So you have a pay freeze for two years but still have a job with benefits.

[Safetykitten]

Really?

Do you want to go there? My drawings that are submitted for review by my large metropolitan city review staff still takes three weeks. Of course no layoffs there and nothing is being built, but still three weeks for a fucking landscape plan. You think you can get a phone call to them? No again. Still voicemail. The city is screaming about cutbacks but still no one gets laid off. But the boogeyman they throw out is "well there goes the police and fire"....which is used to scare people.

Federal? You federal workers really take the cake, as I have NEVER hear of a person fired, laid off, or anything to that effect, and I deal with those agencies in my profession a great deal. But go ahead, get pissy about your pay freeze, while people like me, with two college degrees works at 1/3rd pay, no benefits, and about 10 hours a week. Go ahead, endear yourselves to the rest of us dying out here.

[phasma ex machina]

1. If government took a trillion back from the banksters federal workers could get a pay increase. nt

[elleng]

2. 2/3 of my office personnel were laid off 10 years ago. Sorry.

[joeybee12]

3. Why don't you direct your anger to your employer who pays you so shitty? nt

[Safetykitten]

4. From planet earth to you....there is massive wage deflation/no job thingy going on...

but since people ensconced in a Federal job don't get it, well...

[joeybee12]

22. Hey sweetie, I don't have a federal job, my point is that you're

getting angry at the wrong people...get angry at the people who are keeping wages down DELIBERATELY!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[bergie321]

69. there is massive wage deflation/no job thingy going on...

So your solution is to bring down federal workers to your level because you are too afraid to fight for more?

There are no winners in a race to the bottom.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

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[Safetykitten]

162. Well invite me to your recession/depression proof world.

[Mimosa]

242. ^ Unbelievably mean and unfair ^

One day some will get theirs if their is any justice.

[Brickbat]

236. ROFLMAO. Try a union. Try fighting a little bit. Or just shut up and take it.

In any case, quit blaming someone else and look in the damn mirror.

[earth mom]

251. Support Unions if you want better pay. Otherwise stop being so jealous & petty about the money

Union Workers make.

They are entitled to EVERY DAMN DIME.

BTW-
Do you even realize how this OP makes you look?

Do you even realize that rethugs & freepers are the ones that are jealous and hate well paid Union workers?

[Hannah Bell]

269. because deflating gov't workers' wages & laying them off will make everyone else's

situation better, lol.

wrong-o. it will make it worse.

[Safetykitten]

271. They are in this with us, right? Or is it all about them and getting their piece?

[Hannah Bell]

293. no, it's about the fact that laying off government workers & deflating their wages

will decrease demand, not increase it; will hurt families, not help them; will add to the deficit, not reduce it; will put downward pressure on private sector wages, not upward pressure; and won't do a damned thing to increase hiring in the private sector.

in short, it will exacerbate deflation, not fix it.

pfft to your attempt to scapegoat government workers.

[Safetykitten]

302. The downward pressure on private sector wages is in the 7th inning.

You think that by them diggging in is going to help anyone get more? You must be joking.

[Hannah Bell]

you didn't address the point. let me put it out there again: cutting people's wages &

firing them doesn't help a deflating economy, it makes it worse.

you can speak to that point, or you can keep on spinning shit.

[Safetykitten]

310. You talk as if there has been none and the Federal employees are the end all.

Of course deflating wages and firing people is bad and making things worse. The federal employees are going to push us into a worse situation? How can it possibly get worse?

[laughingliberal]

353. "How can it possibly get worse?"

A question I've learned it's best not to ask. The answer is generally forthcoming.

[Hannah Bell]

390. lol.

[JVS]

362. Lower wages isn't how to fight wage deflation.

It contributes to it.

[notadmblnd]

5. You're buying into exactly the sentiment they are trying to create

You shouldn't be bitching about them getting more. You should be bitching at and demanding more from your employer! This is exactly the mentality and attitude that TPTB want. Congratulations, you're doing just what they were counting on people to do.

[Safetykitten]

9. Uh, my employer is trying to keep his office open, but then again not being in the...

east coast/government central/axis of federal work paradise, things are different out here.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

17. Alright...East Coast bashing! (n/t)

[superduperfarleft]

20. So then quit whining and move.

Union workers took the initiative to protect their interests, why do you think you should get the same benefits (the ones you don't already get, that is) just for sitting on your ass and bitching about it on a messageboard?

[notadmblnd]

23. Well I'm sure your employer doesn't have you shackled to your cubicle?

with your years of expertise, I'm sure you can snag one of them federal jobs for yourself (they're hiring all the time)?

You sound like you're one of those "If it's good enough for me, it should be good enough for everybody else," people. So- go get better. Then you'll have no reason to let resentment build.

[Safetykitten]

31. Federal jobs in my field are far and never hired for.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

43. A-effing-MEN! nt

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

234. Really? See the link in post 94 (of course, you will have to tread the same earth as

the great unwashed and unworthy rug) and get back to us.

[MadHound]

62. "east coast/government central/axis of federal work paradise"

Throughout this thread you are repeating RW memes and slurs. Why?

[GentryDixon]

139. I believe you need an attitude adjustment.

You are wrong at the wrong people.

[Mimosa]

243. How does anybody 'demand more' without getting fired?

Anybody who could post such a lame thing obviously doesn't work in the real world. The USA where 500 people apply for one crummy job.

[blondeatlast]

6. DU gets more wtf-ish every day, I swear. You realize the Federal pay scale is

considered a model for private wages, of course.

Of course you did; you're a smart one, right?

[Safetykitten]

14. Really, then why is everyone trying to get a "cake" federal job?

[blondeatlast]

26. Because federal wages are fair, generally. Your problem is with your Scrooge boss,

but you've let the Heritage Foundation Press Room decide this issue for you.

[TransitJohn]

117. I love the solidarity with labor expressed in the OP.

[Safetykitten]

126. When they show up at a firm closing down and help, call me.

[MadHound]

7. So rather than trying to advance yourself, your position and your pay,

You would rather drag everybody down to your shitty level.

How fucked is that idea, really?

[Safetykitten]

10. Wow, you just don't get it.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. perhaps you haven't explained yourself well?

'cause that is exactly what I got out of your OP too.

[Sherman A1]

19. Yes,

in fact he does GET IT and so do I. He said it right.

[MadHound]

32. No, you don't get it

You go on a rant about how bad Federal workers are, blasting out the usual RW memes that Fed workers don't get fired, etc., rave about how shitty your job is, and thus Feds should get a taste of what you are stuck with.

But rather than spewing RW memes and trying to tear down Fed workers down to your level, perhaps you should put your energy into raising yourself and your profession up. You know, things like forming a union, taking legal actions, etc. Or perhaps you should simply look for a better job

But whatever you do, stop whining, stop trying to drag everybody down to your sorry level. You're like a lot of idiots I meet who want teachers to get paid the same scale as convenience store clerks because, well, $30,000 is more than they make. Start comparing apples to apples, jobs to the same sort of jobs, and you will find that the private sector pays more than the public sector, especially when you get to the top of pay scale, CEO's etc. I've yet to see a head of any government getting paid tens of millions of dollars.

But rather than going after those CEO's, whose pay scale has gone up at a skyrocketing rate over the past thirty years(I think a typical CEO's pay is now 438 times the company's lowest paid worker), you want to go after Federal workers? Wow, talk about working against your own self interest.

Sorry, not buying it.

[Safetykitten]

35. Hmm...a union for architects and landscape architects. How quaint.

[MadHound]

45. Why not?

You have unions and similar organizations for other such professions.

But apparently you would rather whine about Fed pay scale than try to do anything to raise your own standing.

Again, working against your own self interests. How stupid.

Oh, wait, there are unions for architects. Perhaps you should join

<http://eaaunion.net />
<http://www.aia.org/practicing/groups/international/uia/... >
<http://www.architectsunion.com />

[Safetykitten]

51. What is it you do? Are you a landscape architect or architect?

Why would you presume that giving advice in such a way makes it advice to be taken. You are not in the fields so you could not know, except for a google session.

[MadHound]

61. So telling you to better yourself, your workplace conditions via a union is bad advice?

Wow, OK, whatever.

For your information, I'm currently an unemployed teacher. In past professions though, I have organized unions in two social service organizations, which not only improved matters for the workers there, but also the clients.

What is so special about being an architect that you can't organize or join a union? Apparently nothing, since other architects have done that very same thing.

[Safetykitten]

70. So, when you became unemployed, I am so sure you would appreciate

me telling what YOU should do, even though I am not a teacher, AND completely missing the point by saying that your school board should keep getting raises.

That about kinda like it?

I weep for your charges.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Safetykitten]

92. Getting a wage freeze from OUR PRESIDENT is hardly a RW meme.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Safetykitten]

111. Well again, everyone I know that is unemployed would LOVE a federal job.

[MadHound]

119. WELL D'UH!

Geez, everybody that I know who is unemployed, including myself, would love to get any kind of job, including one as a two bit hack underemployed architect. But then again, nobody I know is denigrating those who have jobs, any kind of jobs, in some sick, twisted race to the bottom.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

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[Safetykitten]

189. Threatening people? is that it?

[BoneDaddy]

388. shut up already

you are a boring mess.

[Omaha Steve]

95. They are also called associations, councils, so not to be thought of like us blue collar union bums

Why knock it when your upset with what you want and don't have?


I work in city government. If not police and fire, who is it easy to get rid of? There are civilians that are paid less that support police and fire. Snow plow driver? Sewers? When I flush I want my troubles to go away and not back up on my floor. The person that tracks finances? Libraries are popular targets. Housing, plumbing, electrical inspectors etc?

The city of Omaha has eliminated a couple hundred jobs in the 13 years (this time around) I've been there. Yes. I did leave once before when I got better pay on the outside driving a truck. When I hurt my back and couldn't drive a local truck anymore, I went back to the city.


http://www.drummajorinstitute.org/library/article.php?I...

Countering Anti-Public Worker Sentiment

Delivered by Amy Traub, Director of Research, Drum Major Institute for Public Policy, at the AFL-CIO's annual state legislative issues conference on July 24, 2010.

Introduction: The Right-Wing Attack on Public Unions
I was reading the Wall Street Journal editorial page last March – and by the way, I don’t recommend that, reading the Journal editorial page: it’s enough to spoil your lunch any day of the week – but on this particular day, March 26, I almost fell out of my chair. The headline proclaimed that “America’s most privileged class are public union workers.”

You know the Wall Street Journal: this is the paper for the billionaire bankers who just got multi-million dollar bonuses after taxpayers bailed out their companies. Yet they were pushing the line that sanitation workers are more privileged than the guys running hedge funds. They were arguing that a firefighter’s ability to have a decent retirement was a threat to the country. This, from the folks who just crashed our economy. In New York City where I live, we call that chutzpah.

Of course, the Wall Street Journal wasn’t alone. Pretty soon the same anti-worker, anti-government lines I had been seeing cooked up in the right-wing think tanks, the Heritage Foundation, the Manhattan Institute, the Reason Foundation, were appearing as editorials in mainstream newspapers and on TV programs. And then politicians –- including some elected officials who had previously been friends to labor – started to find there were political advantages to echoing these lines. “Get tough on public employees!” I think they’re making a big mistake, but we’ll get to that later.

