Build many small, community schools and reduce all class sizes.

[callous taoboy]

These two steps alone, research has long proven, would fix many of the problems in education today. Case in point: I teach in an elementary school (1st through 5th) with a total enrollment of 987 kids. There are 8 teachers per grade level. The size of our school alone, I am certain, is preventing us from reaching the highest level on the academic rating scale. We managed to claw our way to the second highest level two years ago, and we will claw until our hands are bloody but will likely never make the highest level because of our size. Fifteen miles away is a small community with a small community school with grades 1st through 5th. Their total enrollment is just over 100 students. They have been "exemplary" every year in the 10 years I've been here. There is no disparity between the two schools in the quality of teachers, and in fact the other school has had lots of turn-over of staff.

This is why I get tired of teachers getting all of the blame for underperformance. A little help, please.

[Davis_X_Machina]

1. Gas and diesel prices...

...will drive many districts in that direction. All the consolidation drives of the last thirty years are predicated on cheap transportation.

You'll need math-science-art teachers, and English-history-music teachers, and gym-math-Spanish teachers, of course. Distinctions like 'elementary' and 'middle' and 'high' schools will have to fall. And that's a massive obstacle in certification, teacher training, etc.

Still, as Brad DeLong says, the only school that works, really works, is Socrates on one end of a log, and a student on the other end. Everything else we do that isn't that, is a compromise, or a sell-out.

[callous taoboy]

2. Excellent reply!

[BeFree]

39. Fuel

So why aren't local governments getting their act together and making bio-diesel?

Don't they know that it is Islamic diesel carrying their kiddies to and fro?

There is, IOW, a Mullah in every tank.

[Davis_X_Machina]

40. We're burning locally-produced wood pellets...

...in the school furnaces, for heat and hot water. But there's nothing turn-key for the buses, not yet, not this far north.

[AndyTiedye]

3. It is Pretty Clear That Proposition 13 And Similar Measures Elsewhere Are to Blame

You can't have good schools if you aren't willing to spend the money on them.

[Jankyn]

4. I'm with you on this...

In grade school in the small town where I grew up (granted, this was 40 years ago), I never had more than 20 students in a class (and usually less).

It's the teacher/student ration that makes the difference! Ever wonder why homeschooled kids do so well on spelling? Because the teacher/student ratio is so low!

A lower teacher/student ratio means the teacher can be on top of each child's progress and identify their needs early, then bring in parents and whatever extra help is needed. It's also a big boost in solving behavior problems.

How did we get good results in a small, relatively poor school district? Low teacher/student ratios, a decent library, and involved parents. You don't need technology (though kids do need to be computer literate, I suppose; still, if they're literate, they can BECOME computer literate). You don't need a media lab---we didn't even have televisions in the classroom until right around the time of the moon landing, and then there was one for every three rooms, and we all had to take our chairs next door.

You need a low teacher/student ratio and access to books, paper, pencils, crayons, and a chalk/whiteboard. I've never met a teacher who couldn't do a good job with access to books, basic supplies and 20 kids or less in his/her classroom.

[callous taoboy]

30. +1

[Recursion]

5. This is the idea behind charters, n'est-ce pas?

Decentralize things, make education decisions more locally in smaller settings.

[callous taoboy]

9. I don't want my tax dollars funding religious indoctrination.

[Recursion]

11. What does that have to do with charters? NT

[callous taoboy]

12. Check out madfloridians journal. n/t

[EFerrari]

14. The idea behind charters now is to funnel public monies into private hands,

no matter what the purpose was when they were first proposed.

[Recursion]

15. Yeah, yeah, the corporatists are coming and will eat us all

I have yet to see these fabled for-profit charter schools. When I see one I'll worry.

