L. A. Times evaluates teacher who was out of the country on a Fulbright Scholarship.

[madfloridian]

That is just amazing to me. They have their little test scores through the years down pat. Only thing is they failed to notice that a teacher they evaluated as being there....wasn't.

The absurdities just keep on keeping on.

"But she's not there..."

I didn't know why the words to this '60s pop tune kept playing in my head. Then I realized, it was all because of Nancy Joanne Vinicor, the teacher who wasn't there. Normally she would have been there, there being teaching 5th graders at Clover Avenue Elementary School in L.A. But instead, Vinicor tells the L.A. Times,

"I was out of the country this past school year as a Fulbright Teacher, a prestigious program granted to exceptional teachers after a thorough application process."

But her absence didn't prevent the Times from evaluating her teaching, along with that of 6,000 other teachers, based solely on their students' standardized test scores and using a new but highly suspect value-added formula.

Interesting comment:

My teacher/brother Fred tweeted an intriguing question:

"If not being there because you were on a Fulbright makes you average, what would being absent to accept a Nobel prize make you?"

Here is Nancy Vinicor's response to the L. A. Times.

Nancy Vinicor's Response

I was out of the country this past school year as a Fulbright Teacher, a prestigious program granted to exceptional teachers after a thorough application process. My question is: what data was used to so-called 'rate' me? Additionally, this rating is not a reflection of the scores or the learning of my students. My school (the last year I was there) had an API of 948. My students are high achieving and happy. The ceiling is a lot closer. A random viewer can now look at personal data that inaccurately labels my performance as a teacher and reach the conclusion that I am an 'average' teacher. It is misleading. The public will not necessarily see beyond this. I, personally, am not threatened by this label, but it is simplistic and unfair to so many dedicated and hard-working teachers.

I find this process unhelpful to everyone. How will this improve teaching practices? An education encompasses so much more than a numerical standardized score. Will this benefit anyone? Accountability is crucial in any profession, especially one with such a huge impact on the future of so many, but this is not accountability. This is witch-hunting in the guise of transparency.

[EFerrari]

1. It is witch hunting and lying with statistics. n/t

[madfloridian]

4. I will check back tomorrow to see all the excuses.

I am sure there will be many.

This is just wrong on so many levels.

[EFerrari]

7. It's hard to think of anything that could be more disruptive

to a teaching pair than this sh!t.

[msanthrope]

35. No excuses, just using the links you gave---

The teacher was on Fullbright this past year, right? 2009 to 2010????

But the La Times only used data:


"available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years."

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-j... /



Apparently, the last academic year--when she was on Fullbright--2009 to 2010 wasn't used.

So what's the problem?

[xocet]

59. Semantics or More...?

It may come down to semantics; however, such an important and intrusive project should not be presented in an ambiguous manner. Do you see how the second line in the excerpt can be read in multiple ways? The problem is an apparent lack of care in putting together this project. Why trust the quality of a project that - on its face - shows imprecision?

Nancy Joanne Vinicor

A 5th grade teacher at Clover Avenue Elementary in 2009

These graphs show a teacher's "value-added" rating based on his or her students' progress on the California Standards Tests in math and English. The Times’ analysis used all valid student scores available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years. The value-added scores reflect a teacher's effectiveness at raising standardized test scores and, as such, capture only one aspect of a teacher's work.

...

(http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-joanne-vinicor)

[msanthrope]

63. How does one argue "semantics" over the second line?

"The Times’ analysis used all valid student scores available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years."

If a TEACHER thinks that includes the 2009-2010 academic year, or if a TEACHER is unfamiliar with how academic years are commonly referred to, then I suggest, respectfully, that that teacher should not be retained.

Luckily, the adept teachers on this board caught and exposed this.

Oh, wait.....

[xocet]

88. The second line of text that I posted is the following:

"A 5th grade teacher at Clover Avenue Elementary in 2009"

The underlined part is disputable depending on how "at" is defined and on how the year "2009" is defined.

There is no need for the sarcasm at the end of your comment; I could have made a sarcastic comment about counting, but I did not.

[msanthrope]

97. Again, how do you argue this is semantics? It is a failure of reading comprehension.

Yes, she was there in 2009. That is undisputed. If she was unsure as to what was being calibrated, she, and other teachers on this board could have read more than the title.

Reading comprehension means reading the whole thing--not just the title--and thus, when one does that, one realizes that both statements are true at the same time:

She was there in the year 2009. (Title)
The last academic year calibrated in the Times study is 2008-2009. (2nd line of text)

This is a person competent to teach 5th graders? One who could not read past a title, and comprehend text?

[October]

112. Good post.

[xocet]

144. Ok. Have it your way....

It cannot be helped if you would prefer to argue over an unrelated statement instead of discussing the point I suggested.

[izzybeans]

73. I could care less if this teacher's fullbright year was evaluated or not.

I just realized this reply was posted in the wrong subthread. Sorry. (on edit)

Every other profession is subject to privacy laws, why not teachers?

This is disgusting. And its no wonder its created an atmosphere of distrust and fear. I'm not going to be naive and say that we used to be a nation of decent people, I'm just going to say we are far from that ideal. This is just one more episode in irrational hysterics, couched within the veneer of objectivity. "Did you say that they didn't evaluate her Fullbright year!?! I'm series!!!!" Fuck that. Are your performance evaluations published by a news agency? Most of us have jobs that impact the public, all of us have the right to do our jobs without fear of outside influence, threats, or demands...unless you are a teacher. I don't agree with everything that our educators post on this site, but this topic is worth going to bat over. This is a direct attack on the autonomy of the profession, on academic freedom, and just basic common sense.

Value added models are probably the least problematic way of using quantitative modeling techniques to measure the school's impact on student performance. It's irresponsible to use them in this way. They are nothing but an estimate of impact and should be read like a thermometer at best. You don't burn your clothes just because the temperature gets too hot do you? however, you would let a fashion designer take the lead on deciding what is and is not quality work, right? Why is it different for teachers?

[msanthrope]

74. Privacy laws??? Actual professions publish misdeeds and incompetence.

Professionals---you know, people with licenses given at the pleasure of the state--Doctors, lawyers, dentists, contractors, restaurant owners, daycare owners, TEACHERS etc...their misdeeds and fuck ups get reported.

