Like it or not, we LOST the Iraq War

[ck4829]

This isn't a statement said to hate the troops, America, our people, our ideals, etc. It is actually a statement in respect of them, as well as respect for human rights and even civilization itself.

Every war has objectives, a casus belli. It doesn't matter if it "changes", the original commitment is what matters, it's what separates us from barbarians or wild animals.

We didn't go in to get revenge for Saddam supposedly causing 9/11.
We didn't go in to act as a bulwark against Iran.
We didn't go in to prop up Maliki and his cleric allies.

We invaded Iraq in order to locate their weapons of mass destruction. And until we find them, then we can not truthfully say that we've "won" the war there. And if they weren't there to begin with, then it still represents a failure on every level of leadership and intelligence.

You can be jingoistic and say we "won", but did we? Does saying that we have won really respect those who died or have been permanently disabled? Is saying that we have won really worth our humanity?

[Dappleganger]

1. We lost from the very first death.

THEY lost from the very first soldier setting foot in their country.

[bushisanidiot]

24. +1

.

[zipplewrath]

2. Our Iraq war accomplishments

We removed a serious dictator.
We presided over a large scale ethnic expulsion and near genocide.
We created an Iran friendly, and mildly Saudi Arabia hostile, government.
We created another government that isn't going to like Israel.
We created something called "Al Quada in Iraq".
We killed roughly 100,000 Iraqis, many of them innocent.


Where's the parade?

[Count Olaf]

26. we are responsible for the deaths of over 1 million Iraqis

and that number was from 5 years ago.

[Catherina]

3. Huh? Recommended and still 0? Who here thinks we won? n/t

[w8liftinglady]

7. the latest invasion of trolls.....who didn't serve,btw

[Ignis]

28. Why should they? That's what poor people are for.

But they're more than happy to keep pulling the lever for pro-war politicians, of course!

[Lex]

4. It's simply not a "win" or "lose" thing.

Despite the fact that people feel compelled to frame it that way.

[Swamp Rat]

35. and if you do not include defense contractors and oil barons

Some of them are probably enjoying their 'win' right now by snorting coke off a prostitute's ass.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Of course we did. There was no definition of "win".

When the objectives turn out to have been bullshit, there's no way to win.

Whatever. We got all the weapons of mass destruction north, east, west and south somewhat of Baghdad. yay.

[HopeHoops]

6. It was lost the day the Shrub ordered the invasion.

[leveymg]

8. We won like we "won" in Vietnam. Won every major battle (killed more of them), but lost the war

because wars are won or lost in the eyes of humanity and history.

We lost, both wars.

[ladjf]

9. The Iraqi war was a total disaster. It will go down as the

greatest foreign policy blunder in U.S. History. Nothing positive of accomplished and a host of terrible other results happened.

[WinkyDink]

40. Not if Texas writes the history books.

[ladjf]

44. I don't even see how "Crazy Texas" could classify the Iraq war

as anything other than catastrophic. nt

[Erose999]

10. Who were we fighting to lose to? I don't think our debacle in Iraq can be thought of in conventional

terms of win/lose. We were not fighting against a nation state. We were fighting against scattered and unorganized insurgents. It was a guerrilla war, in which we did accomplish SOME of our objectives. So the outcome is ambiguous at best.

What we "won":
1.) Saddam is gone
2.) Change in Iraq's leadership - accomodating to US interests (for now at least)
3.) Some level of "democracy" and increased "freedom" for Iraqis. At least on paper. Which is still more than they got from Saddam.


What we lost:
1.) Lots of dead American soldiers.
2.) Trillions of dollars.
3.) Moral capital with our allies.
4.) Un-constitutional growth of executive power
5.) Created a power vacuum in an already unstable region.

[Winterblues]

11. and increased "freedom" for Iraqis.

Ask any Christian or woman in Iraq if they agree with you...:shrug:

[Erose999]

16. Hence the quotes. Lets not pretend that we've created a harmonious "salad bowl" type culture where

everyone is equal and everybody gets along. But at least you don't have to be a certified Ba'ath party member to vote anymore.

[Recursion]

23. OTOH, ask many Shi'ites or Kurds and they might say "yes"

So, there's that.

[WinkyDink]

41. "Saddam is gone" is a "win"? The Saddam Rummy shook hands with? Our ally Saddam as he gassed Kurds?

THAT Saddam?

[LeftinOH]

12. b bbut, but...

[FSogol]

13. Win/Loss is too simplistic. The war was about oil contracts.

Saddam controlled all the oil contracts. He was removed from power and now multi-national corporations control those contracts. For the Neocons, this is a big win. For the citizens of Iraq, their country has been destabilized and this can only be a loss. For America? Unnecessary war, thousands of lives lost, billions spent. Loss in my book , but big win for the Halliburtons, NeoCons, Military/Industrial complex, etc.

[ozone_man]

25. And that is Why We Fight.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0436971/

Great documentary on the military industrial complex.

[WinkyDink]

42. AKA, Illegal Invasion for Grand Theft. WE ARE KILLERS and LOOTERS.

[TexasProgresive]

14. There never was a way to win in Iraq

or for that matter in Afganistan or Vietnam. Stupid is as stupid does!

Robert Heinlein wrote: You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their emotions quicker than you can convince one man by logic. It doesn't have to be a prejudice about an important matter either. Zebadiah Jones from If This Goes On AKA Revolt in 2100

[phleshdef]

15. We won our war with Iraq. We lost our war with Osama Bin Laden.

Wasting tons of money in a middle eastern country is exactly what he wanted.

