Wow-DUers have you read Jim Webb's Wall Street Journal Op Ed

[malaise]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703724104575379630952309408.html
<snip>
In 1938, President Franklin Roosevelt created a national commission to study what he termed "the long and ironic history of the despoiling of this truly American section." At that time, most industries in the South were owned by companies outside the region. Of the South's 1.8 million sharecroppers, 1.2 million were white (a mirror of the population, which was 71% white). The illiteracy rate was five times that of the North-Central states and more than twice that of New England and the Middle Atlantic (despite the waves of European immigrants then flowing to those regions). The total endowments of all the colleges and universities in the South were less than the endowments of Harvard and Yale alone. The average schoolchild in the South had $25 a year spent on his or her education, compared to $141 for children in New York.

Generations of such deficiencies do not disappear overnight, and they affect the momentum of a culture. In 1974, a National Opinion Research Center (NORC) study of white ethnic groups showed that white Baptists nationwide averaged only 10.7 years of education, a level almost identical to blacks' average of 10.6 years, and well below that of most other white groups. A recent NORC Social Survey of white adults born after World War II showed that in the years 1980-2000, only 18.4% of white Baptists and 21.8% of Irish Protestants—the principal ethnic group that settled the South—had obtained college degrees, compared to a national average of 30.1%, a Jewish average of 73.3%, and an average among those of Chinese and Indian descent of 61.9%.
-------------
Very interesting - I'm not sure he's aware of it but this is a discussion on class.

[notesdev]

1. I posted this this morning

and it got unrecced into oblivion

[malaise]

2. Wow - why?

The truth is that he facilitates a good discussion. When I think of the Sherrods and the Spooners working to help one another, the truth is that the day poor whites and poor blacks understand the level of exploitation meted out to both of them is the day the ruling class will be really afraid.

I find this a very interesting article.

It may be difficult for some Afro-Americans to entertain the idea that there is no white privilege because that is ridiculous. In reality if a white person escapes his poverty he is accepted in a way that professional Afro-Americans rarely are in some places but the point Webb is making here speaks to genuine poor white people who have also been exploited by the elites. He's right in an economic and opportunity sense there really is no privilege for millions of black and white poor people in America.

add

[Hydra]

3. It's true

Divide and conquer is so important, because if people knew how badly they were being screwed over, and how no one is safe, we might have real changes.

Then again, if such a momentous event were to occur, there is an equal chance that we wouldn't see the greater human community after all.

[malaise]

5. I think it's also true that the civil rights benefits for Afro-Americans

was based on a genuine understanding of the exploitation of Afro-Americans during slavery, Jim Crow etc. and as poor and exploited as whites were, they did have an advantage, but the reality is that poor exploited whites were also way behind other whites in several other parts of the US.
Divide and rule has not worked.

[Hydra]

8. Emancipation was a grand irony

And like so many other things, ideas flow from the first realization.

Realization at the time: Wage slavery is cheaper and more efficient than actual slavery.

Result: You are free enough to go to work and fight your fellow worker to do so. You are also free to go into debt.

[patrice]

12. If you can't compete with the rich, you are free to take the jobs that the rich create

[Hydra]

16. True enough

If you can't own your own congresscritter(s), that's just Darwin at work. You failed, enjoy whatever scraps you find.

[Gaedel]

53. Freedom from chattel slavery........

means you have the choice between working or starving.

[Uzybone]

79. WOW

[Uzybone]

80. WOW

[Recursion]

95. Wage slavery outsources the maintenance of the slave to the slave himself

Interesting point.

[Hydra]

101. It's a scary idea

But it was one I found in my Caribbean history class. They fought tooth and nail to keep the slavery system in place, but once it disappeared, the plantation owners found out something surprising- it was cheaper, and if the person didn't work, they didn't have to whip them, they could just fire them and get someone else.

Perhaps the grandest irony is that in a slavery situation, each slave is purchased, and thus the owner has an vested interest in keeping them alive. Not so in wage slavery.

[The Wizard]

106. British philosopher Thomas Carlyle

said he couldn't understand the American Civil War. The South wanted to own their slaves, and the North wanted to rent them by the hour.

[Hydra]

121. That's what I don't get either

I don't support either system, so I don't see how the system of the North(including child labor) was so much better than the system of the South.

Maybe one of these days we'll get over our need to exploit, and learn to cooperate. Not holding my breath though.

[Hannah Bell]

114. other part of that is: slavery typically found where population is relatively sparse; slaves

are acquired by conquest/differential power & imported.

wage slavery typically found where populations are more dense. people are dispossed of property/means of production by force or subterfuge so that the only avenue they have left is to work for owners.

where there's some kind of open territory/resources, people are more likely to run off & try to make a go on their own if they don't like who they're working for or what they're doing.

Thus the necessity of enslaving people when there's open land/resources close by people might get a living from.

[Hydra]

120. That's an interesting point

And certainly true in the Caribbean. They killed off the natives, so had to bring more in.

Once they were there, they were a captive audience.

[notesdev]

22. I could only guess

My guess would be that some people have been beating the race drum for so long they can't even conceive of a truly post-racial society, and therefore have nothing but hate towards those genuinely working and hoping to see us get there.

[bvar22]

24. The day the "Middle Class" (Democrats & Republicans) understand...

...that they have more in common with "poor whites and poor blacks" than they do with the leadership of either Political Party is the day that something will "CHANGE". Our destiny is intertwined.

"When we all do better,
we ALL do better."

--- Paul Wellstone

[AzDar]

51. If I could recommend your post, I would.

:thumbsup:

[Uncle Joe]

56. That's why people like Glenn Beck are given so much voice and power.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=487358&mesg_id=488495

[bobburgster]

99. Good post!

Couldn't agree more!

[Butch350]

125. HERE, HERE!!

Gospel Baby!

[LatteLibertine]

139. Been saying this a long time

When the poor and middle class align shoulder to shoulder the greedy nonsense of the most wealthy minority is done.

[tiny elvis]

83. michael parenti: race, gender and class struggle

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4902958711956434701#
warning: parenti is a commie

[Alcibiades]

88. You could not be more wrong about what Webb is up to here

It's a dog whistle article: you don't see how he's trying to go to the right of the Republicans on race, but that's what he's doing. This is a George Wallace move.

