So I was watching a special on Jonestown...

[missheidi]

and the way they're describing Jim Jones (a fear-monger, lying about the government, etc.)...it's a bit Beck-ish. I guess we know who his idol is.

[The Northerner]

1. I remember watching a program on Jonestown a while back

and it amazed me that he was capable of convincing so many people to believe him despite how insane he was.

[merqz]

3. Willie Brown called him...

the following": "Let me present to you what you should see every day when you look in the mirror in the early morning hours ... Let me present to you a combination of Martin King, Angela Davis, Albert Einstein ... Chairman Mao."

also, per wikipedia... First Lady Rosalynn Carter also personally met with Jones on multiple occasions, corresponded with him about Cuba, and spoke with him at the grand opening of the San Francisco Democratic Party Headquarters where Jones garnered louder applause than Mrs. Carter.<42><44><45>

This guy was exceptionally charismatic and a great speaker. It's the CLASSIC cult of personality.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CountAllVotes]

4. Jim Jones was plain evil

you can call him left wing or right wing. He'd swing with any way the door would go as long as it was in his favor.

Evil cult leader is what this man was. Good damn riddance!

:dem:

[merqz]

5. Dispute the truth all you want

He was evil. He was also an avowed unwavering leftist. The OP compared him to Beck. In many ways, he was Beck'ish. But he was a leftwing Beck, to a far greater degree. Read the whole article. Research it. This is a man who had Harvey Milk, Willie Brown, Rosalyn Carter, Moscone, etc. all supporting him and meeting with him. This is a man who moved to San Francisco, got involved with the politics there (Housing Authority etc.) and founded the People's Temple. This is a man who over and over again professed and exercised his adherence to far left principles. The evidence is there. Political ideology and evil are tangential. There are evil people on the left and on the right. He was evil from the left.

[CountAllVotes]

6. what do you know?

I know people that lived through the horror of Guyana and all were innocent.

It is pointless to state that they were left wing or right wing. Fact is that most are now dead and those that survived are mental wrecks.

Think what you like from the movies you've watched and some article that you read. I know people that lived through it and I do not need to read or watch anything more about it, and no, the person I am thinking of was quite conventional, if anything conservative. Enough already and let those that died RIP please!

[merqz]

8. You are not even addressing what I said

I didn't say ANYTHING about the people IN HIS CHURCH. I was specifically referring to HIM (Jones) and only him. If you can't stomach the fact that he was profoundly evil, but also happened to be an avowed leftist, then I can't help you. Is it the case that we should only criticize the politics of evil people WHEN they happen to be rightwing (a la Beck), but that we studiously ignore an evil man's politics when he happens to be leftwing? That's a myopic kind of dogmatism I could never stomach. It's dishonest at its core.

I never said ANYTHING about the victims at Guyana. I never claimed they weren't innocent. I never said one word about their politics, or anything else.

I am talking about ONE THING ONLY- JIM JONES.

[CountAllVotes]

9. Jim Jones was insane

he was neither left wing nor right wing. You don't get it do you? INSANE. You cannot call a person that is INSANE right or left.

What is your point in trying to drive a stake into the part about Jim Jones being "left wing".

If anything, he was conservative. His plans were diabolical and racist to the core.

You had to be there and live it to know what it was all about I suspect. The movies you watch and the articles you read are nowhere even close.

JIM JONES WAS INSANE!

[merqz]

14. absolutely wrong

First of all, if he was insane, he ceases to be evil. Because if he was

I quote YOU: "Evil cult leader is what this man was", not to mention the title of your post.

Now,all of a sudden he was insane.

So, which is it? He was EVIL!! He was also an avowed leftist, which isn't even remotely debatable. The idea that you can call him a conservative is laughable to the core. It's like a no true scotsman fallacy on crack. "Well, he can't be a leftist because organizing a mass suicide is not what a true leftist would do ". lol

Here's my point. I strike back against dishonesty, myopia, and prejudice. You simply cannot admit that a profoundly evil man also happened to be a leftist. What I realize is that a bad man can be a leftist, a rightwinger, or be essentially apolitical. Political sensibility doesn't define one's morality.

