According to you, are some cultures ethically superior to other cultures?

[ZombieHorde]

Poll question: According to you, are some cultures ethically superior to other cultures?

For example, is Japan's culture more ethical than Saudi Arabia's culture? Is Canada's culture more ethical than America's culture?

[geek tragedy]

1. Absolutely. To pretend that all cultures are equal is also to pretend

that cultures don't need to change.

[LiberalLoner]

3. I think so. I mean, for instance, I think the culture of Nazi Germany was overall not a very moral

society.

[WillieW]

143. and the US is/was?

[LiberalLoner]

162. No, ours isn't either. n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

5. And what would be the "standard" for change?

Not all cultures are equal but no culture is superior than any.

[geek tragedy]

18. To start, cultures that respect women's rights

are superior to those that don't.

[Lost-in-FL]

36. Maybe in this period, however, during past periods it was not the norm.

Does that mean that "superior" cultures are always righteous?

Times change, principles change because humanity is not stagnant and develop morals standards accordingly to the times and culture.

[Shankapotomus]

61. cultures that help the weak and vurerable should be the standard of good

and cultures that cultivate internal competition and inner species rivalry should be the standard of the bad.

[Lost-in-FL]

6. duplicate

[Lost-in-FL]

2. It would be arrogant to think that other cultures are better than others.

:yoiks: :popcorn:

[Chan790]

10. See, that's where we're going to disagree.

As I pretty much objectively know that some cultures are better than others. It's not even a stretch to think so, moral relativism is an intellectual failure. To borrow a snidism: Turtles on turtles, it's all fallacies all the way down.

[Lost-in-FL]

37. Really? According to who some cultures are better than others?

Seriously, I am curious.

[Chan790]

63. Here's several.

David Caute, Oxford historian, a foremost academic on the "cultural-war" aspect of the Cold War.
Bill Maher, TV pundit and comedian.
Francis Fukayama, Political Scientist.
John F. Kennedy, US President.
Jean-Paul Sartre, Philosopher.
Anna Jackson, Art Historian and cultural critic. (Mind you, Japanese Art and Culture.)

There's some contemporary thinkers for you, none of whom is batshit-crazy or a eurocentric (white) supremacist.

Historically we can add several political scientists and social-contract thinkers:

John Stuart Mill
John Jacques Rousseau
Jeremy Bentham
Edmund Burke
Friedrich Nietzsche

[Lost-in-FL]

77. Only westerners?

No wonder we are so biased. We don't even take the time to look beyond our culture.

[Chan790]

91. Well, okay.

Jackson denigrates Western culture as inferior to Japanese traditional culture, but I see how that could be interpreted as an extension of the "quaint exoticism" that western societies have imputed onto any culture that wasn't their own from time immemorial.

Likewise there are a number of Japanese, Korean and Chinese thinkers I could have named but the racism runs strong in them. You have to know that in the more-provincial parts of those nations it's still perfectly acceptable to hate other cultures to a degree that would astound many Westerners. Some Chinese have not forgotten what the Japanese did in WW II, nor have the Koreans. Likewise, there is a small but significant nationalism in parts of rural Japan that still believes in the cultural inferiority of their neighbors.

[Lost-in-FL]

99. Really, I was not trying to argue but to point out our bias.

;-)

[Telly Savalas]

114. Presumably according to you.

The conduct of government is intertwined with the culture of a society. Advocacy for a certain set of policies inherently assumes that the culture supported by such policies is superior to the one that arises in the absence of such policies. By virtue of the fact that you're posting on a partisan political board, it's a pretty fair assumption that you have ideas on how things should be run.

For example, if you don't think the Taliban culture is any worse than ours, then you clearly shouldn't have any issues with right-wing theocrats assuming office here in the US.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

31. Yes, but arrogant does not mean incorrect

[Lost-in-FL]

38. Not at all incorrect. Same as no culture is better or worse than others.

Edited to include...

I am afraid that both Cultural relativism and Moral relativism are easy to be confused/interchanged. They are not the same and unfortunately it appears to be precisely what is happening in this discussion.

[WinkyDink]

49. "Culture" doesn't stop short of ethics. It isn't merely a question of eating insects or not.

[Lost-in-FL]

76. No it is not.

But once you include questions of ethics and morality, we are no longer discussing culture qua culture. When you add those it gets complicated. I am aware that there are no absolutes.

[Bragi]

170. No absolutes? Really?

I think there are absolutes.

Cultures ruled by law are better than those that aren't. That's one absolute.

Cultures which disapprove of people killing or harming one another strike me a better than those that permit this kind of behaviour.

Cultures will allow for free speech are better than those that don't.

Cultures which treat men and women as equals are better than those that don't.

Etc.

[Divernan]

4. Yes, particularly as to cultures' treatment of the poor, the elderly, women and children.

nt

[slackmaster]

66. I think you're going the right direction, but I'd drop the effort to enumerate every group...

...that could conceivably be oppressed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

7. The belief that some are better makes a helluva good excuse for war and colonialism.

As in, "Picking up the White Man's burden" and killing the those in the "backward" cultures for their own good.

[pnwmom]

13. And the belief that all are equal is an excuse for Nazi Germany. n/t

[Posteritatis]

17. Or the Taliban, or the Confederacy. (nt)

[Chan790]

64. or Khmer Rouge or Burma or Tamil or Jinjaweed. n/t

[Igel]

24. We still have precisely that attitude.

Well, less "white man's burden" and more "Western man's burden." Except that we're martyrs about the idea, and instead of killing those in the "backward" cultures for their own good we have to neuter ourselves because they're automatically assumed to be good.

Same belief, just reset the DIP switches to their opposite values.

[Nye Bevan]

40. Norway is ethically superior to Zimbabwe.

Live with it.

[Xithras]

171. You've just exemplified the danger in these kinds of comparisons.

It is incredibly easy to conflate governments with cultures.

There is, for example, no Zimbabwean culture. There is a Shona culture, a Ndebele culture, and about a half dozen smaller tribes with different histories and cultural practices spread across Zimbabwe. There is little correlation between the national borders, and the cultural identities of the people who live in Zimbabwe.