"the supposed monolith of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant dominance served as the whipping post for almost every debate about power and status in America."

Bet you didn't even see that line about whites being whipped, did you? But the people he wanted to see it saw it, and got it. He just won the KKK vote in Virginia.

[socialist_n_TN]

108. It took very little time as a politically aware adult............

from the south to see that I had more in common with my black coworker in industry than with my white bosses. Since then I look at EVERYTHING through the prism of economic class. The gay guy or girl who works has more in common with the homophobic coworker than s/he does with the gay boss. Everything else is window dressing compared to class. Everybody just has to realize it.

[patrice]

4. Yeah, the South got raped by Re-construction, didn't it? Has it ever recovered?

[Hekate]

28. That is not Webb's point of view at all. Look up his two books, or at least read reviews of them.

My response to the OP has the titles.

Hekate

[ProSense]

6. Webb Calls For White Americans To End ‘Government Directed Diversity Programs’

Webb Calls For White Americans To End ‘Government Directed Diversity Programs’

Our guest blogger is Sam Fulwood III, a Senior Fellow with the Center for American Progress Action Fund.

Maybe Sen. James Webb, the Democratic senator from Virginia, didn’t understand that what he was saying made him sound like a mossback from the last century. In a bizarre and unfortunate opinion article published in Friday’s Wall Street Journal. I’m being charitable because surely the Democratic senator from Virginia didn’t mean to sound as bigoted as the article makes him seem. No, surely he wasn’t arguing that white Americans suffer from federal policies that favor everyone but themselves.

“Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs,” Webb wrote, arguing for a retreat from those unspecified federal programs. “The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years.”

Beyond being grossly ignorant about the current effects of what he calls “present-day diversity programs,” Webb is engaging in reckless racial inversion. While he carefully exculpates black Americans, whom he describes as “still in need,” Webb makes a scurrilous case that white Americans – southerners and Baptists, in particular – are being harmed by nonwhite groups who receive “special consideration in a wide variety of areas including business startups, academic admissions, job promotions and lucrative government contracts.” His solution is a call for white people to unite and end “government directed diversity programs.”

Clearly, Webb is unaware that affirmative actions programs have been effectively dismantled by the Supreme Court. But worse, he’s oblivious to the fact that his screed treads dangerously close to the discredited divide-and-conqueror tactics of the Southern strategy. In this new formation, Webb pits the sweeping and swelling segments of America’s immigrant population against native-born Americans with the aim of rallying the nation’s “white cultures.”

If he thinks this is a necessary step toward racial healing, especially after the week the nation’s just had, then he’s even more misguided than his article reveals. Somebody, perhaps one of his congressional colleagues, needs to tell Sen.Webb to get his head out of the last, sad epoch of covert racist talk and join the rest of America in the 21st century.

More discussion

[malaise]

7. Webb comes from a poor white state

Clearly there are errors re current programs but I find this a very interesting op ed.

[ProSense]

10. "Webb comes from a poor white state"? n/t

[JDPriestly]

127. Webb comes from a state with a history of slavery and segregation.

Segregation was much, much uglier than Yankees could ever imagine. I, as a white person living in the south, felt sad, degraded and angry at the Jim Crow signs, at the separate facilities, at the separate schools, at being deprived of the beauty of African-American culture -- the music, the dancing -- the social support in those communities.

Early Sunday morning, before going to church, I used to listen to the services broadcast on WMOZ -- "the Black spot on your dial." I loved what I heard. It woke my ears up to a music and a culture that was so much richer than the white culture in which I lived.

There is a reason for the programs that Webb is dissing. I know that reason deep in my heart.

[Syrinx]

15. Virginia isn't a poor state

And it's about 21% African-American.

[notesdev]

23. Yup, it's less white than average too

Just more knee-jerk stereotypes being thrown at the true heirs of the MLK legacy.

[Orsino]

93. Webb is a fucking panderer here.

He's not that deluded, therefore he is a liar and a discredit to our party.

[Recursion]

97. I come from Mississippi. That is the actual "poor white south"

We listen patiently and not when Virginians describe themselves as "southerners", and then we roll our eyes when they turn around.

[ecstatic]

61. +1 nt

[many a good man]

9. Affirmative Action for Southern Baptists!

Generations of such deficiencies do not disappear overnight, and they affect the momentum of a culture.

Problem is they cling to racial division to salve their own inferiority, which prevents class consciousness and solidarity, which is the only thing that can better their condition.

[patrice]

14. very true

[Jester Messiah]

75. I affirm that they can smoke my atheist pole

and sing kum-bah-yah while they do it.

[HillWilliam]

129. An anatomical impossibility

but I'd pay to see them try :rofl:

[socialist_n_TN]

111. BINGO! No more calls we have a winner

That's the GENERAL attitude of most poor Southern white males. It IS unfortunate, but there IS a strain of class conciousness that can get to the Southern white male. It's all in framing the issue. They are NOT happy with rich people and the way they fuck them over, but THAT'S got to be the main thing that's brought across in talking to these folks. The rare occasion that I get to talk about this, they USUALLY see the comparison with a poor person of EITHER color with a rich guy. As I said, it's just got to be framed that way.

[patrice]

11. He's saying Shirley Sherrod was right; economic class is THE primary determiner of rights. nt

[malaise]

17. That is the context of his op ed

I understand what he is trying to say and it is true he should have spent more time checking the accuracy of some of what he said but I share his belief that the time has come for a discussion on class. Pitting blacks and whites against each other for what ever reasons has not solved anything.

[ProSense]

18. That is not what he's saying

If that was what he was saying he'd address the fact that wealth also brings privilege, in education, jobs, etc. Look at the Bush family.

He's arguing for the dismantling of programs for the disadvantaged and oppressed based on race because white people are being put at a disadvantage.

That's utter bullshit.

[malaise]

19. He really cannot be arguing to get rid of programs

that don't exist. I don't think he writes very well and he ought to have spent more time on this but I think that the Sherrod madness is the context for his Op Ed.

[ProSense]

21. His argument is bogus, and

he seems to believe that any attempt at diversity is unfair to whites.

As far as Sherrod, his commentary is an odd takeaway from the incident.