Guess what? In return for certification, or a license by the state, you give up certain rights for the privilege. One of those rights is 'privacy.' If you are an incompetent lawyer, doctor, or teacher, you deserve to be outed.

Or are you seriously advocating that teachers are not professionals, and although they are state-licensed, they escape scrutiny?

[HankyDubs]

77. but these professions

aren't judged to be incompetent based on children's test scores (which are highly dependent on numerous factors out of the teachers' control)...but on ratings provided by clients.

[izzybeans]

90. Yep.

I'd love to be able to judge clinical psychologists based on how many of their clients are cured successfully.

[Hannah Bell]

154. That would be none, Jim. But lots of them make good money practicing this fraudulent "profession".

Numerous studies to that effect. Psychiatrists, psychologists no more effective than lay counselors. Who are themselves not particularly effective. Psych drugs about as effective as placebo. The profession is a tool of power in its orientation & practices.

[izzybeans]

179. .

I agree wholeheartedly.

I was sorta being sarcastic. :)

[Hannah Bell]

183. i understood that. the comments were for the peanut gallery who thinks it's

ok to attack other professions -- though their own is much more fraudulent. and also funded with public money.

[msanthrope]

94. Well, who chose a profession that involved testing children?

[HankyDubs]

106. pathetically weak response

Since you only responded with triteness, I'll put to you again...the ratings for other professions are related to client's responses to surveys, not on arbitrary test scores subject to multiple variables.

If a surgeon was judged by mortality rates, or a psychologist on rates of full recovery, that would obviously be unfair. That's why those professions aren't treated like this.

But it's perfectly clear you have a teacher-bashing union-busting agenda and aren't terribly interested facts that don't fit an alternate reality. You don't really know what you are talking about.

[msanthrope]

110. You do realize that LA public school doesn't use this method, right?

The Times does.

And districts that use this method, only use it as a percentage of a teacher's evaluation. (DC uses it for about 30%, I think.)

What you have here is a teacher, who isn't a Fulbright Scholar, as some have claimed, whining in a public newspaper about a study she didn't understand. This doesn't affect her job--her profession isn't being subject to attack. Her union isn't being busted.

She has made a public fool of herself, and for some reason, posters here thought this teacher was a good example of the indignities suffered by their profession.

I think you chose a symbol badly.

[Hannah Bell]

155. The Times doesn't either. Oligarch Bill Gates & his hired RAND gun do.

The "method", which is akin to rolling dice, is just a way to divide teachers into groups so they can be picked off more easily.

[izzybeans]

89. There was no misdeed published by the LA Times.

Post your performance review here. Thanks. We all have a right to know if your work has endangered the public.

Professionals utilize licensing requirements so that they can maintain a modicum of professional autonomy. They don't post mundane data with suspect validity and subject themselves to hysterical political wrangling.

Let's publish the number of people who die in every doctor's care. That'll be grand.

[msanthrope]

93. Taking public money to be an incompetent teacher is a misdeed.

As for my performance reviews, my bar association reports misdeed and incompetence.

And every client who seeks to hire me can look at my percentages, and get references.

Why shouldn't teachers be held to the same standard?

[sabrina 1]

128. Well, I'm not impressed by the bar association's willingness to

report the misdeeds of attorneys. Having had occasion to report a lawyer for gross misconduct, all that happened was a letter claiming they 'had looked into the matter and found nothing requiring any action'.

He went on for years after that misrepresenting other clients, with complaints constantly being registered, something that didn't bother him at all or his bar association.

[Hannah Bell]

153. Nice straw. These "ratings" were devised by a RAND analyst, paid for with

Gates Foundation money channeled through another "non-profit," & were put in the Times as yet another way to attack, denigrate & scapegoat teachers.

There are no "misdeeds". There is no "incompetence". The "ratings" are in fact as random as tossing dice, & if one actually thinks about what they're based on, one would know that.

Your post is a big stinking pile of dirty straw.

[Hannah Bell]

152. +100

[HankyDubs]

75. So what's the problem?

Do you have any idea what a Fullbright is? How on God's green earth do you figure that a teacher who wins such an award should be labeled "average" based on a test score?

It's clear we have several people here with an anti-teacher, anti-union agenda.

[msanthrope]

100. Do you have any idea that she isn't a Fulbright Scholar?

That's right--she isn't. She was part of their Teacher Exchange Program. She traded places with a teacher from Wales.

[HankyDubs]

108. Fine

Fine...but that doesn't actually make much of a difference. Only a fool would think that a teacher who meets the qualifications for this Fullbright exchange program is "average."

[msanthrope]

111. It's not fine when a person is misrepresented as a Fulbright Scholar.

It's an insult to actual Scholars.

[HankyDubs]

143. again you failed to respond

to the point. You cannot possibly regard as "fair" an evaluation that labels this Fullbright exchange teacher as "average."

[Hannah Bell]

158. oh, bullshit. They're all listed as "Fulbrighters" by the state dept.

you're really reaching. for obvious reasons.

http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/being/whoare/fulbright-2009-2010-grantees.

[Hannah Bell]

156. There are only 120 Fulbright Teachers chosen every year. It's highly competitive,

& prestigious.

State Dept lists Fulbright exchange teachers, distinguished teachers (12 only), scholars & students as "Fulbrighters" on its website:

http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/being/whoare/fulbright-2009-2010-grantees.

[Hannah Bell]

157. .

[msanthrope]

32. No--it's reading comprehension problems for this teacher and some posters....

The teacher was on Fullbright this past year, right? 2009 to 2010????

But the La Times only used data:


"available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years."

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-j... /



Apparently, the last academic year--when she was on Fullbright--2009 to 2010 wasn't used.

So what's the problem?

[Diane R]

36. +1

[Joe Fields]

48. It isn't reading comprehension problems. It is a willful omission of facts

that don't serve her purpose.

[msanthrope]

64. Did not the Bush era teach us to never underestimate the sheer

pervasiveness of stupidity?

[Hannah Bell]

159. nasty stuff.

[Gormy Cuss]

98. How does an average teacher qualify for an exceptional scholarship?

Perhaps that's an indication of a problem with the methodology used by the L.A. Times to rank teachers.

[msanthrope]

99. Um, she's not a Fulbright Scholar, you realize, right?

She took part in their teacher exchange program....

