I have decided to oppose this immigration bill

[bluestateguy]

We need to enforce the laws on the books. I don't want America to be turned into a police state to roundup all the illegals--that's not realistic, nor is it good policy. But we do need to enforce our laws and we cannot not tolerate employers who exploit illegal immigrants like this. This bill just institutionalizes a large class of permanent low-skill, low wage, invisible workers who would be unlikely to unionize. That would drive down wages and benefits for all Americans.

And the bill is going to require illegals to go back to their country (for how long, btw?) and then come back, pay back taxes and pay fines? How unrealistic is that? How many of these indigent folks just have $5000 lying around? That's a foolish policy and if implemented, it will result in very few people stepping forward to apply for citizenship this way.

[Critters2]

1. Call your congresscritters!! They need to know that Dems oppose this bill! nt

[snappyturtle]

5. I tried calling and got a bunch of busy signals so

I e-mailed for now. I was reading an article that was on Yahoo last night. In it were quotes from immigrants here (I assume illegal ones) and they said they don't have the money or the time to abide with this bill! In my e-mails this morning I asked the congress critters how they were going to get illegals to come forward? and what if they don't? which I think is likely. They've lived here satisfactorily enough (or they'd leave) why would they bother? I just don't think this bill will work and how much is it going to cost? I think it would be another huge bureaucracy.

edit: K&R

[Deep13]

2. What about the 400K serfs they want to let in every year?

Aliens either need to be citizens or else sent home (or else lawfully visiting). There should never be an outcaste section of society.

I agree with you. This bill is anti-labor. It is the reverse of NAFTA and these other trade arrangements. Instead of sending jobs to cheap labor, we are sending cheap labor to the jobs.

[sandnsea]

4. That's the worst part of the bill

Guest Worker is going to end up just like the Marianas, lots of dormitories around the country, probably shipping container dormitories, for "guest" workers from around the world.

Next thing, Good By American Dream of home ownership for blue collar families, in ten years we'll be in those shipping container dormitories ourselves.

[Norquist Nemesis]

3. "Employer Amnesty"

That's the issue I have with the bill. The 'illegal' or 'undocumented' or whatever is the favored terminology come forward and begin a process, paying penalties, back taxes, end of the line, etc. etc. etc.

I see nothing that has consequences for the people who have been employing them. Why don't the employers have to pay penalties, back taxes, etc.? Was is not illegal for them to have been paying wages as it was for the the people illegally in the country?

Maybe they should add a reward incentive to illegal aliens for full disclosure of who's been employing them.

[sandnsea]

9. They will pay the illegal's taxes and fine

$5,000 fine, $5,000 tax - it's nothing compared to what they'll get away with in cheaper wages and safety regulations from a subjugated work force.

[High Plains]

13. Why do we assume new citizens would be a "subjugated work force"?

Those on the path to citizenship would have the same rights as any other workers. I see this as a good thing.

Immigrant labor has been one of the few pieces of good news for the labor movement in decades.

Where I am, undocumented workers are already getting the same pay as citizens. Do they depress wages? Perhaps marginally. But what really depressed wages in the meat packing industry up here was the busting of the unions back in the 1970s and 1980s.

[sandnsea]

22. Because of "guest worker"

As long as there is a supply of cheap labor, ALL labor is at risk. You can't bring in these workers who can't speak English or don't know there is even such a thing as workers' rights, and think those seeking citizenship will have the voice to counter the "guest worker". They won't. They are an intimidated and subjugated work force, which leaves more and more US citizens equally intimidated. As long as the new citizen knows they can lose their job to the "guest worker", they won't stand up for themselves with a union either. If this guest worker goes through, all workers will be "legal", and working conditions will be worse than ever. Go read up on the Mariana Islands if you don't understand how it will work.

[TahitiNut]

37. Throughout world history, colonial powers have had "guest workers".

In the days of British Empire's peak, Indian and African (and other) servants in England were common. (Just ask the Irish.) Slavery was a byproduct of colonialism - based on the corrupt notion that Capital (whether private or monarchical) was superior to human rights and enfranchisement. The 'ethic' of dealing with human beings as a means (e.g. to make a profit from their labor) instead of an end in themselves is at the root of trafficking in human labor.

I am staunchly opposed to "work visas" and "guest workers" of all kinds. The 'owners' some potentially productive asset, whether it be agricultural land or a meat packing plant, does NOT have some ethical justification to import cheap labor in order to make greater profits from that asset. Our ecoonomic systems are corrupt if they do not serve the community - a "common wealth." It's parasitism.

[sandnsea]

39. Expound

the corrupt notion that Capital (whether private or monarchical) was superior to human rights and enfranchisement.

Is that specifically written by any respected economist anywhere. I've actually never seen that particular strand of words put together - and it's the exact truth and something that might just turn on the light bulb in Blue-Collar-Bob's head.