It's inconceivable that he strung all those flawed assumptions together without thinking it through, which is why his argument is bizarre.

[RainDog]

25. you apparently do not understand his argument

The old South was a three-tiered society, with blacks and hard-put whites both dominated by white elites who manipulated racial tensions in order to retain power. At the height of slavery, in 1860, less than 5% of whites in the South owned slaves. The eminent black historian John Hope Franklin wrote that "fully three-fourths of the white people in the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery."

Do you dispute this?

His argument is a populist one - that looks at issues of poverty and an unequal playing field from the basis of class rather than race. Honestly if the south had better-educated whites, the south would have less racism. The south would have fewer republicans and fewer adherents of the religious right, as well - because a higher level of education correlates with a lower level of religious fervor.

His op-ed specifically notes that attempts at diversity that have been and are targeted to African-Americans whose histories are bound up in the story of slavery and race hatred in this nation are valid.

The injustices endured by black Americans at the hands of their own government have no parallel in our history, not only during the period of slavery but also in the Jim Crow era that followed. But the extrapolation of this logic to all "people of color"—especially since 1965, when new immigration laws dramatically altered the demographic makeup of the U.S.—moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites. It has also lessened the focus on assisting African-Americans, who despite a veneer of successful people at the very top still experience high rates of poverty, drug abuse, incarceration and family breakup.

he also notes that programs to specifically help African-Americans still in need - his "however" is about providing assistance to those who do not qualify for needs-based help.

since you're part of the "pragmatic" wing of DU, surely you can appreciate Webb making an argument that promotes the view of the Democratic party as economic populists - for whites as well as blacks, right?

as far as I'm concerned - racism impacts both wealthy and poor blacks - tho, on average, the effects are worse for poor blacks - but, again, education for poorer whites helps to eliminate racist belief systems.

I don't think he's trying to throw African-Americans under the bus. He's trying to get poor African-Americans and poor whites on the same bus.

[ProSense]

27. It's a bogus argument

and it has nothing to do with being a populist.

The old South was a three-tiered society, with blacks and hard-put whites both dominated by white elites who manipulated racial tensions in order to retain power. At the height of slavery, in 1860, less than 5% of whites in the South owned slaves. The eminent black historian John Hope Franklin wrote that "fully three-fourths of the white people in the South had neither slaves nor an immediate economic interest in the maintenance of slavery."

Do you dispute this?

What the hell does that have to do with the price of eggs? Is the fact that most people weren't slave owners suppose to diminish the facts of slavery?

His argument is a populist one - that looks at issues of poverty and an unequal playing field from the basis of class rather than race. Honestly if the south had better-educated whites, the south would have less racism. The south would have fewer republicans and fewer adherents of the religious right, as well - because a higher level of education correlates with a lower level of religious fervor.

His argument is teabagger racist. If? Would the rich slave owners have been less racists? What if the slaves had been better educated?

"as far as I'm concerned - racism impacts both wealthy and poor blacks - tho, on average, the effects are worse for poor blacks - but, again, education for poorer whites helps to eliminate racist belief systems. "

If he was trying to educate poor whites, he did a lousy job. Seriously, claiming that diversity puts whites at a disadvantage is ridiculous.

I mean, he's going so far as to declare that Africans new to this country weren't discriminated against by the government. It's as if he's equating discrimination to something only experienced by blacks born in this country. Who the hell is he kidding?

[RainDog]

30. you also do not seem to understand my post

the point is the poor whites were not the beneficiaries of slavery. If I repeat this in various ways over and over (including quotes from his article) will you be able to acknowledge this truth?

CLASS-based preferential laws, not race, is the biggest problem in American society.

Study after study demonstrate that education reduces prejudice - among those who are inclined to think that affirmative action, for instance, is unfair. With education, they can come to a point that they understand the insidiousness of racism in a society.

To claim that acknowledging class-based - and therefore populist arguments (b/c this view takes economic elitists to task... how would you define populism otherwise?) diminishes the issue of slavery is really, really a stupid statement - or attempt at an argument from you - and it's one that Webb doesn't make - so you are making up a disagreement.

Your argument that his statement (and mine) about ways to ameliorate racism is a populist teabagger argument goes against every study done about the ways in which societies become more liberal. education is the means. I'm talking about the present day - not the 1800s - tho, even then education would have helped to make whites less racist - every culture has groups that are marginalized - how to overcome this view that this marginalization is somehow the fault of the group that experiences this prejudice is one of the things Webb's op-ed gets to in a round about way - he's not preaching to liberals in a WSJ op-ed - you know, he's doing that pragmatic thing and going after white voters via what they view as their interests - but in a way that does not deny a continuing problem with poverty and racism among African-Americans.

you do know that whites make up a huge number of the population on welfare, right? the stereotype of who is on welfare is a racist one - the truth is more of a class issue - who has the resources available via family wealth, etc. to deal with economic hardship.

He didn't make the argument that diversity puts whites at a disadvantage. this is a straw man argument from you. He said that programs geared ONLY toward people of color fail to address the issues of poverty among whites in the population as well.

His argument is that Africans that come to this country now do not deserve preferential treatment over whites who have been locked into cycles of poverty - especially when those Africans, or Asians (he doesn't limit this to Africans, even tho you do) are from the upper classes of the societies from which they came.

He's arguing for "needs-based" programs for people in poverty. This is a class-based view of the issue - that blacks and whites in poverty SHARE far more experiences in American life in terms of lack of health care, educational opportunities, job options - than not. It's more like the army's view of race - color isn't the issue - training is. The army was one of the earliest venues in American society that helped to break down race barriers.

Do you think that all whites are better off than all blacks? If not, then why is an argument for need-based programs a bad thing? Do you think that only blacks deal with issues of poverty? If not, why shouldn't programs address those issues for everyone?

[ProSense]

38. "CLASS-based preferential laws, not race, is the biggest problem in American society."

What does this have to do with Webb's post? Seriously? People are adding their own meaning to an article titled:

Diversity and the Myth of White Privilege
America still owes a debt to its black citizens, but government programs to help all 'people of color' are unfair. They should end.

The entire article is about race and attempts to justify his argument that whites are being discriminated against.