Obviously, the standards are quite different.

[Gormy Cuss]

107. Yes, I know how to read.

Does the teacher exchange have low standards?

[msanthrope]

109. "Does the teacher exchange has low standards?" We know they didn't test Vinicor for reading

comprehension.

Why don't you look up the standards needed to apply?

[Gormy Cuss]

115. Ah. You're arguing without knowledge of the standards used for the teacher exchange.

Got it.

[msanthrope]

116. Dude, I'm not gonna do your Googling for you.

If you think the teacher exchange application is as rigorous as the process for becoming a Fellow, or a Scholar, then do your due diligence and prove that.

[Hannah Bell]

166. do it for yourself, you're woefully uninformed.

[madfloridian]

2. One more paragraph from Mike Klonsky's blog. Amen.

"So far, no answer from the Times gang. The whole scene presents a problem, not only for the Times, which has published the names. pictures and rankings of thousands of L.A. teachers; for the district, which is sharing that heretofore confidential information with the media; and for Arne Duncan as well. Duncan applauded the teacher-naming, not even waiting for the ink to dry. The problem is that it only takes one example like Vinicor's to cast doubt upon the entire process."

[Joe Fields]

17. While evaluating this teacher's last year was totally unfair, the whole

story is not being told. The OP forgot to mention that ten years worth of evaluations are what makes up the composite.

[Diane R]

37. +1

[msanthrope]

39. No--the whole story is they DIDN'T use her Fullbright year....see posts 35 & 32

Not only did they NOT use her Fullbright year, but no teacher on this thread caught that....

[msanthrope]

104. AND MORE of the story--the lady in question is NOT a Fulbright Scholar.

That's right--she didn't get a Fulbright.....

She was involved in the teacher exchange program.

[Hannah Bell]

161. Bullshit. She got a Fulbright. They're ALL EXCHANGE PROGRAMS.

Which Fulbright Grant Is Right For Me?

Fulbright grant categories and programs are listed below....Fulbright offers grants for STUDENTS, SCHOLARS, TEACHERS, AND PROFESSIONALS.



GRANTS FOR STUDENTS

The Fulbright U.S. Student Program offers fellowships for U.S. graduating seniors, graduate students, young professionals and artists to study abroad....

The Fulbright Foreign Student Program enables graduate students, young professionals and artists from abroad to conduct research and study in the United States...

GRANTS FOR SCHOLARS

The Fulbright U.S. Scholar Program sends American scholars and professionals abroad to lecture and/or conduct research for up to a year...

The Fulbright Specialists Program sends U.S. faculty and professionals to serve as expert consultants on curriculum, faculty development, institutional planning, and related subjects at overseas academic institutions...

The Fulbright Visiting Scholar Program and Fulbright Scholar-in-Residence Program bring foreign scholars to lecture and/or conduct post-doctoral research for up to a year at U.S. colleges and universities...

The Fulbright Foreign Language Teaching Assistant Program provides opportunities for young English teachers from overseas to refine their teaching skills and broaden their knowledge of American culture and society while strengthening the instruction of foreign languages at colleges and universities in the United States.


GRANTS FOR TEACHERS

The Fulbright Teacher Exchange Program supports one-to-one exchanges of teachers from K-12 schools and a small number of post-secondary institutions....


GRANTS FOR PROFESSIONALS

The Hubert H. Humphrey Program brings outstanding mid-career professionals from the developing world and societies in transition to the United States for one year....

The Fulbright U.S. Scholar Program sends American scholars and professionals abroad to lecture and/or conduct research for up to a year.

The Fulbright Specialists Program sends U.S. faculty and professionals to serve as expert consultants on curriculum, faculty development, institutional planning, and related subjects at overseas academic institutions...

The Fulbright U.S. Student Program offers fellowships for U.S. graduating seniors, graduate students, young professionals and artists to study abroad for one academic year. The Program also includes an English Teaching Assistant component...

The Fulbright Foreign Student Program enables graduate students, young professionals and artists from abroad to conduct research and study in the United States...

http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/about/whichgrant

[JuniperLea]

114. Ouch...

Not good.

[YvonneCa]

53. GIGO...

...ever hear 'garbage in, garbage out'? The CA data system for the last 10 years measures GARBAGE. How do you judge a teacher with that?

[Joe Fields]

58. You're calling teachers "garbage?"

[YvonneCa]

60. Of course not. Sorry if I was unclear. The data...

...gathering process is flawed. Maybe someday it will be perfected...but right now it isn't even close. So the RESULTS of the data gathered (garbage in) is no good (garbage out).

What we all want is a way to figure out who the good teachers are. We don't have that yet. I hope we eventually will. Until then, tagging teachers as 'effective'... or whatever the label...needs to be postponed. To do otherwise is wrong. It will result in labeling good teachers as ineffective, bad teachers as effective and so on. No one wins with that scenario...not the kids, not the teachers, not President Obama, not the Democrats...not anybody.

[Hannah Bell]

160. They're not "evaluations". They're student test scores. On non-equivalent tests to boot.

On different students.

The results are akin to rolling dice, i.e. random.

All the "rating" is is a number that can be used to rank teachers. The ranking itself is bullshit, but the people pushing it don't care; it suits their purpose, which is the destruction of teachers' unions & public education.

period.

[mike r]

3. Evaluation in absentia

[madfloridian]

5. And without proper data.

:shrug:

Amazing.

[Joe Fields]

18. How do we know it is without proper data?

[YvonneCa]

61. I would recommend Diane Ravitch's book...

...'The Death and Life of the Great American School System.' She is a researcher who was Asst. Secretary of Education under Lamar Alexander (under GHW Bush). She documents everything in her bibliography.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

91. A retraction and an apology is in order, ma'am.

You are willfully skewing facts to serve your own purpose. Shame on you.

[rpannier]

181. Agreed

And I'm still waiting on yours

[msanthrope]

33. They didn't use her Fullbright year---

The teacher was on Fullbright this past year, right? 2009 to 2010????

But the La Times only used data:


"available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years."

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-j... /

[Diane R]

38. How so? Read the article...they didn't evaluate her in absentia.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. The only reason for "no child left behind" is to destroy public education in favor of rightwing

Christian private schools that will teach the kids to fear evolution, brown people, foreigners, and people who aren't rightwing fundamentalist evangelical megachurch Christians.