There’s a smokescreen going on here: an attempt to exploit city and state fiscal crises to promote an anti-government and anti-worker political agenda that the right wing has been nurturing for a long time. They’re doing an excellent job right now, I have to say, of deflecting attention from the real causes of our economic and fiscal problems to scapegoat public workers. It’s dangerous, and as I will discuss in a moment, it’s part of an effort to foster a race to the bottom in workplace standards and to undermine and delegitimize all unions, whether you’re in the public or private sector. But first I’d like to clear up some of the misinformation.

The big conservative talking point is that public employees earn more than private sector workers. But that’s true only if you completely ignore the context. You can’t compare a professor at the University of Louisville with someone flipping burgers at Wendy’s and argue the professor with a Ph.D. is overpaid because she’s not making minimum wage. (At least not with a straight face) Yet state and city jobs, from teaching to social work to staffing a public hospital, disproportionately demand more educated workers.

FULL story at link.

[Safetykitten]

105. Everything is a RW meme. Repeat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. Professional Associations do help to SET wage scales

abroad... you might not cal it a union... but it does have a function of one.

[Safetykitten]

192. Not in the architectural, landscape architecture fields.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. Yes in those fields

not in the US. Time to get to it, doncha think?

What do you think the word ABROAD means? Next county?

Didn't take Econ 101, and I see didn't take geography 101 or poli sci 101 either.

[Safetykitten]

195. What is it you do? Really, to just offer that so offhandedly?

[nadinbrzezinski]

202. History and practice of labor

and I know that workers need to develop a sense of class... and act as one, or they will be walked over repeatedly. In the US organizing is seen as something alien, almost something furiegners do.

So we are getting to the point, well past the point, where workers stand up. and REFIGHT the battles of the past, or next stop will be survival wages, if we are lucky, and dawn to dusk work days. Yes dear we are going back to the early 19th century.

So get your head off that RW memes you are repeating and read a few books. Start with "There is Power in the Union," recent book

http://www.amazon.com/There-Power-Union-Story-America/d...

You could also read on the Past of the Labor Struggle and realize why May Day IS a very American holiday... google Haymarket affair... and realize we either fight. or I hope you do not mind having kids working at your shop. I mean they are really cheap, and can fit in places adults can't... assuming you do both the design and the installation. Just remember, to work those kids until they are exhausted, and school... snort... they don't need no stinking school. And that is where the RW wants to take this country to... and where you, not having a clue about class solidarity, are helping them. I don't blame you... just the propaganda machine. and the destruction of the working class runs apace. next objective the civil service corp... I mean cronies would be so much better.

[Mimosa]

245. Not in any field of applied arts, design or graphics. n/t

[NashVegas]

215. By Any Chance, Are You a Female In One of the Last Bastions of Near-Complete Sexual Discrimination?

No wonder you're pissed off, but that's not Fed. workers' faults.

[Safetykitten]

220. That I AGREE on, Not female, but gay and it's almost as bad.

Nobody said it was their fault.

[NashVegas]

233. I'm Sure It Is

I can only imagine what you do for the wives' dinners.

I don't want to condescend - I know what you're going through sucks righteously - but a lot of people have been where you are, and even more, outrageous numbers more, will see it in the not-distant future.

Even without the discrimination, you are in the unfortunate position of being a working professional in an era where, now that blue-collar workers have been decimated, you're next on the chopping block.

And I really am sorry.

What I'm sorriest for, of anything, is what a great job our masters have done at turning all the working classes against each other. I wish you better luck and hope you'll be able to turn your anger where it should be, and use it to launch into action.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

120. I think I get it

You wanted to come on here and excoriate federal workers because your lot in life is shittier than theirs is, and you'd like to drag them down to the gutter in which you find yourself. Moreover, when several people pointed out that you're angry with the wrong group, you just whine more, talk about stupidity, and generally feel an apparent intense need to feel sorry for yourself. It's hard to get sympathy in a progressive online community when you start by bashing federal workers and then won't listen to anything that's being said to you.

If you just wanted to commiserate, maybe you should have gone about it in a different way. If you wanted to actually accomplish something that might help you in your life, well, you came up completely empty. I'm fairly certain that bitching about federal workers, not finding a sympathetic ear, then bashing those who were supposed to pity you--as far as I can tell, you got shit out of the deal. Retooling your thinking and/or statements at this juncture might be just the thing for you. Good day.

[Safetykitten]

123. Federal worker #20091 chimes in.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Safetykitten]

140. Good for you, may your job not be outsourced.

[blondeatlast]

18. Seems so. nt

[treestar]

79. Hard to believe this is the same board with so much doom and

gloom about the overall economy.

Blatant hypocrisy. You'd do the same if it were the "rich CEOs" or whoever.

[MadHound]

113. And what, exactly, are you trying to say there?

You're not making much sense.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

204. People switch their moral relativism around here quicker then I change my underwear.

The OP I guess just needs to pull themselves up by their bootstraps! If you're for anything except the most pure liberalism around here you're marked for sniper fire. DU=Green Party Underground nowadays.

[muffin1]

373. What?

Jane/Joe Smith who work at your local government office are the same as 'rich CEOs'?

[eleny]

8. As a state worker years ago I experienced pay freezes

Believe me, I never had the heart to complain about it nor did most of my coworkers.

Even now in retirement, my retirement association has taken a big hit because of the economy. So, no raise last March and I doubt I'll get one for the next few years. Again, I don't feel like complaining.

We're in deep crap these days and I can only hope the world can dig out of it.

P.S. I spent most of my 22 year career in state service worrying about being laid off. Once, I was laid off for several months and luckily was called back. Government employees enjoy no easy slide.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. yes let's race each other to the bottom!

what total bullshit.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

12. Way to buy into the division fomented by Corporate Media. (n/t)

[superduperfarleft]

13. Oh great, more anti-labor BS on DU.

I'd bother to respond, but I'm already predicting that this will be a hit-and-run post, despite the numerous people already pointing out how flawed your premise is.

[panader0]

16. I have no job, no benefits, no insurance

Once in a while I get to lay a few block, or hang some drywall, or pour some concrete. I need a real job. I lost my construction business when the economy went sour, couldn't collect unemployment because I had owned a business, and now have a hard time
having sympathy for well-paid federal workers with great benefits getting a regular raise regardless of the economy.

[Safetykitten]

28. Well lookie here, another skewed reality perception person!

Let's tear him one. You know he's a slacker, no responsibility, bitter, and oh you get the picture.

[wickerwoman]

365. Most federal jobs pay less than comparable jobs in the private sector.

The appeal of federal jobs is that they have job security and benefits.

So in the 90s while everyone else was doing better, they sucked it up with below industry-standard wages. Why begrudge them now?

[wickerwoman]

366. Sorry. Duplicate post. n/t

[Ikonoklast]

21. You sound bitter blaming others for your personal failures.

Guess your 'two college degrees' are in a field that doesn't pay very well.


A smart person would be re-working their own life situation instead wasting time worrying about what other people earn.


Unrec for more right-wing talkin points about 'lazy gubbamint workers'...more of the same from you.

[Safetykitten]

24. Ah, the economy is my personal failure, along with design awards and other shit.

[blondeatlast]

29. Those awards ought to get you a better salary FROM YOUR EMPLOYER.

Your skinflint boss is the problem but apparently you're too scared to ask for more--but not to scared to shit on your federally employed brothers and sisters.

FWIW, I'm in private enterprise myself--but I know what determines my salary.

[Safetykitten]

33. Really, what private enterprise is that?

[blondeatlast]

37. Not a liberal arts one... nt

[Safetykitten]

38. Uh, landscape architecture is a stamped profession. You got a stamp for paper pushing?

[blondeatlast]

41. I don't "paper push." Don't work in government. Have no need to act superior to my DU brothers

and sisters regardless what they do.

And I do have a degree, precious.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

145. oh well fuck me. You didn't say you were in a STAMPED profession

I'm probably not even qualified to talk to the likes of a STAMPED lawn designer such as yourself. No wonder you have a problem with federal workers. They're all commoner garbage. It had to have been distasteful for you to even type about these insignificant.....people.

Watch that pretty blue light, little bug. It'll get you.

[Safetykitten]

148. If you get a degree, the practice under a stamp, then two years later take the test and pass

you get registered.

You can do it too, since it's a no-brainer.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

160. yes, but I don't need to do that

I have a private sector job I'm happy with, remember? And if and when I lose that job, I'll work very hard to find another. I've done it once before, and every minute of it sucked. I'll keep routing packets no matter what government workers do or don't do, make or don't make. It's what I do. Wailing to the known world is apparently what you do. I think I win the productivity race by default.

[Safetykitten]

164. Well, it seems you have no issues. Carry on.

Just remember, there is no endless supply of jobs, even for talented people like yourself.

The wailing is coming from another direction.

[Lucky 13]

284. ROFL!!

I got your stamp right here, bro!

[leftstreet]

30. But the economy's doing GREAT for Wall Street & military contractors!

Why turn on fellow working class people?

[Ikonoklast]

40. Then do nothing.

But complaining about what others earn changes your personal situation in what positive way, exactly?


The economy isn't just shitty for you, Skippy.

Years ago, when my earning power was declining in a wage-stagnant segment of the economy, I didn't just sit there and bitch about what others were earning, I changed careers to one that had greater earning potential.


But then again, I didn't stare at my 'two college degrees' and magically hope that they'd turn into Treasury Bearer Bonds.


Oh, and hock the 'design awards'. See if you can get a few bucks for them.

Accolades never paid the bills, I found that out years ago.

Just a free tip.

[blondeatlast]

42. I (heart) Ikonoklast.

Even though you've righteously lit into me on occasion.

[Ikonoklast]

50. I found myself agreeing with (gasp) Madhound in this thread!

Things are a little surreal...I need a stiff drink.

[MadHound]

65. Oh man, you're agreeing with me?

The apocalypse is nigh

What are you drinking? I've got scotch, tequila and some brandy in the cabinet

[Ikonoklast]

163. Great Lakes Brewing Co. Christmas Ale.

We wait all year for this to come out here in NE OH, and it's well worth the wait.

The stuff literally flies off the shelf.

It's freakin' awesome.

[TheKentuckian]

258. We tried it a couple weeks ago. Good stuff but doesn't translate to throwing back a few too well

[blondeatlast]

235. Me too; yet another reason to love DU.

And just when I think I can't stand it anymore!

[Safetykitten]

44. Well are'nt you the sage of wisdom?

AGAIN....helping a collge friend keep his firm open. We all are getting hit.

Federal workers? OH NOES A WAGE FREEZE!

[blondeatlast]

47. And yet publicly bitching about the wages he pays on a very busy message board.

You're amusing, to say the least.

_____

Your post, pre-edit:
Well are'nt you the sage of wisdom?
Posted by Safetykitten
AGAIN....helping a collge friend keep his firm open. We all are getting hit.

Federal workers? OH NOES A WAGE FREEZE!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

74. With "friends" like that... (n/t)

[blondeatlast]

222. Hope this boss doesn't get wind of this thread.

Really, I wouldn't want Precious to have to joing the ranks of the "non-stamped."

[Safetykitten]

226. Did you fail the test? You sound very bitter.

[blondeatlast]

230. What test? And as for bitter...

I LOVE my job and my employer, btw.

[girl gone mad]

99. And you think a deflationary spiral in wages is going to help your firm..

how, exactly?

Will you be able to command more for your services when a significant portion of the population is earning less money?