Generations of such deficiencies do not disappear overnight, and they affect the momentum of a culture. In 1974, a National Opinion Research Center (NORC) study of white ethnic groups showed that white Baptists nationwide averaged only 10.7 years of education, a level almost identical to blacks' average of 10.6 years, and well below that of most other white groups. A recent NORC Social Survey of white adults born after World War II showed that in the years 1980-2000, only 18.4% of white Baptists and 21.8% of Irish Protestants—the principal ethnic group that settled the South—had obtained college degrees, compared to a national average of 30.1%, a Jewish average of 73.3%, and an average among those of Chinese and Indian descent of 61.9%.

Policy makers ignored such disparities within America's white cultures when, in advancing minority diversity programs, they treated whites as a fungible monolith. Also lost on these policy makers were the differences in economic and educational attainment among nonwhite cultures. Thus nonwhite groups received special consideration in a wide variety of areas including business startups, academic admissions, job promotions and lucrative government contracts.

So programs like Welfare/foodstamps, financial aid, Medicaid, etc. discrimate against whites?

His article is bullshit. He's talking Affirmative Action, which was designed to address institutionalized discrimination. That affects access to opportunity. Institutionalized discrimination led to things like redlining. If Webb wanted to talk about aid, he didn't need to bury so deep in a jingoistic and xenophobic commentary.

[Sparkly]

54. The answer to your question is right there in what you quoted.

"So programs like Welfare/foodstamps, financial aid, Medicaid, etc. discrimate against whites?"

As you quoted, he wrote:
"Also lost on these policy makers were the differences in economic and educational attainment among nonwhite cultures. Thus nonwhite groups received special consideration in a wide variety of areas including business startups, academic admissions, job promotions and lucrative government contracts."

So no, it is not about programs that ARE linked with economic need.

[ProSense]

78. That's rich

Do you really believe that changes the fact that a job, small business loan or promotion for a black person doesn't put blacks at an advantage over whites? That the government is showering minorities with disproportionately more lucrative contracts than whites?

Given reality, this debate is preposterous.

Talk class discrimination, but don't frame it as affecting whites only or even poor whites.

[Recursion]

100. Well...

That the government is showering minorities with disproportionately more lucrative contracts than whites?


One of the .coms I was at was an 8(a) and got about $3-4 million a year in nominal Federal contract work (I say nominal because about 75% of it passed through to the "sub", who was de facto the prime, but that still comes out to $750k - $1M a year just because of who owned the company). Oddly enough, this was in Virginia. No idea how the 8(a) thing works Outside the Beltway, but then again Inside the Beltway is what Webb knows.

[ProSense]

113. Statistics

There are about 29.6 million small businesses in this country generating about $9 trillion in revenues. Only 14 percent are minority owned and only 1.4 million (5 percent) of them are black owned. Another 1.7 million (6.5 percent) are Hispanic owned. They (all minority owned businesses) account for $694 billion or 7.7 percent of the overall revenues.

I want anyone to explain how whites are disadvantaged.

[Sparkly]

107. I don't know what you're talking about.

I read your post three times, and don't know what point you're trying to make. :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

144. in 1970, about 30% of blacks were poor. Today, about 30% of blacks are poor.

affirmative action hasn't done much except help the old black bourgeoisie move into the mainstream with their white peers.

[alarimer]

133. Most people on welfare are actually white, numerically speaking.

I don't know about the rest. I suspect that white people in general have no trouble getting job promotions either. Employers still discriminate; there have been any number of studies that show this. Plus minorities are at less than parity with whites in wages.

[Sparkly]

142. Absolutely agree, but that's not what the Op-Ed is about. nt

[malaise]

42. Excellent post

Adds to the discussion big time. :hi:

[patrice]

49. "...an argument for need-based programs is a bad thing" because it is WAAAAAY more Dangerous! nt

[kristopher]

84. Outstanding summary - thanks. nt

[ProSense]

90. "He didn't make the argument that diversity puts whites at a disadvantage.

...this is a straw man argument from you. He said that programs geared ONLY toward people of color fail to address the issues of poverty among whites in the population as well."

You didn't read the article, did you?

Webb:

"After a full generation of such debate, WASP elites have fallen by the wayside and a plethora of government-enforced diversity policies have marginalized many white workers. "

Really Wasp elites are suffering?

[Recursion]

102. At least inside the beltway, white small business owners do have a disadvantage

Because they're not in that magical list of 8(a)'s that the CSC's and Boeing's and IBM's of the world look through to find a company to launder their contracts through. That hasn't been my experience outside the beltway, though.

[Hannah Bell]

148. he didn't say wasp elites are suffering. he said they've fallen by the wayside, & the meaning is

wasps aren't any longer the sole residents of the top tiers of the class structure (not that they ever were, actually, but that's a different story).

it's fine if you want to take issue with the op, i do myself, but please stop making false attributions. the writer said nothing like "wasp elites are suffering".

[malaise]

36. There was a time when there was a lot of inter-marriage among

the poor. Someone used race to divide and conquer.

[malaise]

35. I disagree - he's also pointing out that there is also

diversity among whites.
You are right - there are errors here but his Op Ed does facilitate a discussion on class exploitation.

[ProSense]

40. "You are right - there are errors here but his Op Ed does facilitate a discussion"

His article is bogus.

[patrice]

43. I don't get that he is calling for dismanteling them, but, rather, for expanding their criteria so

that race is not the sole determiner, saying in effect, "all other factors being 'equal' race should not be the determining factor of X. Social-economic class should be the determining factor of X."

I don't think a person has to believe that there is no such thing as "white privilege" to think that wealth is a stronger determiner of opportunities.

Of course! there ARE numerous instances in which being White resulted in privilege X, but just because those things happened does not mean that, had those same instances ALSO included some richer non-White option(s), X would STILL have gone to the White. Same situation, all factors equal, but include White and wealthy non-White, and the decision COULD and probably often does go to the candidate with the "right" social-Economic background, non-White or not. Are people really trying to say that doesn't happen?

That is not to say that the other doesn't happen either: Same situation, all factors equal, include White and wealthy non-White, and the decision still goes to the White.

