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Data explodes "Chicago turnaround miracle myth" that Arne took to DC and the nation.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:03 AM
Original message
Data explodes "Chicago turnaround miracle myth" that Arne took to DC and the nation.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 12:45 AM by madfloridian
This is an interesting look at the Chicago schools and how they fared following Arne Duncan. Mike Klonskly's blog presents it well.

The Chicago Tribune got hold of data from last year that the powers that be in education there decided not to publish.

They just simply decided not to publish the school's A to F grades.

Daley/Huberman fall victim to their own poor grades

Here is the chart that the newspaper published. Very clear and not very pleasant outcomes.


The CPS document stolen by the Tribune shows the grade ranges that corresponded with the schools' numeric standardized test scores. Shades of the Tribune Co.-owned L.A. Times' release of internal rankings of supposed value-added, based exclusively on students' standardized test scores

So the sneaky bastards at the Tribune somehow got hold of Ron Huberman's secret stash of school ratings and published them. Oh, goody!

.."Because this time around, it's Huberman and outgoing Mayor Daley who are being (apologies to Shakespeare) hoisted with their own petard. Huberman came up with the A-B-C-D-F rating system for schools, to use to justify his massive school-closing scheme under Renaissance 2010. This, after the legislature forced the district to show some rationale for its arbitrary punishment and closing policies .

Among city elementary schools, 47 of 474 received As, while just 4 of 92 high schools met that mark. Meanwhile, 104 elementary schools and 39 high schools got Fs. But these grades have little, if any validity when it comes to judging the quality of individual schools or teachers. In most cases they are just coded measures of school or neighborhood poverty. Without mentioning any school names, I know of several excellent schools that received grades of C or C-, based only on standardized test scores.


The blogger makes an excellent point. Many very good schools in Florida were victims of what is thought to be the screwed up scoring of the FCAT which was finally released, though very late.

The Tribune said this:

Huberman last year pushed for those scores to be tied to decisions about closings the highest sanction a school can face. Huberman said he did not release the grades because they need to be more nuanced. The data does not take individual student growth into account, and school-wide comparisons can be imperfect, he said.


Wait, is he saying what I have been saying here for ages? That not enough criteria are used to grade students, teachers, and schools. I do think he is saying that. Yet the DOE under Arne Duncan is continuing to push for more tests and more money to pay for more testing.

Observers caution that a single grade can't assess the complex work of fashioning the school system into a functioning body.


Yet when many of us say that...we are told that teachers need to be accountable. The "bad" teacher, "bad" school syndrome has taken over our country now.

And I say amen to the blogger's final comment:

After 15 years of mayoral control of the schools and hundreds of millions of dollars invested in Daley's test-crazy, privatization reforms which included neighborhood school closings, mass teacher firings, and privately-managed charter schools, the system has again flunked its own grading system. Some of the worst grades were assigned to some of the most highly touted charter schools. The implications extend far beyond Chicago since the current secretary of education was one of the architects and chief implementer of the failed renaissance and is now leveraging badly-needed federal funding to force these same failed policies on the states.


There is much harm being done to education now in the name of "reform". I have never seen a time when teachers were treated so contemptuously...and it is done in tune with the Department of Education.

Before even waiting to see how Chicago was faring under the reforms, they sent it out to be the plan for the nation.
Test, test, expand the tests, add more to them, and judge only the teachers by them.




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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
:kick:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
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mike r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just a continuation of GWB's 'No Child Left Behind' scam
and fraud.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. They say other criteria were used, but they don't say what.
And by golly they don't hesitate to punish teachers if they don't produce. Huberman and Daley were in charge and this was on their watch.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. The continuation of any of junior's policies or initiatives will come back to bite one hard in the
political ass, as the writer has so often opined on this board. Why? Because all were badly-flawed, wrong-headed, or simply implementation of a long-held extreme RW PNAC agenda, or worse like illegal, and that includes the whole kit and caboodle of them without exception. ;)
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
89. IMO, another smash-&-grab, like Iraq. This was designed to sell Neil's "IGNITE":
Edited on Sun Sep-12-10 08:22 AM by WinkyDink
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #89
92. The BFEE has it's grubby paws in everything.
Wonder if they're selling arms to the Taliban.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
4. You want measurement of student growth?
"'Huberman said he did not release the grades because they need to be more nuanced. The data does not take individual student growth into account, and school-wide comparisons can be imperfect, he said.'

Wait, is he saying what I have been saying here for ages? That one test score is not a good measure?"

Well looky here - Arne Duncan must be your hero:

DOE Race to the Top Executive Summary and Key Policy Details

"Reform Plan Criteria (D)(2) (i) Establish clear approaches to measuring student growth (as defined in this notice) and measure it
for each individual student; (5 points)

(ii) Design and implement rigorous, transparent, and fair evaluation systems for teachers and principals that (a) differentiate effectiveness using multiple rating categories that take into account data on student growth (as defined in this notice) as a significant factor, and (b) are designed and developed with teacher and principal involvement; (15 points)

(iii) Conduct annual evaluations of teachers and principals that include timely and constructive feedback; as part of such evaluations, provide teachers and principals with data on student growth for their students, classes, and schools; and (10 points)..."


Just what does "student growth" mean?

"Student growth means the change in student achievement (as defined in this notice) for an individual student between two or more points in time. A State may also include other measures that are rigorous and comparable across classrooms."


And what does "student achievement" mean?

"Student achievement means
(a) For tested grades and subjects: (1) a students score on the States assessments under the ESEA; and, as appropriate, (2) other measures of student learning, such as those described in paragraph (b) of this definition, provided they are rigorous and comparable across classrooms.
(b) For non-tested grades and subjects: alternative measures of student learning and performance such as student scores on pre-tests and end-of-course tests; student performance on English language proficiency assessments; and other measures of student achievement that are rigorous and comparable across classrooms."


www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/executive-summary.pdf

There you have it. So please stop repeating this "one test score" nonsense. :eyes:

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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. I applaud the move toward fixing the problem of not measuring ...
...growth. That is definitely worth doing. But this...and the test score problemms in NYC, DC and elsewhere...just further demonstrate that we don't have data collection right yet. And so I repeat...until we do, we should NOT use it as even a fraction of teacher evaluations.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
35. Good work, wtmusic. Of course it will get lost in the din.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
58. The bottom line?
Whatever other measures are included, it's going to be the standardized scores on state standardized tests that drive everything.

And those scores don't measure what politicians and the ignorant want them to.



