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if it is all obamas fault for not being progressive, why did feingold and grayson lose?

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 09:59 AM
Original message
if it is all obamas fault for not being progressive, why did feingold and grayson lose?
for duers to continually state the reason of 2010 election is ALL obama, ignoring so many other major issues in this election is ridiculous, and less than honest or perceptive. but to insist it is cause of lack of progressive laws passed (which is not true) then explain why our two most progressive people lost.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Money and bullshit talked.
how much support did either get from the DLC?
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. But aren't people SO HUNGRY for a progressive that that wouldn't matter? n/t
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pokercat999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. It doesn't matter the first battles were lost in 1965, the big
battles were lost in 1980, the war was lost before Clinton officially surrendered in 1995. There remains an insurgency that hangs on but with little effect, all but a few will toe the company line. Those few will be a treated as a joke by the MSM and thus their progressive ideas will be marginalized until they give in or give up.

This election didn't matter one bit.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. he got a lot. he also had rw corporate money against him. and issue that is our problem now. nt
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. My guess is, Feingold's just been in the Senate long enough that
Wisconsin wanted new blood--plus maybe it's just getting redder. Grayson just burned out fast, maybe also was a poor fit for his district. I don't think any sweeping assumptions can be made right now.
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young but wise Donating Member (760 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. It's not about going to the left.
It's about people wanting the economy to get better faster.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. yes. and then there is reality. but yes, people are fearful and hurting and uninformed. nt
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
51. Reality
was conspicuously absent during this election, and, in fact, has been becoming increasingly scarce each November. This election was about keeping government hands off of Medicare. That being the case, there is no way of intelligently blaming anyone or making any sense out of the thing. The "uninformed" quotient is abominable. My plan for the next four years, and I know it's hopeless, but it'll make me feel better, is to politely question people who are "against Obamacare." Since I know no one who even knows what "single payer" is, I will not have to worry about the "it should have gone further" crowd, I have no issue with them, I agree. I picked Obamacare because its provisions are fairly quantifiable and understandable, I don't want an argument on how to solve unemployment. I will ask them specifically what they don't like. If they struggle, I will name some of its provisions and ask for some input on what is wrong. I will try to be sporting about it, taking no cheap shots and making no loud guffaws. I will not point out that they are against something that they don't know anything about. This is my plan.
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. Smart plan
And could even be helpful in picking up votes.

Myself and most Dems I know are against single-payer and the latest HCR and a polite conversation over the issue would be more than welcomed.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. most dems you know are against single-payer?
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kctim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. Absolutely
and MANY of them voted for Blunt last night to show just how against they are.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. reason
refreshing. i agree. that is how i approach it.
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
5. Because DLC hacks like Van Hollen and Menendez diverted all the money to DLC candidates
Even though Grayson and Feingold were among those most heavily targeted by Repukes.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. feingold got support. he also had corporate rw attacking him and way over spent
an issue this election. hardly to do with obama. everything to do with supreme court ruling.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
56. Yep. Outspent FOUR to ONE.
That's a lot of dishonest ad buys.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. yup, exactly. nt
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. And I would suspect that you have some handy fax n' figures to back that
posit.

Don't cha??
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
10. Rush Limbaugh and FOX News
Until Dems do something to address the vast right wing media hate machine, this will happen again.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. yes. and create a false problem is not going to help finding the solutions. nt
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onenote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #10
55. rush and fox news were around in 2006 and 2008 and we picked up 50 plus seats
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't know where you were but where I live this was a referendum on Obama/Pelosi
Every ad I heard mentioned Obama and Pelosi in the most negative terms..
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WorseBeforeBetter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
63. North Carolina?
Ah, no, Alaska. It wasn't pretty in NC last night, but at least that fucker Ilario Pantano lost.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
64. what a surprise repugs used the evil and dreaded pelosi and muslim obama to get votes. nt
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
12. I don't think it's lack of progressive laws per say -
well I don't think he passed much in the way of progressive legislation either. But I don't think that's the point.

