Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Why I find the term pink tutu so damn offensive

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:36 PM
Original message
Why I find the term pink tutu so damn offensive
There are alot of stereotypes about gays. We are called flighty, into the arts, often too into shallowness and prettyness. We aren't into sports. We are into musicals. And on and on. To be honest. Like all gays I meet some of the stereotypes and don't meet others. But the one stereotype that really aggrivates me is that we lack courage. I don't know of any openly gay person who lacks courage. Try being an openly gay kid in an east Texas high school. How about a gay soldier under DADT. Maybe you could try being an openly gay cop, or school teacher. The fact is it takes courage to be us. If we are effiminate, aka pink tutu, it takes even more courage. When you call people who you percieve as cowards, pink tutu, you are saying, no matter how much you deny it, that gays, and especially effimate gays, are cowards. We have a lot of faults, cowardice, isn't one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. There is often a connection between insults and ideology
People will use those they feel are effective without any consideration for this, and it's sad to see it from Moore, from DU, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Case in point, my rec has disappeared into the aether
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Mine disappeared too. :( K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I rec'd
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. K & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Here is one. K & R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
98. Did Michael Moore
make a disparaging remark about women or minorities?

I'd be very disappointed (and surprised) if this were the case. :-(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #98
150. He made one about Obama.
"Take off the pink tutu," he said on Maher. Meaning, I guess, fight back. There are probably a dozen other ways he could have made his point without this stereotype.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #150
183. True....
I like MM...This is a rare gaffe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Philosopher Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Right on
Some people want to be bigots, but they don't want to be called out on it. No one wants to be the bad guy, but they want to do bad guy things.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Not all want to be bigots--some see a lack of belligerence as equivocation and weakness
The two can certainly go together, but they aren't the same thing. You don't need to call people names that draw their power from sexism/racism/whatever to hold a belief strongly. Bernie Sanders doesn't need to say "pink tutu" to stand up for us, and neither does Moore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
5. Most insults originate from some stereotype. Many with
references to anything female. "Life's a bitch", "what a pussy", In the UK men are called "cunts" as a way to demean them. Christ, the latest "man up" put down bugs the hell out of me. I would have never thought "pink tu-tu" was a reference to gays until I saw it here. I thought it was another insult based on femininity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Its both
Pink is a girls color and obviously girls are weak. Almost all slurs used against gay males are sexist too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
59. because the biggest insult to a "man" is to equate him with a "girl".
because being female is somehow "less than" being a man - therefore being a gay man is to be like a "girl" so that's the insult...)

I finally figured out why men have problem with ballet - it's not the tight pants (look at football and wrestlers), it's the fact that WOMEN are featured. That men - are supporting partners. Oh they get their solos, but the "prima ballerinas" are WOMEN and (some) men can't bear a man to play second fiddle to any woman for any reason. It makes him "less manly" to not be the "dominant one".

Of course real men are never threatened by women, only men who have self-esteem issues.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #59
141. I agree. In fact I often think that the deeply homophobic types
are typically afraid they will be hit on by every man (which is a rather large and not necessarily logical decision based on their own insecure narcissism), but worse that THEY will be treated the way that they treat women.

It's quite typical for total misogynists to be total homophobes and vice versa, and I think they are very much related as you pointed out, and are based on insecurity among other things.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
97. Absolutely...and it's too bad
that the gay community seems to defend itself better than women, even so-called "progressive" women do.

As a long time feminists, I'm disgusted at the number of unthinking gender slurs I often see here from women. ;(


Talk about charity beginning at home...duh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
115. that's what I thought too, that it was a slam at women being weak, not gays
and what is infuriating is that it is a meme created by and used by Democrats, usually the most "progressive" ones. If the GOP did that, we'd be howling.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DawgHouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #115
175. This is the way that I took the remark when I heard it as well.
I discussed it with my son today (25) and asked him, "If someone told you to take off your pink tutu, what do you think they mean?" He said, "It means stop acting like a girl." He elaborated that he knows it's meant to be an insult but it falls flat with him because he doesn't think being equated as female is an insult. But he is firm that the intent behind it when someone says it is, "You are acting girly."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #115
213. Which is also weird because MM has a wife and a daughter ....
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 07:12 PM by defendandprotect
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlancheSplanchnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
182. me too. I thought it was a misogyny-based remark.
Of course, sexism is so linked with homophobia, specifically homophobia against gay MALES. As Carl Paladino (Teathug failed candidate for Governor, NY) demonstrated for us, lesbians are "awesome". :puke:





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. k&r and why I find the term so damn offensive
There are a lot of stereotypes about women. We are called flighty, often too into shallowness and pettiness. We aren't into sports. We do not argue but nag, or bitch. If we are upset, we are hysterical. Like all women, I meet some of the stereotypes and don't meet others. But the one stereotype that really aggrevates me is that we are lesser than those with xy chromosomes, simply because of our sex.

When you call people you perceive as cowards, pink tutu, you are saying, no matter how you deny it, that women are lesser beings and that men called this are lesser beings.

I am not mocking you dsc, but you stated it so well I wanted to use your format. Calling someone a woman as an insult must go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thank you, you said it much better than I. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
145. +1
Just this weekend I overheard a guy call his friend a "pussy" as an insult. I know darned well what it really means. He was demeaning him by calling him a woman as if that was something to be ashamed of. I agree. It must go!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. To me, there is none other more courageous than gay men and women
especially in the United States.

Anyone attributing cowardice to any gay or lesbian, needs their fucking head examined.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
180. Well said..
I am sometimes still astonished at the outright bigotry shown by some people right here in the U.S. I would think we would be well beyond that by now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
13. In the hospital, years and years ago,
I heard my friend, who was viisting, say, "There goes a really, really tough guy."

Why? "In this neighbourhood, a black guy wearing a white satin poet shirt like yours, skin tight peg-leg black trews, over the knee black leather boots, scarf and a gold hoop earring? He is not only tough, but courageous to boot."

(by the way, since I wore a pink tutu often during the first 21 years of my life, it's not something I think of in connection with homosexuals.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BolivarianHero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Mike Malloy uses (used?) the term "pink tutu Democrats"
Pretty sure he's not a bigot.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Maybe not, but why is "pink tutu" insulting?
Some people reach into a grab-bag of insults because they equate doing so with toughness. Every once in a while they will come up with one that derives all its power from sexism or other forms of bigotry. Their intention isn't to be bigoted, but it's fairly silly to argue that "pink tutu" has no sexist or homophobic elements to it as an insult.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
63. exactly , well said - if weren't insult why would they say it in the context they do
The fact that some like the people that use it, doesn't make it right or reasonable.

In addition, in many cases, they are talking heads, bloggers, or pundits who do not have the responsibility of governing. They don't have to make any compromises - but elected officials have to do so - or they would get nothing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Many people use words rooted in homophobia not knowing it
Homophobia is so ingrained into our culture people, even the well meaning, still use hateful words and don't realize it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
95. But lots of "homophobia" is rooted in mysogyny...and
there are many "progressive" men" who are unconcious (and uncaring?)about THAT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #95
176. Absolutely
Many progressives are sexist and homophobic.