Simply put, race discrimination is not the only kind of discrimination that happens, nor is it necessarily the stronger type of discrimination. I'm sure both discriminatory conditions happen, so the question is which happens more often, which is more oppressive, and I'd bet, with social economic class being a more widely distributed trait than race, we might find that wealth is more oppressive than race when it comes to human and civil rights. And, even **IF** that IS true, it does not follow that programs protecting citizens from race-based discrimination should be dismantled.

[ecstatic]

60. In that case, both Sherrod and Webb are wrong. Danny Glover can't even

catch a cab in NY and he's rich!

[dsc]

130. Glover can't get a cab in NY because the cabbie is afraid that Mel Gibson is lurking in the bushes

:sarcasm:

[phasma ex machina]

13. The Southern Diaspora: How the Great Migrations of Black and White Southerners Transformed America

Henry Ford’s massive Willow Run B-24 bomber plant at Ypsilanti, Michigan, hired thousands of southern migrants during World War II, mostly whites. Ford had taken the lead in hiring black workers in the 1910s and 1920s, but changed course in the early 1940s after black workers joined the United Auto Workers union. (Walter P. Reuther Library, Wayne State University )

(link)

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. This reminds me of a song by Dylan

Only A Pawn In Their Game

A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers’ blood
A finger fired the trigger to his name
A handle hid out in the dark
A hand set the spark
Two eyes took the aim
Behind a man’s brain
But he can’t be blamed
He’s only a pawn in their game

A South politician preaches to the poor white man
“You got more than the blacks, don’t complain.
You’re better than them, you been born with white skin,” they explain.
And the Negro’s name
Is used it is plain
For the politician’s gain
As he rises to fame
And the poor white remains
On the caboose of the train
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid
And the marshals and cops get the same
But the poor white man’s used in the hands of them all like a tool
He’s taught in his school
From the start by the rule
That the laws are with him
To protect his white skin
To keep up his hate
So he never thinks straight
’Bout the shape that he’s in
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game

From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks
And the hoofbeats pound in his brain
And he’s taught how to walk in a pack
Shoot in the back
With his fist in a clinch
To hang and to lynch
To hide ’neath the hood
To kill with no pain
Like a dog on a chain
He ain’t got no name
But it ain’t him to blame
He’s only a pawn in their game.

Today, Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught
They lowered him down as a king
But when the shadowy sun sets on the one
That fired the gun
He’ll see by his grave
On the stone that remains
Carved next to his name
His epitaph plain:
Only a pawn in their game

Copyright © 1963, 1964 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1991, 1996 by Special Rider Music

[Hekate]

26. Jim Webb is VERY aware that "this is a discussion of class." When I heard his interview on NPR...

... several years ago on the publication of his new book, I was blown away by the man's intelligence and his in-depth knowledge of the social history of the South. He explained things I literally had had no clue about.

As many here know, I grew up in a state as far away from the South as it is possible to be, in a very different culture. Listening to Webb made me understand for the first time just how very much I had to learn about that region, particularly about the Scots-Irish.

His two nonfiction books have been on my "I Really Must Read These Some Day" list ever since:
"A Time to Fight: Reclaiming a Fair and Just America"
"Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America"

Although I haven't read Webb's books yet, I did stumble upon Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers," and the lengthy section on the settlement of Appalachia by the Scots-Irish was very enlightening for me. Gladwell looks at the heritability of culture as well as social class.

Malaise, thanks for pointing out this Op-Ed by Webb.

Hekate

[ProSense]

29. This is intelligence?

Those who came to this country in recent decades from Asia, Latin America and Africa did not suffer discrimination from our government, and in fact have frequently been the beneficiaries of special government programs. The same cannot be said of many hard-working white Americans, including those whose roots in America go back more than 200 years.

Really? Racists or people who would discriminate care about the distinction between an African American and an African? And Africans new to this country weren't subjected to past discrimination at the hand of our government so that means they'll never, will never experience institutional discrimination?

[RainDog]

31. where is your pragmatism?

he's calling for programs that include whites with long histories of poverty.

where is your "bi-partisanship?"

can democrats win without white votes?

where is your long view - the three-dimensional chess of triangulation?

if you suddenly feel something isn't "about you" - do you suddenly think it's unwise to entertain the idea that someone other than you might have a history of disenfranchisement?

can there only be one sort of "victim" of America's corporate favoritism? are you trying to deny that there are others, not just African-Americans, who have suffered under the hands of aristocratic privilege?

[ProSense]

34. "can democrats win without white votes? "

By blowing dog whistles at racists?

It's interesting that Webb can make the argument that the military is being unfairly treated to justify his opposition to DADT and now is using the argument that whites are being unfairly treated to justify this divisive bullshit.

[patrice]

46. Thank You! Can people really claim that Class discrimination doesn't happen? Please see

my post above.

[Hekate]

32. He didn't say "never, ever." He is trying to get at issues of economic class...

AFAIK, one way to keep poor people in their places is to divide them along color lines (or religion, or whatever) and keep preaching that divisiveness. Make sure they keep scrambling for the same pool of crummy jobs, and make sure they never unionize. Never fail to tell them that life is a zero-sum game -- that whatever is given to one group is taken away from the other.

IIRC, Webb is laying out a case for giving aid to people based on income, without regard to color. I believe the University of California wanted to do that after my idiot fellow Californians passed the anti-affirmative action measure -- UC administration still wants to achieve diversity in the 9 campuses, and this would be one way to achieve it, because statistically many of the economically disadvantaged are still people of color.

Such a policy would have the benefit of bringing in lower class white students as well. As it stands now, a fairly robust African American middle class is sending its kids off to college, and getting the same "points" as their parents did back in the day, competing for slots with other African American students who really are disadvantaged. The children of Asian-Indian parents who came here as academics or computer whizzes are likewise not disadvantaged in the traditional sense.

Maybe, like immigration policy and border control, it's time to rethink the problem, without conceding that what we want is social justice -- for all.

Hekate

[ProSense]

33. Oh please

"Webb is laying out a case for giving aid to people based on income, without regard to color."

Affirmative action isn't about aid. Medicaid isn't an Affirmative Action program.

All these rationalizations about what Webb meant mean nothing when he specifically makes the case that whites are being unfairly discriminated against.