Will you get more business from people who have taken pay cuts and suffered the concomitant reduction in living standards?

Will you face less competition for work as the amount of dollars available in the real economy declines?

Please, let us know which new-fangled economic theory you've subscribed to that tells you government wage deflation is good for small business.

[Safetykitten]

116. Of course it is not helping. Where did I say that?

So what government wage "trickle down" are you a proponent of?

[MadHound]

122. When you start lowering the wages of workers, including federal workers,

That starts a deflationary spiral. Econ 101, or didn't you take that while you were getting two degrees and some award.

[Safetykitten]

124. So the government workers matter but the millions with cut wages do not? Nice thinking Greenspan.

[MadHound]

131. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Or are you really that ignorant? I would expect more sense of how things work from somebody with two college degrees.

[Safetykitten]

135. And your background? Let us know.

[MadHound]

141. LOL!

Three degrees in five years undergrad, 4.0 GPA, great liberal arts school, oh, not to mention going to the school of hard knocks for a good part of my life as well. And I have multiple awards, and took Econ 101.

Din din is calling, bye

[Safetykitten]

144. But what are you? Hard knocks aside.

[girl gone mad]

133. When workers earn more, they spend more.

That's the exact opposite of "trickle down", Einstein.

[Safetykitten]

136. Just federal workers. Just them. They will make the difference in the economy.

Do I have that correct?

[girl gone mad]

191. where did I say that?

The way to increase private sector earnings is not by demanding public sector wage cuts. The government creates money, and when it employs people, that money gets pumped into the real economy. That's the way our system works.

In fact, as long as the private sector continues to net save (in large part by slashing wages and outsourcing jobs), the government must run a deficit in excess of the private sector surplus or our economy will collapse.

[Safetykitten]

197. The horse is out of the barn...

"The way to increase private sector earnings is not by demanding public sector wage cuts. The government creates money, and when it employs people, that money gets pumped into the real economy. That's the way our system works."

So what now?

Make sure the federal employees are the last of the entire nation to get a wage cut?

[blondeatlast]

208. So, Ms. Stamped, Two Degreed Professional--it's a-r-e-n-'-t. nt

[ecstatic]

85. I agree with your post, but don't most posts here do the same

thing? And everyone jumps in the thread to rec?

[etherealtruth]

27. "We" haven't received pay raises in two years

... this has coincided with increased employee contributions to our health/dental insurance. They have also ceased all contribution to our retirement accounts. it really sucks and I am sorry that other workers have to go through this.

Believe me, I am very grateful to have a job ... have health insurance. I realize I am more fortunate than others .... but, sheesh this is hard .... especially for us folk in the beginning stages of (new) careers.

[Codeine]

34. You know, I haven't had a raise in four years

and I've seen my percentage paid to my health and dental plans increase while also losing half my vacation pay. I'm still not gonna get pissy with federal workers because that's not where the problem lies. In my case the economy is killing my company and we're doing what we can to ensure we all have jobs.

[Safetykitten]

36. Pissy? look at the posts that follow the IDEA that they should suck it up like the rest of us.

[Codeine]

49. you get paid to draw shit. I have no sympathy. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Gee, a person with two degrees might have been smart enough to get a job with the Feds.

[superduperfarleft]

52. Or at least not be so shocked that an anti-labor talking point would be received so poorly on DU.

[Codeine]

54. Actually, the good guys are out in force tonight.

Usually the union-bashers have their allies and corporate lickspittles all lined up for these threads.

[superduperfarleft]

56. Well, it probably would've helped if

the OP wasn't acting like such a b<post interrupted>

[Safetykitten]

59. Now it's morphed into anti labor. Good leap.

[Ikonoklast]

57. Worked for George W. Bush.

On second thought, that was a lousy example, I want to take it back.

[Individualist]

53. Unrec.

[Safetykitten]

55. Devolved into denigrating a profession for what?

Because we can't have Federal workers hurt in any way. Millions out of work, entire creative professions losing talent, jobs, firms, but Jesus! Don't let the Federal workers get nicked!

[superduperfarleft]

58. Yes that's exactly what happened and why it happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

194. Can I borrow that?

I will add this...

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Safetykitten]

63. You have obviously not been in a position where you need to help someone.

But you are familiar with shallow situations.

[Codeine]

66. How exactly does pissing on unionized federal employees

help your friend? Or you? Or your situation? Or that of workers in general?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

67. Are your designs as shitty as your attitude?

Perhaps that's the problem.

Too bad the administration isn't pushing green collar jobs; perhaps you could have landed a "cake" one.

[MadHound]

75. But wait, hundreds of thousands of government workers have been laid off

<http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/01/bunning-transportat... />
<http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id... >
<http://blogs.northcountrypublicradio.org/inbox/2010/06/... />
<http://www.wgal.com/r/13666348/detail.html >

Happy now? Does that warm the cockles of your cold little heart? Feel better now that government workers have been feeling your pain and more.

Ptthew, I spit out your RW bile.

[Safetykitten]

64. Also, notice the mostly silence of the Federal workers here, unless you all are...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

149. everyone here is a federal worker. I've suspected it for a long time now

Your accusation has finally brought my suspicions to light. I think they're all federal workers, and they're after us. Oh, they'll deny it, no doubt. But we know the truth, you and I do. And remember, if they call you paranoid, that's just a ruse to hide the fact that they're FEDERAL WORKERS, living off of the rest of us.

[Safetykitten]

161. There is probably more than you think.

[MissB]

190. *snort*

Well, I'm a state employee, so there goes that theory. you've been awesome on this thread. Well done.

[dana_b]

201. let's get 'em!

[nadinbrzezinski]

188. That sounds like something else

quite ugly by the way.

I really need to talk to the rabi about my guv'mint job. BUSTED!

Can anybody make that piza ASAP!!!!!

[NNN0LHI]

68. You think those people making less will have less or more money to spend on services you provide?

If they have less money to spend on the goods or services you provide how do you think that will effect your future income? Two college degrees, eh?

Don

[Safetykitten]

72. Well, I can open a Federal employees residential design division that would

dovetaill nicely into the mega-wealthy one.

People that have money and people that have money.

But what is landscape architecture and architecture worth? Nothing according to people here.

[haele]

254. I think you're mistaking DU in general for society in general. The arts are less valued nowdays -

And part of your problem comes from the rise of technology that allows the un-educated to believe that being a master of the "Golf Course Builder" or "Amusment Park Builder" games and having a nifty basic drafting app on their I-Pad, they can be an architect or designer.
I mean, hey, I used to watch "Project Runway" - I can be a world famous fashion desinger...

It's not the work force, it's the buyer - it's the push for "the basics" - NCLB, "Race to the Top", the Chicago and/or Austrian schools of economics, Randriods - those who live in a world where surface success trumps efforts to make improvements or artistic vision.

I'd be pissed, too - but instead of being pissed at the stiff trying to keep aloat themselves, I'm pissed at those who encourage the shiny, happy thinking that is destroying economic wellbeing of the majority for towering success for the few elite. I'd also be pissed at those who created both the residential and commercial real estate bubbles, which conspired to kill your immediate customer base.

The fewer people who can afford to hire a landscape architect, the fewer customers you are going to have. And it doesn't mean spit whether or not there are federal employees making a decent wage.

Haele

[Safetykitten]

266. Unless you live in a private world, your work, YES yours was supplied

by those very shiny happy thinking residential/commercial projects, that YES, made you have things to review.

Don't try to divorce yourself from the situation as it is, as you were a compliant player, as was I.

Also looking at past devotees of the boom market, you know who you are.

And don't try that "lump them all in" number as the dispassionate reviewer, as you apparently got in and out while the getting was good. And your legacy at these agencies? Reviewers who will review and comment on things they don't even understand, like the newest techniques in water harvesting, streetscape planting, smarter design and other items, desperately trying to jamb them into the little boxes that you need to check.

It's your casual breeziness of a sick reviewing system that is galling, yet you offer your advice.

Oh, and it's about people sharing the pain of this economy. that's it.

[haele]

317. I have lived in both worlds, and I'm like most people, trying to keep a roof over my head

and required medicine for those in my family who need it. I and my household are "this close" to bankruptcy due to medical problems, but do I complain about my current private-corporation employer, who feeds off my hard work and profits off my experience in engineering, installations, and environmental sciences, and my customer, the Federal Government, who profits off my years of experience and knack for business practices? I understand that my customer is the Federal Government, and that my customer, for all it's faults, has not only the largest "customer base" in terms of the range of services it provides, is the largest employer of the middle class in the US, and it's not their fault that they are stuck being the last, largest employer of the middle class.

I have had a wide choice of careers and organizational associations spanning the Arts (both music and Graphic Arts), Education, Military, and Engineering, over the past 40 years, and chose the ones that served the purposes of keeping my family in some security and didn't expand additional resources that we couldn't afford to spend. I even made a go at running my own business pre-internet explosion, but couldn't stay afloat for more than a year and a half; too "artsy" for the area I was located in and I couldn't afford the advertising and business building costs to what I needed to charge to bring the most new customers in.

That you were able, through luck or opportunity, to get two degrees in an artistic field and make a career out of it, is admirable in itself.
But your customer base depends on what? Business parks? Community Landscaping? Campus architecture? McMansions, Recreational parkland?
A good chunk of Architecture historically relies on a governing organizational patronage, which in this country, means a tax base that can finance more than Communist salt-box residential cubes and simple CAD-program plantings.

Honestly, I don't care who is getting their wages cut or frozen. I just care that the lifeblood of this country's economy is being abused by predatory financing, indifferent corporations, socially engineered anti-intellectual resentment, and an addiction to elitist, shallow posturings of wealth through all the classes. And I hate the ease in which the elitist parasites in our society profit off pitting educated against lesser educated, working against professional, lower class against middle class, using jealousy and resentment to fuel the war.

Using your rant, why should there be a safety net of decent pay and benefits for anyone who works for another, just because most private employers aren't willing to provide that for their employees? Why should any worker follow regulated risk-reduction, safety or cost savings practices if it's going to inconvenience someone in a rush to get their project completed?
Why aren't there enough customers out there looking to pay good money for quality work?

Ultimately, Economy 101 comes into play, and if people aren't making enough money that they can spend on quality work that is basically a luxury rather than a necessity, they aren't going to spend the $75K + for the services of an architect to xeroscape, irrigate, and furnish the front half-acre of their "ranch estate" tract property so it complements the surrounding environment and increases the value of the property. And that goes directly to your Federal or State Govm't supervisor who's pulling down $150K a year, unlike his/her private business/corporate counterpart who is pulling down around $200 a year.

We all deserve a living wage, and fair compensation for our required experience, training, and work. I wouldn't even say you are making too much, and deserve a wage freeze - because looking up your average national starting salary range as an Architect on several different employment sites (and not the Los Angeles range, which is reported to be about 20% higher), it's more than my current FSE1 corporate employee position with top-notch benefits range (starting $40K), right about where a Federal Engineer level 2 (GS09 equiv., master's degree, 5 years experience)in San Diego (starting $42K) is.
If I go strictly by the published trade rates, you probably make more than most of the Federal Engineers in my customer's department do. If you go strictly by the published average rates, you'd think the majority of Federal employees make $75K or above, even though there are twice the number of GS05/07's than there are GS09's, and twice again the number of GS09's than there are paygrades above that.
When Bill Gates walks into a bar, the average income of everyone in that bar goes over a million dollars, even if everyone else there makes minimum wage.