[callous taoboy]

19. You have no idea. Corporations have their claws out right NOW, and are sinking them into public ed.

My school recently bought into a curriculum program for science. We bought thousands of boxes of what were labeled science materials and I shudder to think of the cost. Guess what was in those boxes: bags of sand, bags of pea gravel, paper plates, plastic and styrofoam cups, plastic water pitchers, modeling clay, a box of baking soda, a bottle of dish detergent, 3 golf tees, a box of swabs, a packet of sand paper, etc. Shit I could have picked up (and have picked up at the store in the past) for probably 1/100th of what we paid this company.

Do some hoemwork.

[Recursion]

20. Public school makes stupid spending decision

Film at 11.

Plenty of companies make educational materials. Convince your school to pick a better vendor next time.

[callous taoboy]

24. Yet public schools still out-pace charters on academic success

and financial solvency. I did see that film at 11.

My district makes 3 wise decisions for every 1 poor one. What's your beef, exactly? And I noticed you didn't really respond to my argument that corporations are at the ready to, well, sell us a bill of goods at the very least.

[Recursion]

31. I didn't see what that had to do with charter schools

People keep conflating "charter schools" and "corporations" as if they are the same thing. For one thing, charter schools are required to be non-profits.

Now, I remember back in DC there was a problem with non-profits essentially turning into conduits for a "management company" whose board of directors just coincidentally happened to be the same board as the charter. But they cracked down on that pretty quickly and it doesn't happen any more.

There are companies looking to rip off traditional public schools just like there are companies looking to rip off charter schools (my "beef" was that you were complaining about it happening to charter schools and then described it happening to a traditional public).

[KamaAina]

35. Google Imagine charter schools in Florida.

(and perhaps elsewhere)

The scam there is, the company is involved with shady real estate deals. The schools shift all their money into the real estate, then come back to the taxpayers hat in hand, claiming bankruptcy.

[Recursion]

36. OK, if states allow for-profit charters, that's obviously stupid

On the other hand, google "DCPS" to see the idiotic things a public school system can do with money...

[callous taoboy]

44. So there are irresponsible school districts. We should just abandon the whole enterprise?

You realize that under NCLB with its provision allowing parents to move their children from "unacceptable" schools to a charter school or another school of their choice, a huge majority choose to stay put. You also need to realize that, despite the negative press, despite all of the short-comings and other ills, public schools, by-and-large are doing a great job.

[Recursion]

45. No more than irresponsible charters mean charters are a bad idea

public schools, by-and-large are doing a great job

In many places, yes.

[callous taoboy]

48. I just see the whole charter movement as basically a cowardly way to not confront the

real, solvable problems of the great American public education system.
We do need help. We don't need abandonment. When a patient
needs care don't people do what they can to treat that patient
(provided they have the means, of course) instead of just walking away?

[KamaAina]

34. It was the idea originally

Lately, chains of schools like KIPP have gone nationwide.

One wonders what might happen if and when larger chains start buying up smaller chains, just as has happened in retail. :scared:

[Recursion]

37. I thought KIPP was the one we had to grudgingly admit does pretty well? NT

[Hannah Bell]

46. if so, why are charters being run by national management companies?

with uniform policies & decision making?

[Recursion]

47. None of the ones I've ever dealt with are

I'm sure the charters that are like that, suck.

[Hannah Bell]

49. if national management corps are in the mix, the purpose of charter schools isn't decentralization.

if it were, they'd be banned. instead, they're encouraged.

[Recursion]

50. Not in Boston or DC

I can't speak to Florida or any of the other places mentioned. I think there was one KIPP school let into DC as a test but I'd hardly call it "encouragement".

[Hannah Bell]

51. there are 8 kipp schools in dc.

http://www.kipp.org/schools/school-directory/location/Washington%7CDC

and one in lynn, ma.

Richard Stutman, president of the Boston Teachers Union, criticized Johnson’s plan to become a partner with a charter school management organization, saying that “it sends a bad message to our hardworking staff.’’

“It shows a lack of confidence in our own abilities,’’ Stutman said, referring to teachers and administrators alike. “It will be taken as a slap in the face.’’