I think it's really much simpler. Bad economy and it didn't get better. People vote in protest (which is fruitless because the other side is only going to rob them blind again) - but I think that is really what happened.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. you keep saying he did not pass progressive law but unwiling to educate yourself. what does that
make you.

and i agree, people are fiscally afraid and jobs are lost, gone, forever, and that fear is a HUGE part of it.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Again with the nasty personal attacks - you and I must
have a different definition of "progressive".
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. what you dont get is it is not personal attack. you say obama passed no progressive law. that is
not true. that is not factual. that is false. so you dont get informed. you dont have the information. you refuse to educate yourself. how is that my problem?


http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Sorry we disagree but your attacks are unneccessary.
Obama has been breaking unions and favoring privatization. See: Arne Duncan & education. Also see: Social Security the next 2 years.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
13. They were marginalized by their own party
When you marginalize your own members, they are going to lose. By running to the right and favoring the blue dogs, you left the progressive members hanging out there by themselves.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. +1000--Winner!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. so it had nothing to do with HUGE influx of corporate money? control of media
with message for last two years? the fucked up situation bush gave us?

the blue dogs themselves going against obama?

it was all obama?
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. It was Obama
I was Obama going against his own party in Afghanistan. I was Obama siding with the Blue Dogs. It was Obama preferring Spector and Lincoln. It was Obama going to Ohio to campaign for HCR in Kucinich's district, and never even calling Lieberman. It was Obama siding with Geithner and the bankers, not with the mortgage holders.
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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
46. This pretty much encapsulates your view. If it sucks, "It was Obama"
No wonder people stopped visiting DU. Too many morons.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. You're still here
Edited on Wed Nov-03-10 11:28 AM by zipplewrath
I'm reminded of my own comment way back in the early '90s when my company was laying off a whole bunch-o-people. I observed that the layoffs had really cut to the bone and "all the best people were already gone". It's about the time I realized I was still there.

Sorta like Yogi's "No body goes there anymore, it's too crowded".
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. Um, why do you think they were marginalized?
I seem to recall these two specifically speaking out against the "HUGE influx of corporate money", while the rest of the party embraced it.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. the rest of the dem party did not embrace the supreme court ruling.
the dems continually and often spoke out against it and still are. obama made an unprecedented comment in his state of union address to the court.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. Um, there is in fact a large amount of corporate money going into the Dem party...
...and dictating Dem policies.

These two spoke out against it and were silenced by their own party for having done so.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. that is a different issue than the corporate money spent on campaign against these two people. nt
Edited on Wed Nov-03-10 10:51 AM by seabeyond
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. Sure it is. nt
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. They became collateral
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. they became victims of corporate paid ads. they became victim of demonizing obama all the time
24/7. IF it was an outcry for more progressive seats, they would have been voted in.
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mazzarro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
18. Well The Problem Start Form The People At The Top
Edited on Wed Nov-03-10 10:18 AM by mazzarro
IMO Feingold and Grayson lost because:
(1) The Democratic base was dis-spirited and depressed from the lukewarm performance of the legislative majority.
(2) The drive for bi-partisanship inhibited vigorous rebuttal of the rightwing propaganda from the beginning.
(3) Allowing teabaggers to gain wide acceptance by not challenging their lies and slanders and racism by the DNC was monumental mistake.
(4) Democrats as a whole running away from their (not so liberal) accomplishments made it difficult for the few who gladly embraced them.

My hope is that someone like Grayson be appointed to the chairmanship of the DNC and have him resurrect the 50 state strategy and other Howard Dean's ideas again.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
21. Sold Out
Feingold and Grayson are in red areas, the repugs put up viable candidates this time around.

and the general feeling among dems is that we put them in power and they caved to the big corporations

Sure Obama did a lot of token progressive stuff but the major stuff he failed on

Still fighting hugely expensive oil wars

Caved to BP in the gulf, it's a travesty of record proportions and they are not being prosecuted. The gov aided and abetted them in an ongoing coverup. If you really think BP is going to spend $20 Billion on recovery I've got beach front property to sell you, it will be just like the Exxon Valdez, a farce/fraud/fake.