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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #58
63. What are you basing that on? nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. 27 years spent working in public education, seeing first-hand how
mandates are handled at state, county, district, and site levels, including the most current, those in Obama's "blueprint."

Sitting in district committees going over legislation and funding requirements, working to produce systems to document compliance with those mandates.

Listening to what school boards and district superintendents are saying about new requirements.

Paying attention to school board meetings.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Race to the Top is not a mandate.
It's a program to distribute federal funds which are applied for. States have the option of applying, or not.

I'm only interested in specifically how "standardized tests drive everything" with schools who have received RTTT funds - in spite of requirements that they do not. :shrug:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. No, it's not, and I'm glad my state chose not to participate in the 2nd round.
Many of the elements found in RTTT are also found in Obama's "blueprint for education," which is what is in the process of taking the place of NCLB.

Standardized tests drive everyone, not just RTTT competitors. As long as those tests have high stakes attached, they are the driver.

And they do have high-stakes attached. Under the Bush administration, tests were used to threaten schools with take-overs, and to institute "approved" school improvement plans for districts who had a school that didn't meet AYP for 3 years. Note that the "school improvement plans" were forced on the entire district, even if only one school didn't make AYP, and that "approval" meant standardization, and adopting Bush-administration approved "reforms" like commercially produced scripted curriculums.

Under RTTT, schools whose high-stakes scores don't make the grade are supposed to fire entire staffs, close schools, re-open as charters, fire admins...there are 4 choices.

The high-stakes have increased, since the scores will now be applied to teacher's evaluations and salaries.

Again, please note: It doesn't matter how many other measures you include when the standardized scores are driving everything.

Take a look at how measures are combined. It's clear which measures do the driving. In the end, it's the high stakes that corrupt the whole assessment process.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. That's incorrect.
"Under RTTT, schools whose high-stakes scores don't make the grade are supposed to fire entire staffs, close schools, re-open as charters, fire admins...there are 4 choices."

Show me where.

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/executive-summ...
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Here:
Click on "application;" it will download a 103 page word file. The 4 options for dealing with "under achieving" schools are in section X, on pages 72 - 45.

http://www2.ed.gov/programs/racetothetop/applicant.html

You can read them without downloading at the nysed site:

http://www.oms.nysed.gov/press/attachb_jan2010.html

You can read one of many responses here:

Under Race to the Top, chronically underperforming schools must apply one of four approved interventions. These are:

* "Transformation, where the principal is replaced and teachers receive intensive professional development;
* Turnaround, where the principal and at least fifty percent of staff are replaced;
* Restart, where a school undergoes a conversion or is shut down and reopened under outside management, such as a charter;
* Closure, where the school is closed and students are enrolled in a nearby, higher achieving school.

The leadership is acting on the basis of theories, hunches, or preferences, but not research or evidence or controlled experiments, said Diane Ravitch, research professor of education at New York University and a former assistant secretary of education under George H.W. Bush. The strategy of closing schools will be encouraged by RttT, and thousands of schools are likely to be terminated, dissolving neighborhood schools and replacing them with privately managed charters.

She added that RttT will place even greater emphasis on test scores in a data-driven environment.

The four turnaround strategies resemble those introduced by NCLB for schools that persistently failed to reach academic achievement goals set by states under the law. Research, however, has raised questions about whether these interventions work.


http://www.thenotebook.org/february-2010/102201/evidenc...


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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #73
102. Ah, so you're lumping all schools with "chronically underperforming" schools
and I see you had to fall back on an assistant SofE under Dubya (who also considers the founder of the charter school movement her "mentor") for your claim that RTTT, which she has absolutely nothing to do with, will place greater emphasis on test scores.

Anyone in the current administration who shares her view?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #102
131. to get rttt money, you have to sign on to the program of dumping your lowest 5% of schools.
rttt is an acceleration of nclb. if you don't get it, look at the language, some of which is adopted wholesale, as is the principle of closing schools & firing personnel as the "solution" for "failure".

nclb eventually turns all schools into "failing" schools.
rttt does the same thing, at 5% a year. it's faster than nclb, but the goal is the same.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
100. The whole "school reform" BS is nothing but a distraction from the problems of poverty
Everything I read tells me that overall, kids from relatively affluent areas who go to relatively affluent schools do better than kids from deprived areas going to poor schools. We know this, have known it for about forever. So why the hell are we pouring a gazillion $$ into testing teachers before we pour that money into jobs, housing, services, and the schools themselves for deprived areas?

And blaming the parents is no help. People are products of their environments. Change the environment. Give kids even a half-way fair shake - then lets see what happens and how "good" our students and teachers are.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. Neglect education until employment and housing parity is reached?
This isn't an either/or.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
125. "Just what does 'student growth' mean?"
Er...that they're TALLER at the end of the school year?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. I say we go a step further.
Whatever standards are used to grade schools, teachers, and students...publish it all. Good, bad, or neutral. Let it all out.

Publish the students' test score as well as teachers....maybe they will "shape up" like teachers are being told to do.

Let's make it all public, let it all hang out.

Let Arne take responsibility, let Daley and Huberman be accountability.

They don't have the right to decide not to publish bad news.

So go for it. Start in pretending I am saying teachers don't need to be accountable. It happens in every thread.

There is such denial. Teachers were NOT held in contempt like this under Bush's administration. It's being done to defend an indefensible position by this administration, and that's a shame.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. How, in your opinion, should teachers be held accountable? nt
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. They're already held accountable.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. How are they being held accountable? Very few are ever removed for poor performance.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Because very few perform poorly
It's not all that hard to understand.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #41
61. No, it's because it costs half a million dollars to fire a bad teacher.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 05:58 PM by wtmusic
"Trying to fire a bad teacher in L.A. can cost the city up to half a million bucks, and almost never happens, according to a new L.A. Weekly investigative report.

The Weekly's story paints a picture of a slow, untransparent system where teachers interests trump those of the city or students.

But the far larger problem in L.A. is one of "performance cases" -- the teachers who cannot teach, yet cannot be fired. Their ranks are believed to be sizable -- perhaps 1,000 teachers, responsible for 30,000 children. But in reality, nobody knows how many of LAUSD's vast system of teachers fail to perform. Superintendent Ramon Cortines tells the Weekly he has a "solid" figure, but he won't release it. In fact, almost all information about these teachers is kept secret.