All mentions of Christian in this post should be read as though they are in quotations.

[Winterblues]

22. Why was Ted Kennedy one of the creators of it then?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

24. I think Kennedy figured he'd been had. But now it is Dem policy.

They are pushing the Bush agenda very hard. Not a single leading Democrat is speaking out on this issue as they should.

[msanthrope]

67. Ted Kennedy was had? To read this, so close to the anniversary of his death....

I've read some offensive shit on DU.

But this takes the fucking cake.

[Hannah Bell]

80. lol,

[msanthrope]

95. Ted Kennedy's death makes you laugh, Hannah? Do tell. n/t

[Hannah Bell]

96. your straw makes me laugh. also the "outrage" over your own straw creations.

[Rabrrrrrr]

145. I.... what?!?! Seriously, you think that offering an opinion about Ted's thoughts

near the date of his death is somehow evil or otherwise an abomination unto him?

seriously, WTF?

:wtf:

I don't get it. But then, I'm well trained in logic and actual intellectual style of thinking and processing data.

I'm sure I'm evil because of it, but I prefer to think that it's not so much about being evil as it is about thinking like a human being.

[proud2BlibKansan]

146. Ted Kennedy didn't support the implementation of NCLB

Your misinterpretation of the facts to suit your own agenda is what takes the cake here.

[flyarm]

8. Good thing I am not a teacher..My votes would have to be fought for and so far

anyone with Arne Duncan on their staff..would not get my vote.

Duncan is the scum of all scum !

[Luminous Animal]

9. Kick.

[madfloridian]

10. .....

Thanks. I think this is just shocking.

[Doremus]

11. It's not witch hunting. It's treasure hunting. And union busting. nt

[riderinthestorm]

14. Union busting for sure. You got in and posted this just before I did. K and R

not because I like this story particularly but for greater exposure.

It's crazy that Obama is endorsing these types of actions (like publishing this data) that are really intentional slams on teachers, and now it turns out the posting of this has some serious flaws. WTF? It just looks terrible for him and his Admin.



(shakes head)

[Blue_Tires]

16. +1000

[Dappleganger]

140. Best post in the entire thread.

[hedgehog]

12. Is the problem here that teachers should never be rated, or that

the methods used to rate them now can't capture the data? Engineers run into this problem all the time. I can look at a situation and say we'd be better off going with slightly more expensive "A" than with cheaper "B", but coming up with the numbers to prove it is very hard. How do you measure 10 minutes less maintenance time here, 15 minutes more up-time there? Again, I once saw a very pretty chart showing that the compressed air was perfectly dry day after day, even as I was replacing valves full of ice. The guy filling out the chart checked the dial every day and never opened the cabinet to discover that the air dryer was kaput. So, how do you measure for the teacher who gets her students to read a newspaper on a regular basis, and what about the students who ace the test without understanding what they've learned?

The problem with measuring a teacher's effectiveness is also aggravated because students don't respond to a single teacher, they respond to an entire system. For example, a student may stay in school and keep working on his math homework because he is encouraged by the band teacher. Another student may skip school because she is ashamed of her clothes. A third may have a fight with the history teacher first thing every morning, then sulk in the back row in every other class that day.

My first two kids had a fantastic high school principal. My third kid went to the same school two years later and suffered for four years under a fool. Same teachers, same school, same rule book, same group of kids; but an entirely different experience. How could anyone measure the difference between those two principals that made such an incredible difference in the school?

[madfloridian]

13. I ask how do you measure a Fulbright scholar who isn't there?

I would assume that means the evaluation system is flawed.

People seem content to allow their children to be reduced to a single test score. :shrug:

[hedgehog]

15. I think that incident is analogous to the supervisor who very

carefully recorded the information each day from a dial that wasn't connected to anything!

[Joe Fields]

19. You are so disingenuous. You know full well that there is more here

than you are willing to tell. But you are so biased, that you are more than willing to use the same type of propaganda tactics that your opponents use. Which leads to credibility issues on both sides.

I would just like the truth from both sides, unvarnished, free from propaganda or talking points of this issue, but I am not going to get it, am I?

[wolfgangmo]

27. It's not that you aren't going to get it.

It's that you won't recognize it when you see it because it doesn't match with what you already have decided.

JMO

[Joe Fields]

51. There is nothing wrong with my perception and reasoning skills.

If you cannot recognize pure propaganda when you see it, don't blame me. Look in the mirror and ask yourself a few basic questions.

[YvonneCa]

55. ...

...:applause:

[Diane R]

41. You do understand, don't you, that the Fulbright year was not evaluated?

[msanthrope]

102. She's not a Fulbright Scholar. Why claim she is, when she isn't? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

162. SO WHAT? SHE RECEIVED A FULBRIGHT GRANT TO GO OVERSEAS SAME AS A FULBRIGHT SCHOLAR.

HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU NEED TO MAKE THE SAME PHONY, MEANINGLESS DISTINCTION?

[proud2BlibKansan]

171. Hannah, she obviously received the scholarship because they wanted to get rid of her for a year

It's a perfect plan!

[Hannah Bell]

172. lol. god, i read through this thread & i wonder where the hell i am.

it's like winger central. THESE ARE THE IDEAS THE JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY WAS PUSHING IN THE 60s!!!!

[Diane R]

40. Good post, Hedgehog. But, here's the question: What do we do with the bad principals and teachers?

I believe we need to work hard to rid the educational system of teachers and administrators who do more harm than good. We are having a flood of threads on DU that seem to advocate teacher tenure, seniority and salary trump everything else.

I think President Obama and Arne Duncan are engaged in an honest faith effort to improve American education for our kids. Some teachers may have to lose their jobs to achieve that.

Evaluating teachers is hard, but evaluating many occupations is hard. I happen to believe that students and parents have some valuable insights into whether a teacher is effective.

[YvonneCa]

57. ...

"I believe we need to work hard to rid the educational system of teachers and administrators who do more harm than good."

We should, but that problem is overstated. The educational system has bigger problems than that...and we'll fail if we don't focus on the right things. Remember how GWB took his focus off Afghanistan and took us to Iraq? Same thing.

"We are having a flood of threads on DU that seem to advocate teacher tenure, seniority and salary trump everything else."

True...hear teachers, not unions.

