Is a Storm Brewing in Europe? Al Jazeera English Looks at the Growing Islamophobia There (Pic Heavy)

[Turborama]

(edited for copyright purposes-proud patriot Moderator Democratic Underground)


Since its formation in 2009, the English Defence League has held protests in nearly all British cities


Although it claims to be a peaceful group, violence has erupted at most of its demonstrations


Tinderbox towns such as Bradford and Oldham - which witnessed race riots in 2001 - have been among the its targets


At a derelict building in Luton, one member of the EDL explained: "For more than a decade now, there has been tension in Luton between
Muslim youths and whites"


He added: "Our government does nothing, so we decided we would start protesting against radical Islam, and it grew from there"


With Islam becoming the fastest-growing religion in Europe, their fear that traditional British culture is under threat has been exacerbated


While the league publicly espouses peaceful protest, there is growing concern over its secrecy and quasi-military appearance - as well as
some of its membership


Many people are concerned that the EDL appears to be becoming more organised and is feeding off growing Islamophobia


And with similar groups appearing across Europe, for example the French and Dutch Defence Leagues, there are fears that violence could
spread across the continent

By Billy Briggs

On platform one at Bolton train station in England a mob of about 100 men punch the air in unison as a chant - "Muslim bombers, off our streets!'' - goes up. Their voices echo loudly, and as more men suddenly appear, startled passengers move aside. The protesters wave St George's Cross flags - the red and white English national emblem - and raise placards. Some wear balaclavas, others black-hooded tops. There is an air of menace.

These are some of the most violent football hooligans in Britain and today they have joined in an unprecedented show of strength. Standing shoulder to shoulder are notorious gangs such as Cardiff City's Soul Crew, Bolton Wanderers' Cuckoo Boys and Luton Town's Men In Gear: a remarkable gathering given that on a match day these men would be fighting each other. But today they are not here for football; it is politics that has drawn them. Their destination is Manchester to support a protest by the newly formed English Defence League.

=snip=

A ready-made army?

The league seemed to spring from nowhere in 2009, but since its formation the far-right movement has held major protests in nearly all of Britain's cities. Although it claims to be a peaceful group, violence has erupted at most league demonstrations, with its supporters fighting on the streets against police, Muslim youths and a group called Unite Against Fascism, an umbrella organisation consisting mainly of students and trade unionists and formed in 2003 to oppose the far-right. During the fighting hundreds of people have been arrested, weapons have been seized and city centres have been brought to a standstill.

Britain has not witnessed such street violence for many years and there are growing fears that the league - despite its official multiracial stance - has become a ready-made army for neo-Nazis who for years have operated underground and that tensions will erupt resulting in major disorder.

=snip=

(snip)

Full article: http://english.aljazeera.net/photo_galleries/europe/2010112275625847519.html

I cannot find an "all rights reserved" or copyright notice on their site. However, http://blogs.aljazeera.net/">their blog site does have this link: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/">


Edited to add these links to further reading on this topic.

The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/john-cruddas-english-defence-league">English Defence League is a bigger threat than the BNP, http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/english-defence-league-tea-party">English Defence League forges links with America's Tea Party & http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/19/far-right-demos-islamic-extremism">Far right demonstrations 'fuel Islamic extremism'

The former Mayor of London Ken Livingston: http://www.onesocietymanycultures.org/2010/11/speak-out-against-racism-and-islamophobia/">Speak out against racism and Islamophobia

Searchlight: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/The-Extremist-Defence-League">The Extremist Defence League, http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/features/English-Defence-League-Hooligans-Unmasked.php">English Defence League Hooligans Unmasked & http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/">English Defence League Cracks Begin to Show

[readmoreoften]

1. The Right in Europe is growing even more rapidly than here.

one of the big groups in England fighting EDL in the streets is the Socialist Workers Party. Martin Smith is talking about the situation in this audiocast. It's definitely worth a listen.

http://wearemany.org/a/2010/06/rise-of-right-in-europe

[Turborama]

12. Thank you for the heads up...

Downloading it now to have a listen. I haven't come across that site before, looks well worth checking out every now and then for updates. Bookmarked.

:hi:

[leftstreet]

22. Thanks for posting that

!!

[TheBigotBasher]

117. The far right is not

and they have not taken over the mainstream European Conservatives in the same way they have in the US however just as America funded IRA terrorists, it is now funding right wing terrorists. The SOIE/EDL were a rag bag bunch of lunatics but the disgraceful disgusting creature that is Pamela Geller secured these Neo-Nazi thugs funds they could have never dreamed about.

American politicians also gave Geert Wilders an extra credibility by providing him a platform to promote his own brand of hate.

[LeftishBrit]

2. Here is a link to a good organization opposing the Far Right in Britain

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/

Hope Not Hate campaigns against such organizations as the BNP (whom they helped to defeat resoundingly in the May general election) and the EDL.

Unfortunately, anti-immigrant extremist parties have a long tradition in Europe. Islamophobia, though very real, is often secondary to a more general xenophobia.