I'm sorry if you're not making as much as the industry reports you should be making. LA is an expensive place to do business, and all wages are inflated to match that expense.

But letting the green-eyed monster run your life because someone who might not be as educated and as talented as you is making as much or just a bit more is ridiculous at best. It's not as if they're gaming the system to float wealth towards them, steal your house, invest in hostile corporate take-overs, and send jobs overseas while they buy their upteenth seasonal compound to create their own fantasy ranch.


The simple fact is, for your business to thrive, we as a country need well-paying, "middle class" jobs. And sadly, the vaunted Private Sector - even unionized - is too busy hunkering down, "making sacrifices" (to all but shareholders and corporate offices, for the most part) and "cutting fat" to employ any number of people on a permanent basis at wages enough above poverty to make enough of an economic machine that your business will thrive.

And unfortunately, your reviled public sector is pretty close to being the only thing holding the economy up.


Haele

[Old Troop]

71. I work for the federal government and am ok with this although

I wish the administration would think about raises for GS9 and below.

[eleny]

73. New York’s Mayor Bloomberg announced 10,000 job cuts...

He announced this just last week.

"City slashes budget, cuts thousands of jobs"

"Every agency will to see cuts, except there will be no layoffs for the NYPD or FDNY."

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/politics...

Now you have an example of government workers being laid off. The pain is everywhere. From here on out you know it, too.

[Safetykitten]

77. Federal?

[eleny]

238. Splitting hairs has eroded your credibility.You have no argument because you have no credibility.

[haele]

240. Federal has furloughs all the time. My current customer lost three federal positions last year,

and the Navy Chief Engineer's command of around 4K federal employees and military that employs my customer got rid of about 20 "high paid engineer's" jobs (around $90K a year average) by "early retirement" and furloughed another 75 or so engineers and 42 support employees (averaging around $45K) by consolidating departments and projects over a two year cost-cutting plan. Oh, and they got rid of another 200 contractor positions.
There's about a 130 federal jobs and 200 highly paid civilian engineer (BTW - who's pay averages higher than the federal engineers, at around $102K an hour).

Federal employees lose jobs and are fired all the time, through early attrition - after 20 years, the feds start pushing you to retire, through consolidation or abandoned projects, or for cause.
They are only afforded the same protections that unions afforded, which is that they must be fired either for cause or because the job goes away.

Actually, it sounds similar to the job you are concerned about; the only real difference is your customer base.
Your customer base is whomever wants to or can afford to hire you. The Government's customer base is their citizenry and their requirements.

Haele

[Name removed]

241. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

76. Rec'd

The outrage around here is hilarious. Imagine if they'd gotten a raise after the social security recipients didn't. These are the same government employees raked over the coals for stomping on our rights. Hilarious. Just proof that the point is to be outraged, no matter what.

[Safetykitten]

81. Correct. Outrage is the rage. But instead of multiple "Federal" posts screeming

not one, except this one asks the what is now known as the unaskable, "you think we should be in the same boat as the rest of the nation in taking the hits in this economy?"

[Safetykitten]

82. Design flaw

[superduperfarleft]

87. You are truly unbelievable. n/t

[scarletwoman]

78. So, basically what you're saying is that your life sucks, but you would feel better

if more people's lives sucked too.

[Safetykitten]

83. No, I think people who who have government healthcare should give a fucking rest, as

the rest of us underemployed, no healtcare people struggle with survival.

[scarletwoman]

91. So, how is it THEIR fault that you don't have healthcare?

You're pointing your ire in the wrong direction.

It ain't your fellow workers who are screwing you, it's the Owner Class.

How is a wage freeze for Federal workers going to improve your lot? It won't, all it means is another cement block tied to the feet of the Working Class, it won't benefit you one damn bit.

[Safetykitten]

109. What? They should take the hit and be glad they have it.

Why I do not have it is another clusterfuck of our party and not the fault of federal workers.

[Codeine]

115. If they can block the hit then it is in their interest that they do, and it harms nobody.

Especially you.

[scarletwoman]

125. Why should they "take the hit"? Why should ANY worker take a hit?

Why not stand in solidarity with the Working Class instead of cheering for more of them to get screwed by the Owner Class?

Standing in solidarity with ALL workers will do a lot more for ALL of us than being resentful about those who haven't yet been as screwed as you have been.

Again I ask, by what logic does letting another segment of workers get screwed by the Owners improve your own situation?

[Safetykitten]

127. Head up Mao, but the majoity have already been screwn. Are some workers more equal than others?

[Codeine]

132. What does screwing them help?

That's the point people would like you to make. You are in a bad situation and you seem offended that someone else might NOT be in a bad situation. Well guess what -- that's why they formed a fucking union in the first place, so that they can stand up against shit you meekly accept.

Hurting them will not help you! How many times do you need to be told this?

And seriously -- Mao? You're calling someone "Mao" for supporting basic worker's rights? What in the fuck are you doing here?

[Safetykitten]

138. And you do not support the private sector?

See how fucking stupid that sounds?

[Codeine]

142. What?

I can't even begin to pry a meaning from that statement.

Try again, with clarity.

[Safetykitten]

147. You say, and correct me if I am wrong, any cut in Federal workers pay is a detriment to

our already sorry and horrific ecomomy.

yes?

[Codeine]

152. Of course it is.

Cutting ANY workingman's pay is a detriment to our economy. Workers with money spend that money.

You'd be spending more if you went out and got a real job, right?

[Safetykitten]

166. So you got charts for that? The percentage of the economy that depends on Federal wages?

It is that big. It is big, because it is ALOT of money, but a pay freeze? Really?

[Codeine]

174. If the death of a thousand cuts is what you're looking for

then more power to you, ma'am. I think I'll continue to argue against weakening workers to pay for the errors of the monied classes.

[Safetykitten]

181. Go get em' let me know when you get to the workers paradise

[scarletwoman]

137. So you'd prefer that NO ONE fights back. You'd prefer that everyone just meekly accept being screwed

Go meekly to the slaughter then. The Owners thank you for your cooperation in weakening and dividing the Working Class.

[Safetykitten]

143. Yes, me and my design professional pals will join up with the federal workers rights march...

that should be a good one.

[Codeine]

146. Why not?

Honestly -- why the heck not?

[scarletwoman]

153. Oooh, "professionals" -- yes, obviously you're far too elite to relate to the Working Class.

Well, that's okay, we'll struggle on for things like single payer health care and an end to the corporatocracy without you.

I'm sure the Owner Class will reward you well for your loyalty.

[Codeine]

156. I wish she was the only "professional" on DU to have her attitude.

Unfortunately hers is a common view.

[blondeatlast]

209. It's YOUR OWN fault if you consider yourself underemployed.

That whole "helping a friend" thing.

[malaise]

80. I suggest you have a good look at wage freezes

and MOUs (Memoranda of understanding) with unions in other countries and see just how workers are fugged by said governments over time. We are in MOU 3. Our wages were frozen in 2004 - increases were reduced then stopped and we were told we could either accept the terms or face layoffs.
Now workers are winning case after case on court because even where the government agreed to deliver back pay from postponed increases, they usually renege on the contract.

[Starry Messenger]

86. (facepalm)

What the hell happened to this generation? Here is labor 101: if a large sector of employees meekly allows their pay to be frozen and slashed, then the rest of the assholes who run businesses in this country go "Oh, ok, they took that like fucking sheep. Let's freeze and slash OURS too!" If the federal employees raise a stink, then there is a chance that our owners will notice we are alive down here and perhaps a brain cell will fire that we are going to make this difficult for them. Jesus. In Europe they are out in the streets over shit like this.

[Safetykitten]

88. I will raise you a facepalm.

So what do you think has been happening the last three fucking years? Offices get smaller, people get laid off, the wage concessions, then more layoffs, then reduced hours, then more wage concessions.

Oh, I get it, the Federal workers just came to the party!

Fill them in on the outside world.

Oh and on edit....Hell will freeze over before the Federal government workers act as a firewall for the rest of us.

[Starry Messenger]

93. And why do you think that is, honey?

You tell us, since you're so special.

[Safetykitten]

97. No you tell me Greenspan.

[Starry Messenger]

104. Maybe because workers like yourself are undercutting wages

by producing work for less than market value? I'm sure your winning personality is a sparkling asset to any workplace. I can't imagine why your services aren't more in demand.

[Safetykitten]

118. There are not many that have a job. Besides we get a call about once a month

for a graduate to work for free. They offer their services for free.

[Hello_Kitty]

224. So you should be offering your services free too. Who do you think you are anyway?

Thinking you should get paid when patriotic grad students volunteer their labor.

[Safetykitten]

229. It is so sad really. Like I said we get them about once a month

sometimes in letter form, asking if they could work for free, so they could get a start in the field. I tell them not to do that, offer for free, but they are desperate to get some experience in the field they love and the degree they worked so hard for.

There will be a lost generation of LA's and architects as no one can find work and they are going to do something else. Even something else is hard to get, another friend finally got a job at the Cheesecake Factory and he's very happy he got that.

But explaining this is not usefull here, Federal workers must be taken care of. They are the linchpin of our society that cannot take any more, as if us in the private sector had any choice.

[Mimosa]

255. Do you know anything at all about private sector employment?

It's tough out there. And anybody who dares complain is easily fired and replaced these days. Private sector non-union professionals do not have the job protection enjoyed by civil service employees.

A kind and informed person should have some empathy.

[mr1956]

259. Federal employee checking in

Guess what, federal offices have gotten smaller over the same period of time. People get fired (yes that happens!) or move on and their positions are downgraded though the workload is not.

We may not get reduced hours but work longer hours to get the work done. If I'm not wrong, that constitutes a cut in my hourly wage.

When I heard about the wage freeze I thought about the private sector people I know who have been in the situation you are talking about and did not get angry. The economy is slowly improving and hopefully everyone's situation will improve.

Federal worker raises have traditionally been tied to Congress voting for their own pay raise and we get the crumbs left over from the cake.

I can handle the freeze, but I cannot handle the attitude that demonizes government workers. Most of us are not highly paid in the first place and we pay for our healthcare just like private sector workers.

Please educate yourself before attacking us.

[Skittles]

89. yup

I can't believe they are just now joining the real world

[rug]

90. Here, stop bellyaching.

http://jobsearch.usajobs.gov/search.aspx?q=landscape+ar...

[Safetykitten]

94. Very nasty response.

[rug]

98. Yes, 25 pages of federal jobs for landscape architects is downright vicious.

[Safetykitten]

102. As much as you want to make this about me, it's about Federal workers that can't

take a hit like the rest of us.

[rug]

107. I see. You don't mind being punched in the gut as long as they punch the guy next to you.

[Codeine]

112. You're pissed because some people aren't eager to join the race for the bottom.

I'm glad to see that some people will stand up for their rights and use the strength of their union to be heard.

When they stay strong it buoys everyone. If they quietly accept it like you have it undercuts everyone.

[bergie321]

114. Why?

Why do you insist on tearing your fellow Americans down because you are too much of a coward to fight to better yourself?

[blondeatlast]

212. You keep whining about how you are underpaid--rug's offering some real help.

I dare you to take him up on it.

[Safetykitten]

219. What does Rug do? Just so I know before I take him up on his offer.

[blondeatlast]

221. What a snoblike thing to ask--he offered you help in the form of a mouse click.

You are a real piece of (specialized, precious, wonderfulness) work.