"I think President Obama and Arne Duncan are engaged in an honest faith effort to improve American education for our kids."

So do I...and I want him to be the President that gets it right. He's not hearing from enough stakeholders.

"Some teachers may have to lose their jobs to achieve that."

ONLY the bad ones. We need the ones who are dedicated...many of whom work in low-performing schools.

"Evaluating teachers is hard, but evaluating many occupations is hard."

True. No one is making the case to not evaluate teachers. Just do it right, with GOOD data as a very small part of a teacher's worth.

"I happen to believe that students and parents have some valuable insights into whether a teacher is effective."
They do. So do teachers. And teachers also have VALUABLE INSIGHTS into what is wrong in schools.We spend a lot of time there. ;)

"What do we do with the bad principals and teachers?"

Counsel them out...but use fair evaluations to do so. That is NOT what is happening now. If it was, I'd still be teaching.

[LWolf]

87. + 10

[YvonneCa]

92. Thanks. n/t

[LWolf]

86. You "get it." Thank you. nt

[xchrom]

20. Recommend

[madfloridian]

21. Amazing. The Times publishes evaluation of a teacher who was not there....

She was a prestigious Fulbright scholar whom they rated as average. There are very few if any "average" Fulbright scholars.

They rated her for a year she was not there. That makes this a faulty tool which will hurt many good teachers.

I see this being defended already, and the effort begins to make me look like I am spreading propaganda. Amazing to me.

[Diane R]

42. No they didn't.

[Joe Fields]

52. Useful tactic: peppering your own thread with running commentary.

[madfloridian]

23. It's like the Scarlet Letter for teachers. Read the responses.

I have been so angered by this public shaming, seeing Arne in the name of Obama defend this publication.

It's like it is not the same man I voted for in 2008. I don't know where he went. I knew he supported charter schools, but I thought at least there was some respect for the teaching profession. There is not. There is an arrogant condescension.

This humiliation of teachers is being done with Obama's approval. It sickens me.

Read the responses.

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/responses/page/1/

[HoraceX]

25. Teachers' unions helping to destroy America.

The purpose of a union is to provide its members with greater compensation for less performance. This is fine enough for plumbers and baseball players, but for education it's suicidal.

Our public education system is kaput. The primary cause is neglectful parents. Above all it is mom and dad's job to make sure Johnny can read. Instead they rely on the system to babysit Johnny for 7 hours a day.

The secondary cause are the teachers. By and large American public school teachers are quite poor. Those of you that have spent time overseas in other developed countries can speak to the disparity in the caliber of teachers here and abroad. Part of the reason is certainly the lack of parental support and poor pay, but also, the system is brimming with teachers that need to be shown the door.

As long as the teachers' unions primary goal is to keep incompetent teachers employed, this county will continue to fall behind.

[LanternWaste]

28. Then we can only imagine...

"As long as the teachers' unions primary goal is to keep incompetent teachers employed, this county will continue to fall behind..."

Then we can only imagine that those countries who's education system surpasses the U.S. education system are not in fact unionized...?

[wolfgangmo]

29. Herrings, herrings everywhere and not a fact to be seen.

Anyone else you want to blame?

Parents? Teachers (who suck compared to anyone else anywhere)? Really? But my biggest problem is your assumption that teachers are protected by the union and that bad ones cannot be fired. IT's simply not true.

As a business owner, if I don't fire an incompetant (or retrain them up to standard) then I am incompetant and not the employee. It's is the bosses (read: principal) responsibility.

But keep believing that tenure exists.

[Diane R]

43. Bravo. Except, I support teacher's unions, just not their efforts to protect incompetent teachers.

[LiberalLovinLug]

45. Seriously? "...the teachers' unions primary goal is to keep incompetent teachers employed"

Ludicrous!
So any teacher accused of some wrongful act or incompetency, should be assumed to be guilty and have no representation on his/her side to defend them? If some vindictive right wing school board decides that a teacher who pushed for students to watch Obama's speech on education last year, should be let go, the teacher's union should just shrug its shoulders?

Or is it that you don't believe in unions at all?

My dad was an elementary school teacher. Long hours, lots of stress for very modest pay. I imagine some get into the career and are overwhelmed with the stress, and become disillusioned and cranky and not the best they could be, but those people usually end up leaving the profession eventually.

To say that statement you totally disregard the value of the union in fighting for better classroom sizes, facilities, and yes even wages for this perpetually underpaid profession.

[Hannah Bell]

47. absolute garbage. disgusting.

[Starry Messenger]

54. *yawn*

[Catshrink]

71. On what basis do you claim that American public school teachers are quite poor?

What is your evidence for that? Do you have any or are you just making shit up?

[RayOfHope]

83. The pay isn't lucrative. My husband and I are teachers

and when I took some time off to stay at home with my kiddos when they were babies, we qualified for WIC, and qualified for free lunches when my daughter entered kindergarten.

Now we're both working and we're not poor, but the pay isn't great. My state ranks near the very bottom for teacher pay, though.

The rest of this guys post sucks, though :)

[Catshrink]

84. In that sense, it is rough to make ends meet a lot of the time.

I was referring to the poster's meaning of poor. He of course has no qualifications or basis on which to make that judgement. He's just another teacher-bashing asshole with a grudge transferring his hatred for his 3rd grade teacher onto all teachers.

I thought my state was at the bottom in pay...the way things are going, we're all in a RttB for that $10/hr contract teacher pay that's coming - only getting paid for the time we're in front of the class because that's the only time we're working.

[RayOfHope]

82. Not all states have an active union presence. Missouri sure doesn't.

The metro areas have active unions, but not where I live. In fact, joining the NEA labels you a troublemaker, so most teachers don't.

And my district fired plenty of incompetent people last year.

[Sparkly]

138. Oh for cryin' out loud.

Check in after you've gained a real clue about teachers, students, schools and teachers' unions... not to mention all the OTHER "disparities" between this country and "socialized" (= ooh scary evil bad) OTHER countries. :eyes:

[Starry Messenger]

26. I posted your OP on Facebook.

I have some "friends" (and some relatives too) who need to see just how stupid this new "reform" effort is.

[msanthrope]

34. Did you note that the study didn't use her Fullbright year?

The teacher was on Fullbright this past year, right? 2009 to 2010????

But the La Times only used data:


"available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years."