[TahitiNut]

40. I'm terrible at remembering where or when I read something ... of even if.

I read and browse and peruse for building my own comprehension of a range of topcs (I am not an economist), and filter the stuff I read according to the usual criteria of critical thinking, fact checking and validation, regarding the source and the agenda, and integrating what I read with the understanding I already have of the topic and related topics. My academic "disciplines" are poor in areas of recreational interest (such as politics, psychology, philosophy, and economics) but I'm obsessive about my own "mental ecology."

It just seems remarkable to me that some group of 'capitalists' (capitalism = private ownership of the means of production) can think themselves entitled to treat labor as a commodity - transporting it to the site of their property which, in the absence of labor, has little value and thereby not only profit from the goods produced but 'capitalize' on the incremental value that the presence of workers themselves brings to that capital asset. It's a manipulation of both human beings and the public law for very narrow private gain.

For example ...
Somebody goes out (without actually living there) into an uninhabited area and buys up vacant, unused, undeveloped land cheaply. They then use their influence and connections to arrange for irrigation largely subsidized by the public - possibly using the Army Corps of Engineers as they did in Eastern Washington or a public water project like they have in the Southwest. Then they import "guest workers" under some proviso put into the Federal immigration laws to work the land - not being workers themselves, of course. In this fashion, they enrich themselves, not only by the profit margins on the goods produced but on the capital gains on the asset. (Where both the profit and the gains are taxed at half the rates or less of the labor income.) The 'investment' is actually made by the public and by the workers - but the wealth is far more narrowly shared.

To me, there's something that stinks about that. To me, people legitimately and morally work together for their common weal (or "common wealth") - such as the Commonwealth of Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, or Virginia. In this fashion, we treat human beings as the end ... not as mere means to an end (a narrow, selfish goal). I think that labor and enterprise should be a healthy and supported outgrowth of people living together and collaborating. To me, the trafficking in human labor, whether it be in shipping containers from Asia, semi-trailers from Mexico, or Airbus from Eastern Europe, is just as ethically corrupt as indentured servants, slavery, and white slavery. It's the objectification of human beings.


I'm a strong proponent of honest and lawful migration. (I'd have loved to emigrate to Tahiti for example, but it's PROHIBITED except for the spouse or (adopted) parent of a Tahitian!) I support the idea that people should be able to migrate and become members of another community and work for the 'common weal' of their adopted community. At the same time, I don't believe in an underclass ... a working class without the political and economic enfranchisement of others in the community. There's something very noxious about the idea that 'owners' can enrich themselves by exploiting the impoverishment of people elsewhere. It creates a vested economic interest in the perpetuation and exacerbation of that impoverishment. Instead of benefiting working people, it greases the slope for the greater impoverishment of the many for the enrichment of a few.


Other thoughts on this subject at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/386

[sandnsea]

41. I agree

I find it particularly obnoxious when your "mythical" investor objects to paying taxes when no riches can be had without the infrastructure taxes put in place. I know a lot of poor people who don't understand we wouldn't even have roads if they didn't go where the capitalists want us. That's why that particular set of words "the corrupt notion that Capital (whether private or monarchical) was superior to human rights and enfranchisement" is so powerful. For the Capitalist Elites, it is all about their Capital and they do think it is superior to labor, labor being human beings. I think I've heard other DUers refer to that capitalist argument, so it must be written down somewhere. I think I'm going to take some time and flesh that thought out some more. You ought to use it as a thesis for a book!

[quinnox]

6. I don't like it

If they pass this bill it will not be good for the country, this is a bad bill. For a lot of reasons, some of them already said.

[musette_sf]

7. we have an illegal EMPLOYER problem

not an "illegal immigration" problem. i am with you. i plan to spend some of my weekend writing my congresscritters and also Ted K.

[sheerjoy]

18. So?

"Illegal" just means a sick bird anymore.:sarcasm:

[NNN0LHI]

8. So what is your answer then?

How do you enforce the laws on the books without rounding up 12 million people?

I am all ears.

Don

[sandnsea]

10. Jail the illegal employers n/t

[pampango]

28. That'll get rid of those illegal immigrants. Get rid of the jobs and

away they go. Of course, you might get an argument from those who think fines will work or from those who prefer execution (just trying to be a bad-ass here) to mere imprisonment for illegal employers. You might also get an argument from those who think that these millions of hard working people are actually an asset to the US.

You might even be able to sign up some freepers for a proposal that sends those illegals (whose ethnicity shall not be named) back home and away from good ol' America.

[Deep13]

11. One does not need to know a solution to know this isn't it.

The experts need to come up with a better idea.