Norway is a little different, as most of the nations population self-identifies as Norwegian (politically, socially, and ethnically), but even in that nation there are exceptions. The Sami and Kven have cultural practices, traditions, and histories that vary widely from those of most ethnic Norwegians.

How does the culture of the Norwegians compare to the culture of the Ndebele? Which is more ethical? Can you name any Ndebele cultural practices without looking them up?

In many nations, there is a huge difference between culture and government...especially in nations that encompass multiple cultures within their borders. The simplest and clearest example of this is Sudan. There are two major cultures in that country. One controls the government, and one is oppressed by it. Would you state that Norway is superior to Sudanese culture?

[WinkyDink]

50. Why impute such attitudes to DU'ers?

[Turborama]

54. They didn't. No mention of DUers in that post whatsoever

If some DUers read those comments as pertaining to their attitudes that's their problem.

[WinkyDink]

56. Who is answering the poll?

[Turborama]

57. As I said, If some DUers read those comments as pertaining to their attitudes that's their problem.

[XemaSab]

58. Which culture do you think has a healthier view of the family?

Typical WASP culture or Hispanic culture?

I think that by judging the relative merits of different cultures one can see where one's own culture could improve.

[ZombieHorde]

113. Which beliefs can't be abused? nt

[Telly Savalas]

118. If no cultures are superior to others...

then a culture that promotes war and colonialism can't be any worse than one that doesn't, right?

Not that I'm arguing in favor of war and colonialism. To the contrary, I believe that peaceful cultures are superior.

[Marr]

8. Of course. And if you have any doubt, just remove borders from the equation and

ask yourself if the Audubon Society, for instance, is ethically superior to the Chamber of Commerce. Groups of people actually do differ greatly, and a system dominated by religious clerics or Wall Street traders is bound to have different ethical standards than one dominated by bureaucrats or scientists or educators or whatever.

If you want to argue that all ethical systems are equally valid, then, well... you're not really saying anything. In a vacuum, yes, I suppose they are. But they don't all do things equally well. If all you care about is making money, then Hanoverian England had an ideal ethical model. If you think a society should actually do things like help the people who comprise it, then Hanoverian England had a shitty ethical model.

[stray cat]

9. How many DUers do not think they are better than conservatives at free republic?

Are progressives in general any better than tea partiers or are they ethically and morally completely equal?

[LostInAnomie]

11. Yep. I know a lot of people like to play the moral relativist on here...

... but seriously, ask yourself: Are cultures refuse women education, property, or voting rights the ethical equals of countries that provide such rights? Are cultures that torture and kills gays for simply being gay the ethical equivalent of those where they are not? Are cultures that refuse adequate medical treatment to the poor ethically the same as those that provide care to everyone?

[Primitive Mind]

12. I absolutely agree...

Though I tend to go further. While it is difficult to objectively provide comparative measures to say measure one culture that developed in one set of circumstances against another that developed under another set of circumstances, comparisons can be made and reasoned opinions can be reached.

A culture that develops in an agrarian setting will differ greatly from a culture that develops in an environment with non-arable land. The freedoms that a civilian on land might enjoy could spell absolute disaster for the same civilian on a ship at sea.

The best objective that I can come up with is this. Does this culture extend the most amount of freedom to the most amount of people possible. Every culture falls short of that standard, but some come closer than others. Of course, this is a somewhat subjective measurement as well.

[Lisa0825]

32. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Primitive Mind]

79. Thanks N/T

[Poll_Blind]

14. Going on record, yes, most definitely. But all ethics are based on social mores and subjective.

PB

[ixion]

15. cultural relativism

Says that what the idea of 'ethics' means would vary somewhat between cultures.

[uncommon]

158. It's also ridiculous.

There are basic human rights that every person on this planet should have.

[The Philosopher]

16. Superior

for what?

[ZombieHorde]

25. For you. The poll is about your beliefs. nt

[The Philosopher]

42. Are you asking then

If I belong to a culture that I compare and find superior to another?

[ZombieHorde]

80. I am asking if any two cultures have unequal ethics, one culture being more or less ethical than

the other culture. You don't have to belong to either culture you choose to compare.

[flyingfysh]

19. I voted "yes"

Consider Rome: they went in for gladiator games, crucifixions, torture, and slavery, seeing nothing wrong with any of them. There were exceptions as far as being ethical, but the massive support of these atrocities weighs against them.

[Yeshuah Ben Joseph]

27. Oh, tell Me about it!

Got to experience that culture first hand. And second. And my feet too :(

[grahamhgreen]

20. No. Some geographic locations have better political systems.

[JNelson6563]

21. Democratic culture is far superior to Republican culture.

[Lyric]

22. If we lived in a world where anyone could leave a culture they didn't like

or at least propose propose reforms without persecution and bloodshed, then I'd feel more inclined to consider cultural relativism as an idea. However, we do not. We live in a capitalist, repressive world, where people who don't like the cultural status quo are often hunted down and made "examples" of by torture, execution, political oppression, social ostracization, or all four.

If the day ever comes that a person can (1) publicly disagree with the cultural status quo without consequences, and (2) leave that culture at will and be provided with free transportation expenses and a new job elsewhere...THEN we can start down the path of considering all cultures to be equal, because nobody will be "forced" (physically or financially) to participate in a culture they find abhorrent or morally wrong. Until that day comes--sorry but no, all cultures are NOT ethically equal. Not even close.

[rpannier]

23. Those damned horses need to stop standing when they sleep

It's unnatural.

[donco6]

26. What is culture?

I just think that's too vague a term to grasp for this direct a question.

[ZombieHorde]

28. The generally accepted behavior of a group; particularly countries, since I used countries

in my examples.

[Up Quark]

33. You can lead a horticulture, but

you can't make him think


:D

[Hannah Bell]

181. +100

[LWolf]

29. Other: I understand horse culture better than human on most days. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

30. The "no" voters have fallen into a tragic intellectual trap

The statement reduces to "all things are equally good."