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-j... /



So, as an example of a teacher who can't read, this is pretty good.

[Diane R]

44. Do you tell them that the Fulbright year was not evaluated?

[Starry Messenger]

56. I have you both on ignore.

Save your efforts for someone who enjoys anti-teacher propaganda.

[msanthrope]

66. Numbers are now anti-union?

Seriously.

[Hannah Bell]

163. Yes, these particular numbers & their Gates-funded "analysis" are anti-union.

and you damn well know it.

[hunter]

30. Convincing kids to care is a teacher's first job.

Some places the parents have already accomplished that and teaching is easy. The kids come to school ready and willing to learn.

I used to teach. The entire system was dysfunctional and a reflection of the greater U.S. society. I had students who are long dead or in prison because gangs and drugs were much more attractive than school or jobs. I think that says a lot about our schools and our jobs.

[msanthrope]

31. Nancy Vinicor has a serious reading comprehension problem---along with some posters.

From Madfloridian's link--the Times used data:


available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years.

http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-joanne-vinicor/



Apparently, the last academic year--when she was on Fullbright--2009 to 2010 wasn't used.

So what's the problem?

[eridani]

79. Explain how an "average" teacher ever managed to win a fellowship in a program

--designed for exceptionally good teachers.

[msanthrope]

101. She isn't a Fulbright Scholar. Nor a Fellow. She was in the Exchange Program.

She traded with a teacher from Wales.

I'm betting the application process for Teacher Exchange isn't as rigorous as other Fulbright programs.

[eridani]

142. I'm betting it isn't open to just anyone. You have to have a high rating as a teacher

--to even be eligible.

[Hannah Bell]

164. I'm betting you don't know what you're talking about. All Fulbrights are competitive, all

Fulbrights are "exchanges" (go overseas or come here), & there are only 120 Fulbright Teachers + 12 distinguished teachers accepted every year. That makes about 2 per state & us territories. All recipients of fulbright grants are fulbrighters.

http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/about/whichgrant

US Dept of State doesn't make the distinctions you're making.

[Jax]

46. k&r. Thanks as always mad

The witch hunt is on full bore.

:thumbsup: for you continuing stellar efforts here to keep us in the know on what is happening to teachers.

And it is sickening.

[RainDog]

49. This incident reveals the absolute propaganda behind this union-busting bullshit

And it is SICKENING to see Democrats support it.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

151. Actually, it seems quite the opposite when facts are included.

One side is using propaganda. The other is using statistics and research.

[Hannah Bell]

165. lol. like statistics & research can't be used to lie, cheat & steal.

what crap. unbelievable. on this "democratic" board.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

174. As if anecdotes can't be used to lie!

I can't believe YOUR bullshit on a "democratic" board. YOU are the one spouting status-quo, conservative fucking NONSENSE. I am trying to make PROGRESS. Remember that word? It's the first part of "PROGRESSIVE" meaning one who wants to see change to make the country better.

You are no progressive.

[Hannah Bell]

175. yeah, adopting the ideas of the john birch society = "progress".

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

176. Status quo does not equal progress.

Sliding from the top of the world to worse than Croatia in international benchmarks does not equal progress.

Keeping literally 98.7% of all teachers each year despite drop out rates of over 50% in some areas and literacy rates of under 40% for many 8th grade students does not equal progress.

Keeping a school year calendar that was designed around an agrarian economy does not equal progress.

Not using research based methods for teaching and research based methods for teacher evaluation does not equal progress.

You are not a progressive on education.

[Hannah Bell]

177. neither does the John Birch Society's programme for fascism & free markets.

"Progess" = orwellian use of the word.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

178. And what of the NAACP? What of La Raza? National League of Cities? Center for American Progress?

Because they're all much closer to my line of thinking than yours.

As for John Birch - you're the only ones bringing them to the party, which certainly leads one to wonder about YOUR motives.

[Hannah Bell]

182. get back to me when those orgs recommend that bullshit "ratings" of teachers be published in the

paper.

[Odin2005]

62. This is disgusting!

[msanthrope]

65. Indeed--that the teacher could not read the study is indeed disgusting.

As noted in post 32 and 35 above, the teacher who was complaining simply didn't realize that she wasn't being evaluated for her Fullbright year.

[HankyDubs]

76. No, the disgusting thing

is the nasty anti-teacher agenda and inability to understand that a Fullbright award winning teacher is not "average."

[msanthrope]

105. She isn't a Fulbright Scholar. Nor a Fellow.

She is part of the teacher exchange programs.

She traded with a lady from Wales.

[Hannah Bell]

168. You don't "trade". You win a Fulbright grant. Then the Fulbright committee sends you to the school

of someone in another country who also won.

You act like teachers just arrange it themselves.

THERE ARE ONLY 120 US RECIPIENTS.



The Fulbright Program is the flagship international exchange program sponsored by the U.S. government designed to increase mutual understanding of the people of the United States and people of other countries. The Fulbright Program provides participants—chosen for their academic merit and leadership potential—with the opportunity to study, teach and conduct research, exchange ideas and contribute to finding solutions to shared international concerns.

Full-time U.S. teachers are eligible to apply for a year-long or semester-long direct exchange of teaching positions with a counterpart in another country teaching the same subject(s) at the same level. Fulbright program staff in the U.S. and abroad match U.S. and overseas candidates in the spring of each year. Fulbright staff then propose matched-exchanges that each candidate and each school administration must approve before the program takes place.

http://www.fulbrightteacherexchange.org/cte.cfm

[lolly]

68. My personal involvement

Several of my kids' former teachers are there.

My youngest had an absolutely wonderful, well-organized, intelligent, and creative teacher for 4th grade. My daughter improved immensely in Science and Math, and she loved school. That teacher got "below average."

In 3rd grade, at the same school, she had a nightmare. Woman insulted the kids constantly. Marked her homework missing and made her stay in from recess and lunch if she missed a question or problem. Called me at home, in front of the class, to tell me that my daughter hadn't finished her homework. In past years, several students have left for private schools rather than stay in this woman's classroom. By the last month of school, I was done with my job and was home, so I kept my daughter home 1 or 2 days a week just to give her a break.

THAT teacher got rated as highly effective.