By the way why the quoats around homophobia? Usually that's done to imply it's not real...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #176
184. That was a just a mistake..
made by someone who was still sleepy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
132. Ignorance is not always steeped in bigotry.
Sometimes people just don't think...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
panader0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm into the arts and sports
What am I?
K&R for making a good point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
18. The worst thing
a man can be called is anything to do with a girl/woman. I guess that's why it bothers you.

I wish I could dress up as a man....I could get a job and be treated with more respect than I am today.

I may just get a beard and baseball cap to wear in the car.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
19. Highly recommended. And as just one example of refuting the whole "gays are cowards" crap....
Here you go. One of the bravest men I've ever read about. A hero:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bingham
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. I don't think this is the primary problem
and i don't know how you are going to combat the stereotype that being manly equals being tough and strong --i would argue it's much more effective to fight discrimination head-on rather than arguing about something like this.

my two cents.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Why not do both?
We're not in some either/or dilemma here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. futility and time
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. "I don't think this is the primary problem..."
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 06:12 PM by jpgray
"and i don't know how you are going to combat the stereotype that being intelligent and hard-working equals being white --i would argue it's much more effective to fight discrimination head-on rather than arguing about something like this.

"my two cents."

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I disagree - look at the gay teen suicides
their lives are not ending in a vacuum - words do have power and meaning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. you arent the one for a lifetime being told weak, timid, hysterical,
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 06:15 PM by seabeyond
basically... pathetical, at every turn, since birth, are you?

maybe you will never understand why it matters

i was actually raised in a time i thought i was less than man. i didnt have a problem with it. was just a known fact. a reality. you know.... you had a girl? ah, sorry. when are you going to try again? until a young adult and i was saying wtf???

that type of bigotry from the very beginning, you are less. conditioning in a society as a whole. words matter. i see it now, with raising my boys.

maybe that is what it takes to understand why, this may be relevant
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
47. Someone likely thought that about Little Rock schools once, too.
Words matter. A lot. When's the last time you heard the n-word in reasonably polite company?

My parents absolutely forbade me to use it even while my uncle and some of my friends' parents freely used it (and my dad objected strenuously to his brother when he used it). Soon, my uncle did not use it in our presence.

Futility? REALLY?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. trying to change the stereotype that "manly" = tough?
that's not quite the same as getting people to stop saying the n-word.

but you can focus on that --more power to you.

i'd just prefer both women and GLBT community to be thought of as equals and starting with equality under the law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
77. again, it;s not an either or situation at all, they should go hand in hand
ending the denigration of gay men and of all women is nothing to sniff dismissively at.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
66. I had some racist uncles
but even they didn't use the n word. They may as well have given their attitudes but even they knew that was a bridge too far for polite company.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #20
84. You either fight prejudices everywhere you find it or you leave an opening
for it to flourish where you are conceding that it is acceptable.

Anyplace you remain silent, where you accept that examples of prejudice aren't worth fighting, that is where bigots will concentrate their efforts, because you gave them permission.

And then you become THEIR ally instead of ours because they will recruit you to shut us down when we try to fight them. They will get you to tell us over and over that we "are being petty." We "are being hostile." We "are offending potential allies." Because you will already be on record saying that in this one area prejudice isn't important enough to fight and shouldn't be fought.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. I never even thought of that.
I was offended by their anger at Michael Moore. That is because I learned the expression "pink tutu" on this board. People here used to say it about Daschle all the time. But now all of a sudden we can't use the expression? Double standard.

BTW, your post is very well written. I agree with you about how much strength and courage it takes to be openly gay. But who says that people in the arts are weak? Ballet dancers, male and female, are strong athletes. And it takes strength and courage to be a woman in today's world. Men aren't the only strong ones.

There are so many types of strength and courage that macho men don't have a monopoly on anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. that is what bothers me so. this illusion only manly men are tough and strong when courage comes in
all forms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. +
"girly" as an insult: it simply stinks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pinboy3niner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
82. Laila Ali called. She has a pink tutu AND boxing gloves...
When she sees Moore, it won't be the tutu she'll be wearing...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
57. It also takes strength and courage to be willing to listen to others about what is offensive to them
and to be willing to care enough to change your habits.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #57
76. AMEN. Very succinctly--and beautifully simply--said. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #57
85. Boiled down to the very essential point. Well said!
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
148. Didn't Bartcop initiate this? I've called him on it for YEARS
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
murielm99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #148
170. I think you are right.
I still learned it here, and saw it here first. And the people who insulted me for my reply to this thread have their own problems with stereotypes and anger. They need to get a grip.

I am not the devil for trying to track down the origins of a slur, for making observations about it and for noticing that some of my fellow DUers were very free about using the term.

I also remember a time here when quite a few here were calling Ann Coulter a c*nt. I am glad that word was banned from the discourse here. Annie is pretty much irrelevant these days. But calling her a sexist name was never right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz cook Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #148
224. Bart also said "Just list the facts"
A phrase that Bill Maher used in the same episode.

Too bad Bartcop's fame hasn't caught up with his influence.

I must say that anger over pink tutus might be better aimed at the spineless lick spittle democrats that the phrase was aimed at.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
26. I took it to mean women are cowards.
;) Either way, point taken.

Here's part of what troubles Moore, I think.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tax_cuts

Note how the headline makes R's appear "tough" ie. strong and principled? That's what we need. Strength.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. People whose feet look like this from their art and livelihood are tough as nails and no cowards.
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 06:11 PM by Brickbat
And fuck anyone else who says otherwise.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. +1
how I remember those days, my hips are still reminding me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. recommend
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. I took it to mean Obama was acting like a woman ballerina
Ballerinas are serious, serious athletes.

Most professional sports players don't work that hard. :P

Insulting someone by calling them gay is bad, yes, but also insulting someone by calling them a woman is disgustingly sexist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Roon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I know an old man who used to be a denver bronco
so he said..anyway, he claimed that the team used to practice ballet as part of their conditioning.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
126. There were loads of soccer player in my college ballet class because their
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 10:35 AM by 1monster
coaches insisted that they take ballet to make them better players.

Ballet ain'f for sissies. (oops! I should not have used that word. Let me rephrase.) Ballet ain't for 'fraidy cats. (Or is that being insulting to cats?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. that was the stereotype I witnessed, not the anti-gay stereotype in this instance
but it's Bill Maher. if i focused on that part of what he's saying i'd be totally missing the point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
86. Bill Maher is often very incredibly sexist and homophobic.
Yes, his message can easily get lost because of all that prejudice he throws around.

It's a damned shame that only people who are deaf to the sexism and homophobia can really appreciate the political wisdom he often has to offer.

