Illegal immigrants refrain: 'Leaving America is not an option'

[Blaze Diem]

Persuading workers like Gimenez that is in their interests to leave appears to be one of the biggest challenges facing US authorities, as they try to bring the country's 12-million strong illegal labor force out of the shadows.

In factories, markets, car-washes and laundromats, illegal workers in Los Angeles Hispanic community the same refrain: "Going home is not an option."

Gimenez is one of the thousands who put their lives in the hands of human-traffickers known as 'coyotes' to sneak across the United States' southern border with Mexico.

Often immigrants trying to cross the desert are robbed or murdered by bandits and rival gangs. But the rewards on offer for those willing to take the risk are immense.

Gimenez, who paid 3,000 dollars to a smuggling gang to help get him across the border in Arizona in 2003, sends back 400 dollars a month to his wife and two children in Mexico.

His salary of just over 1,400 dollars a month is roughly 10 times what he would earn for the same job in Mexico.

"I would love to go back and live in Mexico but I can only make money here," Gimenez said.

"For me the important thing about the legislation is if I can visit my country or bring my family here legally without the danger of them having to try and cross the border."

For other illegals, finding the money required to pay for legal status under the new reforms is problematical.

"If I could pay 5,000 dollars to get residency or a work permit without leaving the country I would pay that because it's roughly the same amount you have to pay to the 'coyotes'," said Sigfrido Villalta, a worker in a car wash.

"But when you only have 1,000 dollars a month it's hard. Obviously I want a residence visa. But I need the ability to pay for one, and there is also the possibility they could penalize the employer.

"http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070520/lf_afp/usimmigration_070520224157;_ylt=AmzBhvy4It9hX.ktL6VeZ1SMwfIE




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not an option??? So when my friend illegally grows pot to help feed his family stands before the judge and declares, "Your honor, jail time is not an option, although what I did was illegal, Sir, I was just trying to make a better life for my family."
Do you really believe the judge will ofer him a free pass? Doubt it.

Why? because its illegal.

Though, understanding the plight of the illegals, I also want American Citizens to have the same rights as illegals in demanding repercussions are simply, "not an option."

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Give them amnesty and they won't be illegal any more.

Problem solved.

Of course, they'll still be brown, they'll still "spread diseases" and "grow pot", and speak in heathen tongues.

And I think that's what the real "problem" is to begin with.

[candice]

98. as in the late 80s, and then grant it to the next wave....

just get inside the country and wait for the next amnesty. The laws are a joke, and we do not have the population density throughout the country that we could have if the gates were open for all.

[Jim Warren]

2. Now that's a post I'll K&R nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. Reality is, and one of them put his finger on it is

that this is an employer problem

It is in some ways a zero sum game

If it cost the employer MORE to hire the illegals than to hire legal residents and citizens, do you think they will hire the illegals?

As long as it is more cost effective to hire illegals, the practice will continue

And no politico on either side is willing to face that little fact. Oh and if they did, the price for some products would go up (lettuce comes to mind)

I don't blame illegal aliens, not all from Mexico, just the most visible. I blame our government who does not, and will not, penalize employers for hiring cheap labor

[lyonn]

9. We cannot afford as a country to support another country like Mexico

by allowing them to flood our country where the U.S. tax payer pays for their schooling, health care, etc.. It sure isn't the corps. that hire them that are paying the price. I feel like we are not getting a break in our prices at the grocery store or in the price of housing that hires illegals, etc.

When people claim that those of us against this mass migration/immigration are racial is pure nonsense. How dare people assume someone is racial because they are concerned about the welfare of our country.

Do we hear anything from the Mexican govt. about how concerned they are about their citizens? They have farming, oil and factories thanks to FAFTA, ok, make that NAFTA.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Fine the employers

YES IT IS THAT DAMN SIMPLE! (Not that you could sell that to the chamber of commerce, but hey it IS that simple)

If there are no jobs, nobody, whether they are coming from Eastern Europe, or Mexico or Guatemala, will come

NO JOBS NO IMMIGRANTS, what is so difficult for people to understand?

By the way... the majority of the illegals are not brown, nor do they speak Spanish, they are the most visible

Many of the illegals are white, and speak English, even if with an accent, and have come from places like England, France, but mostly Eastern (and far poorer) Eastern Europe

They just have an EASIER time hiding

The face is brown and Mexican and Catholic, YES there is quite a bit of fear of these people and the arguments made today against Mexicans were made WORD FOR WORD about Italians and Irish one hundred years ago.

How 'bout them apples?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

31. "the majority are not brown, nor do they speak Spanish"

Got a link to back that up?

This doc from the Pew Center seems to heavily dispute that. (See page 4)
http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/46.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. As I wrote as of 2001 INS published that data

and it was not what they tell you today

You have to wonder, after 911 and the creation of homeland security, border enforcement stopped publishing the data

I will be reaching for that tin foil hat if you get my meaning

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Here is your data

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=931740&mesg_id=932711

And that is the best you can get these days

you should be asking why are they making it so difficult to find

[lyonn]

34. Do we have statistics on the number of illegals that enter this country

yearly and where they are from? All we hear about are those from South of the border.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

39. See my link in post #31. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. They do, they even used to publish them

INS did, now under homeland security they no longer publish them.

But that is one of the major unwritten stories

One example, remember when Walmart had 16 Ukrainians in the store who were illegal? Tip of iceberg and most of these folks came with tourist and student visas

Hell anybody who overstays any visa is ilegally in the country... and that happens quite often

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Oh and here are some resources for you

http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html

And on enforcing laws against employers here you go

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back605.html

And though I don't particularly subcribe to the CFR, here you go from a right wing perspective

Read with care and fair warning

http://www.cfr.org/content/publications/attachments/ImmigrationCSR26.pdf

[EFerrari]

What you feel and reality are two different things.

These workers contribute a net gain to this economy.

And next time they elect a progressive, we need to let him be seated instead of interfering with their elections.

This is the BushCo scam: Subvert Mexican elections so the people will keep having to come north. Then, use their labor at slave wages. Then, make them the scapegoats.

Pretty neat trick, isn't it?