[Safetykitten]

223. I have a job. Try reading the posts.

[blondeatlast]

225. But you are clearly unhappy--that's not the FDA inspector's fault. It's your boss's and yours.

It's just that you don't want to do anything about your unhappiness--in fact, you seem to be reveling in it..

[Safetykitten]

231. Sorry doc. Not the case.

[Codeine]

100. Very nasty OP. nt

[Safetykitten]

103. Really, how many poor maligned federal worker posts can we have?

[WillowTree]

96. My Dear, you really have only three choices until the overall economy improves,

You can either

1) Go to an area where your services are more in demand

or

2) Find a different pursuit to follow which is more in demand where you are and pays better, at least until the economy improves

[Safetykitten]

101. My dearest, where would that be?

[WillowTree]

106. No wonder you're underemployed.

You apparently expect others to do your research for you, to find your answers for you. Not a real big market for those attributes, even in a good economic cycle.

[blondeatlast]

214. +1,999! nt

[rug]

108. See #94.

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Since I do get paid shitty, everybody else should

okie dokie, we call that class solidarity... NOT

[Safetykitten]

155. Update fot those not paying attention...

People like me should fight for more money. Walmart workers should go up and DEMAND more money.

Architecture sucks and people that do it suck and get out of the profession, or better yet move.

Landscape Architecture....see above.

Federal workers are the canary in the coal mine. They should never take a pay cut, even though the ground deeper in the mine is carpets of dead canaries.

Federal workers/pay cut=RW meme.

Federal worker pay cuts will destroy the economy. (Really, don't think about it, Maryland alone will sink into bankruptcy if one penny is withheld.

Oh, and we need the votes.

Oh, and anothee thing. Our President wants it. Triangulate that.

[Withywindle]

151. Really? THIS is the hill where you want to plant your flag?

(For the record: laid-off former salaried worker in dead industry, now working two part-time jobs, no bennies, haven't seen a doctor in 3 years and won't be able to any time in the foreseeable future.)


I understand your resentment. I share it, on some gut emotional shameful level. But goddamn it, these are NOT the right people to blame.

[Safetykitten]

157. Blame? WTF? Just take the paycuts and be gratefull! Too much to ask though.

Oh and on edit. Yes, I like taking a stand and sticking with it. And you of all people should be batting away too. It's not about blame. It's about a protected group not getting it, or in this case not getting it on many levels.

Why is is so hard that we all have made sacrifices. They CAN'T?

[Codeine]

158. You still haven't explained WHY they should, or whom that would benefit.

Who would gain from that? How would it help ANYONE?

[scarletwoman]

159. Please sir, may I have another?

Gruel rations are going to be cut for the galley slaves, but they should be damn grateful that they get any gruel at all.

[Safetykitten]

178. Galley slave GS9 gets more.

[scarletwoman]

196. And your answer is to make sure galley slave GS9 gets less instead of trying to help us all

throw off the chains.

Or maybe you think that if galley slave GS9 gets less, YOU'LL get more?

There were two kinds of slaves, the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negroes — they lived in the house with master, they dressed pretty good, they ate good because they ate his food — what he left. They lived in the attic or the basement, but still they lived near the master; and they loved the master more than the master loved himself. They would give their life to save the master's house — quicker than the master would. If the master said, "We got a good house here," the house Negro would say, "Yeah, we got a good house here." Whenever the master said "we," he said "we." That's how you can tell a house Negro.

If the master's house caught on fire, the house Negro would fight harder to put the blaze out than the master would. If the master got sick, the house Negro would say, "What's the matter, boss, we sick?" We sick! He identified himself with his master, more than his master identified with himself. And if you came to the house Negro and said, "Let's run away, let's escape, let's separate," the house Negro would look at you and say, "Man, you crazy. What you mean, separate? Where is there a better house than this? Where can I wear better clothes than this? Where can I eat better food than this?" That was that house Negro.

<snip>

On that same plantation, there was the field Negro. The field Negroes — those were the masses. There were always more Negroes in the field than there were Negroes in the house. The Negro in the field caught hell. He ate leftovers. In the house they ate high up on the hog. The Negro in the field didn't get anything but what was left of the insides of the hog.

The field Negro was beaten from morning to night; he lived in a shack, in a hut; he wore old, castoff clothes. He hated his master. I say he hated his master. He was intelligent. That house Negro loved his master, but that field Negro — remember, they were in the majority, and they hated the master. When the house caught on fire, he didn't try to put it out; that field Negro prayed for a wind, for a breeze. When the master got sick, the field Negro prayed that he'd die. If someone came to the field Negro and said, "Let's separate, let's run," he didn't say, "Where we going?" He'd say, "Any place is better than here."

Malcolm X

If the Master says, "Freeze the pay of the Federal Workers!", who is it that says, "Yes, do it"?

sw

[Safetykitten]

198. OMG.

[Safetykitten]

199. OMG.

[Withywindle]

176. No. NO. They should NOT be grateful.

Any more than any of the rest of us should be grateful for our losses.

The only people who have made no sacrifices are the filthy rich--who are getting ever filthier and richer every day, so much so that they can easily buy the political class (who are by and large richer than you and me and any federal office drone, but still susceptible).

I mean, you bet I envy federal workers their health insurance. Oh hell yeah. But I don't want to take what they have away from them, and I don't want to try to silence them when they object to things being taken away from them. They're working people like you and me. They earn their money by doing useful jobs, not by playing Casino Royale games with other people's theoretical money.

Do you really think that anyone with a yearly living wage and health care should just shut up and be grateful? That really is a race to the bottom, and it's not good for any kind of worker to indulge in that kind of catfighting.

[Safetykitten]

185. "should just shut up and be grateful?" Oddly, yes.

[Withywindle]

200. I disagree.

[Safetykitten]

213. Well good for you.

[Mimosa]

262. Federal employees have great job security and health benefits the rest of us will never have.

And the administration locked the rest of us into the expensive insurance company dictated health insurance system.

I expected backlash. Those with job security and good benefits can easily tell others to fight for what they have. But that's not possible under today's capitalism.

[scarletwoman]

263. Yeah. How dare they! Let's punish them!

[LAGC]

165. So everyone's wages should stagnate and start declining?

How will this help the economy? If Federal workers don't have extra income to spend, what happens to the small businesses that depend on them? What happens to the tax base that depends on those small businesses? The tax base that the municipalities need to pay YOUR salary?

Don't you think you're being a bit counter-productive here?

[Safetykitten]

168. "Should start" wow....

[LAGC]

172. Well, have you thought about inflation?

I know its not very high right now, but its still there. Even a couple percent erodes away at one's standard of living if his/her net pay doesn't increase from year to year.

So really, by promoting salary freezes that don't even keep up with inflation, how are you not looking at a decline in real net salary?

[Safetykitten]

179. Get back to us when you A. don't have a job, or B go out and try to get one.

[haele]

167. City's different than county, different than state, different than federal -

As a project manager in my former life, I've worked contracts with all of them and with commercial firms. Any installation, any project, any modification has to go through a series of assessments, reviews, and accreditation/approvals - and they take time. Now, I'm part of test, evaluation, and risk assessment for the federal government, and you wouldn't believe the amount of work that has to be done to ensure that changes or new implementation won't screw up an operating system.

If you're talking about unresponsive employees, I've had just as much half-assed slackery thrown my way from major corporate interests (especially medical facilities and insurance agencies) as I've had from county code offices. And I can tell you this. The engineers at your city or county have far more hoops, checklists and planning review meetings to go to than your architects had in developing the plans, because they have to risk manage both the community politics and the infrastructure that implementing your plan will affect. They have to do this day-in/day-out with not only your project, but everyone else's that comes across their desk. And they usually have to be on hand to help assess situational projects that deal with code violators and private individuals who think it's a-okay to just start a massive home lot improvement without contacting the city and getting approval.

If it takes three weeks for your plan to go through, chances are it's not the employees themselves, but the processes they have to go through, that were approved by city managers and the city council. Risk to infrastructure is a serious concern as existing resources are getting scarcer and the density of building and population in major metropolitan areas is increasing.

Look at it this way - you and presumably your work-group took x amount of man-hours to develop the plan; it should take at pretty much close to 2/3rds of man-hours for that plan to be independently assessed, because they're not going to take your word for it that you did what you said you did unless you have also employed an independent accreditor to verify that you followed code and this plan is what you say it's going to be.

I've waited five months for plans on a 1/2 mile long regional highway improvement installation (four ramp signals and sensor plates, plus landscaping and drainage) to be approved in Southern California back in the late '90's - and that was a "cut and paste" installation. But there were risk assessment and mitigation reasons for that delay, and ultimately, it probably ended up saving a million or so because of assessment work upfront that was done by the county engineers.

Much of the problem I see going on with complaints about lack of "hard workers" is too many people don't understand what happens on the other side of the counter. They often think that their office is allowed to have a little morale time or personal time that is interspersed into the workday - 'cause it's hard work, after all, and it's stressful and almost inhuman to be constantly on edge at the workplace. But every other office they go - well, it's customer service, and those over-paid slackers to need to be working nose to grindstone, forgoing lunch, bathroom or coffee breaks - or the occasional joking banter that has always gone on in every single office situation I've been at since 1976.
Yes, sometimes the chatter goes overboard into gossip, but there are times where the employee is between reports or waiting for a call back to complete, and they should be allowed some stress reduction.

As for wages - I know that the majority of County, State and Federal workers have seen the same flat pay-scale that the majority of private company employees have. But often times, the requirements for that job is much greater than it is for a private company, as there is usually no leeway in hiring "the boss's best friend's kid" into a position that should really have experience along with a college degree. And most private companies I have worked with make their money on having positions that are often meant to have a high rotation cycle of new-hire/quit/new-hire to keep costs down in their customer service, basic labor, and reception positions, rather than keep a steady employee in that position.

It does no good to keep pulling those struggling to stay in a middle class down into the squalor of class warfare.

FYI - so I don't get accused of being a slacker - I'm posting this after work...

Haele

[Safetykitten]

171. I will have back to your post...various reality errors

[superduperfarleft]

207. "various reality errors"

Is THAT was this is called?

[haele]

237. No reality errors, just a different perspective than the small businessman sees -

Earlier post of yours indicate you are in the LA area, an extremely political area to do business in, especially if it's a city planning job. But - my uncle used to work for the sewage system there as an engineer and department manager until 1995, and quite a few times after I started managing projects for government installation contracts, he'd talk about how any job that had grey or black-water, or affected the run-off channels in any way went across his desk for his small working group's assessment and approval. He had to ensure that the engineering was sound, that there was an adequate installation and testing process that was to code identified, and that the planning accurately recognized existing infrastructure and had risk mitigation processes in place to deal with known issues. And that was just his department; there were a good seven other departments any plan that touched groundwater runoff and channels, grey water or black-water had to go through.
He'd average about three a day, every work day. He didn't actually see any of the many people who brought their plans over, that was the poor sap at the front desk, but when there was a problem, he had to route it back to the planners to call the submitter; and the project sat at his desk until it was resolved. Every plan that crossed his desk had a minimum of ten man hours - if there was no problem at all(which only happened in one out of five submissions, according to his recollection).
This was the policy then; I imagine it's gotten even more complicated as time has gone on and more codes have been added; certainly on the CalTRANS project the company I worked for at the time won, there seemed to be.
This was the process from his side of "the counter."
The company that approaches the other side of the counter, the one that comes up with the plans may easily take as much time to develop a project as the approving government entity takes to review, assess, and stamp that plan.