It would be nice if he could offer that little bit of wisdom without being so offensive to women and the LGBTQI community. It would be nice if he didn't have to share bits of that wisdom inside of jokes targeting and humiliating us for a quick laugh. x(

It shows that he seriously thinks of "normal people" as "white men with money," like himself, and everyone else is a sub-group or extra little side-community of "other people" that are tagging along with white men for the ride.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. Maher's messaging has base, RW tendencies
He calls himself libertarian. He should have stopped at liberteen. Get a buzz in the grotto then shut up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #86
96. You are correct about Maher...
I like his wit, but his shitty disregard toward everyone but his own kind -- "white men with money" -- keeps me out of his fan club.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #86
143. Hold on, it wasn't Bill Maher that said it...it was Michael Moore
and what he said was take off the pink tutu and put on the boxing gloves.

which i think can mean stop dancing around and start fighting --which is not a stereotype.

but ymmv.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #143
153. My post was speaking in general about Bill Maher's commentary
not about any one comment in particular, and certainly not about the pink tutu comment specifically.

Though, regarding that Pink Tutu comment, I would say that it means far more than stop dancing and start fighting. It says, or at least implies, "stop dancing around like a weak effeminate girly man and start fighting like a real man."

There sure as hell is a lot of stereotyping going on in that.

The choice of Tutu clearing implies not just a dancer, but the most effeminate possible type of dancer. You're not moshing. You're not break dancing. or any other dance that might be tough or athletic. You're not on a dance floor in a club. You're not doing ball-room dancing, or salsa, or merengue, or any other kind of dance that might be sexy. You're not even doing disco, or any of the fad dances that each had their own song in the 50s, (everybody do the mashed potato, do the fish, blah blah blah...) By choosing the tutu he's saying that the dancer is doing Ballet, that graceful dance that emphasizes the appearance of grace above all else. Every movement is supposed to appear smooth and almost effortless. The men are in leotards and WOMEN IN TUTUs.

So this is definitely a slur. Appearing almost effortless could very easily mean exerting no effort. Grace pretty much the opposite of rugged and tough. Saying someone is dressed like a women is classic a sexist slur used to say that someone acts like a woman, is weak either physically or mentally, is all appearance with no substance, or is not very tough.

In Boxing, you still sort of dance around a lot. But it is called "foot work" and it is an important part of defending yourself and getting yourself in position to strike effectively. It's a masculine and acceptable kind of dancing because it's part of a fighting sport. You certainly don't do it in a tutu.

Boxers are graceful too, but their grace is in combat. Their grace is secondary to wining. The grace is secondary to winning. Where in Ballet the grace is the primary purpose. That certainly isn't lost in this comparison. The implication is that one should stop paying attention to how you look (like a woman) and pay attention to winning (like a man).

So, you can try to re-interpret the statement to take out the stereotypes. But the fact remains that it was delivered in a way that was loaded with stereotypes and slurs. It was both sexist and homophobic.

I would have expected better from Michael Moore, but I guess I expected too much. I didn't realize he was prone to using slurs to make his points. Now I know.

But I already knew that Bill Maher would not comment on the slurs, or even notice them, because he frequently uses them himself. His comedy is loaded with sexist and homophobic slurs on a regular basis. That was the point of my post. I'm sorry you didn't get that point.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #86
196. I was one of the people that complained about "Femi-Nazis", then...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 05:40 PM by Odin2005
...my friend was raped. That really turned me around completely, only after that did I come to learn how pervasive the sexism and misogyny is.

I suspect Maher is like the Earlier me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #196
202. I remember you from before. And I remember when you posted
about what happened. :(

The change in the way you post was an interesting evolution to watch. You changed very dramatically, pretty quickly. Your depth on issues involving women and sexism and prejudice has been interesting to see.

I'm sorry for the cause of it. Your growth has been appreciated. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #202
203. Thanks!
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
147. Thank you. /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
178. so did i.
the image i got was a frilly girl--he was acting like a girl.

which i found offensive as hell. (being a girl and all i guess)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. I get your point but to be honest when I hear that I think "little girl ballerina"
like "you fight like a lttle girl"
I never take it to mean "you are acting gay".

Then again I never met a gay coward (you have to be tough to be different in my blue collar city) so perhaps I think differently than your average American.

Feeling a little confused right now, I will pay more attention when I hear that next time. I don't much care for slurs on subgroups or the use of them as insults, next time it won't go over my head quite so easily.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. i waited for someone to comment. no one has. sexist... is goes over your head, but now homophobic
slur, you will be more aware.

interesting
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. I didn't know I was all that, I guess children beat up grown men all the time and are tough
Wow a sexist homophobe, thanks for calling me that!!
I feel the love.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. from the time we are little up to our grown men, we use relating all male to girl when we want to
humiliate the male. i KNOW this is not a new concept to you. but evidently it is one you allow to "go over your head" repeatedly. at least you are consistent. at least, you will be a little more aware with gays.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #54
100. Yes...It seems women are always
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 08:13 AM by whathehell
the LAST to be considered...and it sucks.

John Lennon said it: "Women is the Nigger of the World".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
64. so it's okay to insult someone by calling them a girl, though?
I was a very very small little girl, but I could - and did - kick ass on a regular basis. (I used to protect other kids from bullies.)

My niece was a jr olympic karate gold medalist in fighting at 9. She laid out one of her big brothers "friends" with one punch (he was 16 or 17 at the time) who tried to mess with her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. I didn't mean to insult anybody and now I am a horrible human being
I think I should just stop posting because obviously I will be considered an asshole no matter what I do.
If you knew me you wouldn't hate me tho, believe it or not.

I hang out with pagans and artists and there are few that fit the typical mold, they think the opposite of what you do, but what do they know since few of them are straight males and I obviously have fooled them all.

After the beatings I got from the DLC last night and the names I'm being called here I think it best to step away from this site like permanently so as not to upset so many people.

peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #81
157. Naw. This stuff gets nuts..
:hug: from a fellow long time DU'er too.

Cheers
SAndy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. I will say that certainly there is a huge sexist component here
as in many anti gay stereotypes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
foxfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Much of homophobia is rooted in misogyny.
If one means to describe something (or someone) as weak, then one should use the word "weak." Weakness, like strength, comes in all flavors.

K&R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. exactly! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
197. IMO most stereotypes of gays are misogynistic projections...
...of "feminine" gender roles. hence all the jokes about, say, getting a gay guy to decorate your home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
37. Recommended. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
41. in the same show he bemoaned that we haven't passed DADT repeal despite 70% support for doing so
I don't think this is the problem...I understand if people think I'm minimizing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. I just countered your unrec
Have a swell day. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. WTF was his problem? Note, I use past tense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. Well spoken (it's also insulting to women, as many slurs for gay are) and I nullified
another unrec.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
48. So "pink tutu" is used as a noun?
I honestly didn't know that. In fact, up until two days ago I didn't know that the phrase "pink tutu" was a slur. I found it in a locking message from a mod and my first reaction was :wtf:.