[reggie the dog]

5. true dat

the nationalists here in france give shit to anyone that talks french with an accent, anyone who is not catholic, and anyone who is not white. my girlfriend is a créole and i speak with an accent. i live in the most racist region of france, the south east, and where i live the nationalist racist party, the fn, gets between 25 and 40 % of the votes depending on the town you are in. i have had people block the trail while on my bike because they thought the white soccer shirt i had on was team england, i explained that i was not english and had no english roots but that many of my friends did and that they could tell the difference between a white england home game shirt and a white france home away shirt; i also explained that the uk and the usa expelled the nazis from their country including my grandpa but i conceded that he would probably have been happy to speak german so long as he could kill jews and english speaking people, i had a french man of north african origins who told me and and american friend he would throw us off a bridge if we continued speaking english, i very meanly told him that if he didnt shut the fuck up i would throw him in the river like the cops did to people like his grandpa in paris in the 60's (i know its bad but fuck him).... having said that i have had far more problems in the usa just for having long hair;....

[readmoreoften]

7. that sucks.

:(

[Turborama]

13. I just discovered Hope Not Hate through Searchlight's site

Those articles above that I said are from Searchlight are actually from the Hope Not Hate site. According to http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/what-is/">their site, Hope not hate is Searchlight's campaign to counter racism and fascism in elections and beyond.

This one is a particularly interesting read (lots of really good links on the side and at the bottom, as well): http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/The-Extremist-Defence-League

The immigration cap has just been announced. Sounds like the Tories have started pulling up the drawbridge.

[JCMach1]

3. Extremists taking advantage of extremism... no shock there

One thing that living in the Middle East has given me is a virulent hatred for all fundamentalists and extremists. I equal opportunity hate ALL of them.

[reggie the dog]

4. these yahoos are a tiny tiny number of people

they want to ban the burka but hide their own faces...... dipshits.... the same law that prevents women from wearing a face veil here in france prohibits masks like those assholes are wearing, the fact that they hide their identity shows that they are not well accepted. i would get right in the face of thugs like that if i ever saw them in france. fuck it if i lose the fight at least one of them would be bleeding too

[reggie the dog]

6. these are yobs, holligans

who are banned from soccer stadiums, and likely would have been killing catholics but that is no longer as accepted as it was in the 70s

ask irish catholics about it.... they got horrible shit if they lived in england or northern ireland (not the rest of the uk) just because of their accent

this is not new.. the target is just different. i would give that thug shit for scaring women to the point they cry. i have found that "common sheep" often do what's right if someone leads the way. someone else in the train car would back me up

[pampango]

8. English Defence League forges links with America's Tea Party

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/10/english-defence-league-tea-party

The English Defence League, a far-right grouping aimed at combating the "Islamification" of British cities, has developed strong links with the American Tea Party movement. An Observer investigation has established that the EDL has made contact with anti-jihad groups within the Tea Party organisation and has invited a senior US rabbi and Tea Party activist to London this month. Rabbi Nachum Shifren, a regular speaker at Tea Party conventions, will speak about Sharia law and also discuss funding issues.

The league has also developed links with Pamela Geller, who was influential in the protests against plans to build an Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero. Geller, darling of the Tea Party's growing anti-Islamic wing, is advocating an alliance with the EDL. The executive director of the Stop Islamisation of America organisation, she recently met EDL leaders in New York and has defended the group's actions, despite a recent violent march in Bradford.

Geller, who denies being anti-Muslim, said in one of her blogs: "I share the EDL's goals… We need to encourage rational, reasonable groups that oppose the Islamisation of the west."

With the Tea Party said to benefit from millions of dollars of funding from conservative foundations, experts warn an alliance between the EDL and extremist elements within the US movement could allow the English group to invest in wider recruitment and activism.

[Bullet1987]

17. Big money is certainly involved then...

It's part of a growing anti-Islam movement all over the Western world. It's been concealed for years, but it's about time people are noticing it and calling it what it is.

[sabrina 1]

36. There has to be money behind this. It would be interesting to know

who is funding them. The same Dick Armey network of shit-stirrers that is funding them, no creating them, here? Perhaps they are going Global? What these Global capitalists who fund orgs like these want to do is to dismantle all social programs. Fueling hatred for 'foreigners' who are 'lazy and taking advantage of the welfare state' is one weapon they always use. Right now they are putting Europe through 'austerity' programs with a lot of opposition from Europeans themselves. What better way to get support than to use xenophobia, to arouse anger at the foreigners who are 'coming here to take advantage of our generosity'. It's not new, they are doing it here.

The sad thing is that those who created these problems, the wealthy Globalists who gambled with our money, are actually the ones who have taken advantage of 'our generosity', in bailouts, in using public funds through privitization, and depriving their respective countries of the benefits, like jobs etc. At least now in Iceland they are beginning to prosecute some the ones actually responsible. I imagine the Corporate Thieves are getting nervous as ordinary people become more and more angry, so why not stir up anger at someone else and redirect the attention of the public elsewhere. It's not like they haven't successfully done so before.

[Bucky]

9. Scary dudes. But does anyone see the irony of wearing a ski mask & carrying a "ban the burka" sign?

<== I dress like this

[dana_b]

28. I noticed that too!

cowards. they are afraid of people who are just trying to run a business and live their lives in peace with their families? There is no Sharia Law in Britain. It's ridiculous and a front for bigotry. Just like the Tea Party.

