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I have long held that we are better off with a majority that includes Blue Dogs than . . . . . .

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:16 PM
Original message
I have long held that we are better off with a majority that includes Blue Dogs than . . . . . .
. . . . being a minority and not controlling committees.

I am no longer so comfortable in that thinking.

We have held a Congressional majority since 2006. We got to set the agenda.

There was not one official minute of testimony about stolen elections.

There was not one official minute of testimony about oil meetings.

There was not one official minute of testimony about why we went to war in Iraq.

There was not one official minute of testimony about war crimes by the leadership.

There was not one official minute of testimony about many things that actually, really, honestly MATTER.

We now hold all three branches and STILL we get nothing for our majority.





The repubicans have provided a Ph.D. level education of how to lead from the back of the parade. Maybe we're better biting the bullet now, casting off the Blue Dogs, and working to get real Democrats elected.

Or maybe not. I have this very strong "fuck 'em" streak of real antipathy toward the Blue Dogs who have, in actual fact, fucked US at every chance.

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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. If and when they get the house. They will lench the WH.
They will do to Obama what they've always wanted to do short of actually harming him


WATCH. It will be some EVIL shit going down if the GOBP gets the house.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I dunno...
it wouldn't surprise me one bit if one of these fuckers had a pre-made noose in the trunk of their car.
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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
64. Obama gives pretty speeches. Isn't that enough?
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #64
110. If you knew how I felt about those pretty speeches...
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. So how were things for 8 years under bush? It's not a hypothetical but a simple comparison
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 07:22 PM by stray cat
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'm very sorry, but simply saying "We suck less" isn't going to cut it.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. +100000
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Perfect. This can't be said enough.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #14
57. That's just a simple, meaningless platitude. It doesn't take much effort
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 07:57 AM by Kahuna
to counter it with the fact that under repub leadership, as bad as things are now, they will get a whole lot worse. The repukes are advocating going back to the same disastrous policies that tanked our economy in the first place. You want to risk them back in charge? Really?
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #57
70. That's just a simple, false dichotomy. Sucking less is not enough.
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I'm sorry, but "They will suck much more" if they win.
Endless impeachment hearings and fishing expeditions.

FUCK THAT.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. Thats practically the campaign slogan
that Tim Kaine introduced on The Daily Show a while back.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #39
73. Pathetic, isn't it. n/t
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Sure is. I have said it before and i will say it again. I want Dean back nt
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MissDeeds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. Yes
And unfortunately the bottom line is "We suck too". Damn.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
44. Well yes, it does cut it, it's the entire point
Maybe we suck 80% less, maybe 50% less. However much "we suck less", means a whole lot of help to people who wouldn't be getting it otherwise.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #44
114. "means a whole lot of help to people who wouldn't be getting it otherwise"
I'm sorry. Not sure what you mean by "it." They wouldn't be getting sucked otherwise? They wouldn't be getting suckered otherwise?

:shrug:
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
56. How about, we could suck a whole lot more? Is that what you're advocating for?
:eyes:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
88. Sure it does. If you believe the worst of everyone and that all are evil
then you are stuck with the least evil.

I'd personally hate to live life thinking that way.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
93. + 1 million..absolutely! eom
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
111. Very true. What kind of marketing is that anwyay?
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Ramulux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
116. Isnt going to cut what?
I dont understand your point. Do you know something about our political system that I dont? Is there some sort of huge progressive political party we could join that would actually have a chance at holding elected office? We can be idealists all we want and complain about the democrats but the cold harsh reality is that they are our only option. See, I like to live in the real world and in the real world, there are only 2 political parties in this country, one of them is full of racist, scumbag pieces of shit who hold disgusting ideological beliefs, and the other party is full of weaklings who are too afraid to stand up for whats right. The difference is that the democrats do good things every once in a while, they actually attempt to fix and reform our system every once in a while.

So I ask you simply, which party had 96% of their representatives vote to repeal DADT and which party had 0% of their reps vote to repeal it? Thats a pretty stark contrast right there and I have no problem voting for the party that does good things every once in a while as opposed to those who purposefully try to fuck our shit up on a daily basis.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Being less evil isn't good enough, when we should be pushing
for better. Accepting slightly better than bush isn't good enough when we're still using so many of bush's policies, like torture, rendition, cia and military prisons and detention overseas without rights, tribunal with rigged rules and spying on defense attorneys, keeping the ability and "right" to spy on Americans, etc.