[snappyturtle]

12. This may not be much of an answer but

these illegals did not all come at one time. The government needs to put the word out they're going to seriously (for once) crack down on employers. Then little by little send people back who are illegal...and fine the empoyers big time. Sounds heartless I know but there comes a time when we must recognize that we won't be any help to the poor of other countries or to ourselves if we don't get this under control. Let those who legally apply come into the country.

[High Plains]

14. One train car load at a time?

[snappyturtle]

16. I think an air conditioned bus would be better. I'm not saying

they can't come back but use the immigration policy so many citizens have used. I can't see where this would be any more costly than the pending bill. It would take time but it would also stem the flow into the country. imho

[jayfish]

30. Let's Flesh This Out A Little Bit.

The first part of any attempt to send these folks back home must be a real effort to secure our borders. Once we have secured our border the rest is a matter of priorities.
In 2003 D.H.S estimated that there were 8-12 million illegal aliens in the US and 700k new aliens entering per year. Using those numbers we can estimate an illegal population of 10-14 million in the us as of sometime this year. Now, in the march 2005 "Drug Control Strategy" data supplement, the White House reported that 1.6 million persons were arrested for drug violations in 2003. We've been fighting the drug war for decades without making even the slightest mark. I propose is that we end the drug war today and refocus its' wasted resources on getting these folks back home. If we were to repatriate 1.6 million illegals per year we could have a majority of illegals home sometime in 2011. Two-thirds could be home by 2013. The remainder could be home by 2016. IMO, It beats putting more American citizens in jail for non-violent "crimes".

Jay

[Double T]

15. I'm certain Bank of America (aka BOA) will be more than happy to provide..........

illegal alien immigration loans with each new checking, savings and credit card account. 'We' want to give all potential Americans the right to become indentured slaves to criminal corporate america. Oh, and as far as the illegal immigration bill is concerned, I vote :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: and :thumbsdown: !!!

[sheerjoy]

17. I am so widya! n/t

[phoreten]

19. I am with you. I am against this bill.

All we have to do is build the fence, discourage Mexico from aggressively pushing north their poor and uneducated, and make it easier for employers to distinguish forged papers from legal papers so they can (safely without being sued) refuse to hire those presenting forged documents.

[EFerrari]

20. This bill will break up families. It undoes the values of family

and community that human rights activists worked so hard to get put into law. :(

[TahitiNut]

25. Whenever people emigrate, they "break up" their own families.

When my grandparents immigrated, they each left family behind in Norway. I have relatives in Norway. I count that as a positive, not a negative. I regard international family relationships as GOOD, not "bad."

Perhaps you believe there're foreign agents asking "do you have family in the old country??"

Hmmm?

[EFerrari]

27. Perhaps you should take your values and opinions on the road

and re-educate Latino families. Hmmmmmm?

[TahitiNut]

29. Perhaps you should take your values and opinions ...

... and (deleted)

:eyes:

You again seem incapable of responding without snark and rude personal innuendo.

It seems remarkable, to say the least, that you can imply that the opinions regarding the immigration policies of the U.S. somehow more validly come from those who are not citizens, not residents, or who may have violated the laws in being here than from citizens of the U.S. who disagree with you. This kind of ad hominem attitude is truly bizarre - particularly in a forum about as devoid of the kind of right-wing, racist and xenophobic attitudes as one could find in this country.

[EFerrari]

31. I will not respond to this. I will just let it sit there.

[TahitiNut]

33. Wow. Talk about self-contradictory! Oxymorons'R'Us?

The sneering condescension and snark just drips from your posts on this subject. Unreal!

[EFerrari]

34. Okay

[Critters2]

35. LOL!!!

I won't respond!! Great response!!

[EFerrari]

38. I wouldn't want to distract from the logic, the tone or the message.

:rofl:

[gravity]

21. Employers don't force immigrants to take the jobs

Immigrants choose to work in this country because it's the best opportunity for them to have a better life, even if the wage isn't up to American standards.

[TahitiNut]

26. Interesting. So, it's wonderful that Saudi Arabia employs all those Egyptians?

That's it. Saudi Arabia is a model for us. Wow.

[Critters2]

36. The minimum wage is the law!!! It should be enforced! nt

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Stop tying all 'illegal' immigrants to poor 'indigent' folks! Less than 50% of all those

millions are from Mexico. There are over 100,000 from the Middle East, 24,000 from Israel, 40,000 from Pakistan, 243,000 from Africa, and similar numbers from almost all countries of the world. 45% of those 'illegals' have overstayed their visas.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917
http://www.cis.org/index.cgi

[chaska]

24. Didn't I hear something about iris scans and fingerprints?

Fuck this surveillance state shit. That alone is reason enough to oppose it.

[jerryme1]

32. Will free wheeling Bush create another agency to run this program

just in time for the Dems to oversee it? If this measure passes, democrats will take the hit down the road.