BTW - I love your pic of MLK. :thumbsup:

[OneGrassRoot]

10. Oh, the irony of the hooded guy standing next to "ban the burka." n/t

[AspenRose]

31. GMTA

[OneGrassRoot]

34. Not so much in my case...

It took a solid 15 seconds for me to decipher "GMTA."

:rofl:

:hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Conservatives' EU alliance in turmoil as Michal Kaminski leaves 'far right' party

David Cameron's alliance in the European parliament is falling apart after the group's Polish leader left his own party because it was too rightwing and then faced calls from fellow members to step down.

Michał Kaminski, the Polish leader of the European Conservative and Reformists group, announced that he had left Poland's Law and Justice party, Cameron's main ally in Europe, because it had been taken over by extremists.

Fellow MEPs in the alliance have told the Guardian that Kaminski should step down as leader of the ECR because he no longer has a mandate to lead.

The developments are a major embarrassment for the prime minister and William Hague, the foreign secretary. They took the party into an alliance with the Law and Justice party in July 2009.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/22/conservatives-eu-alliance-michal-kaminski

The British Tories didn't like being allied in the European Parliament with mainstream centre-right parties such as Merkel's Christian Democrats or Sarkozy's UMP (yeah, both those do a bit of pandering to anti-immigration forces when they feel like it, but the problem for the Tories was that they both like the EU as a concept, whereas Tories, especially the grass-roots, would rather leave it and just have a free trade area). So they set up a new right-wing grouping, in which they would be top dog, and cast around for some allies from other countries (the EU parliament demands MEPs from a minimum number of countries to form an official grouping). The Poles they ended up with have been an embarrassment to the Tories ever since, and now their own leader has said they've become too far right, even for him.

From the Telegraph article:

"Radicals are taking over the party," he said. "I cannot accept that my party is being taken over by the far-Right, and being dominated by the far-Right. I don't like the direction Law and Justice is going so I'm going my own way now."
...
The Prime Minister's decision last year to leave the mainstream European People's Party to align with Law and Justice provoked controversy and led to the expulsion of a senior Tory MEP who accused the Poles of harbouring racists and anti-Semites.

The row is deeply embarrassing to Mr Cameron because if PIS were to leave the Conservative grouping it will fall apart but keeping the link with the Polish party is now even more sensitive now Mr Kaminiski has described it as "far-Right".

Edward McMillan-Scott, now a Liberal Democrat MEP after being kicked out of the Tories for his opposition to PIS, said: "I think the whole thing is unravelling. It again highlights Cameron's massive strategic error in abandoning the mainstream for a fragile alliance with extremists."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8147249/David-Camerons-Euro-alliance-in-turmoil.html

Yeah, their acronym in Polish is PIS. We need a smile this morning.

[Turborama]

16. I remember when the Tories did that. How much coverage was there in the British media at the time?

How much coverage is there currently on British TV of the stories you've posted? It's interesting to see that the Torygraph have written what could be described as a scathing report on it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. Very little coverage on TV, really

A bit in papers like The Guardian and Independent, and sometimes in the Telegraph too. Perhaps a little on the more 'in-depth' TV news programmes - Newsnight on the BBC, and Channel 4 news. But the main bulletins on the established broadcast channels - BBC1 and ITV - pretty much ignored it all, I think.

Yeah, the Torygraph seems to have a split personality on this - sometimes it'll seem to be standing up for tolerance, understanding and equality, and the next moment it's as reactionary as ever. I suppose it may just be saying it doesn't trust foreign bigots.

[sabrina 1]

71. Interesting. I hope that European countries do leave the EU.

Ireland has been destroyed since it joined and it was very reluctant to do so at first and one of the last to finally join.

My dad was so against Ireland joining and almost predicted what has happened.

Recently I read that Cameron? I think it was he, warned the leaders of France and other nations whose citizens are very upset over these austeriy programs, that they 'should ignore the people and just get things done'. This sparked outrage and calls by many people to get out of the EU as they were 'interfering with democracy'.

Europe has to decide if it wants to remain or not, but I see nothing good coming of that organization. Maybe I'm missing something.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. Ireland has benefited hugely from the EU

When it joined in 1973 (not 'one of the last to finally join'; it was one of the 2nd group, along with the UK and Denmark, after a referendum with 83% support, and first applied to join in 1961 - see http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/ireland_in_the_eu/index1_en.htm ), it was the poorest member, per capita. It has always got a net benefit from EU funds, and its economy has grown massively while being a member.

Ireland's current problems aren't because of the EU; they're because of property speculation, rather like the US's economic problems. The Irish government then decided it would guarantee non-Irish loans to its banks - which no other EU country has done. The Irish government is also insisting on keeping its low rates of corporation tax, despite needing more tax revenues, and despite some other EU countries advising it to raise them.

Cameron may have said that, I don't know; but I can't see that something the British PM says is "the EU interfering with democracy". Cameron is not "the EU". I think you may have mixed up 2 stories.

Overall, yes, I'd say you're missing a lot, when it comes to knowledge of the EU.