Obama has even EXPANDED bush's policies by declaring the right to assassinate American Citizens if his administration declares them to be working with terrorists WITHOUT TRYING THEM FIRST, and they are apparently targeting an American Citizen in Yemen who is in hiding.

:wtf:

Obama campaigned on restoring the rule of law. How is ANY of this restoring the rule of law?

How is any of this good enough to be acceptable? If any republican was doing this shit we would all be outraged, but only because it is Obama doing it somehow that makes it okay for most democrats. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

We need to have standards. We need to have real, core ethical standards that aren't fickle and don't change based on which party in power. Otherwise they aren't really standards, they're just easily changed slogans based on who is in power.

Politics isn't a sport where you cheer your team and wave your team's colors. It is real issues that affect people's lives. We need to support issues, and support people only to the extent that they will promise to act on those issues the way we need they to act, and then deliver on those promises. And if or when they break promises, we need to be able to hold them accountable, because the issues are what is important, not the politicians.

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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
58. It's easy to think like that when things are good. But now is not a time
to stand on "principle" (if you can call it that) when so many people have been devastated by republican rule.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
103. Unfortunately, there are always reasons why it's "never the time"
so it always has to be the time to stand up for what's right, or else you'll never do it. You'll always give in to compromises, support the lesser of two evils, and end up supporting the corporations that run our party.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
66. And...whatever happened to the "Sternly Worded Letters" from Waxman & Conyers?
Subpoena's that weren't honored...hearings promised that didn't materialize or those that did never ended up in reports that held anyone of importance accountable.

It's taken many of us here (who were activist Democrats) a long while to wake up to the fact that Special Interests and Corporations run both parties. We don't have a chance of getting politicians who will totally support their voters wishes until we get the Money of Special Interests/Big Business OUT OF ELECTIONS!

You say:

Politics isn't a sport where you cheer your team and wave your team's colors. It is real issues that affect people's lives. We need to support issues, and support people only to the extent that they will promise to act on those issues the way we need they to act, and then deliver on those promises. And if or when they break promises, we need to be able to hold them accountable, because the issues are what is important, not the politicians.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
49. That analogy doesn't work, due to the large number of conservative Dems who gave away the store.
NT!

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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #49
59. Gave away the store? What the heck does that mean? The dems
saved the economy from a depression. Whether you like it or not, it was necessary to save the banks and shore up businesses so that more people would not suffer the effects of republican rule.

Whether you like it or not, the banks hold the wealth of our country. If they go down, the whole economy goes into freefall. The same with businesses. The more businesses that go under, the more people that are out of work. I'm surprised to even have to state the obvious. So yes, "Wall Street" had to be secured so that "Main Street" could continue to function. Duh. :eyes:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
94. yeah? how is it working our for the 15 million unemployed? I know how it is working out
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 12:57 PM by flyarm
for the wall street boys, and the banksters and AGI , Citicorp boys & the UBS crooks and the CEO's of Comcast..they all got their bonus's..I know, because some of them are my neighbors..they are doing just fine! They even give out invitations to their weekly cocktail parties..with caterers, florists and all..and if you are really lucky you get to ride around on their Yachts ..parked at their mansion Beach homes..with magnum's of champagne flowing and the ever present martini's, while they laugh at you!

They just don't happen to be the company I care to keep. I just keep fighting for those without the Yachts and mansion beach homes..You know the people who don't care enough, to care about themselves.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
115. Wall Street is NOT "The Economy".
Obama & The Dems saved a The Managementand stockholders of a handful of Wall Street Banks.
He even preserved their Pay and Bonuses.

There IS legitimate debate over whether he saved "The Economy".
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. The time to work to get real Dems elected is in the primary elections
If you can't do it, then effing figure out why, and learn to do better next time.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. that is unless your primary vote gets taken away the way ours was in Florida and Michigan!
Just let it happen to you..then you will understand how worthless our primaries are now!
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well if the republicans get into office that is all they will do.
Is that what you want us to spend all our time doing too?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. At what point woud you advise Mr. Brown to stop attempting the kick when Ms. Van Pelt is holding?
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. that's farking highlarious.
nicely done.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. We have to use our leverage on them as strongly as they use it against us
Look, where are they going to go?