Looking at the other teachers my kids had--about 18 in all--it looks as if it's been created by some sort of random number generator. I am dead serious--I don't see any connect at all between the effectiveness or quality of the teachers involved and their rankings.

[madfloridian]

69. You point out the dangers with relying just on test data.

So much depends on other factors. The years I had so many problem kids, severe problems....the classes did not score well overall. They just could not. Their understanding of our language was too poor to allow comprehension, and there was no one helping in that area at our school.

The two severely learning disabled could not read enough to do well on a test, and I could not help them. They were in between in a gray area in which they could not be excused from the test.

I could go on, but not necessary. The years I had great classes with few problems, they did well. I was the same teacher and loved them all, but I was not superhuman....and could only take them so far as they could go.

[lolly]

70. Oddly enough, my daughter is a "model" student

Up until 3rd grade, she was every teacher's dream student. Loved school, worked ahead, took great pride in her work, bright, did well on tests.

I think that's why they put her in Ms. Nightmare's class. She already already had a reputation, so they put the "good" kids with her.

She hated school all year--then lucked out and got a wonderful teacher in 4th grade--that teacher is supposedly "below average" in effectiveness.

[msanthrope]

72. Kick.

[Ramulux]

78. WTF is going on with the LA Times

I am having trouble understanding this campaign against tecachers and public schools that they seem to be waging. What the fuck happened to them?

[Hannah Bell]

81. it's not the times by itself. bill gates funded the rand analyst who made up the ratings.

channeled the money through another non-profit.

it's the same ed deformers throwing their weight around.

coordinated staged take-down.

[MrScorpio]

85. So has anti-intellectualism taken hold in the teaching profession?

Just wondering

[msanthrope]

103. A note on the OP Title--this teacher IS NOT a Fulbright Scholar!!!

She was part of their teacher exchange program. She traded with a teacher from Wales.

[JuniperLea]

113. Are you serious?

How do you know this? Got a link? That's pretty disgusting! She should be fired for this stupidity! That reflects badly on other teachers too!

[msanthrope]

117. State Department publishes the Fulbrights every year....

Take a look under CA, Nancy Vinicor, and her grant category....


http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/being/whoare/fulbright-2009-2010-grantees#ca


She's not a Scholar, Fellow, Student. She is a Teacher Exchange.

The misrepresentation of her a "Scholar", or winning a "Scholarship," points up a trend on some of these education threads.

[JuniperLea]

118. Trend...

Spot on.

[msanthrope]

119. Indeed. I read another thread that bemoaned the lack of respect

for teachers....I think it's a shame that teachers on this board suffer from the lack of respect engendered by some of the most prolific "education" posters.

[JuniperLea]

120. Well said...

Ask and ye shall receive... some beg for it.

[Cha]

122. Well said..thank you, msanthrope. nt

[cate94]

121. Fulbright Teacher Exchange

Which is what the teacher in question stated in the article. The Fulbright program fully vets the teachers, she won the opportunity to be part of that exchange.

[Born_A_Truman]

124. Except she wasn't evaluated for 2009-2010 while she was out ...

Did anyone read that? She was a Fulbright teacher 2009-2010...scores used were from 2008-2009.



http://projects.latimes.com/value-added/teacher/nancy-joanne-vinicor/

Nancy Joanne Vinicor
A 5th grade teacher at Clover Avenue Elementary in 2009

These graphs show a teacher's "value-added" rating based on his or her students' progress on the California Standards Tests in math and English. The Times’ analysis used all valid student scores available for this teacher from the 2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years. The value-added scores reflect a teacher's effectiveness at raising standardized test scores and, as such, capture only one aspect of a teacher's work.

[JuniperLea]

129. Interesting how so many teachers missed that...

Sad, really.

[msanthrope]

130. The OP's title is "Fulbright Scholarship."

Those are given to Scholars.

Numerous posters call her a "Fulbright Scholar."

Teachers on exchange get a stipend, and I make no representation as to the rigor of the vetting process, but I think it pretty obvious Ms. Vinicor was not given a reading comprehension test.

[Born_A_Truman]

123. She was out 2009-2010, but evaluated on 2008-2009

So how was she out on Fulbright during the evaluation?

Vinicor's LAUSD teaching history
2002-03 through 2008-09 academic years

Clover Avenue Elementary, 2009 - 2003

[msanthrope]

127. She completely misread the study, and claimed she

was evaluated while out on Fulbright....she wasn't, and a simple reading of the article indicated that.


Up thread, I noted how not a single teacher on this board noticed her mistake---and I also noted how the OP and other posters kept referring to her "Fulbright Scholarship", or that she was a "Fulbright Scholar." She is not--she is in the exchange program.

[DevonRex]

150. Good grief. At the very least the OP misunderstood the facts, which doesn't

represent teachers very well, now does it? The worst part is that the misinformation was posted here as fact and that so many people believed it.

[Hannah Bell]

167. She one of only 120 winners of the Fulbright Grant for Teachers. There are 1100 Fulbright scholar

grants given.

Fulbright scholars = university/college faculty/professionals.
Fulbright teachers = K-12.
Fulbright students = university/college students.

You've spammed the whole thread with your bullshit.


Which Fulbright Grant Is Right For Me?

Fulbright grant categories and programs are listed below. Potential applicants should consult individual country pages for program availability and contact information for complete details about applying and eligibility. Fulbright offers grants for Students, Scholars, Teachers, and Professionals.

Grants for Students

The Fulbright U.S. Student Program offers fellowships for U.S. graduating seniors, graduate students, young professionals and artists to study abroad for one academic year. The Program also includes an English Teaching Assistant component.

The Fulbright Foreign Student Program enables graduate students, young professionals and artists from abroad to conduct research and study in the United States. Some scholarships are renewed after the initial year of study.

The Fulbright Foreign Language Teaching Assistant Program provides opportunities for young English teachers from overseas to refine their teaching skills and broaden their knowledge of American culture and society while strengthening the instruction of foreign languages at colleges and universities in the United States.
Website: http://www.flta.fulbrightonline.org/home.html

The International Fulbright Science and Technology Award is a new, internationally competed award for doctoral study at leading U.S. institutions in science, technology, and engineering.
Website: http://scienceandtech.fulbrightonline.org/

The Fulbright-mtvU Fellowships award up to 4 U.S. students the opportunity to study the power of music as a cultural force abroad. Fellows conduct research for one academic year on projects of their own design about a chosen musical aspect. They share their experiences during their Fulbright year via video reports, blogs and podcasts. Website: http://us.fulbrightonline.org/types_mtvU.html

Grants for Scholars

The Fulbright U.S. Scholar Program sends American scholars and professionals abroad to lecture and/or conduct research for up to a year.