[sabrina 1]

114. Since I have family in Ireland and other parts of Europe,

I can say this, Ireland was far better off in important ways, before joining the EU. You are talking about money. Yes, like most countries there were poor people, there are still poor people there. What they lost was the most precious thing a country can lose, their Independence and Sovereignty. Most families in Ireland during the '70s, while not wealthy, were NOT poor. This current situation was predicted by more thoughtful, and less greedy people when Ireland was contemplating joining the EU. There is now a strong movement there to get out, not just because of the financial situation they are now in, but for other reasons.

The EU was a very, very bad idea unless you were a Global Capitalist. Any benefits seen by countries like Ireland, Iceland et al, were bound to be only temporary. Global Capitalists brought their boom and bust economy to countries that at least had some security, decent social safety nets and a sense that money isn't everything. I hope they learn from this. The inflation there was off the charts and some people profited greatly from it. But most did not.

Iceland is now prosecuting their corrupt bankers and leaders. They have kicked out their corrupt Capitalist government and are now introducing humane legislation regarding foreclosures. They want all debt forgiven. Make the Bankers pay, as we should be doing here.

Everyone I know in Ireland is angry that they ever became a part of the Global Greed Train.

[Scurrilous]

14. Mission Accomplished!

Somewhere a neo-con scumbag is laughing his arse off.

[geardaddy]

15. Dopey twats, them.

They're the same type who whinge about the Welsh Language Act in Wales.

[Turborama]

18. It's interesting to see that this is in The Top Tens' On The Fence with 55% recs / 45% unrecs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=greatest_threads&topten=1

Anyone out there who's unrec'ing like to explain why? :shrug:

[dipsydoodle]

20. They're bouncing to and fro like a yoyo.

:crazy:

[sabrina 1]

92. I'd like to know that also. Who would want to suppress a story

like this? At least it would be nice if they explained. Seems to me knowing these people are on the rise is a necessary piece of information and makes it more possible, the more who are aware of them, and their connections to the Teaparty here, the more chance there is of doing something about them.

[Bragi]

21. BBC Panorama feature: "British Schools, Islamic Rules"

The BBC Panorama feature "British Schools, Islamic Rules" aired earlier this week, and may help provide some context as to why many people in Europe who are not racists are nonetheless concerned about radical Islamicism in Europe.

The video is in two parts and runs 30 minutes in total:

(Part 1)-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQhki5RGLGs

(Part 2)-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHwF6pXqubU

There are lots of news stories about this particular BBC feature. To get the flavour of these articles, just search for "BBC Panorama" in google news.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. That's a very strange reaction to an OP about a racist organisation...

It's as though yr trying to justify the existance of groups like the EDL...

[Bragi]

104. The BBC feature is about Islamic extremists in England

I'm not sure why you would wonder why a BBC feature about radical Islamacism in England isn't relevant in a thread about one of the racist anti-Muslim groups that seem to be growing in England.

Personally, I reject the idea that anyone (in England or elsewhere) who expresses anxiety about extreme Islamicism is necessarily a closet racist or fascist. Lots of people who aren't racists, like the poster to whom I was responding, have real concerns about the kind of thing exposed in the BBC panorama feature.

My view is that the left needs to try to understand and address the concerns of reasonable people on this matter, rather than just attacking and trying to bully into silence anyone who expresses such concerns.

I am particularly concerned that the tendency of the left to attempt to shame and silence anyone expressing concerns about radical Islamacism may, in fact, be one of the things that is fueling the apparent growth of right-wing racist anti-Muslim groups in England and elsewhere.

[sabrina 1]

23. I wonder who is behind them?

These groups that 'spring up suddenly' like that generally are not grass roots groups. In whose interests is it to create that kind of tension?

The article says that some of them are the worst of the soccer fans. It seems odd that they would just transfer their behavior to another 'cause' like that.

No surprise to see that racists like that would join forces with the racists here.

Someone wants to keep this war on Muslims going.

[leftstreet]

27. +1

Very good point

The article says that some of them are the worst of the soccer fans. It seems odd that they would just transfer their behavior to another 'cause' like that.

Yes, odd indeed

[sabrina 1]

37. Civil unrest against the corrupt governments and their backers

is spreading in Europe, from Greece to Spain, France, Iceland, Ireland eg. The PTBs may need another scapegoat to focus people's anger at. Seems these types of groups always appear when there are hard times. Sort of an coincidence. But we do know that Dick Armey created our very own teabaggers, now according to this article, forming ties with these European thugs. Something stinks about it, imho.

[Initech]

24. Their right-wingers are no better then ours, it seems.

[Turborama]

25. The Extremist Defence League

The English Defence League likes to parrot its worn out mantra, “We are not the http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP and we are not nazis”, over and over again. Simon Cressy takes a closer look and finds a different story.

Is the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL racist? People have asked the question since the inception of the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL back in summer 2009. The http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL itself says on its website: “Some organisations and media reports have branded the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL as ‘racist’, ‘fascist’, ‘far-right’, or even ‘Zionist’. All of these accusations are flat out untrue. We take an actively anti-racist and anti-fascist stance.” As always the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL is being economical with the truth. There can be no argument over the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL’s racism as the organisation is full to the brim with known BNP members together with a number of hardcore nazis, who are using the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL as a vehicle to further their vehement xenophobia.