Are they going to become Republicans? Maybe, and then they'll lose the primary for being too far left all those years.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I can **totally** get behind that.
The problem is, our leadership has shown time and again it is too fucking cowardly to do that.
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. they are...and they wonder why we are not feeling it now
:eyes:
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
98. or wonder why they need the VP to fund raise for Blanche Lincoln in Massachusetts.
yep indeed that just happened!
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
38. I really like that. Beats the theory of "Where does the left have to go?" all to hell.
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 09:50 PM by DirkGently
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. We've been appeasing these assholes since
Iran/contra, and look where it's got us. We've made them what they are. The more outrageously they behave, the more eagerly we suck up to them. The only thing they understand is the knout. Meet a Repuke half way and he'll bust your chops and leave you lying in your own blood the middle of the road.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Advocating for Democrats to lose and for Republicans to get the majority
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 08:22 PM by FrenchieCat
makes you different from conservatives how?
and why should that be allowed at DU, 39 days before an election?


As for you getting "Nothing" for our majority......
That would be relative, and your nothing, may be another person's
life being saved. But it is good to know that you can afford to "Bite
the bullet", because there are some that cannot. But they probably don't
count in your book, as you thought hard about what "you" are "comfortable" with.
How Liberal of you!

That's how the Right think too. They don't give a shit about anything
but how whatever is going on impacts them personally, and if it doesn't....
then fuck it, they don't mind biting the bullet.
That's why they don't want unemployment insurance; cause they have jobs or don't need one.
That's why they don't give a shit about who might need Welfare, cause they have money to get by.
That's why they don't give a shit about immigration, cause they ain't immigrants.
That's why they don't care about the uninsured; cause they've got insurance.
That's why they don't care about college being more affordable; cause their kids are too stupid to go. That's why they don't care about anything other than whatever directly affects them....
because anything other than that, to them too, it's nothing.

10 Major New Health Reform Benefits Take Effect Today
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-john-b-larson/10-majo...
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. When you diddle with the famous coffee table of incremental discography . . .
. . . it often happens that a floorboard foots into the representative inclination of fabulous.

YMMV
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I understand......You are comfortable biting the bullet,
and that is why you can advocate against us keeping the majority....

I've got it.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Bleat statimus cranialitude fribeaticus homous. Trygerilt politentius dunkilty. Hektert . . . . . .
. . . . fibernum, freeterp twitty repcilup tro dubbadec temes.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Doofus thermidor et un vrai clown qui pue.......
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. .
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. LOL!
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. IPOP
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. And they are trying to pick off our progressive committee
chairmen one by one, like Charlie Rangel and Maxine Waters, I believe to replace them with corporate DLCers.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Who is "they"?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. LOL!
Surely you are joking!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Hardy Har-Har!
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 08:24 PM by FrenchieCat
Guess I must be! :shrug:
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
41. Yeah, people often don't explain themselves
they just throw something out and expect us all to get it.
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TheIdiot Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. maybe all blue dogs...
ain't blue.
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Patriot 76 Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Real" Democrats, Liberals, and Progressives never stop fighting for what they believe in.
Ever.

And they certainly don't push for others to give up fighting either.

That's been my experience. Maybe your's is different.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
28. The Rethugs got rid of their RINO's in the last few elections
And we see how that's worked out for them. Let's get rid of our Blue Dogs and DINO's.
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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. worked out?
it pushed them so far to the right that they have to contend with the tea party now.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #43
84. The same people who identify with the tea party today
are the ones who refused to vote for Rethuglicans who gave us bailouts. That's the biggest reason Gramps lost, now they've got the decks clear for someone more to their liking.

The anti-war movement of the Sixties was what the Democratic establishment of Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey had to contend with, too. The Rethugs learned from that, and won't repeat the mistakes that were made.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is what compromise gets you
We didn't endure eight years of the Bush regime to have to put up with this shit. We demanded real change.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You may be about to get it your "real" change from the last 20 months.....
yes....a change back to the regime you believe you endured for eight years.