[Horse with no Name]

79. I've said this before and I will say it again

The Mexican government has fucked it's citizens over like ours has done.
We dump wheat in their country making theirs virtually worthless so farming it isn't an option.
The entire wealth of the country is concentrated into the top 1%.
There is no social safety net--if the people are hungry and cannot work, they are just hungry. There aren't food stamps.
They are not unwilling to work--for fuck's sake they cross the desert risking their lives to come pick your fucking lettuce. If there was work there, they would do it.
Mexico is a mirror image of where our country is headed. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the folks in the middle are being squeezed downward.
We should empathize more with our southern neighbor and realize that we might be in their shoes at some point trying to sneak across the Canadian border just to find work to feed our families.
If Mexico's problem gets solved, the corporations that depend on the illegal labor are in trouble. THAT is why we will ALWAYS have people coming across the border.
It is NOT by accident, it IS by design.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. I'll add some history here

there used to be a safety net, not as extenseive but there was

teh Social Security network of hospitals (which the PAN wants to privatize) as well as the Social Security Fund, who Calderon watns to privatize

But just like here this did not start with the right wing PAN folk, but neo liberal economics, which affects us too, started with at least (hard core that is) De la Madrid, who was also a crook (par for the course I guess)

And NAFTA was sold down there as a promise for jobs in Mexico

After fucking up that economy the corporations are going to China in droves.

Not that many folks understand this history

Oh and the reality on the ground, there is a real pressure towards revolution down there

[Horse with no Name]

82. I have no doubt they will be picking up their guns before we will

But we should embrace our southern neighbors because the time will come when it would be beneficial to ALL of us to work hand-in-hand.

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Oh I agree

one major example of where people could work together, is have the UNIONS on both sides of the border work together

You will not see that happen because many up here, union or otherwise, don't even know there are unions down there

[Quantess]

126. Well said!

[laureloak]

22. We did fine before the illegal Latino invasion and we will again

when they leave.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Answer me how many of those illegals you loath

are from Eastern Europe?


And are you going to start fining the employers?

Your racism, by the way, is showing

[Madspirit]

73. I didn't

I'm a 53 year old Texan. I have never had a time without illegals in my life, as my friends. I want them here and I will help them however and whenever I can.

Your racism is disgusting. This country would actually be sorely lacking without them.
Lee

[Book Lover]

88. "The latino invasion"... my, my

If you are really all fired up over the fact that people enter this country without correct paperwork, then I hope I can count on your support regarding my efforts to get the British and Canadians the hell out of US publishing. Why is it that every publisher I have worked both in NYC and SF for has hired Canadians and Britons without correct paperwork? Whatever the reason is, these people are taking copy editing and proofreading jobs away from hard-working Americans. I hope I can count on you regarding my program to get these foreigners who can't even spell "color" correctly the hell out of my industry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. But but, according to some folks

it is only brown, non english speaking, and mostly catholics who have come to the US...

And yep this is also happening in other industries as well

It is just that they speak English and are white, not a good symbol for these folks to latch to

[shanti]

35. exactly!

put the blame where it should be! :thumbsup: corporate interests control this issue totally.

[Greyhound]

54. It is rare when we agree, I'm glad that this is one of those times. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Yep it is one of those rare times

:-)

[matcom]

4. Employers should pay for their Visa's

problem solved.

[snappyturtle]

5. Do you have a link for the Gimenez story? I could use one...

I've read several stories like this one a few days ago on Yahoo but I didn't "favorite" them. I've just gotten my response from Senators Hutchinson and Kennedy...still waiting for Cornyn. I could use Gimenez as an illustration of what I think will happen to this immigration bill should it become law. The congresscritters are not thinking this through....no dah! Why would immigrants take the chance of losing their jobs wile away to touch base and pay a fine?

[Blaze Diem]

11. Link is up , just read this today

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070520/lf_afp/usimmigration_070520224157;_ylt=AmzBhvy4It9hX.ktL6VeZ1SMwfIE

[Little Star]

6. Sad that our Government won't

help them regain work in their own country.

[blondeatlast]

21. Sadder still is that their government would prefer they not come back.

I support employer sanctions, but this is also a border political issue. We need to force the Mexican government to deal with its own grinding poverty and unemployment is we are ever going to fix this.

It sin't gonna happen though as long as we let the huge employers off the hook.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. WIth the PAN in power

and neo libral ideology having a hold of Mexican politics for the last thirty yaers... good luck

But the unrest in Mexico is almost of historic proportions, and I personally fear a 1910 type of social explosion, which will only increase this with refugees

Blame me for actually follwiing up what is going on down there

Oh and shh... here is a great secret, the border has been sealed a couple times that I am familiar.

They both had to do with wars we fought, and it was done on the Mexican side using the army

It cannot be sustained, but the border has been sealed

[AndyA]

7. I guess the think that prevents me from having much sympathy for them is the very first word:

ILLEGAL. As in ILLEGAL immigrant. They are not in this country legally, and that starts them off breaking the law right away.

Yes, I do understand things suck back home. But that does not make it right for them to start life anew by breaking the law in another country. If they are going to break the law, where do they draw the line? Do they comply with mandatory insurance for their cars? When they don't it drives up insurance costs for the rest of us who do obey the law.

I don't know what the answer is, but a "break the law and be given a pass to do so" isn't the way to fix it. Will they ever understand they have to obey the laws, like them or not? Where is the line drawn?

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Ever driven over the speed limit?

Not come to a full stop at a stop sign? Jaywalked?

Cause if you have, you are just as "illegal" as an immigrant crossing the border without papers. It's a civil offense, just like a traffic violation.

So it's incorrect to call them illegals. I prefer calling them "human beings".

[lyonn]

49. Apparently since there are so many here illegally no one tries to get

a green card like in the old days. It would be interesting to know how many from South of the border apply for green cards yearly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Quite a few

thousands that is

The wait for a Mexican citizen now is around 15 years for the haering that will determine if you even qualify.

It can be shortered with a special visa... but even then it is cut down to only 12 years

[laureloak]

8. No amnesty. Enter LEGALLY or leave. n/y

[High Plains]

10. So you want to deport 12 million people?

I must have missed that chapter in the progressive handbook.

These people are here NOW. They are integrated into our economy and our communities. Some of them have children who are US citizens. Hell, some of them have grandchildren who are US citizens!

Regularize their status, welcome them into our country and our labor movement and our Democratic Party. That's what I say.

[Blaze Diem]

13. Imagine the power your millions would have to affect change..

within your own country. Don't think it can be done? You have to love your country THAT MUCH.