[malaise]

39. Newcomers may well experience institutional racism

but Webb's point is that poor whites have also been experiencing institutional discrimination for a very long time. If newly arrived people regardless of race are able to access benefits that were established to facilitate equity among those who were there for centuries before they arrived, don't you expect those who are still living in poverty to resent that?

Aren't we all pissed at the gazillions being spent in Iraq and Afghanistan when there is mass poverty right in the US?

change word

[ProSense]

41. "Webb's point...poor whites have also been experiencing institutional racism for a very long time."

Oh, poor white people, suffering at the hand of a government that unfairly helps minorities.

Good grief.

[malaise]

44. That is not what he is saying

and note I changed racism to discrimination. The system has exploited lots of people and not only Afro-Americans.

[ProSense]

45. "The system has exploited lots of people and not only Afro-Americans."

That the system has exploited a lot of people has nothing to do with the bullshit Webb wrote.

His article is the most divisive tripe I've read in a long time: Oh btw, white people, the government is favoring minorities and immigrants over you.

He should apologize for this shit.

[patrice]

47. So, are you saying this DOES NOT happen? or that it DOES NOT MATTER? And if you are

saying the latter, then whatever basis there is to claim a RIGHT that such things should not happen is shot all to hell, because you ARE saying that it only matters when it happens to persons of certain races, i.e. persons of certain races have a privilege that their injustices matter more than the injustices of others. You can substitute Black or White for the word "race" in the preceding AND THE LOGIC IS THE SAME, i.e. PRIVILEGE.

[ProSense]

50. That's the entire problem with basing this debate on Webb's article

He wasn't arguing privilege. He was arguing that minorities are getting preferential treatment to the detriment of whites. That's bullshit.

If the debate is poor vs. rich, it isn't about race, as those arguing this point have stated.

Webb's article is focused entirely on race and the aspect of whites being unfairly discriminated against.

[Sparkly]

57. Poor white workers vs. wealthy non-white immigrants, for example...

He's not talking about ALL whites nor about ALL people of other races. But yes, he's saying that some poor people are denied opportunities given to others, based on race.

It is indeed about both "class" AND race (not one or the other, as your post implies -- ("If the debate is poor vs. rich, it isn't about race...")

[patrice]

59. Agreed!

[patrice]

58. Though the debate doesn't have to be based solely on Webb's article, responding, by saying

that "whites being unfairly discriminated against" does not matter, undercuts the argument that "being unfairly discriminated against" matters, because it makes non-discrimination a privilege based on __________________________ (whatever anyone has the power to fill in that blank with), so the whole thing becomes about a DRIVE TO POWER rather than something called a RIGHT.

[patrice]

62. BTW, for any credibility here, you need to admit that you DID say "discrimination against Whites

does not matter".

[ProSense]

66. "moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites"

Did anyone read the friggin article?

[glowing]

69. In general, unless you are connected, the laws do allow for special business loans

and student loans and considerations outside of test scores and the quota idea. It could discriminate against white people who are just are disadvantaged by class and living conditions.

Say you are from a long line of poor white people who hail from the trailer park in West Virginia. Your entire life has subsided of being poor and living off of hand outs and govt welfare. Your Great grammy had your grandma at the age of 16 and your grandma had your mom at the age of 16 and your mom had your sister at age 16 and you at 18.. and now, your sister is 17 and pregnant. Your entire life you have been wearing hand me downs and charity clothes (wearing pink pants on the play ground or a shirt that was cool 7 yrs ago is a mocking point). The entire household's education stopped much at the age that one became pregnant. Your Daddy is in jail for running meth, but you didn't have much of a relationship otherwise. This is just poor and class. Now, if the child is smart as a whip, has teachers that stay interested, and doesn't get caught up in the regular crap that a child can get into growing up, he may have a chance. However white, male on the college admission (that cost $100.00 to apply to) theoretically could be tossed aside for a non-white, female, Asian-American student from a upper middle class home. Who is the one in this case who needs a little more help. However, the wealthy use race as a way to divide the classes who should be banning together.

In this case, Senator Webb's example of what he is thinking would be better rounded with examples of what he is thinking. I think its a bit of lunacy to suggest that discrimination doesn't happen... I do get that he wants to ensure equality above all. That would be better achieved by urging poor and middle class people to ban together to form a stronger movement/ coalition. The tea party people feel some sort of injustice, and they are blaming it on the black President because that's what they have been taught. Many are none too educated, as we see by the signs they hold up, so they don't understand that its a class war and the rich are using race to bait them against their own interests. They are mad, but don't know who to be mad at. Likewise, I've heard some black people throw a blanket "white people are racists" at the problem as well... AND not all white people are close to being racist. I had someone accuse me of being racists, when race never entered into the issue, and he accused it of me at my place of business. That's not ok and not fair to call me a racist because I couldn't do something that I'm unauthorized to do for anybody.

Its actually about time we have these discussions. Its time we become "Americans" and screw categories politicians and media and rich like to put us in so that we are more divided.

[ProSense]

70. Poor white people

bogus

"Say you are from a long line of poor white people who hail from the trailer park in West Virginia."

This argument is not valid.

Say you are from a long line of poor people in the ghettos of NY or any of the numerous impoverished areas in the South...

People are poor and suffer, not just whites. Educating people about the suffering and alleviating it would be the correct approach, not making a gross argument that programs designed to aid minorities are resulting in discrimination against whites. That's preposterous.

[glowing]

82. So you are saying that the poor white boy should have less help in trying to escape

poverty than an Asian-American girl from an upper middle class income? Who is the more "at risk". A healthy society takes care of ALL its people equally. It tries to right the wrongs.

The moran sitting in his mom's basement blogging all day about black people being lazy and entitled and spouting that Obama is the most liberal marxist president ever who is destroying the country doesn't even realize who he should be angry at. He was conditioned to hate. The elite work very hard to institutionalize division.. and it looks very ugly and angry and disgusting once the pot has been stirred for multiple generations. Its about the perception that someone has it better because of color or religion or gender.. when its really about those with money and power keeping their money and power.. They do it by dividing the most of us into smaller groups that are ineffective and more busy fighting against one another.