Tommy Robinson (Stephen Yaxley-Lennon) with Alan Spence (Inset) Spence
with http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP leader Nick Griffin

Despite being proscribed by Nick Griffin, the British National Party leader, http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP activists regularly attend http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL events.

The http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL leader parades around as Tommy Robinson and hid his identity behind a mask for over a year until Searchlight uncovered the fact that he is a former http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP member called Stephen Yaxley-Lennon who has served 12 months’ imprisonment for assaulting an off-duty police officer.

Robinson’s cousin Kevin Carroll is considered to be one of the founding fathers of the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL. In July he lost his appeal against his conviction for shouting abuse at Islamic protesters at the Luton homecoming parade for the Royal Anglian Regiment. It was the events in Luton in March 2009 that prompted the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL’s formation. He insists he is not racist, yet he revealed in a BBC documentary, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRYPpwPEN_s">Young, British and Angry, that he had signed the nomination papers in the 2007 Luton council elections for Robert Sherratt, a http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP candidate and activist in the tiny nazi November 9th Society. Carroll apparently was very keen to stand as a http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP candidate himself but was prevented by his partner’s intervention.

Other founding members of the http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered">EDL are also known to have been http://www.bnp.org.uk/">BNP members and activists.

Much much more: http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/The-Extremist-Defence-League

[dembotoz]

26. bad economy equals increase in groups like this.

seems to happen every time
scapegoats are a wonderful thing to take the pain of your distress and put it elsewhere.

[rug]

29. These are the EDL locations.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=106505025136548765274.000487ff74adb2e3e21d1

[dipsydoodle]

32. Did you notice

the absense of London.

[rug]

40. It looks like a yellow pin near London but who knows what the yellow pin means.

I cross-posted in the UK forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=191x32530

Doesn't seem to be mass support, but it doesn't do to understimate racists.

[dipsydoodle]

41. I didn't expand the map

looks like there is a London branch. They've got their own FB group too.

[T_i_B]

84. They're probably thinking of Cable Street

The far right in the UK never really recovered from the battle of Cable Street in 1936. They've been viewed as violent thugs by most people ever since.

[meow mix]

30. skinheads what is this 1986?

i thought that was all over =/

[dipsydoodle]

33. They're not Skins

Umfortunately they adopted Skin style. :(

[Catherina]

35. Rec'd. And from time to time, they make an appearance right here. n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

43. What's your "assimilation" program for "the current Muslim population actually living in Europe"?

BTW do you think the EDL who you're siding with are really LGBT friendly? They have strong and proven ties with the BNP (please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9614693&mesg_id=9617219">here) which has a long history of homophobia and sexism.

Please check out what this Facebook group has to say about them, too: http://lt-lt.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9380117258

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Turborama]

51. I was looking forward to replying and continuing the discussion until I got to this part...

"Islam is a misogynistic, homophobic, backwards and anti-human belief system"

...and then realized that there would be no point. It's very ironic that they are decrying bigotry whilst repeatedly espousing bigoted thoughts.

By their logic, all homophobes, rapists and people who's CULTURE includes arranged marriages should be deported.

The reply itself was replete with all manner of bigoted Islamophobia. One of the fundamental tenets of being a Liberal is to abhor bigotry, in whatever shape or form it comes in.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

57. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

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[Violet_Crumble]

54. Painting an entire group with the same broad brush is bigoted...

It's incredibly bigoted and ugly. It's that simple..

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Turborama]

65. You need to look up the meaning of bigotry....

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern American English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, various mental disorders, or religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry


Nope, no mention of politics there.

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

70. You didn't ask me. Politics & religion are two separate things so your conflation is an instant fail

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

77. When it is OK for me to generalize a group based on the traits shared by the majority?

My answer is that I don't like making generalizations outside of politics.

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

87. I'm not getting involved with your stereotypical non-sequiturs anymore. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

90. Because I don't like having discussions with people who openly admit they are Islamophobic?

Just like I don't like having discussions with people who admit they are anti-Semitic, homophobic, racist, sexist etc etc.

[Name removed]

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[Douglas Carpenter]

93. I know you may find this hard to believe and perhaps harder still to imagine

But homosexuality in much of the Islamic world is more much complicated that what most western people would imagine. I have lived in the Middle East for close to half my life and have known a lot of gay people - both expats and locals. It is certainly true that openly defining one's self as homosexual or gay in the the same way western gay people have done - but for the most part only in the past few decades is for the most part taboo. Remember that it was utterly taboo even in the 60's in most of the western world. When I grew up in rural western Pennsylvania - conservatives thoughts gay people should be locked up in prison while liberals thought they should be locked up in mental hospitals. Even the Mattachine Society - one of the first "gay rights organizations" openly declared homosexuality to be an illness and their goal was based on winning societies compassion and understanding.

In much of the Islamic world, following the old cliche, "In the West one can talk about anything they want as long as they don't actually do it. But in the East one can do anything they want as long as they don't talk about it." - there is and has been for centuries a kind of benign acceptance of homosexuality - but admittedly little acceptance of openly defining oneself as such. Only in major urban centers and among the upper classes will one likely find a western style gay subculture.