You couldn't ask for a more clear leftist pedigree than Jim Jones had. It's not remotely arguable. We can go point by point, but clearly you aren't interested in facts.

Let's pretend for a second that Jim Jones worshipped at the altar of Ayn Rand. He hobnobbed with rightwingers. He was feted by rightwingers. He founded a church based on conservative principles. He spoke favorably about capitalism as being our salvation. etc. You would NEVER argue he wasn't conservative.

Well, here's a hint. His pedigree is pure. What more do you want as proof he was leftist. For pete's sake... I love this kind of cognitive dissonance you display.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. His politics were all over the map, and stemmed from his desire

to control others. He built his original flock from the streets and the people in SF, but by the time they vanished to their final destination they had left the city behind and also all of their social outreach of any kind. They lived and worshiped in a compound that was patrolled by heavily armed guards who took aim at anyone who so much as looked at the gates. He was well known in the area for sermons that included a call and response Jim: Who am I. Them: Jesus Christ!.
They were a religious, not political organization. Jones adopted various hip lexicons to attract and exploit his followers. The start of their church was extremely different from the last few years, isolated in Mendo County as they were, feared and disliked by all of their neighbors, especially the other churches.
He was an opportunist, his politics and his religion were all about his personal charisma. He spoke the language that worked at any given time.
There are many, many insane ministers in this nation. I personally do not call the worst of them by any political names. They are crazy con men who use any and every modality without concern for sincerity. Jone's 'politics' were as honest and accurate as his claim of being Jesus Christ. This much seems obvious.

[smiley]

24. why can't you?

only right wingers can be insane?

sorry, but that's an insane argument. ...and sorry to highjack your discussion. It's just that the IMO the poster you are arguing with isn't disagreeing with you. He's just making a point that Jim Jones had a leftist point of view when it came to politics.

[CountAllVotes]

25. no, you don't get what I am saying

and I will repeat it again - Jim Jones was neither left wing nor right wing. He was a nut job and he fit neatly into both categories as necessary. You have over 900 dead people as proof.

[Zax2me]

7. you can draw comparisons

For sure, you can draw comparisons, they are there. I'm not saying beck is another Jim Jones but there are general similarities as you mentioned. Strangely, remember Harvey Milk being tied somehow to Jim Jones though without googling it can't remember off the top of my head in what context. Too long ago to remember(!)

[CountAllVotes]

10. the Harvey Milk link was this

Both Mayor George Moscone and Harvey Milk were gunned down and killed in San Francisco very close to the time that the Guyana episode occurred. You didn't know what to follow at the time - the horror in Guyana or the murders of two politicians in San Francisco.

It was a sad, sick time indeed.

I haven't seen the likes of anything like it since thank god for that. :(

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

11. You're not seriously saying that was the only connection, are you?

Obviously, Jones and the People's Temple were a big movement in San Francisco in the early to mid 70's and certainly had connections to Milk and Moscone's political careers just like any prominent community group would have. To pawn it off that is was just the coincidence that the Jonestown Massacre and the Milk/Moscone shootings happened ten days apart is a bit disingenuous or attempting to sweep aside the subject, no?

[merqz]

15. He is that deluded, yes

Read his responses to me. I could provide all the evidence in the world that Jones was well connected to the political machine in San Francisco. He was feted by Willie Brown, was appointed to the Housing Authority, he hobnobbed with Milk (not to mention Rosalyn Carter), but this poster CANNOT see reality because he can't stand to admit that Jones was about as solidly left as one can get. And also happened to be profoundly evil.

[CountAllVotes]

22. does the name DAN WHITE mean anything at all to you

and exactly what do you know about San Francisco politics?

White was a pissed off loser and he ran and got his gun and shot Moscone and Milk. He was planning on shooting others too but ran to and hid out at the Doggy Diner on Van Ness Avenue!