The teachers union, however, will have little power to block the effort. The new state education law allows 14 in-district charter schools to open across the state, either outright or through a conversion, without union consent.

Boston will soon face greater competition for students from the independently run charter schools in the city. The new education law will allow creation of about 5,500 additional seats over the next few years at independently run charter schools in the city. Johnson’s proposals for in-district charter schools will require approval from the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education and the city’s School Committee.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/06/30/boston_takes_charter_school_nonprofit_as_a_partner/


ma's charter schools appear to have started under the "local" model, but politics moving toward the "national" model.

[Recursion]

52. Hmm... the chartering authority seems to consider them one school

http://www.dcpubliccharter.com/School-Finance-and-Facilities/2010-Charter-School-Budgets.aspx

Though that leads me to wonder how many of the other 57 charters are one charter for multiple schools.

I have no idea what the chartering process in Lynn is like.

Anybody curious where the money in DC charter schools goes, the link shows you. I'm not seeing a line item for "corporate overlords' profit" anywhere... Irritatingly , the 57 schools are not written up all in the same format.

[Hannah Bell]

53. well, they're not one school. KIPP has one *charter* & multiple schools.

& your point about a budget line for corporate overlords is stupid.

http://www.kippdc.org/school/

[Recursion]

54. I'd say more "snarky" or "snide" than "stupid"

Just glancing at them some of the schools seem to be overpaying their administrators and some of them don't. None of them that I can see sunk huge money into real estate and then required a bailout (which was the charge made upthread).

I'm not seeing any schools with huge "consulting" fees (which is how I assume the sort of conduit-to-corporations people are scared about would happen).

[Hannah Bell]

56. no, it's stupid. like if they wanted to hide excess, they couldn't do it at this level of budget

breakout:

i.e.

interest expense = 25% of teacher's salaries
administrative + "exec leadership" expense = 41% of instructional salaries
facility expense = 72% of instructional salaries


first you say there's only 1 kipp school in dc that might have failed, now you move on to another talking point when shown it's not the case.

point is: "small local schools" ain't the reason the billionaire boys club is funding charterization.

some uninformed citizens may support charter schools because they believe that, but it ain't the case.

[Recursion]

58. Wait, we were never talking about the KIPP schools "failing"

They haven't as far as I know; KIPP seems to more or less work.

I had said there was one KIPP school despite DC's reluctance to let companies run these things; I was wrong, it was one charter for 8 schools.

point is: "small local schools" ain't the reason the billionaire boys club is funding charterization.

They will get their greedy claws into education no matter what; for that matter they already have (see upthread about a public school system buying its science curriculum).

All I care about in terms of DC schools is having some situation that bypasses the current horribly corrupt and incompetent school system administration. If a non-charter plan can do that, I'm all for it.

[Dappleganger]

59. New kipp school just opened up by arne here in Jacksonville.

http://www.news4jax.com/education/25381130/detail.html

[cbdo2007]

6. Wow, great idea - but who's paying for it?

I know it would be ideal for people to want to pay for education but the reality is that most people don't want to pay for it.

No one would argue with you that more schools would solve a lot of the problems in the education system but nobody is going to put more money into the school systems, even Mark Zuckerberg.

[HuckleB]

8. If no one wants to pay more, then they'll get the quality that comes without paying more.

And maybe they should stop whining about the teachers, too.

[callous taoboy]

10. +1.

[HuckleB]

7. K & R.

Absolutely. If we want our kids to get a great education, we need to provide the type of environment that allows it.

[Starry Messenger]

13. That would be amazing.

The teacher-haters will never go for it though because engineering our failure is part of the plan. Instead they accuse us of hating children and only being worried about ourselves. They don't want to get that all of our concern is for the effective learning environment of our students.

[callous taoboy]

17. They will start unrecommending soon, you watch.

God forbid a teacher have an actual, reasonable suggestion for school success.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Bill Gates has decreed that discussion of smaller class sizes is verboten.