If cultures cannot be compared in ethical terms then how do we have any sense of ethics in our culture?

What is our position from which to assess our own ethics?

It is an ethical sense built upon comparing ethics of different cultures.

Greece, China, Rome, Judaism, Buddhism, Christ, the Enlightenment, Nazi Germany, Sparta...

Nobody reading this is ethically neutral on all those things.

[Lost-in-FL]

43. or the "yes"

simply look at the world solely with western tradition colored glasses or have little understanding of cultural relativism.

No, relativist don't believe that "everything goes" but simply that every culture should be taken in consideration and the reasons for certain behaviors and ethics studied not only within ones cultures but all. It means to keep an open mind and not to be so judgemental of other cultures and traditions even when those traditions horrify us. In other words, relativists know that we humans are all equaly fucked up and because of that we should be more humble when looking from within ones culture.

Or... both yes and no's might agree on exactly the same things but from other angles.

[Bluenorthwest]

73. I know you are straight, white, and fairly well off.

Because only those who are speaking in theoretical terms could believe such nonsense. If there was a nation that would excute you on sight, vs one that would elect you to office, I doubt you'd see them as equal in any real way. In fact, I know that you wouldn't. Can you really say you'd flip a coin to pick being say, gay in France or in Uganda? Really? It would all be about the same? A toss up? Freedom and equality vs death at the hands of the state are the same to you?
Some words are just offgassing.

[Lost-in-FL]

75. I see you know me well.

It seems to me like a contradiction to judge me without knowing me and schooling me about injustice and unfairness. We don't live in a world of absolutes. It is healthy to look beyond what your bias let you see first before being judgemental.

[Odin2005]

104. Racism is wrong. Female Genital Mutilation are wrong. Slavery is wrong.

Misogyny is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Culture be damned.

If one does not agree that those are absolutely true then that person is NOT a liberal or believe in liberal values. Human Rights are universal and absolute.

If that makes me "arrogant" and "judgmental" I don't really rive a crap.

[Lost-in-FL]

108. That's your opinion based on the tradition you were raised.

Saying that there are no absolutes does not make me a bigot, racist, homophobic or insensitive asshole.


BTW, it can be argued that breast augmentation and varieties of surgical procedures done to enhance female beauty are no different than female genital mutilation. But of course, that's another topic that I won't see objectively discussed here.

[Odin2005]

109. Mutiliating little girls' private parts to satisfy a misogynistic society is EVIL.

Breast implants and other cosmetic surgery is voluntary and done by adults. Girls being mutilated have no choice in the matter. I am opposed to male circumcision and giving pre-teen children piercings for the same reason.

[Lost-in-FL]

111. Aren't breast augmentation procedures done to satisfy a misogynistic society?

First, is it really voluntary? It all depends on how one view the term "voluntary". Voluntary could be seen as a term that creates the illusion that would justify this practice for purely monetary reasons. This is of course my unprofessional opinion and although it seems as an exageration it can become the reality. That is why I say that things become not so black and white as we imagine.

[lumberjack_jeff]

145. How do bigger breasts enable a woman to cope in a misogynistic society?

"misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

If there's one word most often misused around here, this is it. I think the word you were looking for is "superficial".

Misogynistic societies invent the hijab, not silicone boobies.

[uppityperson]

126. The culture of raping females after/as part of war is ethically inferior to those that don't.

Show me I am wrong. Show me how raping females, infants to the elderly, after or as part of a war is ethically superior to those who don't.

[Odin2005]

138. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

:applause:

[uncommon]

159. But there ARE absolutes. They are called human rights, and everyone on this planet

is entitled to them.

And FGM is not breast augmentation. Although personally I think both are sad, FGM is forced upon young girls and is often done in an unsanitary manner to say the least.

[Odin2005]

34. Certainly. I have no use for cultural relativism.

Female Genital Mutilation is wrong. Slavery is wrong. Caste systems are wrong. Sexism is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Racism is wrong. Those are all elements of a society's culture.

[ZombieHorde]

81. I believe cultural relativism is a useful tool which helps anthropologists

be somewhat objective. Non-anthropologists have little to no use for cultural relativism.

[Withywindle]

35. Ethics matter.

The original indigenous cultures of the Americas weren't perfect, but for all their wars and raids and power struggles, I remain convinced that overall, there was a much stronger sense of ethics there than that exhibited by the Spanish and Portuguese and English and French invaders, who were motivated by money first and religious domination second.

I maintain that any culture that isn't based on slavery is superior to any culture that is--and I say this as someone who grew up a US Southerner.

What do "ethics" mean? Ethics mean empathy. Ethics mean ability to empathize with "others." If you want to know how ethical a culture is, identify the ones THEY consider "others" and look at how they are treated.

It varies a lot. Is it better to be a homeless person (of whatever color or gender or orientation) in America than a woman in remote tribal Afghanistan or a gay man in Uganda or a Roma in France? I don't know. They all are awful, and all those societies deserve harsh judgment for how they treat the people they devalue most. The best way to have a truly ethical society would be to not devalue anyone. That's what I'm working and hoping for.

But yes, some societies are clearly more ethical than others. Look at the societies with the lowest numbers of homeless and hungry, with the least bigotry against women and gays, etcetera. You'll find a lot of those are countries with a relatively high degree of "socialism" and strong social movements willing to keep the leaders in line.

[Nye Bevan]

39. To the DUers who voted "No"

You really believe that a culture in which women are stoned to death for adultery, and men are executed for suspected homosexuality, is not ethically inferior to a culture where there is no death penalty?

Or perhaps you hit the wrong voting button by mistake?

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Yes.