Let me say this: As two letters on the LGBTQIAA banner, I say let it become a thing with these throwbacks. Can you imagine how stupid a person would sound calling someone else a "pink tutu"? It immediately exposes a lack of creativity, a lack of intelligence, and a disgusting amount of misogyny all at the same time. Plus, as it is so ridiculous, I see it only as a trigger of laughter directed at the person trying to throw a slur. Let them have their little display of idiocy, and then we can mock them mercilessly for it.

As for the stereotype, take heart: No one really believes that just because you're gay you lack courage, because everyone knows that gay men and women really want to serve in our military. The reason they are not allowed is because macho douchebags are terrified of being hit on by guys. Who lacks the courage there? The one fighting to dodge bullets for a country and a cause they believe in, or the one cowering in their bunk because they got a lusty look from someone of the same sex?

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, at some point, you have to recognize that what you are confronting is sheer, unadulterated stupidity, and the best thing you can do is just laugh at it and walk away.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
49. i dont think its homophobic but more sexist
as though the worst thing can be is to be girly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #49
70. it's homophobia derived from sexism. I have thought this for a
long time. I agree.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. a lot of straight people have no idea that there are unfeminine gay men. it's pretty crazy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
50. I'm glad I got here in time to K&R this.
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
52. I've always seen it as a SEXIST insult (against women), and not anti-gay at all.
Edited on Sat Nov-13-10 08:12 PM by kath
not sure how or when this came to be thought of as anti-gay.

Many here seem to be very OK w/ anti-women comments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Does it matter? A slur is a slur, regardless of where it is aimed. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. If you see a difference between anti-gay and misogyny, you let me know.
I think rabid misogyny leads ENTIRELY to homophobia...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. +1!
Homophobia, misogyny, racism - they're all related.

"Dominant culture" (in this country - white) hetero males have enjoyed the most privilege on the planet - and they want to make damn sure it STAYS that way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #55
71. Agreed. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rhythm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
73. Precisely... i've always observed the two to go hand-in-hand. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
146. Indeed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iris27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
56. Exactly. It's this whole half-stalled gender revolution shit we're stuck in. It's a-ok for
girls and women to like "masculine" things, but horrible for boys and men to like "feminine" things. Using "pink tutu", "man up", or any shit like that as insults is sexist and homophobic, whether that's the intent of the speaker or not. We are all responsible for our language choices.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
58. Sorry, but how in the world do you take Moores comment as a gay slur?
I'm a woman, and I think women, if anyone, could be offended by the comment since (female) ballerinas usually wear tutus. Misogyny pisses me off, but I wasn't offended by Moore's comment at all.

I think Moore's comment was great because it was to the point and not bogged down with political jargon that the average American could give a damn about trying to understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. You can call someone "weak" without adding "you know, feminine."
Right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #68
74. He could have just said "Obama needs to put on his boxing gloves."
Point made with no offense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iris27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #58
80. Misogyny and homophobia (at least against gay men) usually go hand-in-hand.
Particularly, the view of many asshole straight men who live in fear of being hit on by a gay man...it stems from how they view women, they do NOT want anyone looking at/thinking of them in the same predatory way that they think of their sexual targets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. wow, now that is an interesting theory i have never thought about
interesting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
199. All homophobia is also misogynistic.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 05:47 PM by Odin2005
A lot of it is "moral panic" by wingnuts obsessed with gender roles.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. And I might add, ballerinas are far from weaklings!!
I understand what you're saying. There is SUCH an entrenched thing in our culture about being "MANLY' as a measure of courage and strength (with "manly" defined narrowly as devoid of ANYthing "feminine," also defined narrowly).

"Pink tutu" = "girly" = weak and cowardly.

Ballerinas are athletes with nerves of steel.

So are male dancers, many of whom are gay. These are strong, courageous people.

Yet much of America would ridicule them while considering "manly" a fat sweaty slouch in an armchair, drinking beer and cheering on young, athletic men playing sports, yelling and swearing with great rage about something stupid that rubbed him wrong....

That's the image of "masculine" that = "ballsy, tough, gutsy," etc. in our culture and like you, I can't stand it.

(I also think all of this was in HUGE play during the 2004 presidential election, by the way.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
69. I get it and I believe educating people about it is crucial.
Even the fairly enlightened among us can miss the more subtle forms of bigotry. I think this can account for why we, sometimes, see people who really are big supporters of equal rights use language like this.

Gay slurs and misogyny permeate our culture and our language and many people who are not misogynists and bigots say these things without stopping to think or analyse the roots of the phrase. Raising awareness is the key.

Therefore, K&R

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. I'm startled that many DUers so easily dismiss the anger about it.
They did the same with Meg Whitman and O'Donell's comments (grudging credit for consistency, I suppose). That they don't understand the anger shows how prevalent the oppression is.

Sigh--ever onward.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. yep, there's a lot of patriarchal bullshit here. dismissive explainations about how they know
what gay men and women really should be more concerned about . Gosh the straight dudes think they know best again, and they are not afraid to tell us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
201. Yup, as I said up-thread I was like that until my friend's getting raped forced me to open my eyes.
people use such language without realizing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-13-10 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
72. K & R
Very well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
87. Why do you assume it's all about gays and not a sexist slam on being a female?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 05:54 AM by dkf
Pink tutu to me is calling someone a "girl" aka weak.

In a way you are protesting against gay men being equated with females which means you are endorsing the female stereotype as someone weak who lacks courage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. So gay men should be equated with women?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #88
107. when my youngest son had that done to him, he said... and what is the problem with being a female?
like that is an insult?

he is well aware he is not a girl, on the other hand, he isnt going to help create the girl as something less desirable in the process of defending self.

that is being aware

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. exactly!
When my older son was about eleven he had the most beautiful below shoulder length blonde hair. When we went to Taiwan/China - EVERYONE there assumed "he" was a girl. He didn't correct people, didn't get upset, etc...

I asked him after the first couple of days if it bothered him and he said, "no, mom. It's not like being called a girl is an insult or anything!" He went on to say he didn't want to embarass them by correcting them.

My brother absolutely refused to buy that my son wasn't bothered by being called a "girl".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #112
121.  "no, mom. It's not like being called a girl is an insult or anything!" ... enlightened
these are the enlightened ones. i love your son, lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #121
136. I love him, too.
Will it surprise you to learn that he became a ballet dancer just a few years ago? Thus adding to my outrage over these remarks.

He has been automatically assumed to be "gay" because he dances. He was bullied horribly in his brief stint at middle school because of it.

His "best friends" have ALWAYS included "girls" along with guys. Along with gay, lesbian, trans, and all races. In 1st grade, he refused to play with the boys who wouldn't let the girls play soccer with them. He organized the girls, formed a team and challenged the little - uh - dears - to a soccer match wherein the girls proceeded to kick butt. Those "boys" quit saying that "girls can't play soccer" and soon thereafter (most) everyone played happily together.