He suppresses the research every time he does a "study". http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leonie-haimson/the-most-dangerous-man-in_b_641832.html

In 2006, Gates again commissioned a study, called "The Silent Epidemic", which found that three fourths of the high school dropouts surveyed responded that they would have been deterred from leaving school if they had been offered smaller classes:

"While some of the students' best days in school were when teachers paid attention to them, many others had classes that were so big that teachers did not know their names. In our focus groups, participants repeated again and that they believed smaller class sizes would have helped ensure that teachers maintained order in the classroom and would have provided more individual attention. .... the need for smaller class sizes and more personal instruction emerged more than 12 separate times from the participants in our four focus groups Seventy-five percent of survey participants agreed that smaller classes with more one on one teaching would have improved students' chances of graduating."

Yet again, such findings did not seem to influence their policies, or lead them to encourage school officials to make smaller classes an essential element in their reform.

Subsequently, in independent evaluations of the small school initiative commissioned by the foundation, the value of class size came up repeatedly in interviews with students and teachers, as either the most critical aspect of their new schools, or as a focal point for dissatisfaction when despite their expectations, class sizes remained too large or had increased over time. Some of the new small schools failed miserably; while others succeeded, but when I asked the researchers who wrote these studies why they had not examined class size to determine its possible relationship to these schools' ability to improve student engagement and achievement, they responded that they had not been allowed by the Gates foundation to include this as a factor in their analysis.

Emphasis mine.

When the truth is staring them in the face and they don't like it, they blast the media with propaganda against teachers. We are fair game now, not partners.

[HuckleB]

25. +1

[callous taoboy]

26. Don't get me started on the fiasco that his tech. high schools are.

My SIL taught at one for one year. It was absolutley the most ridiculous excercise in "education" imaginable.

[callous taoboy]

16. Now witness this post sink into oblivion while the plastic happy meal post makes the greatest.

Possibly another example of an earnest suggestion, a plea from a teacher falling on deaf / disinterested ears. 165 people have read it and only 10 recommend. Teacher-bashers, prepare to unrecommend.

[SoCalDem]

18. another thing that would help would be to go back to elem/jr.hi/hs

This middle school thing is a part of the problem.. It sends 14-15 yr olds to high school alongside 18 yrs olds. That extra yr-18months makes a BIG difference.

Lots of boys don't get their real growth spurt until they are well into their teens, and too many girls are more developed physically than emotionally, and are easy prey for the "older boys"..

Having 12,13,14 yr olds together for 3 yrs in junior high is probably better emotionally for the teens...

If middle schools are here to stay, a better age breakdown might be in order

K-5 (5yrs-10 yrs)
6-9 (11yrs-14 yrs)
10-12(15yrs-18 yrs)

[Recursion]

21. Or for that matter why this insistence on grade levels?

I was at an level-less Montessori for most of my elementary years and it seemed to work pretty well. Not sure if that scales up to the later years though.

Also I'd like to see less focus on individual student "achievement" as the desired outcome.

[SoCalDem]

22. In a perfect world, that would be great

but our system has evolved into what we have.. The tweaks here & there seem to have made things worse:( I am just so glad I have no more school-aged kids:)

[callous taoboy]

28. I agree completely. I have long thought that grouping kids into a class

based on age is ludicrous.

[Recursion]

32. Though I guess the alternative requires too much trust of districts

And, frankly, having been through Texas and Mississippi public schools I think somebody needs to be watching them like a hawk, which means they can't have the kind of license this idea requires.

[Dappleganger]

60. Our public high schools have a 9th grade academy

which is separate from the high school. There is minimal mixing with the other grades unless a student is in AP classes (and those classes are typically smaller, in our experience). This is in our county, not sure how it's done elsewhere. The middle schools likewise "corral" the 6th graders away from the 7th/8th.