But the Weekly has found, in a five-month investigation, that principals and school district leaders have all but given up dismissing such teachers. In the past decade, LAUSD officials spent $3.5 million trying to fire just seven of the district's 33,000 teachers for poor classroom performance -- and only four were fired, during legal struggles that wore on, on average, for five years each."

http://www.kcet.org/socal/voices/city-of-angles/firing-...

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual non-farm turnover rate is 39.6%. In the LA Unified School District the rate is .03%, or about 1/1,300th of the national average.

So either teachers are 1,300 times better employees than the rest of us, or they've exploited the system so they don't have to be accountable to anyone.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #61
76. This should be it's own thread. A half million to fire a bad teacher. Yikes.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
77. Uh huh...one city, one article, the bureau of labor which seldom gets anything right, and
a sum total of lousy administrators who may have negotiated an even lousier contract with their employees.

Supposed Sum total: 3.5 million

That cost would barely cover the cost of one lousy politicians campaign nowadays. And God knows we have a plethora of shit ass politicians.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #77
106. Even if the Bureau of Labor Statistics is off by a factor of ten
teachers firings would still be 130x less common than those in the private sector.

Since you disagree with their numbers, you must have more accurate ones, right? Didn't think so. :eyes:

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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #106
111. No one has "accurate"numbers because no one accepts the current criteria
for evaluations anyway. Any numbers represented are not going to measure squat.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #111
114. The current criteria varies from state to state.
Which criteria are you referring to?
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. Varies from District to District too.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. So no one accepts the current criteria, but you can't identify what that is.
Wonderful. :eyes:
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. That's my point honey. No one can. But thanks for trying!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Your "point" makes no sense.
And I'm not trying any longer, because it's a waste of my time. :hi:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #106
132. bullshit. i already proved your bullshit wrong, & you just ignore it & keep pretending
Edited on Mon Sep-13-10 11:33 AM by Hannah Bell
your bullshit is gospel. and then you accuse others -- how ironic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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mrdmk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #61
79. Los Angeles School District is an exception, not a rule
Starting with this:



At the end of the 2010 school year, LAUSD had over 678,000 K - 12 students. Over 1,000,000 students if you count the continuing adult education program. That is mammoth.

LAUSD has been taking heat since the 1970's about being too big, not living up to standards, even having to educate the wrong students, and it goes on. Now it is all of the teachers fault. Now here is something for you to chew on, LAUSD had such a problem keeping enough teachers in the class room during the 1990's, the school district was educating potential teachers on a fast track to receive their teaching credential as fast as possible (this was mainly due to a lot LAUSD teachers being fed-up with their jobs and leaving). Now the district cannot fire these teachers. Obviously, the LAUSD has not fixed any of the problems it has had in the past forty odd years and/or it is just an easy target for a hit piece by the L.A. Weekly. Or maybe, just maybe the LAUSD is just to stupid to fire anybody!

Link to the referred article: http://www.laweekly.com/2010-02-11/news/lausd-s-dance-o... /


Speaking of the LA Weekly, the author of the L.A. Weekly piece LAUSD's Dance of the Lemons, Beth Barret put out another piece how the Charter Schools are not being given a fair chance by the LAUSD. Ms. Barret seems to be an author with an agenda.

Link to the referred article: http://www.laweekly.com/2010-03-11/news/insiders-versus... /


Now we can talk about the teachers in LAUSD taking this hit. Living in Los Angeles is not an easy place to live and work, more-or-less to get educated in. The area has a lot of neglect, adverse living conditions, and very real social problems. These areas of concern are not being addressed by local leaders. Not only do the students live in this mess but so do the teachers, administrators, and anybody else that works for the district. The first and real problem with the school district is it is too large. Nobody is going to fix any problems in that school system until it is cut down to a reasonable size, then the real fixes can start. The size of the school district cannot be blamed on the teachers.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
103. Unless, of course, your kids go there.
What is it you don't get about the district being unable to fire teachers because it costs too much? The unions throw up a wall of legal defense that the district can't possibly afford to fight.

I agree with you that LAUSD is too big, and the area it encompasses is rife with social/economic problems. But no one is saying "it is all the teachers fault", which is just an attempt at deflection.

I am saying it's the fault of some teachers and those teachers keep their jobs because of intimidation. Or maybe you can explain to me why Carlos Polanco shouldn't be in jail, much less teaching in a public-school classroom:

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/03/local/me-teache...
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #61
83. Do you actually believe it takes a half million to fire a teacher?
Let me guess, you also believe that there are lots of welfare queens driving around in new Caddys, that trickle down economics actually work, and that ketchup is actually a vegetable.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. +100. I've already found some falsehoods in this cadillac story.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #83
101. Did you read the article?
Do you dispute the numbers, and if so, why?

Or...is all you have ad hominems? :eyes:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #101
130. yes, i disputed your numbers. i notice you didn't acknowledge or respond.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #61
84. Turnover rate = quits, layoffs, discharges, retirements & other separations.
Turnover rate (Job Openings and Labor Turnover Survey)

The number of total separations during the month divided by the number of employees who worked during or received pay for the pay period that includes the 12th of the month (monthly turnover); the number of total separations for the year divided by average monthly employment for the year (annual turnover).

http://www.bls.gov/bls/glossary.htm .


Annual turnover was 41% in 2009. (Table 14)

And that's for *all* jobs, the majority of which are service jobs, i.e. restaurant, fast foods, walmart clerks, hotel housekeepers, etc -- & those jobs turnover a lot faster than "professional" jobs, mainly because they suck. In professional jobs, you don't *want* high turnover.

In educational services, turnover rate in 2009 was 27.7%, in the same tier with health care & financial services, & higher than other government jobs.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/jolts_03092010...


It's highly unlikely LAUSD's turnover rate = .03%.

And in fact, it's bullshit: from their own human resources dept:

Turnover for new teachers 2003-2008 = 32%
For all classroom teachers, same period = 24%.

http://www.teachinla.com/research/faq_notebook/d-1.pdf


And since that comparison & number is major bullshit, it's my belief that many of the other items in the article are bullshit too.

For example, the article implies LAUSD has no "rubber rooms". But it does: according to this 2009 article, there were 160 teachers in LA's version of the "rubber rooms" sitting it out while their "job fitness is reviewed". Which signifies that, contrary to the assertion in the article that LAUSD doesn't even *try* to get rid of teachers anymore, it was trying to get rid of 160 of them when the 2009 article was written.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/06/local/me-teache... .