My younger son (12) - who is a lineman sized football player - is ALSO a ballet dancer (and jazz, tap, modern, lyrical, hiphop, contemporary), and I find it odd no one ever teases him about it. In fact, some of his coaches are trying to figure out how to get some of the other boys to take classes, too! They tell me one doesn't usually find a guy his size, that quick & agile!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #136
137. your boys sound like mine, difference in size too. and age order. isnt that interesting
and yes, we see the difference the fooball player body gets with the other.

that is a wonderful story. thanks for telling me. i really really enjoy hearing about the kids breaking away from the conditioning. i like my sons coming ot me with experiences in the day, that this happens. so great. thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #136
208. It sounds like your kids grow up with some very well rounded
skill-sets. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #112
207. That is a wonderful kid. You did well with him.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #107
159. So bigotry against women and gay men is accepatable?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 02:10 PM by Behind the Aegis
ETA: I have no problem being equated with a woman; I never have. I do have a problem with it when it is meant as an insult.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #159
160. i think you had to work too hard to twist what happened with son, to that.
your post makes no sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #160
164. Actually, your's doesn't.
You twisted, I was untwisting your remarks. The "pink tutus" may be a sexist slam, but it is often used against gay men and it isn't that we don't like being equated to or called "girls/women" it is we are objecting to sexism being used as homophobia. Perhaps it is too nuanced for you to understand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. aegis, be it a slam against women or used to insult gays, it is wrong. simply. wrong.
i understand it has been used in both ways.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. Well, that is good to hear!
So seabeyond, there is a reason DSC created this thread to express his outrage and disappointment and others have, as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. i dont have an issue with that. nor was i arguing dsc creating this thread.
i absolutely know the reason he did. i recommended his op.

i also saw how he in his own manner, and not with intent, slighted female (probably just in wording he chose). i also understand that it was not intended and ignored. it was just that poster recognized, and i had a little giggle moment acknowledging it. my bad, was expressing agreement with that poster. a poster i have never agreed with in past because i feel he/she has an agenda, and thought ooops, when i hit post.

but then, i had already done it so in honesty, left standing. just the kind of gal i am. and sure enough, that poster was addressed, bringing me along in the wake. which is fine.

now, i think i have totally explained myself.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. It is clearly both.
In the context in which it was used here on DU it was specifically a slam against the LGBT community, and it IS a frequently slur used against effeminate gay men.

Denying that this is an anti-gay slur is just naive and deny reality.

But sexism and hetero-sexism are intertwined. They reinforce each other. Both are based on strict enforcement of gender roles. So saying that this is sexism, and saying that this is anti-gay are both right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:30 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. Yet the poster equates being feminine with being weak and lacking courage.
And makes the assertion that gay men lack no courage unlike women I suppose.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #92
99. From your post...
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 07:58 AM by dkf
Why I find the term pink tutu so damn offensive

But the one stereotype that really aggrivates me is that we lack courage

effiminate, aka pink tutu

Put those three things together and you are offended at being called pink tutu aka effeminate (having feminine characteristics) because that is an accusation of lacking courage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. Edit: Not worth the effort. nt
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 08:10 AM by blondeatlast
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #92
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #102
139. Read the thread. I'm not the only one pointing this out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #87
106. i got that little twist also, lol. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
93. K&R for all my loving & loved Gay friends! Well said! Thank you!! eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
94. well, for the record, ballet dancers take a lot of shit....
....probably more than they should, in order to get into and stay in the company...but the are generally very strong people to be able to put up with the rigors of their art.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
103. I agree with you ..
.... about the courage part. But I disagree with your premise. The term is effective and it is not necessarily aimed at gay people. To be honest, to be a ballerina and wear a pink tutu and dance for others takes courage also. Maybe not the same courage as it takes to stand up and be who you are when parts of society are idiots, but courage nonetheless.

Images like this are based on deeply held symbolism and quite often have nothing to do with anything factual.

I wish you wouldn't take it personally, when I use the term I am most definitely not thinking it applies to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. True, but that isn't how Moore meant it. The exact quote:
"Take off the pink tutu. It's time to put on the boxing gloves and fight for the people and go fighting for the people."

Had he left out the first sentence, likely no one would be offended. The fact that he made that comparison speaks for itself. I know and you know that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but a lot of ordinary, non-politically wonky people don't.

As a woman and an ally, it's offensive to me regardless of how he meant it. And furthermore, it's simply a very, very stupid thing to have said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HopeHoops Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
105. The first thing that always comes to MY mind when I hear "pink tutu" is Cheech, end of "Up In Smoke"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #105
189. Yep. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
108. K & R!
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
109. Who uses a term like that?
Nobody I know would use such a putdown.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #109
113. Michael Moore did, on "Real time with Bill Maher," referring to Pres. Obama. Quote:
"I, like a lot of people who voted for President Obama, and certainly one of the best days I've had in the last decade was being able to vote for him, but I would like to say to him with all due respect, to please take off your pink tutu because it's time to put on the boxing gloves and go fighting for the people."

Had he simply left off the pink tutu part; I'd have no problem with what he said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #113
122. simply left off the pink tutu part; I'd have no problem with what he said.
yup

it really is not a tough one. it is not an either or.

the either or is be sexist or dont
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #122
127. In context, Moore's remark was not hate speech
I'm considering Mikchael's age and generation.

I don't think he was disparaging Obama as 'gay'. It was an unfortunate choice of words.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. i didnt say hate and i figure he was buddying up to sexist maher to feel all manly
personally. because of the show and attitude to female, he was doing what a lot of men find themselves doing when in a group, diss female to feel like a man.

i dont even think it is any more of a deal then all the many sexist, bullshit, comments we hear on a regular basis that condition both genders to womens place in this society.

but

i am not going to pretend it was nothing. becuase it is something. it is a continual conditioning. adn i am not, nor do i want to be defined as weak, timid and if i am aggressive, a bitch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #127
134. Agree with all of it--as I say, had he just used the boxing analogy alone, no problem.
But it is offensive to many--and understanding why opens up a dialog about the place those who are offended have in society.

Doesn't matter if it's meant to indicate gay or feminine--the implication is that both are weak and delicate and afraid to fight. That's why the boxing metaphor alone would have ben perfect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
110. My younger brother is a combat-decorated Naval aviator. He's also gay. I defy anyone ...
to call him a coward.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
111. I'm baffled that this even needs explanation! (n/t)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
114. I winced when MM used that expression
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 09:52 AM by Love Bug
I used to see it all the time on DU until someone must have pointed out how bigoted it really is.

A lot of expressions are based in bigotry. People used to say, "Get your cotton-picking hands off of that" all the time, but think about that one for a minute and you will see why it's offensive.

Another one that's very common is "Grow a pair." A pair of what, exactly?

Sometimes people just don't think first.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #114
123. thanks. spade a spade
i wonder about this one too, so i have stopped using it. dont know if it is blacks, cards, shovel.

but i have never thought of cotton picken hands.... wow. thanks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. looked before and wasnt difinite so stopped using. i remember. here is what it says
Call a spade a spade
Meaning
To speak plainly - to describe something as it really is.