Undoubtedly getting married and having children is viewed as it is in Hindu culture and frankly most old cultures as something everyone should do and there is no doubt that there is a great deal of social pressure to follow that path. But within that cultural context, homosexual relationships are so common in much of the Islamic world that it barely raises an eyebrow - whether transient or long term; frivolous or deep, caring and loving -all going on within an "everybody knows" and "nobody knows" reality.

This obviously would not be acceptable by modern western standards - but if one compared this approach to the way most gay western people lived only a few decades ago - it is almost certainly far less oppressive.

So basically, yes most Middle Eastern people who are gay will probably never openly acknowledge it to the world and perhaps not even to themselves. But if they stay within local social mores and customs they will probably live a less alienated life than what many western gay people experience while having the relationships of their choice benignly accepted.

If you talk with gay people who have spent significant amounts of time in the Middle East, I believe that most would agree with what I am saying.

[IDHow]

99. It's not hard to understand

if we realize that any highly reactionary religious society is also highly hypocritical. Homosexuality n the Middle East is of course highly correlated with the imprisonment of women, as the control of their sexuality is extremely important. The iron walls that are raised between opposite sexes in the Middle East causes homosexual activities to be looked at with a largely blind eye.

[Douglas Carpenter]

109. you are looking at this matter with a judgmental attitude that simply does not at all correspond

with the world of reality about societies that you do not know anything about. There are Hundred of millions of people who comprise of many social orders and different cultures and societies simply cannot be reduced to banal racist stereotypes. Such sweeping generalizations are no more reasonable that proclaiming that the blacks of Africa are violent by nature or that Jews are crafty businessmen who cannot be trusted or any other sweeping negative generalization. The world of Western Pennsylvania I grew up in the 1960's was certainly more oppressive toward gay people than most of the Middle East - It was extremely sexist and racist as well. But thing have changed significantly there. The Middle East is far, far from stagnant. Things change over time and frankly a lot more rapidly then they do in the Western world.

[sabrina 1]

94. I don't think it's OK at any point to generalize, NEGATIVELY

based on the 'traits' shared by a majority of the people.

In this country a majority of the people are White Christians. Some of them are very intolerant of people who are not the 'same' as they are. They can have that bigoted opinion, so long as they keep to themselves and do not act on it. We don't throw them out of the country because of their beliefs. We MIGHT want to throw them out if they became violent against those who are different to them.

Muslims, religious Muslims and Catholics and several other Christian religions, are also homophobic. Many of the believe that being Gay is a sin. Few are in favor of throwing them out of the country or of any violence towards them.

Those Muslims were expressing their beliefs about homosexuality. They are entitled to those beliefs so long as they do not become violent over it.

How are those Muslims different from say, Catholics who if you got 500 of them to answer the same question, might answer unanimously the same way those Muslims did.

[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

96. How the fuck do you know what a group of Catholics would say?

You don't. You want to see homophobia? Get some devout Catholics together and you'll find a bunch in that group. But of course that doesn't interest you because they're not Muslims...

btw, someone who proudly announces that they're Islamophobic really shouldn't be so hypocritical as to then turn round and complain about discrimination aimed at what they claim is their group...

[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

98. No, you've missed the point by a mile...

You don't know what a group of Catholics would say, though I notice you of course insisted that they wouldn't think the same as those nasty evil Muslims would. That's what I was pointing out so I've got no idea why yr going on about polling...

[Name removed]

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[Bragi]

113. Discussing a posting that was deleted

I agree with your point that anti-gay Muslims "are entitled to those beliefs so long as they do not become violent over it."

I know, however, that there are more than a few countries that adhere to Islamic law and which practice terrible violence against gay people.

As in:

Homosexual relations are a crime and face punishment in some Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia, or Islamic Republics such as Iran. The death penalty is currently in place in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Mauritania, northern Nigeria, Sudan, and Yemen.<31><32> It formerly carried the death penalty in Afghanistan under the Taliban, but subsequently has changed from a capital crime to one that is punished with fines and a prison sentence.

The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is unclear. In many Muslim nations, such as Bahrain, Qatar, Algeria and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time, fines, or corporal punishment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Islam

Personally, I find religious-based, state-imposed intolerance and violence against gay people reprehensible. You?

[sabrina 1]

116. Yes, I am aware of that and hope that one day those countries

will have better more enlightened governments. We used to burn people as witches eg, not all that long ago.

Just as we despise our radical, religious extremists who call for the killing of abortion doctors eg, even people who do not believe in abortion, do not approve of murdering doctors, many Muslims feel the same way about the extremists in their countries. I have Muslim friends in Jordan and the UAE eg, and those women are just as frustrated with their extreme religious 'leaders' as we are here.

The way to help end extremism is for the West to stop killing people in oil producing or strategically placed countries for our 'national interests'. If we had friendly relations with these countries, encouraged democratic leaders to succeed rather than assassination them and replacing them with brutal dictators, extremists would shrink into the background and rarely be heard from.

But we continually give credibility to those extremists and a threatened country will be more likely to listen to those voices than one that is not threatened. We are actually stopping any progress by our policies. Can Americans put themselves in the place of the people we invade, kill and torture and imprison? What would WE do if the situation were reversed? I think in such a situation our extremely religious voices would gain far more prominence than they have now as people tend to cling to religion far more when they are in danger.