[liberalla]

29. I disagree. They let Osama get away, and we lost in Iraq.

I don't see how we won anything.

When I say "we", I mean "we the people", or we, as a nation.

Corporatists probably feel differently.

[potassiumnitrate]

17. +1

No WMD means no victory, period. That was THE only justification given, and it turned out to be bogus.

[yurbud]

18. the WMD thing was such a transparent and childish lie, it embarrasses me to hear it

mentioned.

Anyone who lived through the Cold War and/or had the ability to think through the consequences for Iraq if they launched a nuke at us or gave them to terrorist to sneak in and detonate knew that it would have been suicidal for him to do so since we have thousands of nukes to retaliate with and no one would have criticized us for doing so.

Ron Paul actually questioned this on the floor of the House, and when pressed, even George Tenet was forced to admit that if Saddam had nukes, he would only use them in extremis like if we were about to kill him or remove him from power.

This is the same reason why any arguments about us or Israel being fearful of Iranian nukes are equally transparent lies. Israel has hundreds and we have thousands of nukes to respond with. Iranians are capable of doing math.

[yurbud]

19. instead of looking a ''win'' or ''lose,'' Congress should investigate who lobbied for the war

and what they expected to get out of it.

That was supposed to be the second half of their investigation into Iraq War lies, but they never made it that far.

Probably because too many of them were paid to buy the line of bullshit and resell it to us.

[Recursion]

20. Err

Every war has objectives, a casus belli. It doesn't matter if it "changes", the original commitment is what matters

I 100% disagree with you there. Wars' objectives always change.

[bushisanidiot]

21. We "lost" the minute we bombed innocent women and children

AWOL Bush's SHOCK AND AWE is the greatest act of evil this country has ever committed. We were completely UNPROVOKED, yet bombed them in "defense".

AWOL Bush is a mass murder. It's completely idiotic to speak of the Iraq war in terms of "win or lose". We lost. Iraq lost. The fucking HUMAN RACE lost!!

EVIL won.

[Jester Messiah]

22. Oh no, my friend, it was a HUGE win.

Huge for those who profit from war. Those who provide weapons, ammo, vehicles, drones, and ever-so-loosely-affiliated muscle are absolutely rolling in it right now.

Also, as one of Keith's guests was saying last night, it was a pretty huge win for Iran, too. They haven't wielded so much influence in Iraq since the Iranian Revolution.

And for that matter, China scored a staggering amount of US debt out of this. Gigantic win for China.

You and me, though, we're screwed.

[Hekate]

31. I have to agree. The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld juggernaut won. The Masters of War won. WE lost.

The soldiers did everything the government asked them to do -- President Obama made a point of saying that. Reading between the lines of his recent speech he also did not "praise" Bush, he said that Junior screwed up. Our military personnel lost lives and limbs at George W. Bush's behest. Bush/Cheney and the Neocons lied us into this war, and I hope their cynical souls rot in Hell.

As far as I'm concerned, President Obama got us out just as he promised: in an orderly manner over 18 months. Now he's going to get us out of Afghanistan in the same manner if humanly possible.

I don't blame the current president for trying to disentangle us from these wars, and I don't think he "owns" them. I blame the Bush Regime, and will despise them forever for it.

As an aside regarding the Americans remaining in Iraq: We stopped fighting Japan several years before I was born. As of a year ago there were 35,688 U.S. military personnel stationed in Japan, and another 5,500 American civilians employed there by the United States. Make of that what you will.

Hekate

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[AtomicKitten]

27. Precisely why Pres Obama didn't declare victory. nt

[JCMach1]

30. As with others here, depends on how you count up the victory...

There were many winners in Iraq

Halliburton
Bechtel
Blackwater
Numerous major oil companies and military suppliers
Bush (it kept his incompetent ass in office)

The losers were the people of the U.S. and Iraq

DUers seem to forget the corporations ARE America these days...

[slackmaster]

32. Who won it?

:shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

34. Osama Bin Laden, Blackwater, Halliburton, Kellogg, Brown, and Root

And Dick Cheney, unless he's arrested for mass murder before he croaks.

[smalll]

33. No, instead tell the families of those who died, or those who have been permanently disabled,

that we LOST! (Don't forget the full caps on the L-word.)

tell them that we were doomed to failure; tell them that all us smart folks knew it would be an inevitable quagmire --

tell tham that it was all "war crimes" -- tell them there's no danger in this world but what the United States brings upon itself through its own bumbling and misguided foreign policy --

Tell them that we're evil, and that our enemies are good -- as NO other head of state has ever told his own people, even when they deserve to hear it more, far more than Americans do now --

The Rape of Nanking makes Lyndie England and Charles Graner pale in comparison. But read again what the Emperor of Japan said after we had atom-bombed them into submission:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hirohito.htm

Not exactly the prostrating hear-shirtery that too many around here thirst for. :shrug:

[WinkyDink]

39. Wow. Dulce et Decorum Est to you.

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

[Jokerman]

43. They deserve to hear the truth, however painful it may be.

They gave their lives for nothing more than to further a corrupt political machine.

[underpants]

36. The who? the what?..... oh that. We don't talk about that anymore

that is too hard to explain by the corporate media

[Regret My New Name]

37. Valid points... funny how so many on the other side fail to see that...

Even being generous, we really fucked up on many levels....

[WinkyDink]

38. The U.S. lost because the entire venture was a DELIBERATE war-crime. WE KNEW THERE WERE NO WMDs.

But BUSH and CHENEY WON. Halliburton, Blackwater, the Carlyle Group, etc.

There is a HUGE difference.