Origin
It might be thought that this derives from the derogatory use of the slang term 'spade', meaning Negro - an American term originating in the 20th century. That view of it as derogatory might also be thought to be supported by this piece from John Trapp's Mellificium theologicum, or the marrow of many good authors, 1647:

"Gods people shall not spare to call a spade a spade, a niggard a niggard."

Trapp's use of 'niggard' is difficult to interpret. The word had several meanings in the 17th century. It could be used to mean 'miser', which is the more common usage today, or as a general term of abuse - 'lout', 'barbarian' etc. The word was also used as the name of firebricks in grates.

The co-incidence in form and pronuctiation of 'niggard' and 'nigger' causes some confusion. Although the two words probably derived independently, they doubtless affected each other's development of meaning over time.

Whatever Trapp's intention was, we can be confident that he didn't mean 'nigger' or 'negro'.

An earlier expression of the notion, albeit in different form to that which we now use, comes from Nicolas Udall's 'Apophthegmes, that is to saie, prompte saiynges. First gathered by Erasmus' - translated in 1542:

"Philippus aunswered, that the Macedonians wer feloes of no fyne witte in their termes but altogether grosse, clubbyshe, and rusticall, as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade."

This refers back to Plutarch's Apophthegmata.

The eccentric right-wing British Tory politician Sir Gerald Nabarro was fond of emphasizing his direct 'man of the people' image by saying 'I call a spade a shovel'. In fact, despite being from an immigrant family himself, Nabarro loudly supported the repatriation of Caribbean immigrants to the UK. How he referred in private to the people who would have undoubtedly have been called 'spades' in Nabarro's social circle isn't recorded.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #125
194. Interesting.
I always thought it had more to do with the garden implement...a spade is not a shovel. Or something to do with playing bridge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #114
161. Michael Moore had been talking earlier, about how "effective"
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 02:22 PM by SoCalDem
the way republicans use words to boil down an issue to its essence.

Oddly, when the words "pink tutu" some to my mind, it's accompanied by an image of a little girl 5-6 yrs old, trying awkwardly to "be a ballerina". It has no "sexist-homophobic" connotations.

The phrase may send out alarm signals in people who are sensitive to their own issues, but to me it's synonymous with being childishly naive, and perhaps little girlish.

Didn't we all find this out during the 2004 election, and the 2000 one before that?

Our nation is obsessed with manliness, macho, boisterous behavior. We "like" it in our tv/movie stars and in our politicians. It's sad, but it is what it is.

John Kerry explained things in detail & W just made up funky words, strung a few of them together and the message (whatever it was at the time) was honed to a few easy to repeat words.

It goes on today..

death panel vs detailed explanation of what the plan actually was...yawn
clean coal vs what intelligent people know it really is (our side does it too, occasionally)
death taxes vs a lengthy explanation of how it's just an inheritance tax designed to finally tax longtime-untaxed-freebie money left to people who did not earn any of it

Why are there few, if any, parallel "slurs" used against women pols...and why they are not as "effective"? Men still dominate the political arena, and in fact women this time around wanted to be seen as "manly" .....

pink tutu = weak & little girlie

Is there even a comparative slam to be used against a grown woman?

tomboy? Many (most?) little girls are not chastised by society for playing boys' games.

Our society has clearly defined "how a man should act".. It should be strong, decisive, and determined. I don't think it has anything to do with personal sexual identity. W was strong, decisive and determined.. he was also wrong in every decision he made, but he did not appear to be weak, or little-girlie.

Mike was just making the point that Obama is not acting like a grown up man, when he seems indecisive and too willing to back down to his aggressors. In a child's world, the little girl being picked on by the big naughty boys, would run home, in her little ballet class outfit, and complain to Mommy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #161
167. so when repugs use girlie man, are they merely talking about little girls or feminized men?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 02:46 PM by seabeyond
i suggest the latter.

i also state that it is to continue the illusion of females as weak, males as strong.

that is sexist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #167
174. Yes, I guess it IS "sexist", but as a political tool, it paints a vivid
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 03:20 PM by SoCalDem
picture of an opponent..one that is easy for cartoonists to pick up on, and for political commentators to use again & again.


Like it or not, women are still called the "weaker sex"..is it true? of course not
but in simplistic-America, "weaker" is a subjective term, to be defined as each individual chooses.

Men may have more physical strength ..or not..but as a whole group, men are still perceived to be stronger physically, and most men I have known are quite sensitive to any criticism of their strength..even the ones who have trouble opening a jar of pickles :P..

This is WHY pols love to use the effective tool of feminizing their male opponents..

Recent crude behavior of many politicians pretty much proves that just about anything in that arena is not necessarily an impediment to re-election..(Vitter)...

We don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Politics is a mean game and rules are rarely followed. Feelings are hurt and mean things are said, but it has always been that way, and will probably always be.

The ones who are the boldest, get the most attention, and attention often translates into votes..

Stupid people vote too.. (as this recent election proved)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #174
181. you either stand against something or dont. n***** was once the way it was.
hwo many black people were told to suck it up accept it.

the only reason sexism will continue to be the way it is, is allowing hte very people that are on our sides, our allies to continue it on and not be more of a man, to withstand the pressure of falling back on dissing women to feel like men themselves.

as another poster pointed out. all he had to do was leave tutu out and say, .... obama needs to put the boxing gloves on.

but sittin with sexist maher, he resorted to male talk with another man, dissing women to make his point.

yes

i expect more out of him them that, and i am going to say i do.... outloud.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #114
191. When someone tells me to "grow a pair"
I just say...I already did. Right up here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
116. here's why I don't like it...
The pink tutu thing is not about being gay... it's about classical music (banal classical music usually) and dancing on tip-toe.

Having worked on many a ballet and with many dancers...

BALLET DANCERS WORK MORE AND HARDER AND ARE BETTER ATHLETES THAN THE AVERAGE BASEBALL PLAYER. They usually are teenagers up there in front of everyone doing amazing things, and get paid nothing for it with no recognition.

They are amazing people! If only our politicians had that much commitment and stamina!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
117. I don't like those stupid pink ribbons everywhere, either - and for
similar reasons as yours.

I'm all for breast cancer research and I'm female.

However, I HATE the color pink and I HATE how that automatically means "female" and I HATE that everyone assumes all females love the color. Because the color, for reasons good and bad, does mean "fru-fru effeminate coward," it pains me to see it used to denote both women and gay men.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PerpetuallyDazed Donating Member (806 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
118. I completely agree.
Moreover, men do not wear pink tutus; little girls and ballet dancers traditionally wear tutus. To use it as an insult is offensive to gay men AND females. The gender hating needs to stop, period.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vanbean Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
119. I've got news for you. When I hear the term "pink tutus", I don't connect it with "gay".
With all the troubles we have, do people really have to complain about something as trivial as this?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
120. Very happy to K&R this!
Thank you, dsc! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
124. I have to take issue with you elevating football! over the arts. If we want
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 10:29 AM by 1monster
to talk shallow, I can't think that a bunch of guys knocking each other down in high speed chases (the injury rate in football is 100%) across a field to score points by crossing a line had more depth, let alone the same depth as the arts.