[donco6]

27. We did that districtwide here. All small schools

Www.Mapleton.us

We generally have no more than 2 classes per grade level. Schools share the same site. Various programs available - Montessori, Expeditionary Learning, IB. Our district free/reduced is around 70%. Were seeing really good growth. Exciting!

Sent on iPhone

[callous taoboy]

29. Green with envy. We'll do that... in 2024.

[a kennedy]

33. H*ll of an idea.....

brovo.....now who's gonna listen to it??? :yourock: :applause: :applause:

[callous taoboy]

41. Certainly not the DU teacher-bashers who have me on ignore by now.

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. That would mean hiring more teachers and staff, and paying salaries to them.

And, as you know, allowing poor and middle class people to not go homeless makes Nordic Baby Jesus cry.

Not to mention the deleterious effects of the rabble getting educated. That hurts Nordic Baby Jesus even more.

[JackRiddler]

42. K&R. The problem in the education debate is...

that some of the most pressing and obvious solutions are verboten in the current political climate (to the point where the Gates Foundation forbids its researchers to consider them as parameters, as in the cass of class size).

Smaller class sizes, meaning more teachers. Better pay for teachers to attract the most talented. Schools that provide good meals, sports and play, music and arts, clubs and training in practical skills. Space, light, furnishing, equipment. Books. A library. A longer school day (instead of a longer school year.) All this costs money. All this you will find at the private schools for the rich. All this is obviously good for children and their education (even if nothing is guaranteed and other factors are also important). As long as these basics are not provided, there will be a crisis of the public schools.

Since our country is determined to throw money at the Pentagon and the banksters, instead of the public schools (oh that would be dreadful, because that's where the poor and working class children are), center stage is given to side debates about testing and centralized control of curriculum and security, and a very real war on teachers (who in reality have the bad luck of having the biggest and Last Union Standing, which must be destroyed).

[callous taoboy]

43. I buy my own chalk, and lots of other supplies. I just lump it. Your post is spot-on.

[Jokerman]

55. Our district never left that model.

Small, neighborhood schools and not a single school bus.

We are consistently the top performing district in the metro area and one of the top in the state.

[Lugnut]

57. Consolidation created a mess.

The push for consolidation started around here when I was in high school in the early 60s. These days the local school district is a massive unmanageable horror show that employs 700+ teachers. Too many students are falling through the cracks. Classroom trailers are being used to accommodate thousands of students in classes that each have over 30 students. My heart aches for the kids who are being shortchanged in the process.

[Dappleganger]

61. re: trailers

When we first moved here (NE FL) the schools were busting at the seams as we waited for new ones to be brought online. I was aghast at the number of trailers that were used on each school campus to offset the population. What I didn't understand was that classes in trailers had a mandated size of no more than X amount of students, which gave the teachers a guarantee that they would never see anywhere near 30. Most of the time it was 20 and under for grades k-3rd, 22 for k-5th, etc.

If you get too many bodies in that tiny space it's just completely unmanageable, but with the right amount of students you can create a quiet oasis of learning.

[callous taoboy]

62. I have 23 students in third. I have had days when up to 5 are absent

and you cannot imagine how much mnore we are able to get done. It changes the whole dynamic of the classroom.

[Dappleganger]

63. Isn't that amazing?

That's five less students to distract the other students, so I bet they find it much easier, too!

[callous taoboy]

64. Less distraction, yes, but really it is more about having more space and also

the kids get more of my attention because competition for my attention has been reduced. The classroom is calmer, I can attend to more students more in-depth, and it just generally makes for a better day.

The hell is when those 5 return from being sick the next day and not only is my classroom over-crowded again but I have to get those 5 caught up. Can't win for losing.

[callous taoboy]

65. Self kick because this is important, dammit!

[JackRiddler]

66. Yes. It is.

[JackRiddler]

67. Yeah, damn it!

[callous taoboy]

68. again, dammit i say