We do it right here on DU every freakin day. Constantly keeping check within our government & how it affects our society. You think this country hasn't had its batles to keep its government from running amok? What we are up against with the Bush administration is worth everything we do here. I have seen your millions march in our streets. You obviously are realizing that change CAN happen by organizing and demanding so.
Would the 12 million illegals and those of like minds return to Mexico by the millions and apply the same methods of organizing in protest, to affect change in your own corrupt government? No its not effing easy. Ask the generations of American citizens who have worked lifetimes and fought to keep their nation in check.
Question is, how much do your millions really love their homeland. Is it worth organizing, as you have learned to do here in the USA? Is it worth building a country where your generatons can grow and live?
I would like to watch such an evolution. And without a doubt, you would have the eyes of the world watching and assisting your fight to build a better nation.

Take your millions and work for a better nation rather than abandon it to corruption.

Make your own country a peaceful and successful place on this planet.
You have millions and millions who have learned how to do it, and know that it can be accomplished.

Its what we do every day, here on Du.

Just a thought.
Blaze

[High Plains]

25. These people have made their choice: They came here.

As for the suggestion that they return home and fight for justice there, I must ask: Is that what your ancestors did? Are you writing from Europe?

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. I can tell you

I came legally, and I know just how long it takes to become a citizen

But our friend here, I am sure Native Americans, aka "real americans" are waiting for all of us to go home...

;-)

What amazes me is that the arguments made today about them filthy Mexicans were made about them fifthly Italians, Jews and Irish oh a hundred years ago, word for word

[Blaze Diem]

43. please don't use the "f" word. This posting is about illegal vs.

illegal. Save the hate for another post.

Maybe you can refer to the point I made in reference to my friend's illegal issues and how it affects him and his family. Compare it to the argument about illegal vs. illegal.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. What hate

What the fuck are you writing about?

And in case you wonder, I am very familiar with this issue from a PERSONAL perspective.

Perhaps yuo should take your blinders off and realize I am on the side of humanity.

[Blaze Diem]

94. ???? Hateful aren't you. I have not, nor has anyone here referred

to any race as "filthy".

I too am an advocate of humanity. And when I read of a visitor to America expecting to be given a pass for his illegal actions and stating it arrogantly as "not an option", and I hear the big waaaa reasons for claiming they now deserve instant amnesty because they have childen as citizens...I just can't help but wonder what the judge in my friend's legal case, would say to such a claim.
Its about US law. illegal vs. illegal..why one and not the other.

Blows me away to think that there is even an argument at all.

"..but..but your honor..I couldn't feed my kids without the small income from the sale of pot. I was careful and kept it sway from the children..it was a way to afford both food and electricity. Jobs are scarce since I am unskilled, and wages are low. I meant well and intended to use the profits of this illegal action for the good of my family. "

My friend is facing 5 to 10 yrs. He'd like to see his kids grow up too.

That's what this post is about.
How is he suppose to feel when he reads comments like the one you are defending.
"not an option"???? This guy isn't even a citizen!!

That's what I am "fucking" writing about.
How can you NOT get the point? Take your own blinders off.
tks

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. I get the point

and you are comparing apples with oranges

Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor

Possession of drugs (above a certain quantity) is a felony

Is that screwed up? Yes, the war on drugs is a failure

But you are comparing apples and oranges

By the way, under any national and international code citizens and non citizens have rights.

But I am sure you knew that

Oh and as I said, this is an EMPLOYER problem, chiefly. Remover the economic reason for the migration... and most people will stay put

How about we ENFORCE those loves that requires stiff fines for EMPLOYERS or do you have a problem with that one?

By the way, your friend should be nice to the judge. If he is not, judges tend to throw the book otherwise

And yes, under the present code he commited a crime...

I could sound like a right winger and tell your friend that he should not done the crime if he was not ready to do the time... but I will not

The war on drugs has raesons for it, beyond just your friend, just as the turning a blind eye to ilegal employers. Try connecting dots...

[Blaze Diem]

116. No you don't.

but carry on with your rant, while I continue trying to at least understand what both sides are fearing from each other. Understanding what we are all afraid of, is also a basis for human advocacy.
Never mind. I'm sure you speak from what you know to be true.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. If you say so

why don't try connecting some dots?

[laureloak]

19. Yes. Load them on trucks and take them back to the border.

If they can't respect our immigration laws then we don't have to respect them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. So are you for fining the employers

and even confiscating their property, per the 1986 law?

Lets be honest here, you need more than just them brown people violating the law for this dynamic to work.

Oh and that includes gardeners at places you probably go to

And should we add jail time for those employers who are goss violators of this law (Walmart comes to mind)

[Greyhound]

68. They were granted amnesty to help kill the labor movement. Pay scale is tied to scarcity

when there is a glut of a given skill the rate paid for that skill goes down. We have seen the pay rates halved for people that do the jobs most commonly held by illegal immigrants, additionally, there are many companies that will not hire citizens because they don't comply with rules and regs for how they must treat their employees. Illegal residents will not complain, so the company is safe.

Fine the companies for first offenses, criminal prosecution for repeats, and seizure for any subsequent occurrence's.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. OH PLEASE! Some of the immigrants have children who were BORN HERE! They are U.S. CITIZENS! What

do you suggest we do with the children? Your solution is NOT a solution! We cannot just round up 12 MILLION people and send them back to where they came from/ That's a bit simplistic...don'tcha think? :eyes:

[laureloak]

16. Yes. They should all leave. They CAN be transported!

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Do you even understand the term logistics?

I am not going to even touch international and national law regarding citizenship.

Just the logistics, 'splain to me how exactly you are going to do this.

[progressoid]

28. Blackwater?

have to quickly add this :sarcasm: but I bet there are some who would advocate it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Trust me, they don't have enough people

and yes, some would also advocate lining me against the wall and opening fire

After all I came, legally mind you, from one of those hated places

;-)

[progressoid]

53. Yep

I had a "discussion" about this with some family/friends (of all political persuasions) about this. A few seemed to think it would be no big deal to do. Until I pointed out that we could barely manage to save Americans in New Orleans...who wanted to be found...out in the open...sometimes on rooftops...waving at authorities.

Oh well.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. Well, we get a lot of boxcars...

and barbed wire, and machine guns, and german shepards, and camps where we concentrate all of them in...

[sheerjoy]

26. Exactly. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. they should ALL leave?

You were just asked about American citizens, and you said they should leave?

My goodness gracious. The cat's out of the bag now.