The way that Bush got in initially was due to voters who felt there was
not difference between the parties; 70 thousand of then who voted for Nader in Florida.

If you think you are putting up with shit now....you just wait.
You're gonna get some change alright...some change back to where we
were before Bush left. LOL!
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Wrong - Bush "won" Florida due to suppressing the black vote
Besides, it's not my fault that Dems decided to cave in - I've been doing what I could to help out local Democratic candidates, but the actions of their fellow party members on Capitol Hill aren't helping at all.

We need Dems who act like Dems. End of fucking story.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. eggsactly. on both points.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. I agree with your sentiments that we need Dems who act like Dems.....
But is that what will happen in November?
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kickysnana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
71. I was one of four people who showed up at Sen Wellstones
office to ask him to not allow the illegal electors in Florida, Tennessee, Texas and Ohio the day before the Senate sealed the deal.

"No Democrat is going to vote against the electors because they have agreed not to prosecute Clinton if we don't"

Hey, I loved Bill and most of what he tried to do but I love my country more. He and the Dems knew the risks going in but they act like abused spouses unable to see that they have to prosecute their abusers or they become the parent who allowed the children (us) to be abused too.

I was in that situation and I decided that me dead and away and the kids with my folks was better than the hell we were in.

You are just the neighbor who says "Stand by your man and his scuzzy friends".

The White House and the Party are attacking liberals and cozying up to the greedy insane right. The DFL here got groups who were collecting petitions for "Single Payer" evicted from our State Fair Grounds in September. Blue Dogs and the people who support them do not represent us. Pre election analysis stated that both Hillary and Obama are right of Eisenhower that makes the Blue Dogs equal to Reagan and GOP Fascists. Warren was a bone so they can give away billions in tax breaks to the rich and gut Social Security.

Why do you want that? Good looking family and nice speeches?
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
80. +1000
eom
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
100. It wasn't just black vote supressed..but it was mostly minority voters!
all minorities.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. 200,000 Dems in Florida voted for b*s*
Checkmate.

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
99. wrong wrong wrong and wrong! From a Florida registered voter!
oh and pssssss...it was stolen..as were our primary votes by the dem party in 2008! stolen!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
89. I'd hate to think what life would be like if no one ever compromised
The Repukes do compromise. Read their media. When you see it from their POV, they don't get all they want either.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
102. There is legitimate compromise and then there is sell out, and shitting on those who brung you!
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 01:24 PM by flyarm
BIG Giant difference!
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. "The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative
Edited on Thu Sep-23-10 09:26 PM by Individualist
agenda" Dennis Kucinich
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-23-10 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
45. I understand.
I am where you are at least once each week, but at the end of the day most of the things that aren't being addressed happened under large Republican majorities. Do you think they won't commit equally egregious crimes when they are given another chance?

Let me make this clear. If I don't vote for Blue Dogs, I don't vote. I have exactly one Democrat representing me. One. And Democrats don't come any bluer than mine. If I had a choice between a real Democrat and a DINO, there would be *no* contest. I don't have that choice. I never have.

Our guys don't stand up when they should, but the harm that Bush and Cheney inflicted will not be undone soon, perhaps not ever. We could have made so many strides toward progress except that we have to keep cleaning up behind the RepubliCons. At least we don't leave so many things needing fixing when we get to set the agenda. FDR was able to accomplish so much mostly because he had so much time.

Carter after Nixon/Ford,
Clinton after Reagan/Bush and now
Obama after Bush, Jr*.

Honest to God I don't know how to resolve this. Big money buys it all. We really are stuck in a lesser of evils system.

When Clinton was in office, my brother, out of extreme frustration, expressed the opinion that maybe we just needed to hand it over to the Republicans to speed the onset of the revolution. But we won't have a revolution until the pain becomes much much worse than it is right now. And it won't be just us revolting. Consider the tea party people. Do you think we will have more in common with them in the midst of chaos than we do now? Somehow I doubt it.



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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. They were able to cause that harm because of Dems like the Blue Dogs.
By voting conservative Dems who agree with the likes of b*s* into office, such crimes are enabled.

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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. That's not true. It happened with them. It would have happened without them.
If my blue dog hadn't been there, you would have had this guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Ricketts

With or without.