[undeterred]

44. The culture of Democratic Underground is superior to

those freepers. Send in the drones. :sarcasm:

[NuttyFluffers]

45. i don't believe in cultural exceptionalism. i believe in fragile humanity.

all cultures cannot be judged as monolithic entities -- they are aggregates of diverse populations of individuals, ever changing, ever evolving. cultural mores are often contextual creations that often live on beyond a normal generational cycle. but it is a sort of technology for human populations to adapt to circumstance, and not as easily nimble in readjusting to the times.

further, my personal morality may create a personal hierarchy for cultures with which i feel more attuned. however, i do not support the hubris that i am all knowing on how humans should behave for now and all time. i am an individual, i am frail, weak, and limited. i cannot speak for all circumstances that the human species can encounter and endure. i may have preferences, but my preferences in ideals are mere motes of dust in the long trek the human species has traveled through to this place. some ideas fail, some survive, and at some point -- outside the narrative patterns we craft to rationalize why things are the way they are -- existence does not care a whit about any order i may think up about what is or is not better.

but as human individuals, we are also free to aspire, disagree, and borrow...

[Turborama]

47. Agreed. Cultural exceptionalism leads to cultural imperialism and any real Liberal would know that.

This is insensitive and inflammatory flame bait. I've seen this poster's Islamophobic posts in the past and know exactly where their question is coming from.

[ZombieHorde]

82. Actually, this question comes from my anthropology class.

I agree cultural relativism is useful for anthropologists, but I don't think cultural relativism is useful for non-anthropologists.

This is insensitive and inflammatory flame bait.

Who am I being insensitive towards? Who am I baiting?

[Odin2005]

106. Saying FGM, misogyny, homophobia, and misogyny is absolutely WRONG is insensitive?

[Turborama]

123. Of course they are WRONG, to us. But that wasn't the question in the OP.

How can anyone objectively judge whether one culture is ethically superior in total than another? (I've come across a freeper trolll on YouTube recently who was using the word "superior" in relation to a discussion about American culture Vs the rest of the world and it really winds me up)

[Odin2005]

137. They are wrong everywhere.

Human rights are universal.

[Turborama]

177. I don't disagree. There are obviously some people who do, though. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.

My main problem is the use of the word "superior" as I've pointed out already. Especially when judging one country against another, as the OP did when they framed their question.

[Number23]

132. Ah, I think I'm getting some explanations here.

I have seen some other ugly posts from the OP recently as well. Thanks for your post.

[Lost-in-FL]

103. +1000

[tavalon]

46. That's way too simple a question for what is way too complex

Simple answer would be to say that ethnocentricity makes each of us questionable observers of other cultures, but then, some things transcend cultures or do they? You just put a whole college semester class into one question with three choices and heck, horses don't scare me.

[WinkyDink]

48. As a female, I perforce would say, "Yes."

I simply cannot countenance CULTURAL---not individual, not even religious---misogyny.
Sorry.
Or, on a less human scale, the CULTURAL destruction of endangered species.

Now, is someone going to infer that I'm placing AMERICAN culture on top? Because that would be poor reading comprehension.

[WinkyDink]

51. Agree with post #21, re: Democratic vs. Republican..

I simply don't buy the "we're all Homo sapiens sapiens in this Vale of Tears" reductio.

[melm00se]

52. there is a flaw here

ethics are not universal.

the key is what do you use as your measurement.

looking at an extreme (fictional)case: euthanasia. If you have a society that practices euthanasia for older people and the extremely disabled.

To an outsider looking in: euthanasia as a ethical violation of human rights. You have the right to life, how dare this society condone/practice this. therefor the euthanasia culture is less ethical than the outsiders

To an insider looking out: the foreign cultures condone and encourage the suffering of the infirm and old. That seems, to the insider, to be a harsh, uncaring and unfeeling culture that practices indirect torture. Therefor the non-euthanasia cultures are less ethical than the insiders.

[ZombieHorde]

83. "the key is what do you use as your measurement"

Use yourself. My question is about you, how do you see other cultures as far as ethics are concerned?

[melm00se]

136. I see

each culture as unique with it's own strengths and weaknesses but at the same time these same cultures do not occur in a vacuum.

Do I pass judgment upon other cultures? I try my best not to as the behavior of 1 culture is influenced by their environment and cultural psychology however, avoiding bias completely is an almost insurmountable task.

External cultures have, since the advent of more than 1 civilization (it takes 2 to form an argument), tried to influence and convert other cultures to "see the light" and the inherent superiority of one culture over another and that is done by peaceful acculturation or at the point of a sword.

[rug]

53. To say yes requires you to accept objective ethics, i.e. things are intrinsically evil or good.

[XemaSab]

60. And you don't?

To use a particularly inflammatory example, I think there are NO circumstances under which sexual contact between an adult and a five year old is acceptable. I think that's inherently evil behavior.

On the other hand, giving food to a hungry child is morally good (provided that you're not taking the food out of the mouth of another hungry person).

I think that there are things about which reasonable people can disagree, such as arranged marriages, abortion, eating meat, polygamy, the death penalty, and so forth, but I think that there are moral absolutes that can be universally agreed on, and these things can be used to look at different cultures.

[rug]

62. For the most part, I do.

As to your last sentence, do you think people can reasonably, and logically, disagree on things that are objectively good and objectively evil?

[Eryemil]

78. Accepting that morality is relative does not mean one is without morality.

I do not think that there's such a thing as an intrinsically good or evil act but there certainly are behaviors to which I react favorably and others to which I react negatively. When people state that morality is subjective, they are not necessarily saying that they are themselves amoral; it is a judgment on the nature of morality itself, not specific acts.

Human morality, as I see it, is a legacy of our evolutionary past. Most of the behaviors that seem uniquely human to most people are mirrored among our hominid cousins; altruism, sense of equity, empathy are all traits that are directly linked to our history as social primates. To be human is to be moral; pretty much all normal humans are moral creatures.

Ultimately, unless you can say with all certainty that all beings in the universe would consider a particular behavior to be "evil", you cannot say that it is inherently so. All morality as it might exist on Earth and elsewhere is ultimately subjective to the specific conditions which caused it to arise in the first place. Keep in mind that even on Earth, humans are not the only entities that could be called moral beings so you do not have to go too far to observe wildly differing moral standards outside of our own species.