[Swamp Rat]

59. Manifest Destiny II - The Redux™

Now do the math - multiply those photos by 12 million.

[Madspirit]

74. I would prefer

You left.
Lee

[in_cog_ni_to]

89. NO! They are CITIZENS of this country! Whether you want to accept that or not..it's the truth! IF

you want THEM to leave...then we should ALL leave because this country belongs to NATIVE AMERICANS...NOT us! If you're born here, you're a citizens. DEAL WITH IT! Lose your hatred. It will destroy you. They are innocent children who didn't ask to be born here, but were. This is the only home they know. They are citizens and they get to stay.

[Forkboy]

102. I'd rather YOU left. One person is very easy to transport.

[Blaze Diem]

37. Why did they take the risk of having children here, without

themselves protecting this from happening, by becoming citizens in the first place?
-----
You think that judge would buy that argument when sentencing my pot-growing friend?
No.
The judge would sentence him to 5 yrs in prison, AWAY from his children who he was just trying to afford to feed when he grew and sold pot, although he knew it was illegal at the time.

Where's your appall and demand for mercy in this case. Or does that only apply to other people who commit illegal actions in this country?
Seriously, I'd like you to explain your justification for one and not the other.

hmmm..you think this man will miss his children too? you think it will create an enormous hardship when the kids are left with relatives?
Dad's not going to be around for a long time. At all. Now multiply that by the thousands of kids whose American citizen parents are in our prison system for doing something they knew was illegal.

If your millions aren't interested in uniting by the numbers to affect change in your own country, then maybe you could show your love for this USA, by marching for change that will positively affect all citizens in America. Not just your race.
Did I say the "race word? Sorry but maybe its you that have seperated yourselves into a racial category. As far as I know, from living here all my life, America is about many races, & beliefs, all living under the direction of one government.

Tell me why there should be no consequence for illegal actions.
Having children isn't going to keep my friend out of jail.

[Madspirit]

85. Complex Thinking

As someone who has many illegal friends...Texan here...and as someone who smokes pot and thinks it should be legal... I have mercy for BOTH.
Lee

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. Accept it. They are citizens. It's in the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES!

U.S. Constitution - Amendment 14


Amendment 14 - Citizenship Rights

1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

[JANdad]

108. Point of parliamentary procedure sir....

Pot possession is a CRIMINAL offense...undocumented alien is a civil offense...

[eagler]

66. The children are certainly free to return to Mexico with their parents

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. Yes they are, but they are citizens so they don't have to. I Know! We can build MEXICAN ORPHANAGES

just for them! Yeah! That's a solution! How much would it cost to build hundreds of orphanages, pay to feed and clothe them and educate them? :eyes:

This hatred on DU is SICKENING! I expect it from FR, but NOT DU.:(

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Which is why we should remove the "illegal" from the immigrants.

Although the proposed law doesn't go nearly far enough in granting amnesty, it's probably the best we can hope for.

[laureloak]

17. Reagan took us down the amnesty road and it paid off with more

and more and more and more illegals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. What you say we START ENFORMCING THE PART OF THE

LAW of that 1986 bill

10,000 smackers per ilegal per violation per EMPLOYER?

If we make it so expensive to hire ilegals, you think corporations in love of cheap labor will continue to hire them?

Be honest here.... you think people will come if there are no jobs?

[Lance_Boyle]

38. What of those who are already here illegally?

12 million unemployables... so after we start fining the hiring corps. $10,000 per hiring violation, is it OK to deport the illegal aliens then? If not, what do we do with 12 million unemployable people who don't qualify for social services? I'll begin with a modification of Mr. Gimenez' starting point - amnesty is not an option.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. You will not have to deport anybody

you cannot get work, you leave

It is truly basic Classical Economics

[Lance_Boyle]

48. I wish I could believe that.

Might be more likely to happen if a portion of that $10K fine went to providing transport back to country of origin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. So you are telling me that you would stay

in a place even if you cannot find a job?

That is the reason they came... so if they cannot find a job, pray tell me why would they stay?

The animus for straying is gone.

It is classic economics, not that trickle down crap better known as voodoo economics

What you should be asking is... why for heaven's sake are these laws NOT enforced? And in this matter it does not matter who is in power, well actually it does

Bush cut down internal border enformcement beyond the bone, and has chosen to look the other way as millions straem into the country. I think they have fined a total of five companies since 2001... and they were mostly symbolic, not even close to the max, aka 10K per ilegal

[Lance_Boyle]

63. inertia. ;-)

I believe that inertia would keep a large portion of the unemployable in place. Having a friend or relative with legal status means a place to stay. Having a kid who's a citizen by birth adds mass. I just do not believe that a mass migration of 12 million people would follow strict enforcement of the existing law. I do, however, believe that the existing law should be enforced - with the maximum penalty set as the default. And I would not be at all opposed to a portion of the fine being used to repay deportation costs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. They would go home, that is the logic of economics

that is why they migrated in the first place

Now global warming will add a layer of complexity to this, that nobody is even considering

But you saw one mass migration, you will see another

[EFerrari]

45. Reagan also made sure that their home countries were unlivable

and so insured the trek up north.

Are you familiar with Iran/Contra? Reagan waged war on democratic governments in Central America. He made damn sure that democracies there failed. Half of the undocumented workers here now are from Central America.

Really, there is a bigger frame than just blinkered, nativist fear and loathing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. Do yuo want some stories from the front lines?

:-)

[EFerrari]

51. Honey, I was and am on the front lines. Thanks!

:)

[Greyhound]

140. Not to pick nits, but this was done long before Raygun. It was a time-honored

tradition going back nearly 100 years before his maladministration. The origin of the term "banana republic".

[Greyhound]

69. and more relevantly, helped to kill unions. A win-win for the corporations. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. And why the law is NOT enforced

[EFerrari]

105. Very true. No wonder they still worship him. n/t

[Wiley50]

44. Not an option for me either. And I was Born Here

When I applied for disability, SS deliberately left off the date on my claim form and then said that I couldn't collect the SSDI that I had paid in for for 30 years. Instead I only qualified for SSI, currently $623/mo.

Besides the money, a person on SSDI can leave the US and still keep getting their check. A person on SSI
can't leave the country for over 30 days or their checks will stop.

Can you imagine how much farther $623/mo would go if I could live in Mexico or Guatemala?

I want out of here so bad I can taste it.

This country has a whole lot of bad karma about to blowback on it

LET ME OUT!