Caved to the big banks, $Trillion dollar bailouts and no meaningful prosecution. The criminal perpetrators were appointed to positions of power. The financial "reform" is token, all the major problems are still in place for it to happen again.

Caved to health care/health insurance/pharma. Sure token people got new coverage but everyone else their insurance went up. Mine doubled in one year and the coverage went down.

this country and Obama are owned by the corporations, they don't care about the workers, we put dems in power and they really didn't do much for the workers. Other major Obama failures are Acorn, falsely accused by hard right wingers, Obama threw them under the bus in a heartbeat in spite of the fact they were instrumental in putting him in power. The Unions also have been abused, their card check went in the dumper and Obama's appointment to Sec of Educ is anti union and they are trying to bust the teachers union, the last big union in the country.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. i dont knwo about greyson, but feingold candidate was a piece of shit.
IF what you are saying is true, then they would be sure to vote these progressives in, to hold obamas feet to fire. not elect people that are going further to the right of obama.
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Kalun D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Dems didn't vote
because when they voted last time it didn't make any difference

the politicians didn't do anything for them

case in point, extension of the bush tax cuts for the filthy richers

one of the main reasons for the out of control deficit and debt

FAIL

good luck getting anything done now, Obama will be another one termer, he's failing worse than Carter

Or maybe he's not failing, after all he's doing exactly what the corporations want him to do.
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. K&R!
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
30. Why? Easy...

Because key Democratic demographics which came out in large numbers in the 2006 mid-terms, and increased in 2008, did not come out this year. On the other hand, key Republican demographics did come out. The "enthusiasm gap" was very real. That is what the contrast between LV and RV told you. Same with "independents". It was not so much that they "shifted", as that different "independents" voted. Go down a level and look at their demographics.

Where the electorate is split, the change in turnout ("enthusiasm") overwhelms Democrats, "progressive" or otherwise. You can spin up blame any way you like but nobody is entitled to votes...

What is "progressive" is not decided by you or by argument on DU. It is precisely decided in metrics such as electoral turnout.

It was not just Obama. It was also the Democratic Congress. Neither one gave the "progressive base" (by demographic) enough reason to come out and vote in strong numbers. The legislation was not progressive enough and was not perceived to be progressive enough to create the local majority.

Therefore, the administration and congress were NOT progressive, no matter how it "seems" to anyone in particular. The narrative that a progressive agenda which was too subtle for people to understand... that is a literary and not a political concept.

If "progressive" confuses you, try "popular" or "partisan to their interests", or any catch-phrase you like.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. so the proganda news and the corporate spending in these areas, and the misinformation
lack of information, lack of jobs, forgetting 2 years ago, history had nothing to do with it?

it was all obama?
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
45. If you want to talk to yourself, feel free...

The people who did not come out were, presumably, the least swayed by "misinformation" or "propaganda", at least according to what I read here. They were the ones who came out for Democratic candidates in 2006 (and 2008, which was not a mid-term).

You have no argument... just a predisposition.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
31. I've heard that Feingold hitched his wagon to Obamacare...that probably was a mistake. nt
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. yes. it's totally obama's fault he lost.
:crazy:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Word order and choice have a profound impact on sentence meaning.
Edited on Wed Nov-03-10 10:45 AM by Romulox
You respond like a 'bot that only understands a few keywords. Syntax matters! :shrug: :hi:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. and those that ran away from obamacare got shot down too. nt
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
32. Grayson is not progressive, just window dresses. Feingold is sad collateral damage
whose biggest mistake was campaigning on voting for that sorry healthcare BS Obama passed.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. and those that lost because they were voting against the stimulus and obamacare? nt
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
58. It's amazing how rather than re-examine your own assumptions about healthcare
after seeing that all progressive members of Congress voted for it, you actually think they are the ones that are wrong.