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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
88. Bingo! One would think that our schools were infested with teachers who are
ineffective, inefficient, lazy and stupid. Most here, if they considered all the teachers in their particular school system, would be hard pressed to find a teacher who fits that mold.

Teachers are being scapegoated by Duncan and Obama, when the causes of school failure are much more complex. Arne Duncan is not an educator. Neither is Pres. Obama.



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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #88
104. In a district of 30,000 teachers, 11 are fired every year.
Notice anything unusual about that?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #104
133. LA has 43,700 teachers. your "11" is a number you made up based on your phony
allegation that LA has .03% turnover.

Which I've already demonstrated is bullshit.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. First, it takes years to get "tenure," such as it is. Usually about 3.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 01:49 PM by Hannah Bell
Which gives admins plenty of time to judge the teacher's performance (they're evaluated regularly) & get rid of them if they want, or for the teacher to self-select out.

Second, even with "tenure," teachers are observed and evaluated regularly & can be fired for cause -- and are. The only thing "tenure" guarantees is that they can't be fired summarily and arbitrarily, without due process. Not to mention that parents and peers also give criticism to administration that teachers are held accountable for.

But you already knew that. And continue to spam the right-wing talking points. And to ignore any & all criticism or accountability for the poor results of the bullshit "reforms". Such as: the same policies that are being used to dump unionized teachers are ignored when it comes to charters & deform schools, & those who run & promote them.

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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #42
127. Three years is not enough. And it should have to be renewed on a regular basis.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #127
129. Three years isn't enough to figure out whether an employee is competent?
If not, I'd say that shows management is either 1) incompetent or 2) being asked to deal with too many employees.

and since administration personnel in education is currently nearly equal to the number of teachers, i'd say it must be 1).

as for "review," teachers' performance is *already* reviewed regularly.

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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
59. Like you for example?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. Let's publish attendance records
I had a student who lives right across the street from school finally show up on day 4. Mom apologized for her late entry and claimed they did not know where the child was supposed to attend school. (Um, how about that big brick building you can see from your house?!)

Another one showed up a week late because "no one at my house told me school had started".

Still waiting on 4 others to waltz in.

For once I'd like to see our media cover this story - why are parents never held accountable??
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. AGAIN...may I reiterate. Of course teachers should be accountable.
They already are. There are many standards set they must meet. The favorite argument when I post is that I don't think teachers should be held accountable.

I reiterate...I do think so. I always was held accountable in many ways. Teachers are held accountable.

Now it is time to hold administrators accountable and students as well.

And yes, tenured teachers can be fired for just cause. Of course they can.

But relax and take a deep breath...there won't be tenure when this administration is done.

Chicago schools did not do well under Arne and Huberman, and Huberman decided not to publish the scores. Bottom line.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
38. Well, that's good news! 'There won't be teacher tenure when this adminisration is done'. Finally.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 01:45 PM by Diane R
Teaching is one of the very few professions that essentially guarantees a lifetime of employment. Yes, they get evaluated. No, they are not removed for poor evaluations. It is very rare for a teacher to lose their job because of performance.

I support President Obama and Arne Duncan's efforts to raise the standards for people who teach our children.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I support raising the standards for the parents who raise our children
If you can't even get out of bed and get your kid to school, there isn't much a teacher can do to educate that child.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
138. Not a bad idea.
Your kid is late to school x percent of the time? Boink! There goes your tax deduction.

I like it.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. thanks for catapulting the propaganda once again.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #38
60. And once again the Guru with an opinion and no facts spouts the same sorry mantra
Really Diane, if you taught school with the same repetitious message style as you use when you post I can't say I'm surprised you are no longer teaching.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Here are some facts.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #68
87. One of which I've already demonstrated to be complete bullshit.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 11:45 PM by Hannah Bell
"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual non-farm turnover rate is 39.6%. In the LA Unified School District the rate is .03%, or about 1/1,300th of the national average."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


It appears to be your own bullshit contribution to the bullshit article you posted.

1) It implies the BLS's measure of "turnover" is something other than what it is (it's actually all separations: retirements, layoffs, firings, quits & 'other')
2) It gives a number for LAUSD turnover that's demonstrably false (see the link from LAUSD's personnel dept).


So much for your fucking "facts".
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
78. WHy do people push far right memes on a Democratic message board?
:puke:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. because they're far-righties? that would be my guess.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #86
90. I disagree
It's always "big bad unions" and "you can't fire bad teachers" which leads me to believe that it's a grudge or some unresolved personal issue.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. both = far-right memes of long-standing. i remember hearing them in the 70s.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
81. Hey, Chancellor Rhee!
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
94. Sigh...
Well, Diane, you just can't seem to stop beating your 'bad teacher' drum, can you?

Let's look at this 'reform' from the other side, shall we? Let's pretend that you (and all those like you) succeed in populating public education with 'good teachers.' Is that going to 'fix' public education? How would a system of public education populated only with good teachers compare to our current system of public education? Please, DO share with us your vision of this improved system of public education.

I've asserted to you that any attempt to assign blame to 'bad teachers' for the myriad issues degrading our system of public education is simplistic (and absurd). Upon further reflection (and research), I have to add that these attempts smack of a political agenda that will further stratify our nation and 'adjust' public education so that the majority who survive this archaic and stultifying system will be resigned to a lifetime of servitude to the corporatists who've already imposed this agenda in corporate America. "Welcome to Walmart!"... "Would you like fries with that?" (I'm particularly concerned, because I wouldn't look good in that little blue vest...)

FWIW, one seldom sees our children in these discussions. God forbid we should engage our youth in a rigorous discussion of their perceptions of the contemporary challenges they face, and the future(s) they can imagine. Oh, noes, we can't possibly solicit our children's opinions, because they're just supposed to be seen and not heard, right? They should be grateful for our dedication to their intellectual growth and sociocultural well-being, because--God knows!--we adults are the authorities here!

Pah! Ours is NOT a child-centric society, Diane. If it were, we would not need 'education reform.'


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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. You mean, just like GW's supposed Texas miracle? Who knew? nt
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. And like Arne and his miracle. Rod Paige became Sec. of Ed.
Amazing, ain't it.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
10. "the system has again flunked its own grading system."
Because it bears repeating.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Indeed it does.
:hi:
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. "It's Time To Listen To Teachers On Issues Of Education"
http://www.enewspf.com/index.php/opinion/18594-its-time...
Why is it that the last people listened to regarding problems in public education are the ones who deal with it on the front line day after day?

Chicago's Renaissance 2010 education plan came onto the charts back in 2004. Immediately, classroom teachers pointed out its many flaws. Were they listened to? Of course not. Instead, Mayor Richard M. Daley and now U.S. Secretary of Education -- then Chicago Public Schools Chief Executive Officer -- Arne Duncan pushed ahead with a program that had come not from the educational community, but rather from the business community.

Lest anyone forget, that's the same business community that has demonstrated questionable wisdom in the world of finance, ultimately leading the United States into its current economic crisis.

When teachers voiced their outrage over some of the proposals contained in the Ren 2010 plan, they were accused by both politicians and the media of being concerned only with selfish interests. Newspaper editorials declared that teachers only were protecting their jobs, only were complaining because they wanted to duck accountability. CPS administrators said "bad" teachers were the problem in Chicago, and so they used Ren 2010 as a way to get rid of seasoned teachers, claiming that the complete "turn-around" of some schools was needed in order to give the students at those sites a quality education.

Of course, the Chicago Teachers Union argued to the contrary. "Teachers don't make the decisions that are causing failure in the Chicago Public Schools," then CTU President Marilyn Stewart said in an open letter to Arne Duncan in February 2006. "Rather, those decisions are made by the high-priced, non-educator, bureaucrats who work for you."


Much more at the link.

:hi:
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. I've read this part before...
where was it? Oh yeah, it pops up here on DU. Recognize it?

When teachers voiced their outrage over some of the proposals contained in the Ren 2010 plan, they were accused by both politicians and the media of being concerned only with selfish interests. Newspaper editorials declared that teachers only were protecting their jobs, only were complaining because they wanted to duck accountability. CPS administrators said "bad" teachers were the problem in Chicago, and so they used Ren 2010 as a way to get rid of seasoned teachers, claiming that the complete "turn-around" of some schools was needed in order to give the students at those sites a quality education.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. Exactly
The same tactics and arguments which were used in Chicago to propel this plan are now being used nationwide and repeated here.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. That's a great column. It mirrors comments toward those of us...
who post about education here at DU.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. That it does
Thanks again for the OP.
It's really stunning this can go on.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
108. By John A. Ostenburg, Who's Never Taught a Day of School in His Life
Edited on Sun Sep-12-10 02:24 PM by wtmusic
yet managed to get a political appointment the Chicago Teacher's Union:

"Four of the most powerful people in the union today hold appointed positions, not elected ones. They are: John Ostenburg, a former State Rep. who currently holds the title Chief of Staff, Nick Cannella, who has had various titles during the past year, but is usually called a Coordinator, Lawrence Poltrock, the unions chief attorney, and Rosemarie Genova, the unions publicist.

More than the remaining to officers whom Marilyn Stewart recognizes, appointed staff are controlling the union and handling stragegy. After the controversial vote on the CTU budget in June 2008, Ostenburg was observed hurrying down the aisle in the House of Delegates calling for adjournment. Ostenburg has never taught in Chicagos public schools and was never a union delegate representing CTU members."

http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=582
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #108
136. Your point being that what he says is false?
Edited on Mon Sep-13-10 12:15 PM by Hannah Bell
Or your point being that people who've never spent time teaching shouldn't make pronouncements on education?

Well fire arne duncan & half of the charter school establishment, then.


FYI, That guy's position didn't exist before 2004 & he was appointed by the collaborationist union leader stewart for his political expertise, the better to ram school deform policies through.

that's why ctu recently had an upset election which put an anti-deform slate into power.

substance news is an outlet for the "union reform" faction that supporter the anti-deform slate & the rebellion against the collaborationists who sold out their membership to daley & duncan's renaissance 2010, the pilot for obama's "reforms".
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
14. Obama said yesterday during his speech
that the new plan for education was working well and it would continue
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yes, I think they will continue it no matter what educators think.
I think it was a plan set in concrete before he was elected.

As a matter of fact billionaire Eli Broad says the stars were aligned for reform with Obama and Arne

There will be no stopping them, and there will be no going back.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. I know. I support President Obama...
...only nearly all his policies. But he appears to have a blind spot on education, IMHO.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Me too
I disagree with him on education and the war. But I think he's a good man and not evil like Bush. I remember the good he has done, which has been significant. I still get a thrill remembering watching him sign the Lily Ledbetter Act.

Of course disagreeing with any of his policies here gets you labeled as some sort of traitor. And I'm ready to be blamed for Democratic losses in November.

Sad. I was raised in a very solid Democratic family and was taught it was my duty to speak out when I disagreed with elected officials.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. I will vote Democratic in November...
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 03:19 PM by YvonneCa
...and I support OFA because I really think most of Obama's policies are good AND because I think we need an intelligent thinker in the White House. President Obama is that. But I do understand educators who feel differently. I know several who worked for him on the ground who aren't sure about doing that now.

You said, "I was raised in a very solid Democratic family and was taught it was my duty to speak out when I disagreed with elected officials." So was I. Sometimes one has a duty to speak out...as teachers are now. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact I believe it is patriotic to do so.

Eventually, I hope others will come to understand that. It's one of the reasons I still support Senator Kerry.

For the most part, I think we Democrats are still on the same team...just with a few 'family squabbles.' :7 :hi:


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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #14
54. Obama can be wrong.
Really wrong. As can any human being.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
62. Uh huh...and George Bush said there were WMD in Iraq.
Does it ever register with people that presidents are politicians first and leaders second?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
75. Guess we need a working definition of "well"..
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. recommend
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Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
17. Aw, ferget about that.....

How much money was made?

Get yer priorities straight.

k&r
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
18. here`s a big factor that no one wants to talk about..
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/09/bowen-studen...

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/09/no-bail-for-...

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/08/police-teen-...

it`s just starting.....

but this year many neighborhoods have volunteers who form a safe corridor to provide protection for students to walk home through. maybe this will cut down on the violence children experience to and from school.

children have a hard time learning when they are afraid of the world around them.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Sadly, this does not only happen in...
...Chicago. And I agree with your last statement completely: "...children have a hard time learning when they are afraid of the world around them."

I've said for a very long time that adults in this country need to take responsibility for fixing what is wrong in this country that allows this to happen in a child's world. It's why I've taught conflict resolution. It's why I support President Obama.

I just think the President is missing the boat here if he continues to see teachers as the problem in public education. We know a lot about the problems in education and want to help fix it.