[ProSense]

86. WTF? And I'm still going to answer your question

Bottom line: Class discrimination affects people of all races. Affirmative Action programs may have been flawed in addressing class discrimination, but it did serve the broader purpose of countering institutionalized discrimination against minorities. This article also shows that class-based affirmative action programs are not effective in countering race discrimination. So while the issue of class needs to be addressed, it shouldn't be done by trying to undo all efforts to ensure access to opportunity by minorities. Racism hasn't ended, and this is no time to create the impression that whites are being treated unfairly because of diversity programs. Class and race discrimination each has its own dynamics.

[glowing]

145. I didn't say it has ended. I'm saying there has been a grand propaganda

agenda to get races and religions to gate one another. I think Rachel marrow summed it up really great the other day. personally, I'd live to live in a world where I was judged equally and not because I know someone or have connections or fill a quota. I hope one day I live in such a world.

[Hannah Bell]

68. nice spin. you're good at this.

[ProSense]

72. More so-called spin

link

...the people suffering most in this long economic tailspin are the poor and the black, and you don’t hear much about that.

Jim Webb doesn't agree. He thinks whites are suffering.

[Hannah Bell]

92. maybe because white people *are* suffering? most poor people in the US, fyi, are white.

less as a % of all white people than poor black people as a % of all black people, but nevertheless, the majority of poor people in the US are white.

so you can stuff your stupid spin.

[ProSense]

94. What a great argument

"less as a % of all white people than poor black people as a % of all black people, but nevertheless, the majority of poor people in the US are white."

White people are the majority so they matter more.

Damn it, the teabaggers were friggin right all along.

[Hannah Bell]

109. "matter *more*"? that's your malicious spin.

you spun the op, you're spinning my comments to paint me as a (ra-cist) teabagger.

that game don't work with me.

but it sure works for the ruling class.

[Leontius]

96. How is it you keep using that quote but fail to understand what it

is saying "the poor and the black" means both groups. Race and class need to be addressed, not just race not just class if we can't concentrate on both at the same time by now we are lost as a society.

[ProSense]

98. "'the poor and the black' means both groups."

Right, it doesn't mean whites only nor does it mean WASP elites.

[Leontius]

104. My question to you would be who has said that only whites

and wasp elites are being discriminated against? I can't find anything in Webb's piece or posts here that say that. If I missed it somewhere please point it out.

[ProSense]

116. If you want to rationalize away

these bogus statements, be my guest.

Forty years ago, as the United States experienced the civil rights movement, the supposed monolith of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant dominance served as the whipping post for almost every debate about power and status in America. After a full generation of such debate, WASP elites have fallen by the wayside and a plethora of government-enforced diversity policies have marginalized many white workers. The time has come to cease the false arguments and allow every American the benefit of a fair chance at the future.

<...>

The injustices endured by black Americans at the hands of their own government have no parallel in our history, not only during the period of slavery but also in the Jim Crow era that followed. But the extrapolation of this logic to all "people of color"—especially since 1965, when new immigration laws dramatically altered the demographic makeup of the U.S.—moved affirmative action away from remediation and toward discrimination, this time against whites. It has also lessened the focus on assisting African-Americans, who despite a veneer of successful people at the very top still experience high rates of poverty, drug abuse, incarceration and family breakup.

The claims that WASP have fallen by the wayside, white workers are being marginalized and whites are discriminated against are ludicrous.

[Hannah Bell]

110. & no one said or implied it did -- except *you*. you also implied that only black people were

suffering.

so take a look in the fucking mirror & quit stirring the pot.

[ProSense]

134. I did no such thing.

Bottom line: Class discrimination affects people of all races. Affirmative Action programs may have been flawed in addressing class discrimination, but they did serve the broader purpose of countering institutionalized discrimination against minorities. This article also shows that class-based affirmative action programs are not effective in countering race discrimination. So while the issue of class needs to be addressed, it shouldn't be done by trying to undo all efforts to ensure access to opportunity by minorities. Racism hasn't ended, and this is no time to create the impression that whites are being treated unfairly because of diversity programs. Class and race discrimination each has its own dynamics.

And you need to calm down.

[Hannah Bell]

146. your post #72:

quote from article: "...the people suffering most in this long economic tailspin are the poor and the black, and you don’t hear much about that."

Pro sense's comment: Jim Webb doesn't agree. He thinks whites are suffering.


then you go on to call me a teabagger (read: ra-cist).

then your post 94, where you read my comment that the majority of poor people are white as white people are more important.



so no, *you* need to calm down.

[malaise]

37. Thanks for your comments

:hi:

[patrice]

48. !

:hi:

[Sparkly]

52. Wow -- I was ready to criticize this, but after reading it, it's food for thought.

I'm not sure I agree with his conclusion ("Memo to my fellow politicians: Drop the Procrustean policies and allow harmony to invade the public mindset. Fairness will happen, and bitterness will fade away.") -- I think it's much more complicated and deep-seated to expect that just "allowing" harmony will lead to it.

Yes, it's class, race and region all combined. I wish he'd have included gender in the analysis too, though.

Interesting Op Ed.

[Uncle Joe]

55. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, malaise.:thumbsup:

[Karmadillo]

63. Martin Luther King showed us how to deal with this problem.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2269

The Martin Luther King You Don't See on TV
Media Beat (1/4/95)
By Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon

<edit>

By 1967, King had also become the country's most prominent opponent of the Vietnam War, and a staunch critic of overall U.S. foreign policy, which he deemed militaristic. In his "Beyond Vietnam" speech delivered at New York's Riverside Church on April 4, 1967 — a year to the day before he was murdered — King called the United States "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today."

From Vietnam to South Africa to Latin America, King said, the U.S. was "on the wrong side of a world revolution." King questioned "our alliance with the landed gentry of Latin America," and asked why the U.S. was suppressing revolutions "of the shirtless and barefoot people" in the Third World, instead of supporting them.

In foreign policy, King also offered an economic critique, complaining about "capitalists of the West investing huge sums of money in Asia, Africa and South America, only to take the profits out with no concern for the social betterment of the countries."

You haven't heard the "Beyond Vietnam" speech on network news retrospectives, but national media heard it loud and clear back in 1967 — and loudly denounced it. Life magazine called it "demagogic slander that sounded like a script for Radio Hanoi." The Washington Post patronized that "King has diminished his usefulness to his cause, his country, his people."