:rofl:
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. It is Obama's fault
A president leads, Obama did not lead.
Bush led, in the wrong direction, but he led.
Perhaps there were too many problems for him to solve
but at the same time he did not bring in people
to help him or he brought in the wrong people.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. bush led, but wrong, you say success. he lost congress. obama passed progressive bills
and accomplished more for progressive movement yet our own people ignore.

and this is your rational for loss?
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
50. I never said bush was a success. I said he led.
You do not lead from starting at the middle.
He made poor choices in choosing the people around him.

True, this country would be in worse shape if he had done nothing.
The stimulus did help. The housing market is in shambles and he
talks about how we have to protect the mortgage companies.
So what if you lose your house to fraud. The banks have massive
profits and bonuses, still the people at the bottom have no jobs
People say the education system does not work, so he goes out and
puts it into private hands and attacks the unions instead of working with them.

Are we better off with him in office than mccain?? Yes
Are we better off than when bush left office?? Maybe

There are all kinds of leaders out there, at different times it takes a
different type of leader. He can talk a good game but I have my doubts whether
he was the correct leader for what laid in front of him. I did not see the Obama
I voted for once he was in office.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. There is some truth to that but it can't be all his fault. He got as
much done as he could with the hand he was dealt. The party of NO helped out tremendously. Did you notice Boner saying, "we'll work together?" Funny how that works, now that the pubs run the house but as long as PO was BEGGING to work together they blew him off! Fuck em and fuck this country.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. We are at a crossroads in this country
Some would say that we are past that crossroads.

He was dealt a shitty hand, no doubt about it.
He wanted the job. If it was too much for him then he needed to ask for help.
The problem with that is that for a lot of dems were not sure which
direction he was heading. I do not feel he was the type of leader
that this country needed at this time. That is my opinion.

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cottonseed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
48. Obama is responsible for everything bad. Especially when progressive pinups get their asses kicked.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
49. Not "all" Obamas fault...but the progressive voices
Edited on Wed Nov-03-10 11:03 AM by Desertrose
had to be the ones they threw the most RNC/CC money at. The ones who would really help the people and not the corporations - they had to go. Obama doesn't get that.

Too many ads...too many lies and not enough help from Obama . If he'd have stood stronger against the repubs and not tried to get along (a trait which I normally admire - but not with liars like the GOP)....just a lot of bad moves & bad advice along the way....too little to fight back with. Certainly not all Obamas fault but he sure as hell coulda made some better choices. This is MHO.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
57. Because the progressive agenda didn't progress?
That's my guess. Also, there's a double standard here... Repubes get nasty and get votes, Dems get nasty and get demonized.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Repubes get nasty and get votes, Dems get nasty and get demonized
true that. it was also only demographics that seemed to call out disappointment and recall on the incumbents and not all the nation. which we overlook when we pin it all on obama
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-03-10 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
66. An aberration
Grayson and Feingold lost because a shitload of unaccounted money got dumped on their races.

But let's look at a slightly larger picture, hmmm? The Blue Dogs and the Progressives in the House. Meteor Blades at Daily Kos has the preliminary report on the post mortem: Out of 54 Blue Dogs, 23 lost their bid for re-election, four didn't run, and two tried for Senate office (both lost). So that's 29 Blue Dogs in the present Congress who won't be back for the next Congress. The 79 member Progressive caucus saw four losses, including Grayson. Fully 75 Progressives were returned by their constituents, and less than half the Blue Dogs will be going back to Washington.

I don't know if anyone is saying that it is ALL Obama's fault (may I just say that's a dandy straw man you posit), but compromising away so much on health care reform, the too-small stimulus package, and education instead of providing leadership from an unapologetically progressive stand generally hurt Democrats far more - in particular Blue Dogs - than it hurt Progressives. Yes, the loss of Feingold and Grayson hurts, but it appears that the Blue Dogs took a far more substantial hit than the Progressives did. Had they governed and run as Democrats with the support of the White House, they might still be holding their seats.
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