To use your own example; you can say that sex between adults and children has been proved to cause harm to the child. If you believe that harming others others is not a positive thing, as most humans do, then it might automatically lead you to believe that paedophilia is not positive in turn. But morality is based on deeply ingrained, but vague, instincts that sometimes come into conflict with one another. "I believe harming others is bad, but. . ." Substitute the ellipsis for any of the hundreds of clauses that could be added to that statement:

Aesthetics. (circumcision, foot binding, neck stretching, scarification)
Honor. (sati, honor killing, seppuku)
Self defense.
Vengeance. (death penalty, caning & lashing)
Necessity. (torture, slavery)
Divine mandate. (Self-explanatory)

The interpretation of that "hurting others is bad" feeling can vary wildly depending on what each particular group happens to value most.

[slackmaster]

72. I accept objective ethics

Hurting people = bad

Treating all people with respect and dignity = good

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Yes. My culture is far superior to that of the US...

If you want me to count the ways, it'll take a hell of a long time, but I'll happily do it! :)

[ZombieHorde]

97. If you make an OP declaring your culture is superior to America's culture, PLEASE send me a link to

the OP. I would love to read the replies.

[Violet_Crumble]

179. I'll leave the threads simplifying culture to you n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. *Checks profile* *Agrees*

[Number23]

125. How very interesting. A person from a country that shows nothing but American movies

plays almost nothing but American music and has almost 95% of its television coming from America considers itself "superior" to America. When 80% of your popular culture comes from the US (with another 10% from the UK), how on earth do you feel in any way justified to call yourself "superior?" Why would one country so heavily emulate another country that is "inferior" to it?

In alot of ways, Australia is light years ahead of the US. In others, it is woefully behind. As an American woman of color I used to wonder why so much of the television in Australia came from America. Now I'm thankful that it does because if it wasn't for American programming on Australian television, I do believe that I could go an entire month and barely see a single person with melanin represented positively in any way in the Australian media. And don't even get me started on the lack of diversity in politics. I joke with my American friends back home that Australian "diversity" means showing white people with dark hair. And don't get me wrong -- I love Australia. But any idea that Australian culture is superior to American culture makes me scratch my head. Again, in many ways it is (much, much safer, and with health and educational opportunities for every Australian) and in other ways it's abysmal (50 years behind the States on opportunities for women, lack of racial diversity in every representation of Australian society, schools aren't that great) and in still other ways, it's about the same (large group of citizens in both countries who harbor deeply, intensely racist sentiment and are anti-intellectual).

So you and I have a very different idea of what constitutes cultural superiority. America has a long way to go in alot of areas, but Lord knows Australia does too.

[Violet_Crumble]

178. I'm not from a country that does that at all...

In fact, we've got quotas in place to ensure that there is a lot of local (that includes NZ) content on free to air television. We've got a thriving film industry, and the same goes for music.

Oh, and I was being sarcastic. Though I do find US culture absolutely horrid and to be avoided where possible, I find the whole 'our culture is so vastly superior to their culture' stuff to be simplistic rubbish...

[Number23]

190. Agreed. As unfathomable as it may be that there are some playing "my culture's better than yours"

some folks have decided to one-up the stupidity factor in this OP by pretending that people are saying that tyrants are good.

I'm beginning to understand why DU is in the toilet, why this OP has 0 recs, and why the level of knowledge and general discussion in the States is at an all time low.

I find the whole 'our culture is so vastly superior to their culture' stuff to be simplistic rubbish...

I do too. And what's funny is that someone not only thought you were serious, but agreed with you. Amazing. :eyes:

[CJCRANE]

59. Some ideas and policies are better for the common good

than others.

[slackmaster]

67. And the "common good" has often been used to rationalize policies that hurt people

So I'd be very cautious trying to use it as a standard.

[CJCRANE]

69. That's secondary to the main point I was hinting at

which is that cultures aren't monolithic.

Each country is a grab bag of conflicting ideas, traditions and policies.

How we rate each country ethically depends on where we place the emphasis -

on the conservatives or the liberals, the radicals or the reformers?

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ecstatic]

68. If the implication here is that the U.S. is ethically superior

The answer would have to be no. There's no telling how many people have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Sure we lost 3,000 or so people--but that is no reason to turn around and kill hundreds of thousands of people who had nothing to do with it.

Then we have shameful things that have happened in the past--the Hiroshima bomb, slavery, genocide, rounding up Japanese, etc. Not to mention the weapons we manufacture and tons of other things.

And, No, I'm not an America hater--I'm just not wearing rose colored shades.

Are there countries/cultures that can claim ethical superiority? No, not as long as they're depending on the U.S. to clean things up for them. A nation would have to have zero ties to the U.S. and other countries that have engaged in horrific acts, and also treat their citizens in a humane/fair fashion in order to be considered ethically superior. I can't think of any right now.

[slackmaster]

71. I believe ZH would be OK with you saying that Icelandic culture is superior to US culture

I'm just not wearing rose colored shades.

I doubt that ZombieHorde is wearing them either.

[ZombieHorde]

87. You are correct, thank you. nt

[ZombieHorde]

86. I do not personally believe the US is a particularly ethical country.

The examples you typed are excellent reasons for my belief, but I would also add health care, our penal system, and civil rights.

Although, the US did spawn Dungeons & Dragons and the modern zombie genre, that has to count for something. ;-)

[Rebubula]

160. Off Topic...

...but have you played DEAD RISING 2??

I am a zombie-aholic and LOVE that freaking game (love the 1st one as well) - but need significant time alone to play properly.

[ZombieHorde]

172. I have Dead Rising 2 on the PS3.

Driving the SUV through hordes of zombies is very satisfying.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

100. Why on Earth would that be the implication?

[H2O Man]

70. Yes.

Obviously.

[Douglas Carpenter]

74. perhaps, but it is not so clear cut or black and white

For example some cultures that are very caring to their elderly and their children and families are sometimes not so enlightened in other respects.

Other cultures which are more ostensibly liberal are sometimes cold and indifferent. Just as city life is usually more open minded, but also more indifferent.