[Bragi]

44. Thanks for your candor on this

It takes courage these days to admit to any misgivings about the impact of radical Islam in European countries with large Muslim immigrant populations.

I find that, all too often, anyone who expresses any concern at all about this is branded neo-nazi anti-immigrant racist. However, I think there are issues like those you raise that merit consideration and discussion among well-intentioned people.

[Turborama]

45. Maybe you'd like to have a go at answering my question, then?

And could you be more specific about "the impact of radical Islam in European countries with large Muslim immigrant populations", please? BTW I already know about the official Saudi national curriculum books that were provided by the Saudis to some private weekend schools and think that Michael Gove should make sure they are immediately eradicated. They can do that in England, not so sure if the 1st Amendment allows the government in the US to, though.

Like you, I have concerns about Wahhabism spreading outside of Saudi Arabia, but the followers of that interpretation of Islam are only a tiny minority of the 1,500,000,000 Muslims who live around the world.


Also, has anyone on DU called you an "neo-nazi anti-immigrant racist"? If so, where?

[Bragi]

105. You ask:

"Maybe you'd like to have a go at answering my question, then?"

What question is that?

You then ask:

"And could you be more specific about "the impact of radical Islam in European countries with large Muslim immigrant populations", please?"

My answer is: That's like asking "Could you be more specific about the impact of social and economic inequality in the U.S?" Do you have a specific matter you'd like to raise regarding the impact of radical Islam in Europe?

Finally, you ask:

Also, has anyone on DU called you an "neo-nazi anti-immigrant racist"? If so, where?

I didn't say that anyone had done so. People are usually more subtle on this, in a way that is not at all dissimilar to what the right do whenever anyone criticizes Israel.

Critics of Israeli policy, as you know, are usually given an opportunity to "be educated" by right-wing people, but if they persist in criticizing Israel after being "educated", they are then branded as "antisemitic" racists.

As you also know, my view is that I think the left is too quick to brand as a racist Islamaphobe anyone who expresses any anxieties whatsoever about the social impact of radical Islamacists in western countries that are experiencing high levels of Muslim immigration.

[Turborama]

106. It was a question that was aimed at pizza boy in the deleted post you liked the "candour" of

What's your "assimilation" program for "the current Muslim population actually living in Europe"?

My other question: And could you be more specific about "the impact of radical Islam in European countries with large Muslim immigrant populations", please?

Was aimed at this statement:

It takes courage these days to admit to any misgivings about the impact of radical Islam in European countries with large Muslim immigrant populations.

Put another way, "You have misgivings about what impact in particular?" is actually quite a valid question.

Finally, you ask:

Also, has anyone on DU called you an "neo-nazi anti-immigrant racist"? If so, where?

I didn't say that anyone had done so. People are usually more subtle on this, in a way that is not at all dissimilar to what the right do whenever anyone criticizes Israel.

Critics of Israeli policy, as you know, are usually given an opportunity to "be educated" by right-wing people, but if they persist in criticizing Israel after being "educated", they are then branded as "antisemitic" racists.

As you also know, my view is that I think the left is too quick to brand as a racist Islamaphobe anyone who expresses any anxieties whatsoever about the social impact of radical Islamacists in western countries that are experiencing high levels of Muslim immigration.

What you previously said was: I find that, all too often, anyone who expresses any concern at all about this is branded neo-nazi anti-immigrant racist. However, I think there are issues like those you raise that merit consideration and discussion among well-intentioned people.

You didn't say anyone had done so but you implied that it's an all too common problem and that you were a victim of it. I just wanted to make sure that you weren't talking about your experiences here.

And now you bring in a passive aggressive analogy with how anti-Semites are treated by the "right". If you want to express concerns about the "impact" you have to describe what that "impact of radical Islamacists in western countries that are experiencing high levels of Muslim immigration" is, otherwise you're being too vague and that vagueness could be interpreted as an irrational fear of Muslims and Islam, which is the textbook definition of Islamophobia.

ETA: Regarding "education", I have previously corrected your misinformed comments (with evidence to the contrary and links) but, instead of admitting you were wrong, you appear to cut and run whenever that has happened. BTW If you had stuck around I wouldn't have ended up calling you a "neo-nazi anti-imigrant racist", I never call anyone that when discussing this topic.

[Bragi]

107. Ah, I think get it now

I hadn't noticed till you pointed it out that apparently every posting in this thread by the person who expressed their concerns yesterday "with candor" has now been deleted.

Right.

And now you post something implying that my support for people expressing their concerns is too vague, and means that I therefore fit some "textbook definition of Islamophobia."

So I presume that, if I decline now to be more specific about such concerns, you will then, what? Claim that I am Islamaphobic, and have my postings deleted?

And if I am specific, and identify some concerns that some people in Europe have about radical Islamacism, then you will, what? Deny that these concerns have any basis, claim that I am Islamaphobic, and have my postings deleted?

This reminds me of the old-time water test for witchcraft: if the accused survives, then that proves she is a witch, and must be killed.

[Turborama]

108. No, wrong.

You were being vague.

I asked you to elaborate.

It's called having an open debate.