It is true that I have met far more gay people while working in theatre, dance, and music than I have in any other walk of life. I believe that they showed far more courage than you are giving them credit. Those who worked in the arts were among the first to stand up and proclaim with their actions and their words that they were gay. Those in the arts who are not gay were among the earliest to accept gays as just people. And that is probably because the gays in the arts were among the earliest to declare themselves.

Proudly wear that pink tutu epitaph as the badge of courage it is. Those male dancers (gay or not) were teased and bullied something fierce for wearing tights. They deserve respect that YOU are denying them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #124
149. Nice. Thank you. /nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #124
212. no one is disrespecting ballerinas here, sorry. they are disrespecting the idea that it is okay to
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 07:08 PM by bettyellen
use dance imagery to disrespect other people- to use the "tutu' metaphors to signify the girlie, the frivolous, and all those other negative things. Just like when people tell boys to stop acting like girls. The insult is implied and you can recognize that without putting down girls themselves.
Boy, do you have it ass back wards. You should read some of the replies here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #212
216. You totally missed my point.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #216
219. Oh were you joking that people here were denying respect to ballerinas? because your post is
pretty confusing, but maybe you were being sarcastic at that part.
As I said, no one here is disrespecting ballerinas, and that is at best, a distant side issue here. so Im not getting what it has to do w/ the real issues here: the disrespect was against the feminine qualiles that men find very threatening and worthy of constant put downs. it doesn;t have much to do with dancers themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #219
222. step further, female qualities we are given, not that they are true. a forever conditioning
Edited on Tue Nov-16-10 08:18 AM by seabeyond
that females are weak and timid. forever being told we must sit, lower eyes, and shut up, in order to be female.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #222
223. I don't believe the weird detours people go to in denying that fact that these
Edited on Tue Nov-16-10 06:53 PM by bettyellen
words are used in a derogatory manner. They ignore the premise and the intent- completely! - in some sad little attempt to tell us it doesn;t matter... or something matters more than this so shut up or that someone else did it first. All lazy and selfish ways of saying "shut up" couched in a whole lot of BS. Ugh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raoul Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
128. Oh pulleeezzzeee
Get a fucking life willya? People are so fucking sensitive about useless crap when they should be outraged over REAL issues that are screwing all of us.

The term 'pink tutu' as used by Michael Moore regarding Obama has NOTHING to do with the GLBT issues which I, as a hetero, support 1000 percent. In fact, I've spoken out on behalf of my GLBT brothers/sisters emphatically over the years.

So lighten up a bit okay?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. right. only about dissing female and as a hetero male, that is please, get a life.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 10:52 AM by seabeyond
deal with the things serious in this nation, not the silly stuff like sexism and demeaning women... pffff

stand up for gays, you betcha.

stand up for women

are you kidding????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #128
135. "Get a fucking life." "Lighten up a bit>" In this very thread, many gays and women
have treid to explicate why the phrase is offensive--did you bother to read them?

I'm still a fan of Moore's, of course, and had he just used the damn boxing metaphor alone, no problem. Maybe it doesn't offend you because it isn't used to denigrate "your" kind--but people are hurt by it, especially from one many consider a major, public ally--and it behooves you to understand why.

BTW, I have a very full rich life of family, work, friends, culture, and athletic endeavors, but I am one of those offended--doesn't matter which category, and I suggest you take a moment to listen before extolling me to "get a life."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #135
205. Well, I'm a woman
and I wasn't offended at all by what he said. Whether that's right or wrong is another story. I know I'm not weak. I know what MM meant by saying what he said. Yes, he should have left off the pink tutu part. I'm not going to go deep thinking an off the cuff remark by someone I respect. I'm unemployed. My nephew has a very aggressive bone cancer. I've got un-paid medical bills 90+ days past due. I'm going to apply for food stamps tomorrow. I got other things to worry about than what some talking head says, frankly.

However, as another poster mentioned...pink tutu was used around here alot vis a vis certain political figures. I recall Anne Coulter being called a c*nt. I also recall there being very little outrage at the time.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #205
209. yes, and as you shrig this off, many shrugged off the coulter thing. then again, ,many of the
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 06:50 PM by seabeyond
same people on this thread challenged and fought the righteous using that word on coulter.... stating du's hypocrisy, the sexism of it even if we did not like the woman.

i am sorry for your troubles. we can have more than one issue, one concern, at a time
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kurtzapril4 Donating Member (354 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #135
206. Sorry, dupe
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 06:16 PM by kurtzapril4
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #128
138. Those "uppity" coloreds should never have been pissed off about
the use of "n****r," either, should they have?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #128
142. the one who is insulted gets to decide whether they are insulted
Not some privileged white straight male.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #128
158. "Get a fucking life" "Lighten up"....."So fucking sensitive"....Disgusting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #128
171. telling other people their concerns aren;t important? why does anyone here gives a fuck what u think
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 03:05 PM by bettyellen
seriously, in terms of spinning your wheels and wasting time, people here are talking about things that concern them, and you're here to say you think its unimportant to you. No one cares for your critique, it;s self important bullshit.
so who needs to get a life?
YOU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #171
217. I love you.
:loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bettyellen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #217
220. I love you too Bluebear!
:loyeya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demmiblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #128
173. No. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishbulb703 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #128
177. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
131. The Marine's Lament (ridicules DADT)

"Fred Small is a terrific songwriter who has singled handedly captured the absurdity of our military policy in this simple, catchy song."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG7JSA2yhgc

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
133. I prefer 'Vichy Dems' personally
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Smarmie Doofus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
140. Homosexuality, as someone said of old age, is not for sissies. n/t
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 11:48 AM by Smarmie Doofus
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
October Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
144. Can I add to this...
At the risk of being attacked for being trivial, etc..... here goes...

I'd like to add that who the hell thinks anyone wearing a pink tutu is weak?

My daughter and son are aspiring professional ballet dancers. They work 8-10 hours a day in this physically demanding art form known as ballet. A pink tutu is a sign of weakness? Try it -- then we'll talk!

Further...

I tell people (and yes, they ask) that I don't care if my son is gay or straight -- at least he's in a world/profession that accepts him no matter which he is. They never ask about my daughter -- just assume.

The truth is, my little guys is 13 and I've made it so OK for him to be gay if that's who he is -- that I've had to sit him down and say, "Son, really... Mommy and Daddy are OK if you're straight... we want you to know it's OK..." lol! That's the running joke in our family because honestly, we have so many gay/straight friends I don't think about it any more. I'm a straight, married female and my closest friend is a gay male. At this stage, my son says he knows he's straight -- but he is already accustomed to defending his gay friends and answering questions of his own sexual identity.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
151. This is some sort of common place terminology?
I knew that I was out of touch with popular culture, but not that out of touch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
152. DSC, You Rock
For your common sense, and your refusal of herd mentality.