Haele

[WestSeattle2]

205. No reality errors at all, that's exactly how it is. n/t

[MissB]

216. Nicely stated.

I'm a reviewer. An engineer with a *gasp* stamp. I work in state government. I may finish my portion of the review in the two week time frame allowed, but I must wait for other portions of plans to be reviewed by others. Unfortunately, I only have control over my own work schedule and no one else's. The OP seems more bent over the lack of communication by the local city government than Feds, but her rants throughout the thread have devolved into anti-government rants.

In the public sector, the most I will ever make is $80k/year. Dh, who holds the same professional registration as I, currently makes double that figure (edited to add: dh works in the private sector). I'm not in it for the money - clearly- but I do chuckle when I hear about overpaid government workers

[WestSeattle2]

227. I hear anti-public employee rants all the time in the Seattle

area. Truth be told, the only public employees who are paid more than the private sector (in many positions, not all) are City of Seattle and King County employees. The rest of pubic sector employees are paid on par with the private sector, or substantially below the private sector. Washington State employees, for example, are grossly underpaid. But, those who believe otherwise cannot be swayed by facts.

http://lbloom.net /

[Ghost of Tom Joad]

169. I'm going on two years without a pay raise

and my insurance keeps rising. Someday I think I'll be paying my employer.

[Safetykitten]

175. You should STOP doing what you are doing and DEMAND more money

immediately as then you will be seen as supportive of our Federal workers rights, and you know they would support you 100%.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. Sounds like you need to get a job with the federal govt and triple your pay

[Safetykitten]

177. The salaries for LA's are astronomical for the levels, Totally out of wack with the

private sector now.

[blondeatlast]

217. Then shut up and get one. Geez.

Or maybe you tried--could that be it?

[AnArmyVeteran]

180. The way things are going there might be an opening in 2012 that pays over $400k!

I'd vote for him if he had guts alone. The entire current federal government is a guts-free zone.

[Contrary1]

182. 23% pay cut here, and no raise in over 2 years...

Yet, my husband considers himself fortunate in that he still has a job.

[Safetykitten]

183. Federal or private?

[Contrary1]

186. Private. n/t

[Safetykitten]

187. So maybe, you would think that the federal employees and their syncophants would understand this

very basic thing.

Very glad he is hanging on, good luck to you.

[superduperfarleft]

203. For all this bragging about how qualified and professional and skilled and better than us

the OP is, has anyone noticed the irony that he/she is simultaneously complaining about CLEARLY NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH TO GET A JOB SOMEWHERE????

[Safetykitten]

210. Again, for the reading challenged.

I do have a job. It is helping my college buddy keep his office open. The firms have been dropping like flies, and he had to lay off his two Cad drafters. He was an excellent boss, always a friend and helping his two people out financially and with other things most other bosses would not do. he held them on as long as he could. I go in and help him do the work. The money he saves keeps the small building from going into foreclosure. I could use the 200 bucks a week, as I worked for myself and did well until the collapse three years ago.

Just so you know, I am in the running for a job in the gulf. The only issue is that I can work from home, but take care of an 86 year old mother just out of the hospital. If I get the job, the no-talent ass-wipe I am, I have to make arrangements for my mother to be taken care of.

[blondeatlast]

218. Yes, indeed.

This may well be the bestest DU thread ever!

[quaker bill]

206. What we should do

is slice up the labor market, one segment at a time, determine that they are getting favorable treatment, then demand benefit and salary reductions, once done there, we can move on to the next "privledged" segment. Sooner or later we can build a really great depression out of this recession. At some point, the cycle will come back to you, and it will be your turn to seem "overpaid" compared to others.

The point is that there is no zero sum game. Government salaries and benefits were not the reason the economy collapsed and reducing them will not assist the economy to recover. Austerity is at the heart of the problem, it is not a solution to it.

With changes in tax policy from the 1980s money shifted from wages to capital. Real wages have stagnated to declined through most of the middle class and downward, additionally real benefits have tanked, there is little in the way of pensions or even contributions to retirement savings in the private sector, you can't even get the sort of health insurance I had 35 years ago in the private or public sector.

They have not started rationing our food yet, but keep it up, and that is not all that far off.

[Safetykitten]

211. The question is who is left for it to visit? Cycle-wise?

[OnionPatch]

228. Yeah, let's make sure no middle class workers get any good pay or benefits.

Just as they planned......the little people turning on each other, fighting among themselves for the scraps the powers that be trickle down on us. Disgusting.

[Safetykitten]

232. Just some levity. Yes, most architects talk like this...Just kidding

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2PyeXRwhCE

[inna]

239. one sad OP. Glad most people disagree with the false premise. nt

[blondeatlast]

244. What really creeps me out about this OP is that the OP expected support and sympathy on a LIBERAL

board. Happy to see that wasn't the case; it gives me hope.

I guess I owe Mr. Kitten thanks, actually.

[MissB]

246. (I think it is Ms. Kitten)

[scarletwoman]

250. Nope, it's Mr. -- see post #220. (nt)

[MissB]

253. Thanks! I stand corrected :)

[Safetykitten]

261. Don't be so formal.... Kitty, Fluffy, whatever

[Mimosa]

247. What are you saying?

I am appalled by the attacks on Safety Kitten. 'Conservatives' on rightwing boards call people names like 'dumbfuck'. I have seldom if ever seen such crude vicious namecalling here.

[blondeatlast]

256. I'm saying that liberals should support labor, not look down on it. Mr. Kitten

seems to disagree--I'm guessing you haven't read through the entire thread.

Mr. Kitten has been "stamped," therefore the rest of us aren't fit to comment on his precious predicament.

[Mimosa]

260. Ikwym.

Haven't read the whole thread. But there are people here attacking Safety Kitten using terms one usually sees mainly on rightwing 'conservative' sites.

Sometimes in this harsh economic environment people are going to get frustrated and they need to blow off steam.

[blondeatlast]

265. I do hope you notice the manner in which Mr. Kitten addresses others as well,

My dad was a professional, I'm almost one (represented by a professional guild, in fact), and I don't think of laborers as second-class at all; never have, never will.

[Safetykitten]

268. You have the strange idea that I think i am better than others.

People here have told me that:

I should leave the field.

Go somewhere else.

The profession is a joke.

Yet, offering again and again the advice of demanding more money, unionizing a firm,(which I don't think has ever happened in the history of architecture or landscape architecture), and just basically fuck off.

[blondeatlast]

386. No one, but no one has told you that your profession is a joke.

In fact, landscape architects perform a most valuable service in the deserts of Arizona and I know that it takes engineering skill to do the job, especially here.

But you kept insisting about MadHound and rug's careers--when it didn't matter. If your behavior here is indicative of your job performance, well--I won't comment further; I think a little introspection by you is warranted.

Technical skill is not the only requirement to succeed in the workplace and when dealing with clients. People skill matter a lot, too.

[flvegan]

248. This thread has not gone well.

While I feel for your situation, this probably wasn't the best way to vent about it.

[scarletwoman]

252. He's resentful because one of the galley slaves is getting more gruel.

Seriously, see his post #178: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[blondeatlast]

257. Yep--

I'm thinking Mr. Kitten applied to the Feds at some point.

[Safetykitten]

264. While I appreciate the kind words, I don't test my posts for sucess.

I think anyone would be hard pressed, even in very liberal surroundings, say an architectural office or a landscape architecture firm, to not hear what I just posted.

The idea is simple. The federal workers take the lumps just like the other citizens have for the last (in some regions) three years.

[SHRED]

249. Bashing the middle class

Fucking brilliant.

[Lucky 13]

267. FAIL

You seem quite bitter about your misfortunes and wish others to suffer your same plight. Until all of the middle-class gets up and demands pay that keeps pace with inflation... We won't get it.

And oh, btw, most government agencies I work with are terribly understaffed and are struggling to keep pace with the demands they have on their departments.

Sorry your experience has been different. Sorry you aren't making as much as you feel you are worth. But don't spread your misery in others. But just because you don't have what you want isn't justification for others to be held down.

[Safetykitten]

270. Spin it any way you want.

[Lucky 13]

273. Ain't no spin, honey.

I think you could benefit from some therapy.

Your anger is completely misplaced. Instead of focusing on your middle class peers, try examining the corrupt system of big banks and corporate overlords and austerity measures.

And try not to act so shocked when people here don't buy your bullshit.

[Safetykitten]

276. You do know I am a Mr. kitten, not a Ms, unless that is aiming at me being gay.

[Lucky 13]

289. "Honey" is gender neutral. Yes I know you are gay. So am I...

But keep deflecting... Honey.

[Safetykitten]

297. Well then you get it. Wise up.

[JoseGaspar]

272. This OP is brilliant...

It is a perfect illustration of how a mean spirited "policy" which hurts real people but has almost no real budgetary implications may, nevertheless, be politically useful as a "dog whistle". The OP has heard exactly what he was meant to hear and has elaborated it brilliantly, as well... tossing in the problems of free-enterprise beset by regulation and the unresponsive excesses of big government.

This is worthy of much deeper elaboration.

How do you feel about welfare cheats, taxes, affirmative action, entitlements, unions, special interests, people older than you, people younger than you, people with pets and children, the South, the North, the West, the East, everyone who isn't an American, people who want to take away your freedom, and environmentalists who destroy jobs?

What can the President do to dredge up those other feelings?

[Safetykitten]

275. You really overestimate me. Nice compliment though.

[anaxarchos]

278. My pleasure...

No compliment intended.

Really...

[Safetykitten]

280. No emotion from me....really.

[laughingliberal]

274. Pure, unadulterated BS.

They certainly have cut policemen and firemen where I live. They also closed several fire stations increasing response time by 15 minutes over previous response times. Not to mention, they have closed several DMV locations here and increased the wait times at the locations left by an hour or more over previous wait times.

Unrec for divide and conquer, class warfare on workers.

[TheKentuckian]

277. Advocates for wage destruction are generally tedious.

Classist doubly so.

So you really think it is beneficial to the broader economy to take even more money out of the hands of working class people, particularly in a wage and benefit SETTING sector???

Plus, you sound like you're really calling for layoffs, like more fucking people out of work is good for us.

Only a supply sider could even consider such nonsense at this point. We need direct government hiring not layoffs and compensation reduction.

I haven't worked for the government or been in a union a day in my life but I cannot relate to the disdain, anger, and pettiness. Nor not understanding what unions have meant to our working folks in this country.

Honestly, people like you have contributed mightily to the state of our nation and world today.

[Safetykitten]

279. I'm not working class. Unless you have been asleep, I make 200 a week.

[TheKentuckian]

288. How does wage destruction and/or additional unemployment help your case?

Isn't it worth considering that reducing overall systemic demand is only going to make it less likely for you to bring in income?

You realize your gig is heavily dependent on the "fat" of society, right?

Drawing up the old belt is totally deadly to you. You are largely in a non-essential field, especially as the capital projects dry up.

Your anger is misdirected. Focus on anyone but those that have been reaping the harvest at the expense of most of the people in the nation and the world is between a waste and utterly counter productive.