If anyone makes a vague statement they should be able to back it up with details, no?

If anyone makes Islamophobic statements I will directly call them out as an Islamophobe, I make no bones about that. If you or anyone else posts Islamophobic comments it's up to the moderators and/or admin whether your posts are deleted, not me.

And now you're accusing me of persecuting you like a witch? :rofl:

Look, it's quite simple. If you are going to make broad-brush claims about any group of people you should be able to back them up when asked. If you can't back them up, don't make broad-brush claims.

[Bragi]

110. You wrote: "It's called having an open debate."

:rofl:

I'd be more convinced of your interest in open discussion if I didn't notice the apparent strong correlation between your participation in a discussion thread, and the number of deleted postings in it.

[Turborama]

111. I didn't make those deletions.

The moderators and/or admin made a decision about the quality of that posters contributions. That poster started off proudly admitting they are an Islamophobe. I got the definition out for them just to make sure they knew what they meant when they said that. Even so, I still carried on discussing with them at length, as you can see.

It's all about choices. If you're worried you might post something that would get deleted, check the rules. If you think you'll be OK, go for it. If you think you can't control yourself and might break some of those rules, don't post it. If they did get deleted it wouldn't be my fault.

If you have any questions about how the moderation and administration of DU is conducted, you can take them to...

Ask the Administrators: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=437

[Turborama]

118. I'm going to ask again: You have misgivings about what "impact" or "impacts" in particular? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

50. I'm sorry, but they were talking about ALL Muslims and Islam...

And anyone who claims that radical Islam = mainstream Islam isn't being courageous, well-intentioned, or showing candor - it's ugly and intolerant and the stuff that the Right Wing thrive on. Do you wonder why someone who says they're opposed to immigration by anyone in a specific ethnic group would be called anti-immigrant or be seen to be racist or bigoted? I certaintly can...

[Name removed]

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[Violet_Crumble]

55. I'm not familiar with what the main groups are in the UK and don't trust what you say...

You appear to have major issues with Muslims. Anyway, how does one person saying something ugly justify the ugliness of what you've posted? All extremism and bigotry is bad, not just what you pick and choose...

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

66. Everything in your posts that got deleted were a good example.

I have a copy of them but reposting them will break the rules.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[Turborama]

72. It was ugly and broke the rules. If you think breaking the rules isn't wrong maybe you should go

to a forum where they allow that sort of ugliness?

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

79. Why should I bother? n/t

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

82. Judging by the way you have been communicating your deep hatred? No. n/t

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

60. Name, quote and link, please.

Thanks in advance.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Turborama]

64. The leader of the main Muslim group in Britain did not say that homosexuals should be executed.

Last Updated: Tuesday, 3 January 2006, 22:26 GMT

A British Muslim leader has told the BBC he believes homosexuality is "not acceptable" and denounced new same-sex civil partnerships as "harmful".

Head of the Muslim Council of Britain Sir Iqbal Sacranie said introducing the partnerships did "not augur well" for building the foundations of society.

Nevertheless, he told BBC Radio 4's PM programme, everyone should be tolerant.

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4579146.stm

BTW he stopped being the General Secretary of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) in June 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iqbal_Sacranie

As for what that Imam said. There are probably a few pastors in the States who say the same thing. Does that mean that all Christians in America believe that?

[Name removed]

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[Turborama]

73. OK you hate all Muslims because 500 British Muslims (out of 1.5 Billion globally) don't like you

We get it.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Ah the 1930s come to mind

[Jakes Progress]

42. Bigots and Intolerance on both sides will make it happen. nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

46. kick and recommend!! VERY IMPORTANT!!!

[MilesColtrane]

58. Alan Moore (author of 'V For Vendetta') was prescient.

Take a look at the symbols of the fictional right wing Norsefire party he created 28 years ago.



And now the real life English Defense League fascists...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/SuyzJRzKX4I/AAAAAAAAJak/sAUhwvk4Z9k/s1600/Members%2Bof%2Bthe%2BEnglish%2BDefence%2BLeague%2Bdemonstrate%2Bin%2BLeeds%2Btown%2Bcentre%2Bon%2BOctober%2B31,%2B2009.jpg

Smart chap, that Moore.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[T_i_B]

86. Er, that's the English national flag.

The English national flag is a red cross. Go and do some proper research before posting.

[deaniac21]

115. Flag of St. George became England's flag in 1278

Duh....

[Violet_Crumble]

59. They're modern-day Brownshirts...

Is anyone else seeing the irony of the 'ban the burqa' signs being wielded by thugs wearing balaclavas?

[pinboy3niner]

88. K&R

:kick:

[MrScorpio]

101. Right wing extremism and intolerance go hand in hand

We all still have a long way to go

[HipChick]

102. This isn't new...I grew up near Luton

Back then, the little feckers called themseleves the National Front and lived on the dole(welfare)..now they have the internet to help rally their cause - the folk that they used to harass are first or second generation British Citizens. Imagine been told to get out of your country that you were born in, this is the legacy that Enoch Powell left in his Rivers of Blood speech

[lunatica]

112. I see a lot of cowards hiding behind masks, not one of them is a Muslim

The photographs of the Muslims are about as peaceful as they can be. No masks and no threat.