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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
19. K and R
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
20. k & r
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
23. Kick.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
24. Huberman pushed to close schools based on that data...
From the Tribune:

"Many critics have labeled the district as failing over the years, and individual schools have continuously failed to meet standards under the federal No Child Left Behind Act. What's novel about this measure is that it offers a glimpse of the district's own view of school quality. It's important, too, because Huberman last year pushed for those scores to be tied to decisions about closings the highest sanction a school can face."

..."More than 300 schools are on probation this year, the highest number since 1996-1997, according to an analysis conducted by Designs for Change, an education nonprofit.

"Probation has become a back-door method for recentralizing the school system to strip Local School Councils, principals and teachers of their decision-making opportunities," wrote Valenica Rias-Winstead, an associate at the research group, in a February report.

Others see the grades as sad confirmation that billions of dollars and decades of reform have yielded little more than higher property taxes in the city. The data is from the 14th and what will likely be the penultimate year that Mayor Richard M. Daley controls the school system."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/education/ct-met-cps...

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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
26. K&R
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
31. All these plans are set up for failure, that's the success of them...
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 01:00 PM by maryf
for the designers like Arne (actually he's just a mouthpiece for the money monger planners), keep the people illiterate and trained only for service, mostly food or military. K&R
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Set up for failure. You are right.
NCLB means the tests get harder when success is reached on one level....just keep making it harder to succeed.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
93. Hey it just hit me...duh
Duncan is hoist in his own petard here...I'm so slow, must have had a poor education...
(gives a kick here to boot!)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #31
46. exactly.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
33. One of the articles of blind faith
is that facts and reality don't sway you. You keep putting up the truth. People keep believing the lies. They keep spouting republican lies, neocon propaganda, and msm mind wash.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Wasn't there a report recently that said facts did not matter to many?
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 01:40 PM by madfloridian
I thought I read it here.

You are right. We are to the point that nothing we say matters on either side. Facts are nuisances, and those who post them are considered likewise.

I see the recs are now going downward faster than I can count.

It doesn't change the fact that the school leaders in Chicago tried to hide the truth.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #36
48. They unrec without posting because
they have no defense. We have the political equivalent of American Idol, a game of celebrity where people form their opinions based on their celebrity politician and base their sense of self worth on being on the "right" side and being one of the special ones. The republican did it. Now the Democrats are too.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Aw, c'mon. Quit screwing up their spin with your facts.
Honestly! :sarcasm:

P.S. No Arne-bashing post would be complete without a gentle reminder that he slashed CPS' special ed budget by SIXTY PERCENT!!! (okay, not that gentle :P )
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
47. This is a betrayal of public education/chldren/citizens by obama/Arne . ...!!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
50. Hmmm let's see now. Chicago ed leaders hide data....
and when I post about it look what it gets...minimum 12 unrecs.

General Discussion
Data explodes "Chicago turnaround miracle myth" that Arne took to DC and the nation.
54 recs : By madfloridian

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Arne wanted teachers in Los Angeles to have their names printed to humiliate them, and his successor in Chicago refused to have uncomfortable data published. And it would be preferred we not discuss it?


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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Why don't you just give it up already?!
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 05:26 PM by Hissyspit
The businessification of education at the expense of underpaid workers MUST occur! http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-09-08/giving-gra...

:sarcasm:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. lol And Rhee and Gates together on Oprah. Can't fight it.
Nail on head.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/debonis/2010/09/michel...

Might as well laugh as cry because the power of the press and the WH are behind the "reformers"

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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. The power of the Press and the White House should be behind reform.
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 05:28 PM by Hissyspit
It would just help if it was reform that was actually going to work, unmotivated by simplistic scapegoating and uncorrupted by greed.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
57. It's good to have concrete evidence that the current privatization and union-busting "reforms"
don't work.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. And I'm glad the Trib printed it against the wishes of the school head.
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jtuck004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
65. I suspect poverty and parental educational level is behind a lot of
the "underachievement" (not sure I like that characterization, but...) in schools

So perhaps one should create a "grade system" for the community and it's businesses, based on how much they are putting into educating parents, or helping them make a living, etc. The failing grades the community and business gets for their selfish attitudes could be added back in to offset teacher's so-called performance ratings...'cause this is a group effort, not just an individual one.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #65
71. Parents have at least as much responsibility as teachers.
Getting their kids to school. Making sure homework is done before the TV is turned on. Making sure they have an adequate place and materials to complete homework. Meeting with teachers.

Of course teachers have no control over what happens at home. But Obama's proposal is not about rating teachers based on a "snapshot" which is compared to a national average. It's about rating a student's improvement (bringing a failing student up to D level would result in a positive assessment).
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
97. hmm...
Little Johnnie (16 years old) sleeps through the first two class periods in school because he has to work as a busboy to help support his four siblings and he seldom gets home before 2 am and he still has to get homework done and be up at the crack of dawn to help Mom get his four siblings ready for school (phew!). His test scores are seldom above 65. Should a teacher be rated on his academic "improvement"?

Little Suzy got caught texting in class again. She wears peek-a-boo blouses that won't even button across her ample cleavage, and has been in ISS most of the school year for flaunting the school's dress code. She refuses to turn in any homework, because school merely provides her a social arena. Again, should her teachers be rated on her "academic improvement"?

Little Joe is in the principal's office for the third time this week because he got caught again fighting behind the school cafeteria. Joe's teacher called his mother right after the first incident, and (before slamming down the receiver) Mom said, "Why are you calling me?! When he's at school, he's YOUR problem!" Should Joe's teacher be rated on Joe's "academic improvement"?

Our nation is experiencing a crumbling infrastructure, a disintegrating economy, divisive and derisive socio-political infighting, and a bleak, uncertain future. All of these macro-level issues have a measurable impact on our youth, yet we are certain that it's 'bad teachers' who stand in the way of our children's academic success.

What a load of crap.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #97
107. In all cases, yes - teachers should be rated on academic improvement.
If a teacher, who works in an impoverished area, has a class which shows improvement on average compared to another teacher in similar circumstances, we can assume one of two things:

1) that teacher is doing a good job of the work they are being paid to do
2) in a remarkable feat of coordination, the parents of every student in his/her class improved their parenting skills simultaneously

Conversely, we can assume there is room for improvement in the other teacher's class.

Like most other responses here, you attempt to portray assigning blame to *any* teachers as the strawman position "we are certain that it's 'bad teachers' who stand in the way of our children's academic success".