[Greyhound]

50. To the Greatest with thee...

Of course you understand that you are racist scum and should be shot, oh wait we don't like guns either, in that case you should be executed with a lethal overdose.
:kick: & R

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. Is there any news out there that this is anything but a Mexican problem?

Because it sure does sound like the only group these laws apply to are Mexicans. Why not Irish? Why not British? Why not any other nationality? Is there any article out there that tells us how these people feel about being deported?

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Becuase it is far easier to identify the "brown skinned"

you and I know very well that there are plenty of Europeans in this ahem problem, but they rarely get mentioned

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Nobody talks about building a wall around the Atlantic.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Now from an engineering sci fi perspective...

:-)

[EFerrari]

109. Really. At least then we could keep our shoes on.

[progressoid]

70. Sooo...you support our antiquated marijuana laws?

I'm not sure I follow your analogy, but you seem to be advocating a strick law-n-order solution. So, I gather you want your friend to be arrested for growing pot, right?

Easy solution: dial 911. You might get a reward too.

[treestar]

72. When you're talking about people who are that poor, how can you

play the victim?

It's unseemly.

What have these people done to harm you? Nothing. They just keep the price of vegetables and car washes down.

They wouldn't come here if there weren't jobs open to them; the Americans who want those jobs are fictional - they would be easier to hire if they existed.

As for the legal/illegal crap, I have zero sympathy. There are plenty of Americans committing real crimes, and this is just a civil violation, the only penalty for which is deportation. And I don't believe for one minute you wouldn't do the same in the same situation - the average American I'm sure would feel entitled to go to another country if that would make them more money.

[robbyrob79]

76. I disagree

Would you illegally enter another country for more money? I don't really know anyone who would do that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. You do not know people who are desperate enough

that is the problem

This is not a uniequely American problem

It is happening in Eestern Europe, and it is also happening between India and Blangladesh, just to give two examples

There are several to be found in Africa as well

If you were desperate enough you just might

[Book Lover]

80. Then I take it you never met that one of your ancestors who came to the US

for what was in all likelihood that very reason? I'm not accusing anyone in your family of entering the nation with incorrect paperwork, but I am wondering what prompted your ancestors to come to the US.

[robbyrob79]

117. Interesting you should ask that

As strange as it seems, my family originally came from the UK in the 1630s as indentured servants. At least one side of my family anyway. The other side came over in the 1850s from Switzerland to seek their fortunes here in the states.
I guess the point I was making is that would you, knowing what you know, move to another country illegally for monetary purposes, knowing full well that if you get caught, you'll likely be sent to jail or sent packing back to where you came from?
My problem with illegal immigration is just that, its ILLEGAL. Yes, these folks are doing what they believe is best for their families, but unfortunately for them, it is against the law to come into the US and start working without the proper paperwork. Families who come to the US illegally and then have children are really creating a huge problem for themselves too, because if they illegal parents get caught and sent home, their children would stay in the US, because they are american citizens.
What disturbs me about this is that people blame the system for breaking up these families, when those who started the families knew full well that they were living here illegally and putting themselves at risk by doing so. I think that we need to warn people that if they're here illegally and start families that in all likelihood, if they get caught as illegals, their families will be broken up because of citizenship laws. I think it would be a good deterrent.
The problem here is that we're forgetting who the victims are. The victims of illegal immigration aren't those who come to this country and willingly break the law and live here illegally. The real victims are their children, who face an uncertain future if their parents get caught and sent home and the american public, who appreciates low prices, but they don't seem to understand that we end up footing the bill on the back end of things a lot when illegals fall into the public healthcare system.
All I really want to see is the rule of law, punish those who hire illegals, encourage economic growth in Mexico, and step up border security. If we make it harder for illegals to find jobs, encourage the growth of decent paying jobs in Mexico, and make it harder to cross the border, then we can end the immigration problem.
All of these compromises, 'guest worker programs', amnesty and other namby pamby business really fail to address the REAL issue. The REAL issue is that illegal immigrants are criminals. They violated the law when they entered this country illegally. If we want to have any kind of rule of law, we need to make sure that we enforce ALL of our country's laws.
This will mean that yes, many goods which we've become accustomed to buying for super cheap will become more expensive, but if you think about it, that means keeping that money here in the US and feeding our own economy, instead of sending it all back overseas. It may seem mean to say what I've been saying, but the thing is, would you grant amnesty to child molesters? drug dealers? murderers? These people are all criminals too, and some of them are 'victims of their circumstances'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. It is a matter of law, but you are crying up the wrong tree

you are going after the ones who committed a misdemeanor because the system is set to let the REAL CRIMINALS, especially after repeat offenses, go scott free

Sorry... we don't see eye to eye on this... black and white does not work in the real world

Now what you should do is ask why are they using a scapegoat now (and yes brown people are scapegoats, since they are visible), and why is the immigration bill so friendly to the chamber of commerce who got what they wanted, aka cheap labor?

Start asking those questions, when you are done connecting dots, you will not like the picture that emerges, after all Z visas are noting less than serfdom or slavery by any other name.

[robbyrob79]

124. I completely agree with you on this

Z visas are a load of crap. What I think really needs to happen is to streamline our immigration process (yeah, good luck with that, I know) so that we can permit people to come to the US and work, but at the same time we need to make them taxpayers and subject to all of the labor laws in this country. I've got a feeling that the guest worker program is not going to do this.
I guess the way I see it, the way that its working isn't granting amnesty to illegal immigrants so much as it is granting amnesty to companies that employ illegals.

[Madspirit]

86. I Would! I Would!

If I saw it as the only real way to make enough money to support myself and my kids and my parents and my spouse...none of which I really have, of course I would. Jeez. You're talking about the poorest of the poor trying to make a better life for themselves.

As a Texan I have plently of illegal Mexican friends. How many do you even know...to feel you have a right to judge them and their motives and their lives and what they do or why they do it? How many?
Lee

[robbyrob79]

118. I'm not the one judging

The law is judging their actions and motives. If you want to live in this country, you really need to play by the rules and not just flaunt them, you know?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

121. Do you obey all the rules?

When was the last time you broke the law?

[robbyrob79]

122. Nobody obeys all the laws

But I do know when I am breaking them, and should I get caught for it, I would expect to receive the punishment that goes along with that law. Just because I occasionally speed or something like that doesn't mean that its okay to enter the country illegally. A broken rule is a broken rule, and if you get caught, then you should expect the proper punishment for breaking that rule. Its not like these folks think they're in the US legally, you know?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

123. Oh, you speed!

That's much more dangerous than entering the country without all the proper paperwork.