It's unfortunate that we have so many centuries of connecting feminine and/or feminine-trait symbols associated with women and male homosexuals, to cowardice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
axollot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
154. Agree, agree - but please, hear my plea - outrage like this - about a tutu reminds me
of Sarah Falin.

I love your posts and read you often so please don't take offense. I can empathise with your position and I am a Mum to a bi teen. We hate stereotypes. BUT..Sista Sarah has taken the reins and made this sort of 'riled' up her M.O. besides her, the left is accused of being overly sensitive!

Personally, I'm just saving my outrage for shite like the SWAT going in to OC Barbershops in FL. (video on top as of Sunday). That gets me outraged!

Cheers mate
Sandy
x
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bc3000 Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
155. I never heard "pink tutu" before. Is that something only used in the LGBT community?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 01:51 PM by bc3000
Also, maybe a fault isn't cowardice, but, overuse of commas, is certainly one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
156. Cowardice... yeah right.... K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Capitalocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
162. 100% agree.
Honesty in the face of adversity is the greatest kind of courage.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemocraticPilgrim Donating Member (472 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
163. Totally agree the strongest peoplein the world are gay because they have to be.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 02:28 PM by DemocraticPilgrim
I'll never forget this straight guy who was ridiculing a gay guy assuming him to be weaker andthe holiest beating of his life I had to cheer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Denzil_DC Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
169. K&R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
puebloknot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
172. Color me naive, but when I heard Michael Moore say that ...
... my mind went to my little five-year-old daughter, in days of yore, who danced in a pink polka-dotted tutu, along with all her little girl classmates -- all of whom still had the pink, not-yet-healed scars of chicken pox.

I'm not belittling your concern here, and I felt Mr. Moore might have chosen a better way to express his frustration (at least he didn't use the term "man up"), but I saw that metaphor as a reference to "dancing around the issues," being too namby-pamby and hesitant to get the job done.

It never entered my head that that term was directed at gay people. And though MM has faults, just like the rest of us, I cannot imagine his stooping to sub rosa criticisms of gays. He just comes out and says what he thinks, with very little subterfuge. If he intended to demean gays, he would have done it very concisely.

I'm a Texan by birth, an army brat who has seen a lot of the world. I'm not gay, but some of my best friends in California are! :) I once took my sixteen-year-old daughter to a GLBT party where we were the only straight women in the crowd. People were looking at us like, "Yeah, so you say. When are you going to come out???? " :) We didn't catch any viruses at the many parties we attended at that same residence. We're still straight!

"... it takes courage to be us." So true. It also takes courage to say "Wait, you're misinterpreting what I meant."

I live in Santa Fe now, and I've learned to appreciate the idea of the "talking stick." It dictates that you have to use great deliberation in conversation by waiting until the other guy is finished before it's your turn to talk, and to approach the whole thing with a default position of trusting the other party until he/she has shown evidence of not being ethical and compassionate.

I know there's plenty of difficulty and even impossibility for people who are gay. No denying that. But don't kill the messenger until you're sure what the message is! (Please?) And I fully acknowledge that with all the delays in killing off DADT, and the tragic suicides that have recently taken place, being a little (or a lot) sensitive is fully understandable.

Just know that some of us appreciate and respect your artistic/musical/literary/intuitive ways. It would be a sterile world without such!

Warm regards,

Judy Barrett
Santa Fe, NM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertDiamond Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
179. Hear hear! Also, taking it back back further, aren't they calling women cowards? Or just ballerinas?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
185. You and I may not agree on much in terms of the president, but you are spot on here!
I was highly offended by the "pink tutu" comment, and I am a straight woman. It's not only homophobic, there's a tinge of misogyny as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
186. Toughen up
I doubt he was calling Obama gay.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #186
188. no he wasnt. a weak girl. calling bullshit out is toughing up.... ignoring it is weak. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
187. Haven't heard pink tutu in years - since I stopped going to bartcop
Edited on Sun Nov-14-10 05:08 PM by Politicub
And come to think of it, I don't think I've seen it on DU. Not saying it's not there, it just doesn't appear in threads I frequent. I never liked the term either, though.

I probably stopped visiting bartcop three years ago or more. After I press post on this message, I'm going to surf over and see if it's still there.

On edit: Okay, just returned from bartcop. I remember why I stopped reading the site... it never really changes. You could do a find and replace to swap Obama for Daschle and the site would be the same as it was 7 years ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #187
192. Didn't you have a Shirley picture for him? Guess not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #192
195. What? Not sure what you mean n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #195
218. Check down at the botton of Bartcop's columns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Buzz cook Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #187
225. I suppose if you were a fan of Tom Dashle it might be upsetting.
Or a fan of any of the democrats Bart thinks are surrender monkeys.
I personally don't think he goes far enough in his criticism.

In fact over the years in which I've read Bartcop, I think he has moderated his rhetoric to a great degree.
What he has not moderated is his positions on the issues. One of those issues in which he remains adamant is gay rights. You'll never read or hear him saying gays should wait their turn or submerge their fight for rights for the "greater good". That is a position that Obama and the democratic leadership have taken.
Bart wouldn't put the pink tutu on any gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans-gender person who was fighting for their rights. He would reserve that for the people such as Dashle or Obama who don't fight for those rights.

I do believe he owes an apology to ballerinas though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Grown2Hate Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
190. Interesting. I will K&R because I honestly never saw it that way. I took that expression
(and Moore's use of it, followed with "and put ON the boxing gloves") to mean quick dancing around with the ReThugs when what we REALLY need to do is start PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE. Aren't "tutus" worn by not generally women, or gay men, but by dancers specifically? Again, not trying to argue, and I see the point now, but that's never how I took that expression. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #190
198. pink tutu = little girls. girlie men. quit crying like a girl, throwing, running
talking screamin....... being, like a girl. weak, timid, emotional, incapable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polmaven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-10 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #190
221. Male ballet dancers
do not wear tutus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
193. And us straight guys that fit the "stereotype" are accused of being gay, it sucks.
I was the "moody, introspective, sensitive kid" so I was constantly accused of being gay.

Ironically the most macho, butch guy I know is gay.

Oh, and in many Ancient Greek city-states the elite infantry unit was for gays only!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
200. K&R --
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
204. late K&R ---
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
210.  Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours
so kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
211. OMG, I'm fucking GAY....
I love the arts, adore musicals, sports, Eh. I'm not flighty but I do like the ballet...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #211
215. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-10 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
214. Love that people are looking at this from the highest perspectives .... sexism and homophobia....
Bush was plenty aggressive and violent, but I view him as a coward --

Peace is harder than war!


Did it take guts for Obama to make back room deals with Big Pharma and private

health care industry?

Would it have taken guts for either Bush or Obama to privatize Social Security?

Did the $12 Trillion in Bush/Obama bail outs for corrupt and criminal corporations

take guts?

How about Afghanistan - if Obama goes back on his word to leave in 2011, is that guts?

IMO, these are all acts of cowardice and weakness.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Sep 16th 2014, 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC