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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:14 AM
Original message
Should sex work be legal?
This is not about exploitation or slavery, or children. NONE of that ought to be legal, or tolerated in any way, shape, or form. I'm talking about adult sex workers selling services to other adults.

Consider it in the abstract. Should it be allowed or not? To be sure, we can debate *how* to implement it. But first things first.

Should sex work be legal?
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes. n/t
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. if it's work, it should be illegal. sex is supposed to be a pleasure.
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 07:17 AM by Hannah Bell
i resist all commodification of life.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. No snark/honest question:
What might be another example of a commodification of life?
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
42. Selling or auctioning off your kidney.
Or blood or sperm, too, I suppose.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
68. all forms of cooking food qualifies...
as does the buying and selling of pets, garden plants, and extracts for medicines.

therefore i really think it isn't the best phrasing of what may be intended. otherwise it isn't a very strong argument...
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
53. Then you wouldn't want to be a sex worker. But that's not the question.
Who decides? That's the question.
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
56. The same could be said of reading.
What say you decide only for yourself what sex is supposed to be?
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
91. lol. i didn't realize that stating my opinion = "deciding for others".
what say you quit telling me what to do.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
113. Actually, you're making a great point ... life is about pleasure ...
and patriarchy has made it about pain!!

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:17 AM
Original message
This Is A Tough One
I think the Israelis and the Canadians have it about right. In Israel and Canada prostitution is legal but pimping which is the living off the earnings of a prostitute by a third party is illegal.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. That gets into the implementation
I agree, by the way, that pimping ought to remain a crime.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
41. I feel the same way about health insurance companies. n/t
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gophates Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sure, if men get to be treated as subhuman sex toys for a few centuries.
Ideally, yes, it should. But it's just going legitimize the commotization of women.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Absolutley
Flame away...
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
6. Yes, as long as there is no exploitation, etc. It goes on anyway, legal or not, so
IMO if properly done it could be legal. Throwing people in jail / punishment is ridiculous IMO. The US needs to lighten up a little.

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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why not? I worked as a prostitute for more than 30 years....
...pretending to like something I didn't and kissing lots of ass to make sure I could feed my family. Why should I deny another that same right?
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Reminds me of my favorite saying about my line of work
"Programming is like sex.
First you do it for fun,
Then you do it for your friends.
Then you do it for money."
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Good one to drop on my techie friends. Thanks.
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
55. Yep!!! LOL n/t
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
57. One of my friends in hi-tech said about where we were working then, "you know, we're like a bunch of
hookers sitting here... we say do what, how long, how much and when... and we all also bark and fetch on command."
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
9. Anything between consenting adults should be legal.
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anarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. in a perfect world, where it wasn't generally a result of desperation
soldiering shouldn't be illegal either, if there are legitimate, righteous causes that require it. I see the two professions as somewhat analagous.

In a world where so many of us are, in some sense, slaves to those who profit from our misery, both professions offend my sensibilities.

But in the abstract, I'd say: yes.

Pimping on the other hand, I have no problem with that being illegal, or very well regulated at least...that just seems like straight up exploitation for the most part.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
11. Yes. Making it illegal just causes problems, exactly like drug use.
You'll never get people to quit doing either, so making it illegal is counter-productive in the extreme.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. If one wants to get rid of the abuses in the sex trade - then yes. Nt
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. Absolutely
I have known guys, good looking and nice guys too(movie star looks), who just didn't have what it takes to close the deal with a woman while dating.

What are they supposed to do?

Take a woman out and spend several hundred dollars for wining and dining in the hope of getting "lucky". and that is completely legal.

But cut out the middlemen like theaters and restaurants and just give the lady some money to pay her rent or whatever and that is illegal? That doesn't make sense to me.

Legalize it!

Don
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yes...nt
Sid
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
16. If making it illegal made it less common I'd say "No"
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 08:15 AM by Recursion
Since prohibition doesn't seem to do anything except make prostitutes and johns more miserable, I think it should be legal and regulated.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. Yes, but there are too many interests that will fight it to be legitimized.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. Sounds like an insurance company I used to work for. nt
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
47. 'cause that is not happening now?
along with dangerous work environments, slavery, child abuse, incarceration, corruption, etc?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. How is your scenario different from what happens now?
Legalization would provide some level of protection from "being abused, threatened, beat up," etc. that isn't there now.

There's no evidence to indicate the stigmas and known risks of multiple sex partners would suddenly be overcome, leading to a craze to become sex workers. If 18-year-olds were considered too naive for informed consent, raise the age -- but these are questions of implementation.

The basic question is more simple: Who decides?
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johnroshan Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #52
69. History points in another direction.
"Legalization would provide some level of protection from "being abused, threatened, beat up," etc. that isn't there now."

Actually, this was the party line that partially legalized sex work in Calcutta, India. Apart from a few namesake improvements in living conditions, absolutely nothing has changed. Some reports listed by Nicholas Kristof in his book "Half the sky" suggests that the legalization has only given protection for the people running these brothels and those who profit massively by it. Trafficking, slavery and underage exploitation are rampant and since the legalization of the trade, those operating the brothels have less to fear. They hide the children when authorities come to check.

As for the US, things might turn out to be a little better. However I believe that the basic human instinct for greed will always push people to go for maximum return investments like slavery and underage girls. Legitimizing even a part of the trade is giving them a break to stop worrying about the newly legalized parts and go for the really profitable ones.

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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
58. Do you also want to make politics, banking and preachin' illegal? (nt)
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
63. If sex work was legal and regulated, this wouldn't happen
Okay, workers are ALWAYS exploited,m but this wouldn't happen any more than it would in other industries.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
72. Sounds like any work these days
(except for maybe the beat up part,) but especially the thrown away part.

You say you would exclude children, etc. but they will still be seeing "workers" driving new cars, spending money, and will EASILY BE enlisted for this service as soon as they reach 18. Then they will be caught up in the world of work and abused by many, threatened, and thrown away when they are are unable to perform to their clients and bosses satisfaction.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. For anyone interested, here's a rundown of the NZ laws (it's legal here):
http://www.nzpc.org.nz/page.php?page_name=Law

As far I can make out, the sex workers are now safer, healthier, pay more taxes and have the law to back them up rather than fight them; and fears that the streets would fill with hookers overnight did not come true.

Incidentally, the NZPC operates a little like a union, but is funded by the government via the Ministry of Health: You might need to sort out universal healthcare if you wanted to do something similar. ;)
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
89. Are you in NZ earthquake territory?
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 06:04 PM by rocktivity
:scared:
rocktivity
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. It's ALL earthquake territory
No dramas here this week, though.

Yet.

:)
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
20. It already is, sort of - just say you are making a porn :) (nt)
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. Would you want this to become the default minimum wage job
available to teen girls (and many boys) right out of high school because there are often other jobs available?

If the sex trade became legal, in tough times like this, the sex trade would become THE industry that a hell of a lot of young women would be pressured to turn to for quick necessary cash.

In every club there would be sales people approaching pretty girls after they have had a few drinks (especially if they look underage) asking they if they have a job or need money.

"Hey, it's legal now. It's legitimate! We pay top competitive wages. Honest! If your bills are high this month, I'm here for you."

Prostitution would Explode with legalization the same way porn did because of the internet.

I can already anticipate some of the sales pitches used to make prostitution seem like a good idea.

"Hey, you'll get to meet guys with money. If you really impress one he might be interested in really getting to know you. You've seen the movie "Pretty Woman" haven't you? Or would you rather just hang around with broke loser guys?"

"It's just sex. You like sex, don't you? So what's wrong with getting paid for doing what you're going to do anyway?"
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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. It's legal in holland, and this is not the case
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 08:51 AM by comtec
now, putting aside everyone's doomsday scenarios...

Lets look at the future women had only 20 odd years ago (and many see as their "value" now a days even)

It has always been seen as a woman's "duty" to marry a rich man.
how is that different from prostituting?
teaching your daughter that her only value is to be a baby factory / maid for a rich man? really?

should prostitution even be on the list of suggested jobs? no of course not.

but for the women or man who see no other job opportunities they should not be consigned to dark alleyways, and danger beyond the work itself.

Prostitution always has been, and always will be.
we dress it up in pretty names like escorts, or marriage, or some other word for underling (i know, shock, some people are hired just for the sex they provide their boss), but it is no less prostitution than the garden variety.

I say legalize it, tax it up the ass, crack down on pimps with the wrath of god, and make medical and psychological counseling available for anyone wanting to become a prostitute, is a prostitute, or has been a prostitute.

Finally, i'm insulted that people think that only women can be prostitutes!
The number of men who are whoring themselves out there is staggering, many of them gay! And then there are the male escorts/prostitutes out there!

On edit:
my ex has commented many a time, the pity that there are no sex shops here that cater to straight women.
I tend to agree with her, it's a rather sexist thing how much worse it is for a woman *gasp* to want such a thing, where it's almost expected of men.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. In holland, the majority of prostitutes are foreigners.
Prostitution has never gained legitimacy among locals. It is almost entirely a tourist industry, and it is a very low-class profession reserved for people who can't get any other job. 70% foreign woman with no immigration papers, so they cannot work any other job.

Yeah, I'm sure you are So Offended that we not also want lots of Gay Men to be prostitutes too. :eyes:

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. So not the default job for school leavers, then
I think you just destroyed your own argument.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. The economy there hasn't destroyed the job market
leaving no other jobs for young people.

Right now we are looking at an economy in THIS COUNTRY where the vast majority of young people cannot find jobs.

The unemployment rate for kids aged 18-24 is averaging over 50%.
It is as high as 100% for some minority communities in some places.

That makes a hell of a different picture.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Do you have the equivalent Dutch stats? nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
54. Really?
"we dress it up in pretty names like escorts, or marriage, or some other word for underling"

You think marriage is the same as prostitution?
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Didn't happen in NZ
I think the available market for prostitution tends to keep the thing in equilibrium regardless of legality. There's only a certain number of potential clients, and a certain number of times they feel the need to, err, engage professional services.

Legalising prostitution does not spontaneously turn everybody into a cash-laden shagging machine.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. I wonder if people though the same thing about porn.
But if prostitution became legal, cheap, and easily available, that might easily change.
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. As I said, it didn't in NZ
It was legalised 7 years ago. Cheap is rather subjective, but's certainly easily available (Come to think of it, it's easier to get hold of a prostitute than have a pizza delivered where I am :o)

But the numbers haven't changed...
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potassiumnitrate Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. There's nothing wrong with porn
And there's nothing wrong with prostitution.

Adults consenting are adults consenting.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
49. Two words: Consenting Adults.
The question was "in the abstract." We could get into all kinds of discussions about what the laws might involve, but very fundamentally, the question is "who decides?"

You're talking about naive 18-year olds (who by the way are often propositioned as it is). That objection can be overcome if 18-year-olds are deemed not legally capable of consent in this circumstance -- by, for example, raising the legal age to 25.

I'm not saying that's the best thing to do, either. My point is that issues of implementation can be set aside to answer the question.
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Gidney N Cloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
61. Porn didn't explode because of the Internet. The Internet exploded because of porn .
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
78. What is the basis for your predictions?
That -

A: Sex would be sold for $7.25 per hour

B: Prostitution would explode

Prostitution is legal in Nevada and I don't see the problems you're referring to. And even if it did, who are you to force your will on what adults do with their own body?

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. IMO, that would be the only effective way to regulate it
Alcohol is better regulated than other recreational drugs just because it is legal.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. Yes because it will reduce harm, but not nearly as much as many people hope for

Legalizing prostitution can happen in many different ways and all of them have some advantages to the current manner of criminalization, but it is niave to think that legalizing it will stop many of the problems associated with it.

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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
25. After a lot of research
I have concluded that certain practices be legal. Manual manipulation by a license, trained and regulated provider. Provider shall keep his or her privates covered during all contact. A five dollar per session tax, used to regulate and police licensed providers.
This would provide a safe disease free service with no penetration. It could be an added service to legit massage providers.

Legalize the happy ending.
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philly_bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
29. Yes, but regulate it for age, coercion, health, & benefits. (nt)
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potassiumnitrate Donating Member (102 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
34. Yes.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
38. Oh, hell yes
Keeping it illegal endangers the mostly women who do it and for absolutely no benefit, driving it underground where public health can't be monitored and protected.

Face it, the nanny state that seeks to create a heaven on earth by making sin illegal has only created a total and complete hell for a lot of people. Plus, making sin illegal makes it more popular.

There are a lot of really valid reasons to go to a sex worker besides merely being horny. Legal sex workers would make sure everybody goes home healthy, no matter why they were hired.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
39. Why does there even need to be a sex trade?
Why can't more people just control their urges?
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. I'm sure that's been tried.
Never worked.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
90. or put out for free?
:evilgrin:
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
123. "Because we are just like animals."
:sarcasm:
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
40. I believe it should legalized and regulated - along with drugs.
However, we are still far too Puritanical as a nation for this to happen any time soon.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
43. Why should one support the idea that human relations can properly become commodities?
When psychologically healthy, human sexuality seems to occur involve friendship and affection

What benefit does one really expect from substituting a market transaction for affection?

It is true, of course, that human sexuality is variable and plastic, and that it can manifest in nonstandard fashion -- so that some people develop unusual responses, and (say) become attracted to children, or need to bite the heads off chickens in order to feel satisfied: the best response to some fetishistic disorders might not always be clear, but I can see no reason to think that the underlying problems would be resolved by commercialization
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. That's a valid opinion -- but should one person's opinion impact everyone?
In other words, "Who decides?"
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
73. I guess you can attribute anti-prostitution laws to my one-person opinion, but I suspect the laws
have actually been around much longer than I have

And I personally don't remember ever lobbying any elected official on this issue or voting on any related referenda or even writing an LTTE on the topic -- though I have often engaged in such activities for (say) various environmental issues

Of course, there is that whole libertarian theory that everything can best be handled as a commodity in the market, and that human bodies are no different: why shouldn't we construct an underclass of impoverished folk who survive by selling their sexual services, or their kidneys or their children or their whatevers, to more successful and wealthier people? I'm just not convinced that route really leads to greater human freedom
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
44. Yes. nt
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
45. yes: legal and regulated.
reduce disease risk, reduce employee abuse, reduce the harm.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
46. Of course it should be..
I have yet to hear a rational argument against it..
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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
48. Yes. Regulated and that regulation strictly enforced but yes.
As you mention, there are a multitude of caveats and concerns around implementation but since I don't think we're ever going to get rid of it, it's in everyone's best interest to legalize it.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
64. Exactly -- I made the same argument up thread
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
59. I dislike the idea of desperate women (and some men)
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 11:42 AM by Lyric
going to jail just because they were trying to make their rent money any way that they could. At the very least, there should be no legal consequences for prostitutes themselves.

I still haven't decided whether or not I think we should fully legalize it as a service. I can see both sides of the argument--it does contribute to the idea that our bodies are merely objects to be used for someone else's sexual gratification. However, I don't see much of a substantial difference between someone being paid to provide sexual physical manipulation and someone being paid to provide any other type of physical labor. In the end, regardless of what our jobs are, we are ALL selling our bodies, brains, and skills. So long as we live in a capitalist society, what's the intrinsic difference between selling yourself to indulge someone else's greed for sex and selling yourself to indulge someone else's greed for money? We all do THAT and we don't consider it immoral or degrading--at least not enough that we want it to be illegal to labor for an outside party's benefit--a.k.a., having a job.

Sure, it's exploitation--but is it more exploitive than what the corporate greedmasters do to the working class of the planet? Enough so to support the idea of non-sex-labor-for-money as a legitimate means of survival, but sex-labor-for-money as "wrong"? Remove the moralistic "Ewwww, it's SEX!" part from the equation, and I really don't think it is. It's just another way for the Haves to exploit the Have Nots. I am not sure it's fair to say, "Yes, it should be legal for poor factory workers to be exploited as a class, but NOT legal for poor prostitutes...because WE don't approve of THAT sort of work." Note that I am differentiating between mere disapproval, and disapproval on a severe enough level to want something made ILLEGAL. I doubt that ANY of us "approve" of the capitalist exploitation system, but there are damned few of us who think it should be made illegal right at this very minute.

Ideally, I'd like to see ALL exploitation become a relic of the past, but until it does, it doesn't seem fair to pick on prostitutes. In the end, just like us, they're trying to survive in this dog-eat-dog capitalist world. Perhaps empowering prostitutes with legalization (while drastically INCREASING the penalties for "pimping", which is basically just slavery) can at least lead to a reduced level of disease, abuse, and direct exploitation. As for those who argue that "No little girl grows up WANTING to be a whore", my response is that your statement relies heavily upon paternalistic and sexist definitions of "whore" in order to shock, offend, and persuade us. If we remove the paternalistic taboos about sex, if we no longer consider the idea of a woman fully in control of her own sexuality as abhorrent, if we create a set of protections that severely limit the risks of disease and abuse to levels that are about the same as they are in the general population, then why would the idea of our daughters (and sons!) selling sex be so terrible? After all, it's only an awful idea because when we think of the word "prostitute", we think of a woman whose sexuality does not conform to our social norm--we think she's dirty, diseased, sad, desperate, gullible, immoral, possessing no self-respect--but what if being a prostitute DIDN'T mean any of those things? Norms CAN be changed. Whether or not they WILL be is another discussion entirely.

Still haven't made up my mind completely, but I think these are things worth truly THINKING about. All too often this subject just becomes yet another opportunity for people to consider it from a viewpoint that's a mile wide and an inch deep.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. "another opportunity for people to consider it from a viewpoint that's a mile wide and an inch deep"
That's why I was hoping to separate the fundamental question of whether it *should* be legal from the other issues that come up *if* its legal.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
60. Yes. But first, we must dismantle the patriarchy via revolution (nm)
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Gidney N Cloyd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
62. I don't think there's any good argument against legalizing it, only against legalizing it ineptly.
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The Green Manalishi Donating Member (426 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
65. Of course.
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 11:59 AM by The Green Manalishi
Treating sex work just like any other service involving a professional, be they plumber of psychotherapist would go a long way to getting pimps and slavers out of the process. Why should a sex worker be inherently more vulnerable to exploitation than a nurse, schoolteacher or seamstress? It is entirely because the activity is illegal(and concomitantly unregulated/unlicensed); as with drugs, pushing it into the shadows is what allows the Bad People to ruin what should be a normal economic transaction that should actually be enhancing the economic circumstances of the providers and the enjoyment of the recipients.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
66. yes, for the safety of the workers primarily, and regulation of the market.
this market is IMPOSSIBLE to stamp out, just like drugs and other human biological imperatives.

legalization protects sex workers by:
- allowing them repercussion-free access to police protection
- potential to unionize
- legal documentation to establish work history, legal protection, contracts, employee and human rights protections, etc.
- standardization of practice and regulation in order to protect the workers and the customers from STDs, and from being spreading vectors as well
- de-stigmatization of the profession in order to remove it from the clutches of the black market and systemic abuse

i believe wholly that sex work and drugs should be fully legalized and regulated for the health and safety of all involved.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
67. yes. nt
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
70. Yes. Nt
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
71. I think it should be. Expecially when it comes to married men wanting
Edited on Sun Sep-05-10 12:37 PM by notadmblnd
extra outside of marriage. Why should the wife be the only one to benefit financially from having sex with him?

on edit: same goes for the woman when the role is reversed.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. That brings up something interesting
A husband whose wife vetoes his fondest sexual fantasies might seek to fulfill those fantasies outside his marriage. Would his marriage be more stable if he went hunting for a mistress or if he hired a professional to act out those fantasies with him?

Personally, I think the latter would be a hell of a lot easier to take, especially since hookers try to protect themselves and their client and mistresses don't.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
75. I'm very torn on the issue.
On one hand I understand the problems with human trafficking, on the other hand it's just like drugs, making it illegal just drives it underground.
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
76. Absolutely!
Consensual sex is legal and paying someone for services is legal. The government needs to stay out of everyone's sex lives and stop trying to be the moral police.

Everything bad about the sex industry stems from it being illegal.
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DrSteveB Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
77. Yes, with safeguards
So that children are kept safe.
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Rochester Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
80. No, it should not be legal
on anti-capitalist grounds.
If a woman wants to have sex with lots of people, that's fine, but she should not be rewarded by receiving payment for it, getting an edge over a more prudish woman who would not be so willing. It should be given freely or not at all.
Conversely, it would also establish a market value that men would have to bid and meet and pay in order to get something (sex) that they are entitled to for free. Assuming they didn't have a wife or girl-friend, that is.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Nobody is "entitled" to sex, free or otherwise, from anyone else.
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Rochester Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Sex is an entitlement like food water and healthcare.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. A date rapist would agree with you.
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. I'm pretty sure he was referring to consensual sex.
The freedom to do what you want with your own body is the most basic of human rights.
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TheManInTheMac Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
120. Really?
So Carmen Electra's been denying me what is rightfully mine all these years?
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USArmyParatrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. That's *your* moral view, fine.
But on what grounds do you feel the government should force your moral views upon others?
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
94. That's a very reasonable position to take .....
...... if one is a cave man.

Shame on you. Men are "entitled to sex for free"? Really?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #80
108. Haha, you won't last long here.
Idiocy.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
84. To paraphrase the late, great George Carlin
Fucking is legal, and selling is legal, so why isn't selling fucking legal?

Personally, I think a lot of people are hung up on idealized notions of sex. Sure, it might be ideal if sex were something reserved strictly for people in a committed relationship. But we all know that isn't the case at all. I could go down to any bar or nightclub, hook up with someone at random, take them back to my place and have some quick sex, and it's perfectly legal. Or, conversely, I could meet someone, take them to an expensive restaurant, spend over $100 for a lavish meal, give her a diamond bracelet, then go back to her place for an evening of sexual relations, and that's also legal. But if the two of us decided to cut out the "courtship" and instead I paid her directly, then all of a sudden that's not legal.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #84
112. Just as an aside, you're racing over the differences between an actual relationship....
and paying for sex --

Many males wake up too late in discovering also that a relationship with a piece of

paper in a girlie magazine is much different from a relationship with a real live girl!

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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
87. If everyone involved is a consenting adult, I can't for the life of me see why gov't should care.
'Course, I think the drug war should end, too.
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Synicus Maximus Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
88. Yes
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Recovered Repug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
93. Sex is the one thing that's ok to give away, but
it is illegal to sell.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
95. I think it is disgusting, but should not be illegal
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. Illegal because it is disgusting?
And what is disgusting about sex?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. nothing disgusting about sex
paying to use someone as a semen receptacle - that is disgusting no matter how nobly you try to paint it
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Luciferous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
97. Yes, but I think there should be regulations in place to protect
the workers and the clients.
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
99. Sure.
If a woman can rent out her body to bear a child, she should be able to rent it out for an hour, too.