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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
62. I understand. I sympathize. I appreciate that you vote solid Dem all the time.
You and your fellow voters (wherever you are) are not the issue. The issue is more our Congressional leadership.

The Art of Arm Twisting is fast going the way of the dodo bird and dial telephones. It is long past time that the Democratic Caucus makes it very clear to *all* members that there are certain fundamental positions that they are REQUIRED to hold.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #45
67. I can't disagree with a thing you've said and honestly,
deep down, these are the sentiments that I suppress.
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
46. ..and not one damn thing done about media concentration.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #46
63. If you've read my posts for any length of time, you know that I see the media as our single .....
..... biggest problem. NOTHING is bigger. I can't imagine how, just as an example, we would not have single payer if the media told the honest truth about what we pay and what we get for it and how much the insurance companies are STEALING from us.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
47. It's a very interesting thought, and I wonder if you're correct even if it's counterintuitive.
Think about this -- if every Dem senator/congresscritter was a solid progressive liberal, would they be afraid to filibuster? To use every legit trick in the book to hold up progress on terrible legislation? To speak out loudly and constantly when wrongs are being committed and injustice forced upon others?

I doubt it. I think they'd define courageous opposition.

Now contrast it with all the conservative Dems we currently have, who bend over backward to give the Repubs everything they want.

What matters more: numbers, or resolve? Especially when the larger the conservative numbers, the weaker the liberal resolve?

Great OP, Stinky.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
48. It is the same as having spies in your camp..
They will block you at every turn, letting you believe that you are the "majority" and that you are in charge. But you never have enough votes...
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27inCali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
52. we could afford to lose the majority of blue dogs
and still retain control in the House.

If we jettisoned the filibuster in the Senate, all the Blue Dogs there would no longer be relevant.

chances are, this is what is going to happen anyways IMO.

i
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
54. We need to get rid of blue dogs in Democratic districts.
Bill Lipinski comes to mind. It's a heavily Democratic district. There's absolutely no excuse for his poor voting record.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
55. Voters would not appreciate hearings on YOUR list of grievances..
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 07:24 AM by Kahuna
When the economy is on the edge of collapse and tens of millions of Americans are out of work? They (majority of Americans, via polling data) thought it was overreach when the Dems worked on health care last year. Seriously dude, you're barking up the wrong tree. There is a time and place for everything. Reversing the down slide of the 'near depression' economy is the only thing that Americans want to hear about right now. All that stuff you listed would just be considered, pointless grandstanding and cause a tsunami of losses for the Dems this fall. Is that what you're advocating for?
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
60. I agree Stinky. I'm tired of enabling them by their threats of
the consequences of not voting for them. as a progressive, I was appalled at how the party treated the progressive candidate for senator in the primary in my state. She is a SOS (who btw did an excellent job cleaning up after Ken Blackwell's 8 years at the stint, a feat which earned her the Kennedy Center Medal of Freedom) as well as a former judge yet the Dem who ended up w the nomination used late hour rovian tactics to smear her. Typical corporate Dem get's all the big bucks from his corporate masters & will smear in order to be on top. The Dems lost 2 votes in that race from this household, as well as any contributions and absolutely no volunteer hours. I'm done enabling them.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
61. recommend
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
65. We are better off with true representation in my opinion.
We can't truly achieve our goals without it. The opposition has all the money to buy influence. I see no use in electing Blue Dogs.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. But in many cases, there is no other choice. Sad but true. n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. You can't get true representation until the unwashed can tell a difference.
Blue Dogs cloud both economic and political arguments and produce the talking points of people such as Nader.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. No argument here. You're right but some have no choice!
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 09:13 AM by Fire1
edit: to add, no choice other than not voting at all!
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
74. In order to agree with your assertion I have to completely ignore the events in the real world
like the historic economic meltdown (which is what they were working on instead of your pet projects)
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. You have a very short view of the world, my friend.
The longer view shows that we have been ceding ground, inch by pragmatic inch, for decades.

There is never a right time or a good time for some people, while, for others, there is no time like now. "Gitter Done", to use the vulgar.

This is not about your favorite cause celebre, no matter how much you'd like to deflect it to be.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. Appreciating the real world events and properly prioritizing people
over vengeance is NEVER the "short view" Not now, not then not ever.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
75. K & R nt
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
78. I have to agree with you. There were those that said we should tolerate the blue dogs and dinos...
...if it meant we were in the majority so we could have subpoena power. Well we did, we have, and so far not a fucking thing has happened...we are told to "look forward not backwards" conveniently forgetting the maxim that those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We were told not to look into torture, false imprisonment, election fraud, going to war on false pretenses...you know..petty shit like that...

For a bunch of really smart guys in the administration and in congress we sure act like a bunch of dummies. I hate to say it but it's like high school all over again. The Dems are the nerds, and the rethuglicans are the jocks...and the jocks are kicking our ass whether there's more or less of them because they aren't afraid to get dirty. More to the point, they aren't afraid to get every single jock to toe the line when it comes to their overall agenda, something the Dems are simply unable to accomplish...

So yes, even though we may lose control in the short term, we need to get the Dinos and the blue dogs out, hunker down, and once the shitstorm has blown over and the general population has FINALLY figured out that the gop has only their benefactors best interests at heart, take control again and move this country forward.

The one thing I really want to see, just once, is a Dem with power (i dunno, maybe the Prez) call these fuckers out and punch them squarely in the mouth. The ONLY way a bully learns is when you finally kick the ever-loving shit out of them, and that is the only way (metaphorically of course) that the current knuckle-dragging thugs running the gop will stfu once and for all. I know the Prez can't do it now, but after he wins in 2012 and officially becomes a lame-duck I sincerely hope he pullls the gloves off and commences the ass-whoppings as soon as the inauguration is over with....

Here endeth the rant...
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
79. The Democrats lost the DixieCrats and survived. Time to lose the Blue Dogs.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #79
105. +1, great point.
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
81. Blue dogs are from states that woud elect Repubs otherwise.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. Explain Amy Klobuchar to me n/t
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 01:23 PM by dflprincess
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mkultra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #101
118. what aspect?
why the DFL nominated her or why she won? Are you saying you consider her a blue dog? She is pro-choice, supports LGBT rights, favors federal social services like Social Security and universal health care, and is critical of the Iraq War.

She certainly wasn't bluedog when she ran.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-25-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. She was shoved down our throats by the DSCC, DNC and the
state party hierarchy went along with it. There was a more progressive candidate running for endorsement and the people running the state party buried him - pretty much in vioaltion of state party rules.

You'll have to point me to Klobuchar taking any of the positions you list. She avoided taking any position on the health care by constantly babbling about the "Mayo Clinic model". She has never said she supported universal access to care and would not take a position of a public option. She voted for extending FISA the first time the bill came up, though she did get hammered by Minnesotans about her vote and she did vote against it the next time it came up. She is saying that she thinks its vital to give the Catfood Commission's recommendations an up or down vote but will not answer questions about how she will vote if they come back with a rec to cut Social Security.

The strongest positions she has taken in the last couple years is to come out against texting while driving and expressing concern about food safety. (I've considered submitting her name for a Profiles in Courage award).

Write to you about an issue and see what kind of response you get. I will say that her staff writes some of the best non-response responses I've ever read. Both Amy & her staff have made it clear that they are not interested in hearing from any constituent who does not agree with her on an issue. While she remains popular with the general public she is losing support among DFL activists who are actually paying attention to what she is actually doing when not crusading against lead paint in children's toys - or whatever feel good issue she's gone public with most recently.





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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
82. I don't want them to hold hearings on those things you list. I want them to focus on the economy.
Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. We were teetering on the brink of the second Great Depression. It was averted, but millions are still sinking.

I want our government to focus on that. There are various aspects of that. Many of them. I want them to focus on all those aspects. I don't want them getting bogged down in the reasons for the Iraq War at this time (it's over...move on...we can't change history....there is time to examine this in the future). I don't want them getting bogged down at this time in war crimes, when there are no allegations that that is continuing.

Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. You and the vast majority of Americans. Can you imagine what would
happen in November if the Dems were focusing on "getting even" and punishing the previous administration? Oy.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #82
106. It will never be over for the Million Iraqi's who lost loved ones..ever, or the soldiers families
who lost a son or daughter for a lie.