The Fulbright Specialists Program sends U.S. faculty and professionals to serve as expert consultants on curriculum, faculty development, institutional planning, and related subjects at overseas academic institutions for a period of 2 to 6 weeks.
Website: http://www.cies.org/specialists

The Fulbright Visiting Scholar Program and Fulbright Scholar-in-Residence Program bring foreign scholars to lecture and/or conduct post-doctoral research for up to a year at U.S. colleges and universities.

Grants for Teachers

The Fulbright Teacher Exchange Program supports one-to-one exchanges of teachers from K-12 schools and a small number of post-secondary institutions.
Website: http://www.fulbrightteacherexchange.org/

Grants for Professionals

The Hubert H. Humphrey Program brings outstanding mid-career professionals from the developing world and societies in transition to the United States for one year. Fellows participate in a non-degree program of academic study and gain professional experience.
Website: http://www.humphreyfellowship.org/.

The Fulbright U.S. Scholar Program sends American scholars and professionals abroad to lecture and/or conduct research for up to a year.

The Fulbright Specialists Program sends U.S. faculty and professionals to serve as expert consultants on curriculum, faculty development, institutional planning, and related subjects at overseas academic institutions for a period of 2 to 6 weeks.
Website: http://www.cies.org/specialists

The Fulbright U.S. Student Program offers fellowships for U.S. graduating seniors, graduate students, young professionals and artists to study abroad for one academic year. The Program also includes an English Teaching Assistant component.

The Fulbright Foreign Student Program enables graduate students, young professionals and artists from abroad to conduct research and study in the United States. Some scholarships are renewed after the initial year of study.

Note: Fulbright Program grants for U.S. and non-U.S. citizens are not for the principal purpose of attending conferences, completing doctoral dissertations, travel and consultation at multiple institutions, or clinical medical research involving patient contact.

[sabrina 1]

125. She should sue them. Her reputation has been smeared

in their rush to slime all teachers. I hope she does so.

Too late to rec, but thank you for all you do to keep people informed about this issue.

[Born_A_Truman]

126. Sue for what???

She was NOT out of the country when evaluated for 2008-2009.

[sabrina 1]

132. Her record as a teacher was distorted. And she is not the only

one. I believe there will be many lawsuits if this witchhunting of teachers continues. Test scores tell you very little about a teacher's performance. And most teachers did not sign up for this job knowing that they would be required to forget everything they knew about their profession and become testing machines.

This system WILL eventually be ended and those educators who from the beginning have opposed it as it is a failure as far as education students. It would be hard to find a worse educational system anywhere. And it is a shame that a democratic administration, after promising to do the exact opposite, has become the worst administration so far in terms of attacking teachers.

I think a nationwide strike is what is needed now. Most of the good teachers I know, including me, left the profession after it became obvious that Bush's NCLB was designed to produce an unthinking, uneducated population geared only to passing tests. It is impossible to educate students under this system. No wonder we are so behind the rest of the world.

[Born_A_Truman]

134. My husband is teaching his students every day ...

He's never said it is impossible.

[sabrina 1]

136. Of course it's possible to teach students every day. I didn't say

it wasn't, I said it is impossible to educate them. Two entirely different things.

[Born_A_Truman]

139. His students are being educated ...

Sheesh! Are you really saying that teachers cannot educate students now?

[msanthrope]

135. Suing would only draw more attention to her stupidity......

Although I admit that I would LOVE to read the complaint.

[sabrina 1]

137. A class action suit is what I hope will result from this.

Distorting records is actionable. The news media clearly have no clue as to what is involved in the field of education. A suit like that would help educate the public as to why this whole withchhumt of teachers has as much credibility as Glen Beck's claim to be interested in 'honor'. You yourself could use some education on the subject from what I can determine by your comments here.

[msanthrope]

141. The only CA lawyer stupid enough to take this proposed class action is Orly Taitz. n/t

[Born_A_Truman]

131. When are you going to edit your OP?

It has been repeatedly shown that this teacher was NOT evaluated while she was a Fulbright teacher (2009-2010), she was not out of the country during the evaluated years.

[Cha]

133. Excellent question, Truman...why wouldn't

the OP want to? :shrug: get the facts right, ya know..very important in teaching.

[Whisp]

147. you would think....

but no, some people just cannot be wrong, ever. Agenda over everything.
Suffering above all.

[Hannah Bell]

169. like the charter school brigade has *ever* copped to the failure of *their* hobbyhorse

& the ongoing fraud involved.

sickening.

[Whisp]

148. too late to unrec for misleading information in OP. Reader beware.

[DevonRex]

149. 1. She didn't have a Fullbright Scholarship. 2. She wasn't evaluated for the year she was out of

the country, but for the prior year.

And you're a teacher complaining about the need for teacher evaluations? Reading comprehension is a MUST for teachers, it would seem to me. And writing about what you read is a very, very close second to that. You've failed at both since the key facts you reported are wrong.

[Hannah Bell]

170. blahblahblahblahblah. she got a Fulbright Teachers grant.

Which Fulbright Grant Is Right For Me?

Fulbright grant categories and programs are listed below... Fulbright offers grants for Students, Scholars, Teachers, and Professionals.

http://fulbright.state.gov/fulbright/about/whichgrant


Fulbright scholars = university
Fulbright teachers = K-12

[JCMach1]

173. The war on education- if allowed to continue- leads to only one place- Everyone paying

out of pocket for schools.

It is the privatization of our school system. Yes, there would be some public schools left, but only for the poorest of the poor.

Thanks politicians (Repugs and Dems) for bringing us the same crappy system that leaves countries like Pakistan in the state they are in...

[rpannier]

180. My response to the evaluation system

After seeing the Nancv Vinicor story, it's pretty obvious to anyone except the times and duncan that it sux.

This has proven to be another lazy attempt by the press to create a newsstory finding fault with others professions.

There's a reason why people hold nothing but contempt for the press and this is just one more example.

**********************
We'll see if it gets printed