If we take the example of American culture - America is very enlightened in many respects and has a kind of acceptance of heterogeneous diversity and spontaneous openness to new things and new ideas and a relatively high level of individual freedom, at least in the common western sense of the term. On the other hand America has millions and millions of people especially among the elderly and among societies "losers" and among children who do not fit in who live sad and lonely lives and will in all likelihood die alone - essentially abandoned and forgotten. This would be extremely rare in many societies which most of us might consider backward.

Thing are just not so black and white. This is not moral relativism. This is moral realism.

[ZombieHorde]

88. Interesting reply, thank you. nt

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

84. I think some are better than others.

Not that the U.S. is the pinnacle of culture (I hope not), but ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4587128

It's hard to defend some cultural practices.

:hi:

[mkultra]

85. isnt it culture that defines ethics?

so doesn't every culture have a tendency to believe in its own moral superiority?

[ZombieHorde]

89. Many Americans do not believe America is ethically superior to other nations.

Unless my punk albums are lying to me, many British people do not believe Britain is ethically superior to other nations.

Though I do agree many people's ethics are defined by their culture.

[mkultra]

90. Well, even if you consider that perspective, you must go beyond

and see that there are cultures within cultures. Surely those in the punk culture would consider themselves to be superior to the majority British culture and so on.

[ZombieHorde]

92. Good point. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. To a degree, it's a circular question.

The guy who takes pride in putting infidels to death probably believes in the ethical superiority of his culture.

But he's wrong.

[Tikki]

93. Can a culture where hypocrisy is both...

ethically and morally understated survive?

Answer is yes. But not forever.


Tikki

[ProudDad]

94. What an amazingly divisive "poll" question (n/t)

[ZombieHorde]

95. How typical of a horse lover.

Just joking.

I would like to think a group of adults could share their views on cultural relativism without flame wars erupting. Things are going well so far.

[ProudDad]

96. "Things are going well so far"

Obviously. :rofl:

[ZombieHorde]

98. Almost 100 posts and no deletes. Pretty good for DU. nt

[Lost-in-FL]

101. You spoke too soon. Check out post #65. nt

[ZombieHorde]

102. I just saw that, I have a feeling I just inspired a lot of alerts.

Funny.

[timtom]

182. I certainly hope not.

This is precisely the sort of measured discourse that is needed by all thinking and feeling people.

I salute you for having initiated the question.

[Nye Bevan]

107. So is that a "yes" or a "no"? (nt)

[Nye Bevan]

116. Yes. How DARE the OP ignite a debate on an internet discussion board.

He should stick to *non-divisive* poll questions. Are puppies cute? That kind of thing.

[Lucian]

105. The anthropologist in me says no.

And since I am an anthropologist, I say no.

If we were talking about governments, then I'd have a different answer.

[ZombieHorde]

112. I voted "yes," but I understand the anthropologist's situation. nt

[Nye Bevan]

115. So why does an anthropologist think that a culture in which women are stoned to death

is not superior to a culture where there is no death penalty at all?

I'm not an anthropologist so I guess I am having trouble understanding this.

[Lucian]

119. Because anthropologists believe that no one culture is superior to another.

No matter what's practiced. One always has to remain culturally neutral.

And cultures don't allow people to get stoned to death. It's government and religion that allow it.

[ZombieHorde]

122. Generally speaking, scientists are supposed to be objective.

An anthropologist's biases can corrupt his or her work.

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. That wasn't the question asked

"According to you, are some cultures ethically superior to other cultures?"

You can't talk about ethics without acknowledging biases. One of my biases is "human rights exist". If we accept that human rights are a generally accepted ethical principle, then objectively, the answer to the question is yes.

[H2O Man]

161. I agree.

The OP is a question about cultures, or social anthropology. It is difficult to consider cultures, without taking into account religion and/or politics, two closely related dynamics that this sub-thread attempts to take out of the question.

[ZombieHorde]

168. I agree, but I was referring to your question,

"So why does an anthropologist think that a culture in which women are stoned to death..."

An anthropologist gave an answer to your question a few weeks ago and I thought I would share.

[lumberjack_jeff]

147. Interesting way of putting it.

If you separate the question from any ethical framework, then no. There are either successful societies and failed ones. Since slavery supported the Roman empire for 1400 years, then that would seem to be the "superior" society, wouldn't it?

You can't remove human rights considerations from the question posed. There are absolutely societies which create better conditions for the people forced to live in them.

[Lucian]

169. Apparently DUers don't have an understanding of how anthropology works.

When one studies a culture in anthropology, you cannot assume one culture is better than the other. If you did, then there's no point in studying other cultures. You cannot have a biased view.

Do I think things like slavery, female genital mutilation, circumcision, mistreatment of women, etc., are wrong? Absolutely. But I cannot have that view when I'm studying a particular culture. I have to remain neutral.

[lumberjack_jeff]

173. Anthropology doesn't have anything to do with ethics.

Ethics has everything to do with the OP.

[H2O Man]

184. The OP isn't based upon

a study of an individual culture. It is a much broader question, having to do with a comparison of the ethics of all cultures.

Two of my favorite books that focus on the ethics of different cultures are Erich Fromm's "The Sane Society" (1955) and "The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness" (1973). A reading of either one removes any questions regarding if a cultural anthropologist can identify differences in various cultures' ethics, and if some cultures are more ethical than others. To pretend otherwise is to take the important idea of not approaching anthropology with a superiority complex -- the tendency to judge others based upon one's own behaviors -- to a lower level that misses what is most valuable in cultural studies.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

176. At which point how to you justify opposing e.g. female genital mutilation?

If someone says "it's my culture, yours is not ethically superior to it so stop trying to impose it" how would you respond?

[Touchdown]

110. White Man's Burden vs.

The measure of a society is in how it treats the least among them.

Not so black and white as many think.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

117. Standards change with education and equitable wealth distribution.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

121. Yes, and you'll notice the most ethical societies are the most socialistic ones.

i.e., Western Europe, Canada, Australia etc.

[HEyHEY]

124. Cultures? Yes? Races? No?

[Number23]

127. Interesting question. I've tried to get past my heebies (and jeebies) that the question provoked

As someone who has lived and/or worked in lots of different cultures, I don't see how anyone can say with all certainty that the answer to your question is yes.