Odd that it's good enough for you, but when brown people do it you've got a problem.

[robbyrob79]

125. Please don't play the race card

Criminals come in every shape, size, and color, as do illegal immigrants.


The point I was trying to make is that if I exceed the speed limit, I do so knowingly, and if I get pulled over for it, I know that I can expect a ticket. If you come into this country illegally, whether it be swimming the rio grande, riding from asia in a cargo container, or coming in with false paperwork, you know that what you are doing is illegal. If you get caught in your crime, you know that the penalty for being in this country illegally is getting sent home. That's a much more severe punishment than the ticket I would receive for speeding.
I guess I would have to ask what you think a good solution to this problem is. We can't fall into the disrespect for the rule of law that the Bush administration has and simply throw up our hands and tell people "Well, it was illegal what you did, but its okay, you can stay here, we're not going to punish you at all". That's not a solution.
So tell me, what do you think we should do about it?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. The race card? This is a game to you?

Obviously, it's not about rule of law, Robby. You're a criminal yourself.

So what's it really about?

[robbyrob79]

128. I guess there's a difference

between exceeding the speed limit and violating immigration law by entering the country illegally. I expect that if I get caught speeding that I will receive the punishment for that crime, just as an illegal should be willing to accept that if they're caught here, even after starting a family, that they will be sent home.
I just don't see those who are knowingly committing crimes as victims. You CHOOSE to enter the country illegally, and by doing that, you choose to accept the punishment for doing that, should you get caught. That's the point I'm making. Do you think illegal immigrants don't think that what they're doing is illegal?

Not to say that I'm not sympathetic to the plight of poor people around the world, but we do have a system to legally allow workers into our country, and that is sadly broken, inefficient, and horribly underfunded. If we could fix that, get everyone onto the system so that they become taxpaying residents of this country, and so we can make sure that their rights as workers are protected, then we wouldn't have this problem.
As it stands, we have millions of people who have come into this country without following the rules we've established (which yes, do need to be changed) to make sure that both the interests of the immigrant and the interests of the US are protected. If I come home and you're sitting in my house 'illegally', the first thing I'm going to do is tell you to get out. From what I'm hearing from you, I should instead say "Oh, hi there, I guess you live here now too, I'll pay you 3 cents an hour to pick the toejam off of my feet so you can send the money back home to your family".
Our system is broken, and it needs to be fixed somehow, but granting legal status to all those millions who came into this country illegally isn't in any way, shape, or form fair to those who have been waiting for years to be processed through the system and come here legally.
Your argument is saying "Well, you've broken a completely different and unrelated rule, so neener neener, you have no right to say anything about anyone else who breaks any other law". So yes, I have received speeding tickets, and yes, I did feel that that was a fair punishment for my breaking of the law.
That still doesn't make it right for me to do it, just as it doesn't make it right to enter the US illegally.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. Yeah, there's a difference.

Speeding is worse, since that can actually hurt people.

So what's the real reason you don't like immigrants?

[robbyrob79]

130. I have no dislike of immigrants

I would just prefer that people enter the country legally so they can become contributing members of american society, instead of some sort of illegal subculture that makes abuse to much easier. If everyone who was an immigrant had some kind of legal status, then their rights could be properly protected. If you're here illegally, you have no type of status, and the government has little authority to do anything to protect you, other than to give your employer a slap on the wrist and possibly deport you to your home country.
And like I said in my last post, it is unfair to those who spend years trying to get to the US legally. I've got several friends who have been trying to get family members from the Philippines into this country legally, with resident alien cards and greencards. Part of the reason that it took almost 20 years for this to happen is because INS (now ICE) is so overloaded with cases like it that there is a terrible backlog. What really needs to happen is our system needs to be made more efficient so people can legally come into this country, get their proper paperwork, and become contributing members of society so you can be given protection under the law from unfair labor practices, sexual slavery, etc etc.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. Obviously, you do.

Obviously this "rule of law" business isn't important to you.

"If you're here illegally, you have no type of status, and the government has little authority to do anything to protect you, other than to give your employer a slap on the wrist and possibly deport you to your home country."

Oh! So then you're in favor of amnesty!

[robbyrob79]

132. I'm not in favor of amnesty

In an ideal world, you would write INS, pass through a vetting process to make sure that you had a basic understanding of the english language (no, I'm not all for making english the official language, but it is definitely detrimental if you come here and can't speak the language that the overwhelming majority of people do), a basic understanding of how our government works, and an understanding of your rights as an immigrant worker and potential citizen.
The idea of amnesty, to use the example you used before, is like saying "Well sir, you were speeding, but since you're already going that fast, you might as well keep it up" instead of "What you're doing is against the law, and the law says that the punishment for this is that I'm going to write you a ticket and you have to pay a fine." Like I said before, I don't have a problem with immigrants, but just like everything else, it needs to be done within the bounds of our legal system. I wouldn't expect to be granted amnesty for driving without a license, because I'm already driving and sending me to jail for it would be detrimental to me.
Yes, it is kind of a harsh way of looking at things, but if you want to take advantage of things that america has to offer as a country, you should do it within the bounds of what is legal. If you do it illegally, then you're subjecting yourself to the punishment for that crime, which is being sent back home.
Our immigration system is badly broken right now, like I explained before, where someone can wait for years for permission from our government to become a resident. If we make it easier to legally come into this country and actively enforce immigration laws, we can improve things on both ends. We can create a system where it is easier to come here and become a contributing member of society, pay taxes, be granted a legal status, etc and also increase enforcement for those who choose to go around the legal system and come into this country illegally.
What to do with the 12 million illegals in this country already? That's a good question, I don't see sending them all back home as a solution that would be viable, but I also don't think that we should say "Well, you broke our laws, but we'll let you off this time". That's not serving justice where justice is due.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

133. If we gave amnesty, they wouldn't be illegal anymore.

So then your whole "illegal" problem would be solved.

So what's the real problem?