Fact: some teachers stand in the way of some students' academic success. When they attempt to defend bad teachers, good teachers appear guilty by association - to their own detriment and to the benefit of the charter school movement.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #107
115. Thanks
so much for proving that you find it completely impossible to get outside of your 'bad teacher' box.

First of all, let's knock down YOUR strawman position that 'some teachers stand in the way of some students' academic success...when they attempt to defend bad teachers.' I and many of my fellow teachers are well aware that bad teachers are a detriment to our children, and to our system of public education. However, those of us who are sincere advocates for our children; those of us who are invested in effective, progressive improvement of our system of public education within the larger landscape of our embarrassingly hedonistic and narcissistic nation recognize that bad administrators are a detriment to our system of public education. And, that inadequate funding is a detriment. And, that poorly written texts with glaringly obvious political agendas are a detriment. And, that archaic school buildings with broken plumbing are detriments. And, that an adult population with a 40% illiteracy rate is a detriment.

Defining my posts, or madfloridian's laudable efforts, as attempts to 'defend bad teachers' obfuscates our activism in defense of public education. I derogate the position that 'bad teachers' are the problem du jour threatening our system of public education NOT to suggest that there are no bad teachers, wtmusic, but to assert that the 'bad teachers' problem fits a specific political agenda, and fails to address fundamental macro-level problems threatening public education AND our nation as a whole.

Thus the key shortcoming in YOUR argument is revealed in your rebuttal to my post: your perception of this problem is limited and simplistic (and possibly driven by a specific political agenda). Your perception of my post is limited and simplistic (and probably driven by your political perceptions). If you want to understand the core of my advocacy for our youth, read Thou Shalt Not be Aware and For Your Own Good (both by Alice Miller), and consider "Magical Child" by Joseph Chilton Pearce. Better yet, assemble a representative sample of our youth, and ask them what THEY think about our contemporary system of public education (oh, and, please practice active listening skills before you undertake this daunting and important data-gathering task).

Just FYI, I despair over our rather ubiquitous tendency to play the 'blame and shame' game as we struggle to evolve (both as individuals AND as a species). A key aspect of my own personal stance on 'fixing' public education is my awareness that blaming and shaming is a huge waste of time and energy. I am a fix-it kinda gal, and I remain personally committed to focusing my energy on identifying solutions and encouraging the multitude of disparate individuals invested in improving public education to partner with our children, and work together to effect positive outcomes.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. "The 'bad teachers' problem fits a specific political agenda". Wow.
Are you insinuating that only Republicans want to address the problem of bad teachers? Can you show me where I said bad teachers are the "problem du jour", or how my perception is "limited and simplistic", given I've never denied there are a host of other problems in public education?

You can't, because I've never said or even implied those things.

Let's try to stay on topic, even though deflection seems to be a very popular evasive tactic around here. Maybe 11 teachers fired annually out of 30,000 is acceptable to you; it's not to me. It shows that once teachers, good or bad, are "in" - they are no longer accountable. It's a portrait of a system rife with intimidation, where the employees dictate to the employer, of unions which are only interested in maintaining teachers' benefits, their salary, and brick-wall system of tenure to the detriment of everyone they are working for - students, parents, and taxpayers.

It's interesting to me that pleas to stop blaming are usually heard loudest from those who deserve it (i.e. the Republican Party, after no WMDs were found in Iraq). Personally I think getting to the source of problems (assigning blame, if you will) is a very positive, fix-it kind of step.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. No
Eleven teachers fired annually out of 30,000?!? When you throw out such a ridiculous statistic, it would help your credibility to cite your source(s).

Identifying problems is NOT the equivalent of 'assigning blame' and standing on your 'bad teacher' box will do little to improve public education.

And, suggesting that I'm one of the proverbial 'bad teachers' you and others think epitomize all that's wrong with public education makes you sound like a petulant little boy, stomping your widdle foot, as you huff, "I know you are, but what am I?!?"
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. Yes, ridiculous - and it's actually worse than that.
"In 2003, one Los Angeles union representative said: If Im representing them, its impossible to get them out. Its impossible. Unless they commit a lewd act. Between 1995 and 2005, only 112 Los Angeles tenured teachers faced termination -- eleven per year -- out of 43,000. And thats in a school district whose 2003 graduation rate was just 51 percent.

One New Jersey union representative was even more blunt about the work his organization does to keep bad teachers in the classroom, saying: Ive gone in and defended teachers who shouldnt even be pumping gas.

In ten years, only about 47 out of 100,000 teachers were actually terminated from New Jerseys schools. Original research conducted by the Center for Union Facts (CUF) confirms that almost no one ever gets fired from New Jerseys largest school district, no matter how bad. Over four recent years, CUF discovered, Newarks school district successfully fired about one out of every 3,000 tenured teachers annually. Graduation statistics indicate that the district needs much stronger medicine: Between the 2001-2002 and the 2004-2005 school years, Newarks graduation rate (not counting the diplomas earned through New Jerseys laughable remedial exam) was a mere 30.6 percent.

Reporter Scott Reeder of the Small Newspaper Group discovered in 2005 that ut of 95,500 tenured teachers in Illinois an average of only two are fired each year for poor performance. In Chicago itself, hundreds of principals surveyed by The New Teacher Project in 2007 said that 83 percent of poor-performing tenured teachers are rarely or never terminated."

http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #120
124. OIC...
Edited on Sun Sep-12-10 07:17 PM by chervilant
Richard Berman and his Center for Union Facts... No agenda there. You've done little more than confirm that your statistics are questionable.

Scores of good educators recognize that our system of public education MUST undergo fundamental changes in order to remain rigorous and effective in these exponential times. Furthermore, we know a red herring when we see one, and your 'bad teacher' red herring stinks no matter how you slice it.

If there WERE a plethora of 'bad teachers' out there, wtmusic, one might wonder about the plethora of school administrators who've failed to use the protocols available to them to purge their schools of all those poor performers. Sounds like the whole system should be dismantled.

Oh, right, that's been the plan all along.







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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. You must be masochistic.
Even worse statistics for New York, from the very questionable, dubious, backroom org known as Associated Press:

"Because tenure laws are different in every state, comparisons on the time and expense involved in disciplining or firing teachers are difficult. In New York state, the process can take six to 18 months and can run into hundreds of thousands of dollars, including the teachers' pay and fees for lawyers, stenographers and arbitrators.

In New York City, the cost to fire one incompetent tenured teacher is about $250,000, said Education Department spokeswoman Melody Meyer. She said that of 55,000 teachers on staff, 10 were fired last year.