Nothing makes me laugh harder than someone who properly defends a right to abortion under the claim that a woman should be able to have control over her own body, and yet say prostitution should be illegal. I can't think of a single reason to justify government telling someone she can't have sex for profit.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-05-10 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
100. Fuck, yes. If it's not legal than we can't protect those involved. n/t
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Withywindle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
101. Yes, and it should be regulated and worker protections enforced.
I don't have high hopes for the latter, mind you, in an environment where countless workers in other types of jobs die unnecessarily because of greed and deregulation (think: West Virginia coal miners, Gulf Coast oil-rig workers).

But I really don't believe that sex has some nebulous woo-woo quality that makes it somehow different from all other human activities as far as paid services go; much less one that somehow "inherently" degrades people who do it for money.

Hell, I think listening to someone's problems at great length is something admirable that people who care for each other do, ideally--but that doesn't mean that therapists are somehow "degraded," nor are the people who pay them for their listening/advising services.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
102. Why not? Selling is legal, fucking is legal. So why shouldn't selling fucking be legal?
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
103. Yes, anything that prevents women from having to use the streets
It's only illegal for bullshit puritan reasons. William Pickton was able to kill 50 women (he claims) and it was all cause it was that easy to pick up a prostitute and murder her. It's disgusting that this old attitude still exists.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #103
104. Very few women grows up wanting to be a prostitute.
Only after an equal economic opportunity is available, should any women make money from that.

The truth is most women that do that do not like it, and do it because of lack of economic opportunity or other constraints.


If you can think outside of money, you can see it is money needs that causes much of that.



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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Obligatory 'toon:

:hide:
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. Well, obviously...
But that doesn't mean that we still can't make those who go into it safe by NOT legalizing it. I was a beat reporter in Vancouver, I know prostitution and drugs VERY Well.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #104
109. Heh, money causes a lot of fucked up problems, sadly.
But not appropriate discussion for this thread.
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RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. It is part of the thread topic.
If women become prostitutes because they need money to survive, then weather it is legal by law or not, it is still coercion by circumstances set by a system.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #104
117. Lots of things "get done for money"
Lots of people don't like their jobs. I dare say no child grows up with deep, heartfelt aspirations to wash other people's toilets or change bedpans.

Why do you single out sex work?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 02:40 AM
Response to Original message
105. Yes, but I'm against all forms of work, which means I'm against sex work.
Being an anti-capitalist I find sex work the most debasing of them all.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
111. It shouldn't be criminal -- however, the question of protecting
workers would also have to be considered --

Basically, however, we should be working to lift people out of financial conditions

which move them to the military or prostitution -- male or female!!

That's the problem of where we are now!!

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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 06:10 AM
Response to Original message
114. A final word from 50 cent:


There you go. Discussion over.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
115. Looking at what the Florida Legislature does for money,
Selling sex is almost family entertainment.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
116. A cautionary "yes", but what does this say about our humanity?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. it says that both humanity's sex drive and its need for an income is so high - no amount of
Edited on Mon Sep-06-10 01:55 PM by Douglas Carpenter
criminal legislation or social disapproval can even come close to curtailing it. The relationship between economics and sexuality appears in all aspects of life, including monogamous traditional marriage. It is no accident that the wealthy have always found it far easier to attract the young and beautiful.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
118. Decriminalized
Make it illegal to purchase.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
121. Yes.
I'd prefer to see it taxed and health-monitored, but otherwise, I say greenlight adults to do as they please.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
122. Yes. Legal, taxed, regulated and unionized.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
124. It is in Australia, and you rarely if ever hear about any problems
Several months ago, I went over to the little computer store to pick up a hard drive adapter and thought someone there was cooking up something delicious for lunch.

No, I was told- that's the brothel next door. They always make themselves big meal before starting the day!
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
125. Yes - god knows it will be one of the few high paying jobs around here soon
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LatteLibertine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-06-10 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
126. Yes and regulated
Same thing with weed.
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