[robbyrob79]

134. The real problem

Is that by granting amnesty, essentially what we're doing is eliminating the need to punish employers for employing illegal immigrants. It does nothing to stem the tide of illegal immigration, as a matter of fact, it would encourage more, because they'll be waiting for the next amnesty to come around.
Would you grant amnesty to drunk drivers, child molesters, murderers, or terrorists? These people are all criminals too, but if we grant them amnesty, they're no longer criminals.
Should we continue to encourage people to come into this country illegally, or should we work to reform our immigration system to allow people to more easily come into this country? That's the real issue here.
My person problem with granting amnesty is its like saying "You flaunted our immigration laws, you came to this country illegally, you've paid NO taxes, and you're sending all of your income back out of this country, but that's okay, we don't care if you obey the law."
The other problem is how do you determine who is granted amnesty and who isn't? Is there a deadline, and all illegal immigrants that enter the country after a certain date are suddenly subject to different laws? Do we then register these 12 million undocumented immigrants somehow? How can we make sure that these people who are granted amnesty become productive members of society? These are all questions that have to be answered before I can support any form of amnesty for people who broke the laws of this country to come here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. If we granted amnesty, they wouldn't be illegal employers.

"Would you grant amnesty to drunk drivers, child molesters, murderers, or terrorists?"

My opposition against drunk drivers, child molesters, murderers, and terrorists isn't because it's against the law.

So you tell me why you don't like immigrants, I'll tell you why I don't like child molesters.

[robbyrob79]

136. I'm simply saying

That we shouldn't reward criminal behavior. I don't care what country you come from, you need to obey the law.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

137. What?

"I don't care what country you come from, you need to obey the law."

You just said upthread that you don't obey the law.

[robbyrob79]

139. I also said

That if I don't obey the law, I expect that I will be punished for doing so.

This isn't a discussion about me, this is a discussion about the issue at hand. Should we be rewarding criminal activity in this case? If that's the case, do we continue to reward it forever?
Should we just let anyone who wants to come into this country come in, including criminals and those who just seek to use our meager public health system? To me its a matter of paying taxes. If you're going to come to this country and work and enjoy the benefits of living here, then you need to pay your taxes. If you're an undocumented immigrant, you're enjoying the benefits of living here (to an extent, I agree, due to the fact that they're illegal, they're sort of a shadow society so they don't get to enjoy all of them) without contributing to the common good.
That's my main beef with illegal immigrants. I also really think that it is a bad idea to reward criminal activity in ANY way, ANY type of crime. I don't get rewarded for speeding by getting a free pass to drive however fast I want, you know?

[robbyrob79]

75. I have to agree

If you come to this country illegally, then you are breaking the law, and you deserve to be put through the justice system and have whatever punishment the legislature has come up with for breaking said law. Yes, many of our ancestors came here under possibly illegal circumstances (although I do have to admit, my family has been in the states since 1630), but does that mean that in this day and age, we still need to accept them, and allow a second class of citizens to be created?
Remember, these illegal immigrants are generally hired at low paying jobs with no benefits and often do not pay taxes. They live outside the system for the most part. Their employers aren't helping them contribute to america by paying taxes, and when they fall ill, they're forced to use the taxpayer funded public health system.
I agree that employers need to be punished harshly for employing illegals. There are several companies around here who routinely employ illegal immigrants and get raided every couple of years. Economically, it makes for sense for these companies to pay the fines and keep hiring illegals than it does to hire actual legal workers.
Now, that being said, what REALLY needs to happen is that we need to repeal NAFTA, which has done more to hurt Mexico than anything else, and has worked to really hurt the american working class and the standard of living that they (myself included) once enjoyed.


So here is my take on a solution.

1. Crack down on those who employ illegal immigrants and make it prohibitively expensive for them to risk employing anyone illegally. This will decrease the value of illegal labor, and it will serve to help give jobs back to americans and those legally able to work in this country.

2. Enough with the free trade business. Free trade simply means that its much cheaper to manufacture goods in countries that don't have labor laws or environmental laws. We need to being imposing tariffs on countries that pollute heavily, and countries who have unfair labor practices. This would include China, India, a lot of southeast asia, and Mexico.

3. Since a large percentage of our illegals are mexicans or other folks from latin america, we should put together aid packages to give those countries incentives to keep their people at home and earn their money there. This would also require that some oversight be given to the US in these places to ensure that labor practices are fair and that industry is done in an environmentally compatible way. Up until this point, it has never been economically viable to pay workers a decent wage or to install any kind of pollution prevention devices on any heavy industries in these developing nations.

4. We need to help encourage other governments, particularly those in countries where a large number of illegal immigrants come from, to discourage people from trying to come to the US illegally. This can be done by creating some kind of oversight with the mexicans to make sure the border is actually patrolled from both sides. The same can be true with other countries where people smuggling is a common thing.

If we follow these steps and a few more that I only vaguely know about, we can really cut down on the problem of illegal immigration without having to give amnesty to those who came here illegally.

[Generator]

78. How many Americans have $5000 cash they could give to stay in

this country right now? How many have that in the bank account? I'm lucky enough to-a few years ago I was not. That's why people use credit cards, if we could afford the $2500 to see Grandma-we would pay that up front. (airline, hotels, food etc.) Come on. How long does it take to save $5000 earning $1000 a month? I haven't made a salary that low since the eighties. Back when apartments were $200 a month.

It might as well be a $50,000. It's not realistic for those at the lowest end of our society. I'm sure some will try-but it took us a long time to save $5000 for our first down payment on the house, and that's when my husband was making $50,000 a year. And we had one car at the time. We didn't live extravagantly. His job was not accessible by public transport-it was a necessity. I don't know how the poor make it, I really really don't.

Of course I understand, the people born here DESERVE to be Americans. They don't have to pay nothing for the privilege, risk their life dying of thirst across the border to be a maid for Mr. & Mrs. Orange county. Another way of looking at: It's a fine for being ambitious. The lazy ones are still in Mexico, no? It's a fine for making it through. It's a fine for breaking a law, that never mind, THE LAW is all that matters. Oh yes, America, country of laws. But only for the poorest.

Of course, many countries require cash up front to live there. Canada wants a hefty sum in your bank account if you choose to live there.

But to ask this of the working poor, (and that's the only reason they come here-to work) who have been here for years and years already, is just like a poll tax. If you can't pay it, you don't deserve to be here, you aren't really a part of the society. Your history as an "illegal American" counts for nothing. As usual, all American capitalists care about is their fee.

Once the illegals start really paying taxes, shouldn't that help? HEY maybe they can fund our next war. That's the ticket.