There are some cultures that would stone a woman for daring to disobey her husband but they take great pride in and cherish their elderly. There are some cultures where women have the freedom to decide for themselves if and when they will marry, but are brought up to believe that their only value and purpose in the world is being thin and looking a certain way.

Some cultures are barbaric in their treatment of prisoners, but have created some of the world's most beautiful poetry and literature. Some cultures have created some of the world's most recognized and studied architecture and art, but the people there refuse to practice basic human hygiene.

There are distinct and very profound pluses and minuses to every single culture. There are no exceptions.

[ZombieHorde]

129. I agree every culture has its pluses and minuses, but not all pluses and mines are equal.

For example, the US has started two wars for dubious reasons and has tortured prisoners. What is the worst thing Switzerland has done in the last twenty years?

[Number23]

131. All pluses and all minuses are subjective.

No matter how hard you may try to put everything in a good or bad box, it is all relative and all subjective. Your perspective as an American, as a Westerner, as a person alive in the 21st century, etc. etc. etc. color what you consider to be pluses and what you consider to be minuses.

There are probably tons of miserable, unhappy people who want to change alot of isht about Switzerland. This worshiping of certain countries and cultures I will never understand. Someone from a particular country may think that the torture of prisoners done by the US is to be expected. Someone else may think that is the worst thing this country has ever done. Someone else may think that the US has done far worse things than start wars. Someone else may think those things are unforgivable. It is all relative.

We can fight things that we think are harmful in other cultures (ie female genital mutilation, women as chattel for their husbands, the executions of albinos etc.) without thinking that other cultures are "inferior." There are no inferior cultures as far as I'm concerned. That type of thinking is what has inspired genocide, racism, and colonialism.

[Turborama]

133. Your last sentence explains my main problem with this false dichotomy of superior vs inferior

If question number 3 had been: "This is a logical fallacy, I am unable to take part", I would have clicked that one.

[Number23]

134. In truth, that would have been the only correct answer to such a question.

[ZombieHorde]

140. "All pluses and all minuses are subjective."

I understand, the poll is asking about your subjective opinion. This is why I started the question, "according to you..."

This worshiping of certain countries and cultures I will never understand.

I chose Switzerland because I have not seem them in the news. I have no particular feelings towards that country.

Someone from a particular country...Someone else may think...

I am asking about you, I understand different people have different opinions.

There are no inferior cultures as far as I'm concerned.

Considering your view of ethics, are all cultures equally ethical? This is what I am asking. I agree with much of your reply though.

[lumberjack_jeff]

151. We know about all the minuses, but what were some of the pluses about the Nazis?

They must have done some seriously cool shit to make up for the minuses.

[Number23]

174. The Nazis would have never come to power if everything they did was evil

Read some history.

[WinkyDink]

183. Same with Pol Pot, I trust? And Stalin? Yes, tyrants always have a silver lining!

Something to do with "dogs and children."

[lumberjack_jeff]

186. Yup. Say what you want about Idi Amin...

... but the buses always ran on time. :puke:

[Number23]

188. You prove that the old adage "ignorance is bliss" is alive and well

If you can somehow conclude from my comment that I'm saying that "tyrants have a silver lining" then this conversation ends here. You and your Lumberjack friend can wallow in ignorance and stupidity together.

Well done.

[flvegan]

128. I honestly cannot believe the results of this poll.

Unless...I suspend my disbelief that DUers en masse understand ethics.

Yeah, that feels better.

[ZombieHorde]

130. I was also expecting more horsephobic votes.

I have often suspected there is a large anti-horse demographic on DU.

[timtom]

135. Unfortunately, in order to determine superiority of one culture

over any other, one has to appeal to a universal axiom -- a moral and cultural absolute.

Can anyone point that absolute out?

[ZombieHorde]

139. The poll is not really about other cultures, it is about your perspective on other cultures.

I am asking about your feelings towards culture and ethics.

[Baalath]

141. Of course some cultures are ethically superior to others

To disagree with that statement is to deny that ethics exist. You can not be ethical if you don't have ethics.

But the larger issue with most posters here, that are answering in the negative, is their confusion about the micro and macro.

I believe my culture is superior to Nazism. That does NOT mean that I am ethically superior to every person who was a member of the Nazi culture. That would be an unethical bias, to hold every member of an involuntary group accountable for the actions of the group. I am not able to claim personal ethical superiority on the sole basis of being a member of an ethically superior group. There are most certainly members of my group that are not ethical, I could be one of them.

To believe it is wrong to be able to say A is better than B, in stead saying all actions and beliefs are equal, is to be confused to the point of lunacy.

[ZombieHorde]

142. Excellent points. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

150. +1 and welcome to DU. n/t

[bemildred]

144. Ethics is part of culture. It does not exist independently. Reality has no ethics and no morals.

Those are things that people do in the context of a culture. All cultures have ethical and moral standards. I prefer some to others, but that is just my opinion, it is not a fact, and it is not objective either.

So I would rephrase the question as: "Which culture has ethical and moral standards that you like best?"

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. Is slavery ethically neutral? n/t

[bemildred]

163. I believe it has often been contentious, so no, it would not be neutral.

But what I said was that it was subjective, and the historical facts bear me out. We had the Civil War partly about that issue, that seems pretty un-neutral.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. The emerging consensus view is that slavery was an ethical negative.

Humans are hardwired with an ethical framework, it's not all about your programming.

http://www.amazon.com/Hardwired-Behavior-Neuroscience-Reveals-Morality/dp/0521860016

Ethics, like our perceptions of sound or color, are generally held in common. Injustice, persecution and cruelty may be common, but humans have an inborn aversion to them.

[bemildred]

166. Hmmmm ...

From your link:

The striking results of this research, he notes, indicate that hormones, drugs, genetic abnormalities, injuries and traumatic experiences all have profound effects on brain structure and functioning, and hence on moral choices; indeed, some experiments imply that our actions are initiated by the unconscious brain before we are consciously aware of them, raising the possibility that our sense of moral agency is a retrospective "illusion."