"The chancellor would prefer that teachers be taken off the payroll while going through arbitration," Meyer said. "If the decision is in favor of the teacher, that money would be paid back with interest."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25430476

Let me know if you want to keep going. :D
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #124
135. I can't believe a Democrat using Center for Union Facts
on this website. I've even written the admins about it, but got no response. It's about as right wing as you can get without falling off the edge.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. You got no response because they are indeed facts.
When you have something to refute them with, you'll have a leg to stand on.

I suppose AP is also forbidden when their figures threaten your pension. :eyes:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-14-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #137
142. lol. keep catapulting the propaganda there, big boy.
Edited on Tue Sep-14-10 02:52 PM by Hannah Bell
The Center for Union Facts is a secretive front group for individuals and industries opposed to union activities. It is part of lobbyist Rick Berman's family of front groups including the Employment Policies Institute. The domain name www.unionfacts.com was registered to Berman & Co. in May 2005.

Video ads by the Center for Union Facts portay union organizers as thugs who invade workers' homes to intimidate them into joining." In May 2006 the Center for Union Facts, launched its first TV ad campaign. The 30-second spot, running on Fox News and local markets, has "actors posing as workers" saying "sarcastically what they 'love' about unions," like paying dues, union leaders' "fat-cat lifestyles," and discrimination against minorities. The ad campaign cost $3 million, which was raised "from companies, foundations and individuals that Mr. Berman won't identify."

The group planned to film another TV ad in June 2006. Labor and economics professor Harley Shaiken said the effort "to create an anti-union atmosphere" more generally, as opposed to business-funded ads against a particular union organizing drive or strike, "is a new wrinkle." An AFL-CIO spokesperson called the ad's accusations "unfounded and outrageous."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_U...

Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who currently works as a lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. He is the sole owner of Berman & Co., which sponsors many non-profit front groups that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.

According to a July 31, 2006, profile of Berman in USA Today, his company has 28 employees and takes in $10 million dollars a year, but "only Berman and his bookkeeper wife" know how much of the $10 million ends up in their own pockets. <2>

Rick Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming non-profit front groups that advocate for the interests big business while shielding those same businesses from disclosing financial support for these efforts.<3><4>

United Press International noted that "the group's spokesman refused to release the names of its donors or say where its funding came from." The paper reported that while Wal-Mart Stores denied funding the group it stated that "it has a relationship in which it exchanges union information with Berman, the group's head."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rick_Berman
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #135
139. Sad
isn't it?

Actually, after that little disclosure, I put wtmusic on ignore. I see he/she has posted other responses to me, but I can't see the content-- which is just as well, considering his/her indefensible position.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. I put them on ignore myself a few months ago.
If I want to read right-wing garbage, I know where to find it. Thank you for your persistent and excellent rebuttals. There is only so much you can do for a person who runs to the Republicans for "facts" though.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. Ditto
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #97
134. income level & poverty are the closest correlates of school performance/performance on
standardized tests.

the us has the highest level of poverty & child poverty in the developed world.

the haters think this is immaterial.

already a couple of pieces from teachers who were "excellent" teachers in rich suburban districts & "poor" teachers in poor urban ones.

why would any teacher work in a poor district when it puts a target on their back?
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. Everyone I know in Chicago thinks the public schools are terrible. They send their kids to
Edited on Sat Sep-11-10 08:21 PM by BrklynLiberal
private schools to get a decent education...at much cost and sacrifice on their parts.

It is truly a disgrace what is happening to our public schools, and men like Arne Duncan should be brought to task
for the havoc they are wreaking.
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
80. Did you catch this DN video with the Chicago Teacher's union president?
wonderful woman, the other guest is good too...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/9/3/educators_push_bac...
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Reader Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-11-10 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
82. Great stuff, as usual, madfloridian!
A big K&R from this fed-up teacher!
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #82
91. Echo!
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bonnieS Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
95. Is there any way to tell if this is better or
worse than before this system was implemented? Or was changing to the letter grades a way of avoiding comparison?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. I don't have scores for Chicago in past years. But "reforms" are not working.
You can look at the chart in the OP, think of the fact that "reforms" have gone on for almost a decade...maybe much longer in Chicago.

The reforms are obviously not working in Chicago. They tried to hide the data most likely because Arne is taking it national. Reforms that don't work going national.

That and hiding data from the public while calling for openness in other states....pathetic.
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bonnieS Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #105
116. Thanks!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
96. The blogger gives a way to look up the scores of AUSL schools
Here is more about those schools:

http://www.ausl-chicago.org/schools.html

They are a company that helps "turnaround" schools. In Arne's mind turnaround means fire the teachers, or fire half of them, fire the principal, or turn it into a charter. Note the teacher training academy.

From the blogger, how to find the AUSL schools since they are not listed as such in the Tribune.

Yes, there are some AUSL schools on the list and the scores are nothing to write home about:

Chicago Academy Elementary School--C+
Chicago Academy High School--C-
Dodge --B- (up from a C)
Collins Academy--no score
Tarkington--C (no improvement from last year)
National Teachers Academy--C-(up from a D+)
Sherman Elementary--D+ (up from F)
Orr High School--no score
And so it goes.

You can look up the rest yourself. Go to

http://www.ausl-chicago.org/schools.html

for a list of their schools.

The type the name in here to find their grade:
http://media.apps.chicagotribune.com/tables/cps-scores....


They don't look that successful to me.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
99. K&R! //nt
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
110. I live in Chicago and never bought what Daley was selling regarding school improvement!
Chicago is a beautiful sports car with a blown engine and slipping transmission! It looks great, but the schools, public transit system, law enforcement, etc. are broken! And, with the highest sales tax in the nation (9.75% tied with L.A.), property taxes as much as a $1,000 per year more for the same size home than neighboring suburbs, and fines and user fees for damn near everything in this town, we are broke and Daley has nowhere to go to fix anything.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. My sister lives in Rogers Park
and her daughter attends a beautiful charter school with great teachers and a solid curriculum.

Her son attended a charter which was ill-managed and ended up being a nightmare...he now attends a private school.

No one should have to "apply" to a public school.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-13-10 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #113
128. EVERYONE whom Daley appoints to head programs, be they CPS, CTA, CPD, etc. exist to buffer
Daley from blame and make him look effective. Chicago is one big Potemkin village, all show with no go!
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-12-10 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
112. kick, but it's too late to rec!
eom
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