[datahead]

84. WOW! this is amazing!

I've spent the last few days reading post about this issue, and I find it very hard to believe what I've read. It's really saddens me that people can be so predigest. Here's a few comment that I have.

1. First off. Not all Hispanic people are criminals, furthermore, not all immigrants are Hispanic!
Living in Southern CA. I see allot of hard working Hispanic people that are solid members of the community. Both legal and illegal alike. These people have been trying for years to get proper documentation and citizenship for years, only to hit a wall of bureaucratic B.S., or better yet a person that's under paid with to much authority that can't remember where or what they did the day before, or what they did with the application they filed last week.

2. What about the people that have been here for years?
Some illegals have been here for 30 plus years trying to become legal (See comment #1) their children and grandchildren live here without documentation due to the the fact that this government cant seem to process a postage stamp much less documentation for citizenship.

3. (And this is the one that burns my butt the most!) Not all illegals have diseases, or are fruit pickers, House cleaners, Maids, etc. Most (Not all mind you, but.) are upstanding members of the community that work hard to feed their families, and are for the most part with the exception of not being citizens are good and honest people.

Just my opinion, but when I hear.. "ship them all back" or "They are all no good" or my favorite thread on this topic is "Of course, they'll still be brown, they'll still "spread diseases" and "grow pot", and speak in heathen tongues." it really burns me up to think people can be so shallow..

I agree we have to find some sort of reform, and I think in the least this is a step in the right direction. I'm not sure if this is even going to work, but at least it's a something. But please people stop and think a little or at least take the time to remember we all have our bad apples.

[Madspirit]

87. Actually

"they'll still "spread diseases" and "grow pot", and speak in heathen tongues."

I think Bornaginhooligan said that and he was being facetious. He is very right on about THIS issue. He was making fun of the people who spread that kind of racism. I promise.

I see they still haven't gotten that zero post thing fixed for you. Kind of a drag.
Lee

[datahead]

93. I hope your right.. I'll re-read it.

I really try to see the good in people, but that one kinda raised the hair on the back of my neck.. And yes the zero post thing is still there.

[Madspirit]

97. You Would

You have to read his other posts on this including in other threads. I promise and believe me, I would not be defending Bornagin unless I KNEW I was right...<g> He is not a friend of mine.

He feels no need to use the "sarcasm" emoticon. He thinks it detracts from the sarcasm...<g>
Lee

[Forkboy]

103. "He feels no need to use the "sarcasm" emoticon. He thinks it detracts from the sarcasm."

I totally agree with him on that one.It does detract from it.

And upthread he was definitely being sarcastic...quite effectively,imo.

and btw.... :hi:

[Madspirit]

106. Hi Forkboy!...n/t

[RL3AO]

95. Sure you can leave. The door...er, border is over there.

[Deja Q]

96. In a single link followed by some very strong commentary:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x933287

Isn't it even fathomed that the Hispanics (since that's the only group people care about when it comes to immigration so I'll cave to this pathetic level too) who come here LEGALLY are being told "it doesn't matter, you can do whatever you want that is illegal. We want you more than our own." Now that's a message only a crook would love. And that sure as hell hurts a LOT of people who came here legally and who were born here legally.


Americans are not getting some of these low paying jobs because they are deemed "OVERQUALIFIED". The jobs we are losing to other countries (whose economies allow $4/hr jobs to be pennies from heaven) cannot be compensated by such work.

Indeed, with the amount of corporate ilk saying "Americans are stupid" while saying we're overqualified for jobs, something downright bizarre is going on. Want globalization? Fine. Let every country have a standardized rate. Businesses in America are encouraged to standardize. Products sold are touted with "standardizations". So let the cost of living and wages match, worldwide.

Right now it's grossly imbalanced. And everybody except middle class America is grossly prospering. The rest of us are treated like gross feces plopped into a toilet. It sure as hell feels that way.

It is not about race, it's about wage and cost of living inequality. Anyone who can't see the obvious is a fool and a tool. Especially when those who use the tools talk about "the rule of law" all the time. Another non-sequitur, if not at the very least a double standard.

[Aristus]

99. Gimenez is not making a legal argument in front of a judge.

He's explaining the impracticality of returning to Mexico to a reporter.

There's a difference.

[trail1312]

101. For what it is worth

This is my first and more than likely last post.  I enjoy
reading the political discourse from many sources.  This does
include du, freerepublic, nro, moveon etc.  I have made it
through many discussions with being satisfied enough to just
read and digest the different points of view. 

The only time I voted in my life was in 2004 for Bush.  I
thought it was important enough at the time to put my name on
a candidate (I was eligible to vote in 92).  I have always
thought the great republic could survive anything.  Bush’s
support for amnesty has seriously shaken this belief.

To fall back on a bumper sticker slogan…Impeach Bush.

[Forkboy]

104. THIS is the issue that makes you want to impeach him?

Gitmo,Abu Ghraib,more scandals than a lifetime of Jackie Collins novels,an entire world that hates us because of his ineptitude,a war that has cost almost 4000 American lives and almost 3/4 of a million Iraqis...and THIS is the issue that pisses you off?

Oy vey :eyes:

[Madspirit]

107. Wow

...and if there is anything at all that Bush has ever done right in his entire life, it's the amnesty issue. ...and I'm a Texan. I have many illegal friends.

Voting for Bush...BLECH. He's a war monger, a pig, a bastard and stupid as dirt.
Lee

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. This is what it will take for you to impeach the bastard

nothing about torture, internal spying or lying the country to war

Who'd thunk!

[trail1312]

110. The point being…

The two party system is jacking the American people.  The
thread concerning democrats giving bush the funding bill
without a timeline has incensed du, while immigration has
motivated the likes of freerepublic.  Both now want to impeach
bush.  I have read interesting points on both.  Both are
moderated boards which suppress discussion.  My main concern
with immigration is that both sides are using it for political
gain.  

Just imagine at the end of the day that du and freerepublic
now agree to impeach bush.

[JVS]

111. I guess this means that Pelosi can put impeachment back on the table

[trail1312]

112. That is exactly what it means

There is more support for it than ever from what I can tell.

[Imagevision]

113. Dealing with Illegal immigrants is like Bush bringing Democracy to Iraq neither will happen

[Canuckistanian]

114. So, immigrants should 'stay the course'?

Well, if it's good for the Commandante-for-Life, it must be good for everyone.

[EFerrari]

138. (Where is the best place for me to sneak into Toronto?)

:(