That is the fact and Dan White had nothing to do with Jim Jones. Period.

He was another crazy freak and was ultra-conservative and he too was evil and he too was dangerous.

He didn't quite have a "cult" following luckily!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

23. I know all about Dan White

And his Twinkie defense and the fact he was a right-wing nutjob......I don't know why you are so upset that someone pointed out that VERY UNFORTUNATELY some Democratic politicians in the city had a connection with Jim Jones in the 70's. It's not like it was a well-kept secret to those who know all about the Jonestown Massacre. Clearly I don't think those politicians had a clue as to how far his depravity reached.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

12. People's Temple was based originally in SF

Jones got in with Willie Brown, who ended up introducing him to Geroge Moscone who ended up putting him on the housing authority. Jones also threw his support to Milk when Harvey ran for the State Assembly, even though he had earlier tried to snuggle up to Milk's opponant, Art Agnos. The guy was a complete political opportunist.

[merqz]

16. Um, no

His complete history shows that his politics were steadfast. He did not adopt a certain political ideology because of his search for power in SF. He was steeped in such politics long before he got involved with Milk et al. Cites available.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

17. You can hold the same political beliefs, steadfastly.....

....and still be a political opportunist by cozying up to opponents of one another. Obviously in San Francisco you're either going to have your choice of the Democrat, the liberal or the total far-left off the charts socialist...lol.

[CountAllVotes]

18. and how did Dan White fit into this picture you paint of San Francisco?

Another left winger was he? No he was a right wing homophobe that ended up committing suicide in jail.

I guess this left winger named Dan White didn't count or was he a right winger?

Or does it really matter.

Another sick fuck. :dunce:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

20. My comment on San Fran politics was a joke

But if you have proof that Dan White tried to get in with Jim Jones or vice versa, I'd love to hear it. I don't think Dan White ever had enough power (because he was a right-wing nutjob voted in from the outskirts of the city) to interest Jones when he had bigger fish on the hook.

[CountAllVotes]

21. Dan White was a former SF cop

and he ran for supervisor and did not get the job. He was very angry about it and as the story goes, he killed Moscone and Milk as an act of revenge.

There are plenty of conservative people living in SF, believe me, and wow was the Doggy Diner ever not the place to go! ;)

This is where Dan White fled to after having shot Moscone and Milk and the whole of City Hall and the surrounding areas were on lock down. You don't forget things like that nor the so called "Twinkie Defense". :puke:

He was a sick fuck as I said and he was indeed a real right winger.

I never saw any connection between Dan White and Jim Jones. Nope.

[Maru Kitteh]

13. With people like Jones it's never, ever about the issues or the ideology

it's about the CONTROL.

Nothing, but nothing, controls a group of followers like fear.


Of course, nothing sells gold at questionable prices and $250 backpacks filled with "gourmet food" with a 25yr shelf-life like fear too.


So, is Beck a Jim Jones, or is he merely P.T. Barnum? Time will tell.

[old mark]

19. Jim Jones was a darling of the "hip" left politicians in the SF area in the mid '70's -

Many of them got favors and money for the "good works" he was doing. He talked a lot of '70's era leftist bullshit, but I have to agree he was in it all for himself - he craved power!
I doubt he held ANY real political views - he was selling what people were buying back then, which IMO, is Beck 100%...a total salesman with no substance at all.
The paranoia he displayed grew and grew till the movement to Jonestown to escape the "federal government persecution" he told all who would listen was upon him and his followers.
He was a crook and opportunist and sick man from the start, and I think he gradually became sicker with time.
I saw him arguing on the streets of Berkeley in 1975, and I had no doubt then he was very crazy, but so are many "religious" leaders and some politicians. I was maybe 10 feet from him, and he was a scarey figure. I moved back east, and forgot about him completely till the murders in Jonestown became known, then I recognised him immediately.

I still believe if the Bay Area politicians had had the balls to call him out for what he was, the deaths could have been averted, but they rode his train as much as he rode theirs.

mark