Instead of focusing on where the money is, in a snit you are out squeezing every turnip and stone you can get your hands on. Not in hopes of even getting more for you but out of some petty and visceral reaction that spurs you to bring other workers down to your level. Even if the net result is EVEN LESS for you and everyone else but those with so much money that the bulk of it is essentially speculative since they can't cash out are peachy.

I guess in your mind they deserve it because they have the proper "stamps" or whatever you feel makes you fart roses and shit honeysuckle.

[Safetykitten]

296. Wow, it's like you are in my brain!

I see now, a useless profession, how could I have not seen that. The profession that is on the leading edge of sustainability, re-use, land planning, smart growth, transportation planning, design for liveability, green roofs, LEED certification for landscapes, parks, recreation, residentail design, new ways of water harvesting, low water use native landscapes, wonderfull designs that millions of people use every day, all that, it's useless!

How could I not have seen that. I better tell the kids coming out of school! Fuck this shit.

A guy from presumably Kentucky says so!

[wickerwoman]

367. He didn't say "useless"; he said "capital dependant".

No banks lending = no development = no work for architects

What do federal workers have to do with that equation?

Not much, except that:

more people making a decent wage -> more people buying houses, more developers building malls, a larger tax base and more funding for parks, smart growth projects and transportation -> more work for architects

But keep cutting your nose off to spite your face. Clearly it's accomplishing something.

[TheKentuckian]

370. Useless was not what I said at all. Luxury is closer but not totally accurate. NON-ESSENTIAL

was my point.

If we aren't building anything and not upgrading (or even maintaining, for that matter) existing property what is it that you are going to do?

You can at least admit that services like yours are among the first to get the axe? I certainly appreciate what you do but like it or not you subsist off of mostly fat. You are not in a muscle and bone field no matter how much better off we might well be if people like yourself were involved in every project and given all possible consideration.

It is not to be taken as an insult to state that at this time in history your area of work is not at the front of the line of priorities.

No bucks, no Buck Rogers and if people are tight on money and governments are tight on money and the corporations won't spend and the banks won't lend you and your colleges and competitors start being excluded from most of the few projects there are. They'll just level and build cheap bullshit. As far as the clients are concerned your number is way the fuck behind "backhoe driver" and "electrician".

Not having some acceptance of this obvious reality has to lead to even more frustration than the mighty financial hardship. You are under the impression that if you work hard, do a great job, work your way up, build a great knowledge base, and jumped all the hoops that you would be rewarded because you had earned it but I have the grave duty of informing you that that has way less to. Do with reality than I'm comfortable with and suspect that plays a big part in your frustration.

The demand for your services at a professional rate in this economy is minimal, hence you struggle.

So now you pick targets that you don't feel worked as hard as you or dotted their I's as perfectly as you did down instead of wondering why the system is bullshit built on bullshit to funnel money and control of resources to the chosen few.

You are also super lame for trying to rip on me being from Kentucky when you don't have the sense to know you are arguing to cut off your nose to spite your face as well as push demonstrably failed economic ideology essentially for spite rather than even a pretense of benefit.

[Safetykitten]

378. Nice edit on your value of the profession.

You say that, back it out.

[laughingliberal]

286. +1000 nt

[live love laugh]

281. You assume that federal workers DON'T have "two degrees"? Many do.

And they are paid less than private industry for equivalent education.

[Safetykitten]

283. I said that becuase of the usual, which would be..."well get an educashun!"

[live love laugh]

291. Huh? nt

[laughingliberal]

285. That was a bit of snottiness-the assumption that the federal work force is uneducated. nt

[Safetykitten]

287. If you are just going to make things up, go all the way.

[laughingliberal]

292. Came across pretty snotty to me. As did the bit about police and fire people never being let go. nm

[WillyT]

282. Two College Degrees... Really ???

You should have become a government worker, apparently.

[Safetykitten]

290. Chart of salaries...looks like I was wrong.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-...

[laughingliberal]

295. The fight should be to bring the pay of all workers up, not to bring the pay of some down. nt

[Safetykitten]

300. Or maybe,j ust maybe realize they are not the only ones hurting, so jump in and shut up.

[laughingliberal]

304. Or maybe, just maybe people wouldn't be hurting so much if we hadn't been throwing workers under...

the bus for 30 years while we gave the country away to the robber barons.

We've been out of work with no unemployment benefits for 3 years. You got nothing on me for suffering. But dragging workers down further is not the answer no matter how satifying that seems to you.

[Safetykitten]

307. You can come work with me. I can teach you AutoCad. No fucking joking.

Of course you would not get paid my salary of 200 a week, but you would learn something that sometimes gets you a job these days.

[laughingliberal]

311. I'm 55 years old and nursed for 30 years.

I'm applying for my disability as I've been worked half to death, now.

It is time for people to realize the war on workers isn't benefiting anyone but the oligarchs. We're being worked to death for slave wages and I have no love for workers who turn on other workers. It's just allowing it to keep getting worse.

[Safetykitten]

313. I'm 52! and you can move a mouse. So the offer is there.

But gettting blamed for the sins of not asking for more money in a recession/depression, not unionizing, or WTF ever, while I am supposed to support a group that will not consider a pay FREEZE is bizzare.

[laughingliberal]

318. Sorry. I really am disabled, now.

Being able to move a mouse does not constitute an ability to sustain activity in a way that would result in SGA.

It is never a good idea to drive wages down. I have had nothing to say about you asking for raises or unionizing your shop or any of that. But driving down wages of other workers is not going to result in more for you. It's just another step on the way to the Feudal States of America. I see no way you, personally, benefit cause someone else gets their pay frozen.

[Safetykitten]

333. You have difficulty with a mouse? If you do there are other ways, but the offer is there.

The fact is wages are down. Now we are going to fight? Now? And pull from limb to limb anyone that disagrees.

It would look better and help out more in the long run so the republicans can't throw it back.

[sweetloukillbot]

346. So federal LAs make 80K, private LAs make 58K and you're making 10K?

Sounds like the problem is more than just the overpaid government workers...

[Safetykitten]

352. Helping friend keep firm open. He helps me, I help him....

drastic times, drastic measures.

Landscape architect. Not architect. Think shrubs.

[sweetloukillbot]

361. I understand - I was looking at Landscape Architect on that USA Today chart

And I admire your willingness to help a friend stay afloat - but taking sub-minimum wages? That almost sounds like you are being taken advantage of. I made more than $200 a week when I was underemployed and delivering pizzas 20 hours a week. Not much more, mind you...

[stevenleser]

294. You make a common mistake. You are projecting your anger against people other than those who have

caused your issue. I see it all the time with people who rant against unions. The logic boils down to:

"They have it better than me so they are bad"

Unions have fought to get what EVERYONE should have for the people that they represent.

If you dont have things as good as federal workers have them, then you need to take action against your employer or get another job. The action to take is to unionize your shop.

[Safetykitten]

298. The history of unionizing a design office.....none. nada. zip.

[stevenleser]

316. And that is the fault of federal workers how?

No matter where you go with your argument, you cannot create a logical one that pins the blame for your situation on federal workers.

Now, if you had a chat with the folks over at the SEIU, they might have some ideas for how you could try to unionize your shop. Ultimately, for you to get what you deserve, you may have to vote with your feet as they say.

[Safetykitten]

320. What? I blame what on who? I blamed them for me being a landscape architect?

They took federal jobs. I took a private sector one. The economy has tanked. Everyone is suffering. They need to take one for the team. It's just a fucking freeze! They still have almost never ending jobs with benefits. What is this rocket science?

Give me one person now that would turn down a federal job...with a freeze. Show me that moron who would give that up.

[blondeatlast]

372. The history of organizing railroad workers when my grandfather did it--zip.

Yet he and his colleagues did it.

[Liquorice]

299. I agree. The attitude of the OP is called envy, and it's an incredibly destructive force

for an individual or a society.

[Safetykitten]

303. Time for deep thoughts.

[laughingliberal]

306. Yeah. Deep thoughts like 'I can't get my calls returned from city employees, so fuck 'em?' nt

[Safetykitten]

309. I have no shrink money, so the comments here are very helpfull, but

if you think I am the ONLY Democrat that thinks this way, professional help may be needed by others.

[laughingliberal]

312. I'm aware the economic policies of Reagan that started the whole mess are now firmly entrenched...

in the Democratic party. It does not mean they aren't the same old working/middle class destroying policies they've been for 30 years.

[Safetykitten]

314. I'm too old to fall for that shit. It's sharing the pain gang...

and don't blame me that President Obama is not going after the fat cats....

[laughingliberal]

319. No. It's not sharing the pain. That's the point. All the pain has been in the same direction...

for 30 years. There's no way around it. Over 30 years workers' wages have declined/stagnated while those at the top have seen overwhelming increases. The income disparity is greater now than it was in the Depression. Further wage suppression is not going to help anyone except the fat cats.

[Safetykitten]

325. Oh, I get it. Line in the sand kind of thing. Go after the private sector guy

that suggests thay take the freeze. What? No WAY! This is about the priciple. The federal employees will stand with us when we go asking for, no wait...DEMANDING a raise in a unemployement market of officailly over 9%, unofficially 20%.

Yes that's it. Make a stand against the corporatists with the Federal employees, like they will stand in solidarity with the future rebels as they get laughed out of their firms partners office and be told to sit their asses in that designer chair and get back to work.

Idealism is not bad, I like it myself, but the most idiotic posts are apparently from people who have jobs.

[laughingliberal]

334. You're really not making sense. Downward pressure on wages hurts everyone except the oligarchs. nt

[Safetykitten]

343. You lost me at the oligarchs. Fight your battle with someone else expendable to you.

[laughingliberal]

348. Oligarchs and those who love them are quite expendable to me as I and all workers are to them. nm

[Safetykitten]

349. Yes, yes...let me know where I bring the coffee urn for the next rebellion meet up.

[laughingliberal]

355. Or we can just go quietly into our new serfdom blaming 'gummint' workers all the way down. nt

[Safetykitten]

359. No more extra coffee for you, you rebellion coffee achiever you.

And recruit some fodder from upthread, or better yet! Get some federal employees to go with you.

[donheld]

301. Total Facepalm.

[rury]

305. Go screw yourself!!

[Safetykitten]

308. The irony. Your avatar and your comment.

[HEyHEY]

315. Yes, it appears the rich are bastards

And the lower classes all have to suffer and sacrifice... that is until you ask them to. DU seems content to say the rich and well-off should be the ones taking the bullets here... yet, as soon as you go after federal workers, suddenly these standards don't apply.

Everyone has been subject to this, why should federal workers be different? If they don't have the money to pay them... do the horrible deed of freezing pay. It's not like inflation is going off the map at the moment, we ARE in a recession.

[laughingliberal]

321. Federal workers are not 'the rich.' nt

[HEyHEY]

322. that's my point

[laughingliberal]

323. I guess your point is not clear. I'm against wage suppression. nt

[HEyHEY]

324. What I'm saying is that

It seems everyone on this site wants everyone else to be the one to suffer. I just think, considering what everyone else is going through at the moment, a two year wage freeze, if kept only to two years, is appropriate if the money is that tight.

[Safetykitten]

327. Oh boy....

[laughingliberal]

330. The wealth disparity is now greater than it was in the Depression. Only one class should be asked...

to sacrifice right now and it is the ones at the top. Their tax rates are 1/2 what they were 30 years ago and their incomes are stratospherically more than 30 years ago. I am against ANY further downward pressure on wages. Wages have stagnated/declined for all in the working/middle classes over 30 years. Every time another group of workers is forced into concessions, it's another step backwards. Supply side economics don't work. A sound economy is built on a workforce that has some money to spend and some time to enjoy it.