[Baalath]

154. Ok so it's not objective.

Are you able to make a subjective decision on a the superiority of one culture over another based on their ethical system or beliefs?

"Reality has no ethics or morals"
What does that mean? It sounds like globbity-nonsense equal to me saying, "Moon rocks have no morals on Tuesdays".

I would even go so far as to postulate, to be unable to judge one ethical standard better than another is itself unethical. If you see evil and are unwilling to call it so, what good are you? Debating what is evil and what is good, ethical and unethical, is a different matter and not unethical. But to claim that a distinction can not be made is.

I can say that genital mutialation is unethical. Another person can say it is ethical. Sorry, I am going to say they are wrong. I am making a subjective decision and to be unable to do so, to be unable to stand up for those who might be mutilated, is wrong. Time after time history has proven that saying nothing and doing nothing against what is wrong is WRONG.

[bemildred]

167. Your various questions:

Are you able to make a subjective decision on a the superiority of one culture over another based on their ethical system or beliefs?

Sure, why not, I just said it is subjective, not that you can't do it.

"Reality has no ethics or morals"
What does that mean? It sounds like globbity-nonsense equal to me saying, "Moon rocks have no morals on Tuesdays".

You are right, that isn't much of an argument.

I would even go so far as to postulate, to be unable to judge one ethical standard better than another is itself unethical. If you see evil and are unwilling to call it so, what good are you? Debating what is evil and what is good, ethical and unethical, is a different matter and not unethical. But to claim that a distinction can not be made is.

Since I am not asserting that one cannot judge - your premise - the rest of your assertion is moot.

I can say that genital mutialation is unethical. Another person can say it is ethical. Sorry, I am going to say they are wrong. I am making a subjective decision and to be unable to do so, to be unable to stand up for those who might be mutilated, is wrong. Time after time history has proven that saying nothing and doing nothing against what is wrong is WRONG.

Well, I was with you there for a sentence or two, but then you slipped into the same sort of thing I was doing with "Reality has no ethics or morals".

[lumberjack_jeff]

155. A color blind person can't make a distinction between red and green.

Does that mean that color does not exist independently? Reality has no color?

What kind of person can't make a distinction between individual misery and freedom? Anarchy and human rights?

Ethics is a part of culture. That doesn't suggest this is a circular argument, indeed it is evidence OF the ethical problem with a culture which feels its willingness to kill infidels and unchaste women is a reflection of it's ethical superiority.

[bemildred]

165. Color is something people do, it does not exist independently.

It is true that electromagnetic waves have different frequencies, but to see color - as we sometimes do - requires a human eye, it is how the eye "interprets" certain electromagnetic waves.

I did not say one cannot make judgements, I said that that is a subjective activity. I know, I know, it's "moral relativism". But I would suggest that "moral relativism" creates a higher ethical and moral standard than "moral absolutism", since it requires one to examine his own cultural ethics and morals rather than just criticizing someone else.

[Enrique]

146. it's more useful to talk about governments

I look at your questions about Japan's culture and Saudi Arabia's culture and I say to myself how much do I really know about those countries' cultures? Approximately zero. Judge how ethical they are? Pretty useless for me to do that.

But I do know something about their governments, especially Saudi Arabia's. Saudi Arabia's government is brutal, and our government treats them as a major ally.

[closeupready]

152. Well the Aztecs committed human sacrifice of virgins and young people.

So from that standpoint, I think the people of Central America are better of without it, yes.

So my reply would be "yes".

[SOS]

156. Homo sapiens are basically the same everywhere

Reasonably well-behaved when justice and security are dominant in the society.
Violent, hairless apes when threatened or given the opportunity .

[uncommon]

157. Yes, of course. I don't buy into cultural relativism - right is right and wrong is wrong.

I don't respect the "choice" of any society to subjugate women, children, minorities, or to perpetrate unspeakable violence against its own people.

[timtom]

175. So, basically, your moral absolute hangs upon your own

beliefs and opinions. Which is, ipso facto, cultural relativism.

[Hannah Bell]

180. I think this kind of wholesale comparison of "cultures" is invidious bullshit.

[clyrc]

185. What a can of worms!

I was just telling my husband a few days ago, I was much more of a cultural relativist before I move to the Middle East. It almost doesn't matter what I think intellectually when I see things that horrify and disgust me, things that strike me as wrong and unjust. But before I take any kind of action, I ask myself, what is the absolute proof that I'm right to be horrified? I can't take just being horrified as proof that I should be, because then anyone who was horrified over anything would be justified in acting. For example, I am sure that my Western ways horrify some of the people around me. I have close friends who do the arranged marriage thing, and they think allowing children to date is immoral. On the other hand, I've gotten into heated arguments with a close friend over whether or not a man can hit his wife, as well as other issues involving women. We are both equally sure we are right, with our respective cultural backgrounds providing both of us with arguments. My criteria for judging rules is whether or not they are unfairly detrimental to individuals, but my friend is much less concerned about individuals. It's hard to have the kind of argument where you convince the other person that you are right when you don't agree on what is ultimately important.

I don't have much of a choice but to think about and judge the culture I live in. It isn't an intellectual exercise, it's something I have to live with. Under those circumstances, I've had to realize both that I will get disgusted, and that it is my own biases that make me disgusted. That hardly leaves me on solid ground, but there are times when I have to rant, anyway. So far, I haven't satisfied myself on this question. I try to be fair, as I see fairness, but I have to admit that my version of fair is not some bedrock universal that makes my own beliefs the only correct ones.

[lumberjack_jeff]

187. You don't agree on what is ultimately important because of programming.

Your friend's social programming causes her to be "less concerned about individuals". That is a manifestation of an ethically challenged society.

In essence, you and your friend disagree about the ethics of her society because she's an unfortunate product of it.

Men shouldn't hit their wives. Period. That's not a bias, that's a bedrock universal which makes your beliefs the only correct one.

[GSLevel9]

189. a BIG f-in LOL to option # 3 nt