women, of men
    whose testicles are crushed like eggs.
    That they cup their own parts
    with their bedsheets and move themselves
    slowly, imagining bracelets affixing
    their wrists to the wall where the naked
    are pinned, where the naked are tied open
    and left to the hands of those who erase
    what they touch. We are all erased
    by them, and no longer resemble decent
    men. We no longer have the hearts,
    the strength, the lives of women.
    Your problem is not your life as it is
    in America, not that your hands, as you
    tell me, are tied to do something. It is
    that you were born to an island of greed
    and grace where you have this sense
    of yourself as apart from others. It is
    not your right to feel powerless. Better
    people than you were powerless.
    You have not returned to your country,
    but to a life you never left.

    -- Carolyn Forche, Return, 1980 (about her experience in El Salvador)

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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I actually agree
Perhaps I should have clarified, "Torture doesn't work as a method of gaining information". It's just a bit wordy.

And you are right that the USG does know this, and understands the true purpose of torture. This does not, however, stop them from using the premise of intelligence gathering as a justification for it, especially among the general populace. It is this that I am addressing. The more we can get the mainstream of our country to understand this, the less effective this little piece of propaganda becomes.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Eggzactly Torture does not work and it demeans US.
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pberq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. Kick & Nominated
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Error Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
12. Alan Dershowitz says torture is A-OK!
You know Alan, the champion of victims.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. And the issue that many of the detainees (in fact the majority)
Edited on Fri May-25-07 12:21 PM by mmonk
have committed no crimes against the United States has to be mentioned. The supporters of the heinous policies of bush and Cheney think that everyone we have picked up are confirmed terrorists. Only 10 to 14% are. Incarceration and torture without trial is a direct violation of the constitution and international law and has been forbidden as acceptable since George Washington. We cannot allow barbarism in our name continue. It's the mark of sick and completely morally bankrupt sadistic people. It's another reason I cannot vote for anyone who won't attempt to do something about it or hold those accountable of these acts or policies. Remember, if we torture, then the possibility that capture of our military personnel may subject them to torture on the basis of our example.
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jmondine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-25-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. This is a very good point
And we need to speak out on this over and over again until such practices in our name our ended completely.

In my mind, I'm always looking for ways to turn the right's propaganda against itself. If the republics want to compare themselves to fictional characters like the lead in "24", we point out that Jack Bauer never beats up innocent people. By incarcerating, torturing and killing innocents, they come closer to resembling Joaquin Phoenix's Roman emperor from Gladiator, a sick, weak, self-absorbed little villain.

I am attempting to steal a page from Rove's playbook here. The Repub's have, in the past, successfully branded themselves as the party of unbridled manliness, of machismo, from Ronald Reagan parading about in cowboy outfits to Bushie calling the endless redeployment of our troops a "surge". The more we can recast them as the insecure, weak little crybabies they truly are, the more one of their greatest P.R. strengths will crumble.
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