We can never regain our nation in any way without rule of law.

Without rule of law in every aspect , no one has freedom and no one can ever trust this government or our leaders ever again..and the corporations damn well know this..they know they can get away with any damn thing they want..because we have lost all our rule of law.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
85. Rec. Arturo Tuscannini said,"We are no good but the others are worse."
Hell of a philosophy for a political party, huh?

The Democrats used to be very distinct from the GOP, not only in our confused sort of individualistic organization, but in the desire to make the US better for working people and the middle class, which actually makes things better for the rich, too.

We have lost so much of what made us us, it is frightening, and we must get it back.

If a few Blue Dogs lose their secure jobs in the future, it won't hurt us - it will make us a strong party, which we surely are not now. We have been going the wrong way and we need to get back to when we meant something.

rec.

mark
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
86. Blue Dogs weaken the entire Party.
So they are worse than a Republican.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
87. Why are those the essential matters?
Edited on Fri Sep-24-10 12:03 PM by treestar
There were many minutes about other matters which were important, too.

The economy was failing. With that, nobody cares about Bush.
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alsame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
90. That's where I'm at too. They are corroding the party from
within, making it impossible to govern meaningfully by advancing truly Democratic principles. Things just get watered down or ignored completely. The Dems in Congress can't ever put up a good strong fight against the GOP because they get stabbed in the back by other Dems.

Much of this 'bipartisanship' that is talked about is wooing the Blue Dogs and Conservadems, not just the GOP.

Here's where I admire the guts of the Tea Party - they don't give a damn if their candidates are going to lose a GOP seat, they just vote for lunatics. As a result, they are pulling both Democrats and Republicans further to the right.

In contrast, we are told to hold our nose and vote for any and all Democrats. And I admit I have done so all my life. However, it's becoming increasingly clear that more and more of these 'Dems' are sabotaging our agenda. And people like me are enabling them by giving them my vote time after time.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
91. we just can't get to a majority without some of the conservative states and districts
. . . electing Democrats with conservative views.

I think you understate the benefits and importance of a majority. Aside from the very important ability to set the agenda and report out legislation from committees, there is at least a prospect of our agenda advancing behind a Democratic majority (despite the disappointing outcomes). Absolutely no such chance with a republican one.

I just don't think it's as simple as 'holding out for more progressive Democrats to achieve the necessary support in some states to get elected. It's just not achievable in some states, and the consequence of rejecting or withholding ultimate support for the Democratic candidates is not a guarantee that a more progressive one would emerge and succeed.
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joe black Donating Member (514 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
95. How about adding to the list
A real investigation of what happened on 9/11. 70 million spent on Clintons BJ and 1 or 2 spent on a terrorist attack on America WTF.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
97. Oh you will get your wish
and then you can have even LESS of your wanted agenda heard in Congress. Yeah, more Republicans and less Democrats is ALWAYS a good thing. WOOHOO HEALTHCARE REFORM REPEAL I CAN'T WAIT! :sarcasm: :banghead:
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
104. Well it's pretty easy to "compromise" when you know
that it won't ever be your family trying to figure out if they're going to have to choose between eating or paying rent, between medical care and being able to get to work, or even not having to make those choices at all because either choice is more than you can afford. It makes it easy to not only not fight, but to actively screw people.

Unfortunately by not prosecuting the crimes of the Republicans our side is complicit in them.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. you are 100% correct! and that complicity leads to other corrupt complicity ..or direct crimes
themselves..because they know there will never be accountability.

Rule of law is what this nation was predicated on! Without it we are nothing but a shit state.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
108. The Blue Dogs do the work of the pukes while giving the Dems the blame
That is their function.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
109. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator.
 
TheIdiot Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #109
112. Yup... what's that they say about the devil you know...? n/f
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
113. in other words; you'd prefer Democrats be in the minority
because that will make the national party more liberal and give us back the majority at some point? Or do you want us to always be the minority party?



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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-24-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
117. Maybe Dems no longer want the majority.
Maybe they're tired of the bullshit and after much effort and so-so results they want to sit back and watch the Republicans run the show--into the ground.

Personally I wouldn't want to waste my time trying to lead such an ungrateful pack of fools and bigots and liars as much of this country has become.
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