[HEyHEY]

332. I agree, but at the moment I think things are in such a mess

That this is an action to be taken for immediate mitigation. In the meantime work on the taxing of high income earners and such.

[laughingliberal]

336. This wage freeze helps nothing. It saves very little and what it saves will not be spent to help...

anyone who really needs it. This is Reaganomics, pure and simple.

[Mimosa]

335. No, but it's a myth that federal workers are paid less than private sector.

It's a myth that federal workers are paid less than private sector:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-...

I'm not in this bashing anybody, I've no dog in this hunt other than empathy and fairness.

I knew the frustration and anxiety would happen when regular people didn't even get any damn crumbs. It is damn scary to be over 50 and not be able to afford health insurance. We got screwed.

[JVS]

363. Why are you conflating federal workers with the rich?

[HEyHEY]

394. I'm not

I'm explaining myself poorly. I'm saying that I've notice that on DU it seems that everyone is pointing fingers at only the rich. Times are really desperate and everyone is being hit hard is what I'm saying I guess.

[Liquorice]

326. Would it make you happy if federal workers had the same bad situation that you have? Would you be

satisfied if they had no benefits and low pay? If you believe they are getting paid too much, how much less should they be paid, and should all of their benefits be taken away, or just some of them? Misery certainly loves company.

[Safetykitten]

328. dupe

[Liquorice]

340. So you just think they shouldn't complain about the wage freeze, but you don't think

their pay or benefits should be cut?

I think it's a bad move for Obama and for the country for many reasons. I believe he is doing it for the right-wing, hoping to show he will bend to their will and hoping to use this move in negotiations with them down the road. It won't work. Republicans don't give an inch under any circumstance. I also believe this looks like a move of a president who is acting out of weakness, not strength. In politics, appearance is everything. Freezing the pay of 2 million people is not going to do anything good for the economy either. That's just less money going into the economy.

[Safetykitten]

342. They should keep whatever they have now. No cuts. Take the freeze.

They still have access to healthcare without question.

More than any of us have or will ever get.

[Liquorice]

345. It's not more than any of us have or will ever get. The federal employee

health care coverage is good, but it isn't any better than my friend's health care coverage, and he is a full-time night-shift stocker at a grocery store. In fact, he has better dental...

The truth is everyone should have access to great health care, and it shouldn't be tied to employment. That is the problem.

[Safetykitten]

347. You think health isurance grows on trees?

You have it. Others will NEVER have it for the rest of their LIVES. No matter what they do.

Now tell me how federal employees are getting the shaft.

Oh, and an interesting note, as where were the federal employees during the HCR fiasco? Would it not be logical that if I am supporting your right to have it as an employee, where are the federal employees screaming about how unfair what the private sector got as a healthcare fucking surprise?

I missed that part.

[Liquorice]

356. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not a federal employee. I also

was without health insurance during a very bad time in my life, and grew up very poor. I am covered now because of a family member, and I am extremely grateful every single day for it. As for HCR, I have been actively supporting health care reform since before I was old enough to vote because I know the hell of not being covered on a very personal level. Lashing out at others without knowing them or their background is just stupid. Not everyone has it better than you, and some may even have it worse.

[Safetykitten]

358. If you have been supporting HCR then why not question if it is good

enough for us, and demanded by some that we support federal workers and their plight with a freeze, why no return or barely a peep when we got the shaft?

So now we are required to support a group and their fight when we ourselves will never have what they have in healtcare. They said nothing when it passed, and promoted it. Where were they when we got screwed?

But no, lets support them in their fight for no freeze and their shitty no denial healthcare.

[Safetykitten]

329. No, you get what you get. Not my problem, but the hair-raising screams

over a wage freeze, in this economy?

Really, government workers should not overplay their hand. Not in this economy, not with the mood of the country.

[laughingliberal]

331. Downward pressure on wages is not going to benefit anyone but the same people who have been...

making out like bandits for 3 decades.

[Safetykitten]

337. So where were you for the this? My post ignites the march of all that is

righ for all AND federal employees? Yet also throwing me in the pen of the undeserving of the useless profession?

Little big for a quick turn around?

[laughingliberal]

350. I don't see where you got thrown by me in the pen of an 'undeserving or useless' profession.

I also don't see how one group of oppressed workers benefits from the oppression of other workers. It just keeps the march towards lower wages for all moving along.

[Safetykitten]

354. Read above for useless comments...

[laughingliberal]

357. Not my comments, not my fight. I have not disparaged you or your profession in any way. nt

[Name removed]

360. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Safetykitten]

338. dupe

[Safetykitten]

339. dupe

[defendandprotect]

341. Obama decides to punish the little guy because the fat cats created a depression?

Let's create accountability for these crimes --

and let me add -- the bail outs were simply more crime on top of crime!!

[Safetykitten]

344. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts...

and Obama had a real WPA style get back to work program, we may not be having this pleasant exchange of ideas.

[LAGC]

364. This is first sensible thing you've said in this entire thread.

Shouldn't the focus be on MORE Federal intervention in this economy, MORE Federal jobs, and thus: more Federal pay?

You seem to understand that we need more stimulus by this government, not less? So why rag on Federal worker pay?

[blondeatlast]

374. Exactly. nt

[laughingliberal]

351. +1000 nt

[Name removed]

368. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

369. for someone with two college degrees, you have very poor writing skills

sentences alternate between being too choppy and too long (comma abuse alert!) and include incorrect use of tense and numbers (instead of written words for numbers). Overall you sound very inarticulate, although you do manage to let us know you are incomplete whining mode.

[Safetykitten]

379. Not writing for you. I am not as violently pendantic on grammar as you.

[Binka]

382. Pendantic? Fucking Pendantic? That IS NOT A WORD!

It's PEDANTIC. I see you have attended the Glenn Beck school of using words you don't understand and can't spell. You must be the love child of Hamden Rice and Time For Peace. Go chew your toenails..again.

[blondeatlast]

384. ...

I (heart) Binka!

[Safetykitten]

385. pedantic...sorry.

[Binka]

387. No

Your litter box stinks and sorry is NOT enough.

[Skittles]

392. THANKS BINKA!!

LOVE YA GAL

[blondeatlast]

383. But you certainly were insistent on pushing your exalted TWO DEGREES and STAMPING.

Had you not bragged about your education so much, we'd likely let it pass.

There's a reason the vast majority of DU doesn't know I'm an editor and ex-HS English instructor. I don't want to invite that kind of commentary--but you did by trumpeting your education.

[LWolf]

371. I'm a public employee.

In the spring of '09, 17% of my colleagues were laid off. No openings left by retirements and people who moved out of the area since then have been filled. No one has been called back to work. Concurrently with that lay off, we took a pay cut. We also took a cut in the number of days worked that fiscal year...so a double pay-cut. Then, when more bad news came out of the governor's office in June, we took another pay cut. In spring of '10, we took another pay cut...then, again, more bad news from the governor. We took a 4th pay cut, and cut some more days of work out of this fiscal year. In October, our health insurance premiums went up 30%, and our deductibles doubled; in some cases, tripled. I couldn't afford the copays and deductibles BEFORE that increase. I haven't had access to health care in 2 years, despite my supposedly good insurance. We're hearing more predictions of state budget disaster. There may not be a way to avoid more lay offs this spring. If that happens, I won't have a job at all.

I don't have enough fuel to see me through the frozen winter. I can't afford to fix the roof or the damage done by LAST winters hard freeze. I can't afford to fix the wiring that leaves me limping along with half the outlets and overhead lights in the house not working.

Meanwhile, the number of homeless students, students who are coming to school underfed and underclothed for the winter, and families in crisis in my community continues to rise. We're putting in long days and unpaid hours trying to address those needs as well as their academic needs.

I don't need to fucking endear myself to you. This economic crisis affects all of us.

[raccoon]

375. I work at a state agency in a so-called "right to work" state. I have worked

here for years now and am still part-time, no benefits.

I asked a woman in HR at least 5 years ago how many workers are part-time and she told me 50%.

At a meeting this past fall a speaker said that since 2007, the agency had eliminated 118 FULL-TIME (and benefited) positions.

PM me and I'll tell you who my employer is.

"An eye for an eye makes the world blind." --- Gandhi

[Safetykitten]

380. So you think that is a special case? It mirrors the private sector.

so it's happening just like in the private sector. Probably not as much as you think overall but it is happening.

And wage freezes and wage cuts are happening everywhere, but oh, we can't let THAT happen in the federal government.

[raccoon]

389. No, I just wanted you to know government jobs aren't all wonderful jobs with terrific benes.

You may've known that, but I think there's lots out there who don't.

[LWolf]

395. I think that's the point.

It doesn't matter if it's public or private, we're all taking hits.

Of course, Democrats traditionally support public services, ESPECIALLY during economic downturns, when more people need more services.

If you have a point to make, rather than ranting about the federal government, I've yet to see it. Ranting about government is usually a favored RW activity.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

376. OP makes decent point on pay freeze not being that big of a deal...but

Okay, people in the private sector are unlikely to get raises. That being said, I got a raise of 13% last year, being on the bottom rung of my company doing menial clerical work(I worked for a process service company, so business was booming, to be fair). My father got a 6% raise for a company not doing so great...so it's not unheard of. But yeah, a lot of people have lost their jobs or aren't getting raise/getting pay cuts. So it's not the biggest deal in the world, in my opinion, that federal workers, who tend to make okay money and get good benefits, aren't getting a pay raise. I'd still prefer that it not be that way, but I get that the point exists.

Where the OP loses the plot is in his boring stereotype of federal workers being lazy and entitled. I've worked in the private sector, I've worked in the public sector (clerk at a state university) and when I worked at the process serving company we dealt with public officials a lot and I was in a building with a lot of public workers that I got to know during smoke breaks. There's essentially no difference between attitude towards work between public and private workers. There are plenty of lazy workers in private businesses...anybody who says there aren't probably just hasn't worked in a large enough office. The only real difference that I've found between public and private workers is that those working in the public sector tend to have much better morale and actually believe that they are helping people. Clerks in Social Security, Child Support, Public Universities...these are all people who seem to be pretty sure they could be making more money elsewhere, but really believe in what they are doing and love their job. Not that they are necessarily should feel good about what they do, that's based on your own opinion of those institutions, but they do believe that they're doing good, so why should I begrudge them?

[blondeatlast]

377. Very well said. Your experiences echo mine in both the public and private sectors.

Happy to welcome you to DU!

[GoCubsGo]

396. I used to work at a fedral facility for over 20 years.

The private contractors got paid much more than any of the people who held federal jobs. And, those of us who were working state jobs got chickenshit, in comparison to either of them. My co-workers and I would be out in the woods doing our field work, and who would we find out on the back roads taking naps, committing adultery, getting drunk, playing poker...? Hint: It wasn't the government (state or federal) workers.

I don't begrudge most federal workers their pay raises. I only begrudge the ones who habitually vote GOP, and I know several of those. I have absolutely no sympathy for them. The others work their asses off for what they make, and they deserve a pay raise. I'm sad that they're not getting one. I'm even more sad that the odds of my getting any sort of federal job are deteriorating by the day. And, I could sure use a job right now.