In his last months, King was organizing the most militant project of his life: the Poor People's Campaign. He crisscrossed the country to assemble "a multiracial army of the poor" that would descend on Washington — engaging in nonviolent civil disobedience at the Capitol, if need be — until Congress enacted a poor people's bill of rights. Reader's Digest warned of an "insurrection."

King's economic bill of rights called for massive government jobs programs to rebuild America's cities. He saw a crying need to confront a Congress that had demonstrated its "hostility to the poor" — appropriating "military funds with alacrity and generosity," but providing "poverty funds with miserliness."

[Dappleganger]

64. Can't help but wonder what Ms. Sherrod's opinion would be about this topic.

BTW, my mother's family was one of his statistics: poor, white, Scots-Irish sharecroppers from the Mississippi Delta region.

[Dappleganger]

65. Can't help but wonder what Ms. Sherrod's opinion would be about this topic.

BTW, my mother's family was one of his statistics: poor, white, Scots-Irish sharecroppers from the Mississippi Delta region.

[ProSense]

67. This is why Jim Webb's article is totally off base

here

[Greyhound]

71. I've been saying it since long before DU existed, this is the one and only issue.

Every other problem we face is insoluble until this is dealt with.

Regional, racial, and sexual divisions are fostered and used to keep the victims (collectively all of us not in the parasite class) from looking at the single source, them.

[ProSense]

73. This article has been a great discussion starter

National Review: Two and a Half Cheers for Jim Webb


For all the criticism the President gets for latching onto deficit talk, here we have Webb echoing the worst argument of conservatives and teabaggers.

Ugh!

If he wanted to discuss class inequity, why inject the poor white people vs. unfairly advantaged minorities strawman into it.

[ProSense]

74. Here's a point for discussion

For those claiming that Webb is simply talking class discrimination against poor whites (still ludicrous), explain this statement from the article:

"After a full generation of such debate, WASP elites have fallen by the wayside and a plethora of government-enforced diversity policies have marginalized many white workers. "

Really WASP elites are suffering?

[Alcibiades]

85. +1

Webb has apparently never even been to Virginia. This is utter bullshit: I bet he golfs with the WASP elite he claims no longer exists.

[westerebus]

119. Are there no people of color in positions of trust and authority anywhere ?

None in government? None in finance? None in medicine? None in education?

People who got there on their merits?

People who worked hard for the positions they hold?

*******************************

WASP's elites are doing just fine. The key word here is "elites".

Poor people not so good.

[northernlights]

76. I think he may be fully aware it is a discussion of class

and is slipping in -- under the radar -- the first political salvos of a class war.

Everything happens for a reason, sometimes even when bad things happen to very good people. Maybe the recent events around Shirley Sherrod happened in order to bring her message to the forefront. It has provided an opening, and Webb is running with it ...

And he is right. The various diversity programs no longer serve their intended purpose; it is time to change them to make them effective again. Programs should open opportunities to lower class citizens, regardless of race, gender, (non)religion, etc.

[Uzybone]

77. Why does this race baiting oped have recs on DU?

White resentment is nothing to cheer.

[ProSense]

81. WASP are people too, and they're suffering. n/t

[CBR]

117. Yeah. It is not like our whole cultural system is rooted

in WASP values and norms or anything :crazy:

[Sparkly]

123. And we all know there are no poor people who are white.

:eyes:

[ProSense]

124. Who said there are no poor white people?

Seriously, who said that?

Here: facts

[Sparkly]

128. "WASP are people too, and they're suffering."

I thought you were being sarcastic. Were you not?

Was your point that the idea of WASPS "suffering" is ludicrous, or was it not?

[ProSense]

132. Webb specifically mentioned WASP elites, and maybe you're not

familiar with the term WASP.

[Sparkly]

141. "WASP are people too, and they're suffering."

What did you mean by that?

[Alcibiades]

87. It's a dog whistle

People see what they want to, especially from a Democrat. Progressives cannot hear the dog whistle:

"the supposed monolith of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant dominance served as the whipping post for almost every debate about power and status in America."

The whipping post? Really? So, it's white folks who have been tied to the whipping post? Is this the metaphor Webb really wants to use here?

Yep, it is. Part of the dog whistle.

[CBR]

115. +1000 nt

[LostinVA]

135. I recced it -- it should be recced

A member of the Senate wrote this, and it needs to be seen. I am disgusted but not surprised by this. Tailhook, etc., showed what Webb is like.

[CBR]

138. I plead ignorance on Webb and Tailhook but I just googled and

Wow! What a buffoon.

[LostinVA]

136. I recced it -- it should be recced

A member of the Senate wrote this, and it needs to be seen. I am disgusted but not surprised by this. Tailhook, etc., showed what Webb is like.

[KittyWampus]

89. After the Civil War it wasn't just freed slaves (blacks) who were at a disadvantage>

the white sharecroppers were also at the receiving end of abuse.

Carpet Baggers, the Southerners might not have been school educated but they were smart enough to spot opportunistic bloodsuckers when they were from the North.

Unfortunately, they are happy to accommodate and host modern day bloodsuckers as long as they speak with a southern accent and preach the right religion.

[mike r]

91. It is a discussion on class - with a big nativist theme

[sulphurdunn]

103. Southern Strategy

As the old saw goes: There are liars, damn liars and statistics. According to the national Poverty Center University of Michigan:

1. 83% of all college students in the US are non-Hispanic non-Jewish whites.
2. 16% of all college students are black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian and and all other minorities.
3. Children (eighteen and younger)comprise 19 to 24% of those living in poverty.
4. 11% of American whites live in poverty. They also comprise 48% of all poor people in America.
5. 34% of American blacks live in poverty.
5. 31% of Hispanics live in poverty
6. 13% of Asians live in poverty.
7. 15% of Jews live in poverty. (This figure has been estimated by the Jewish Federation of Chicago to be as high as 20%). According to the Jewish Federation of America, 25% of American Holocaust survivors live in poverty.
6. 1% of the population accrue 34% of privately held wealth (wages, salaries, property, rents, dividends, royalties etc,) and own 43% of the country's financial wealth (investment securities, stocks, bonds etc.)

[ProSense]

118. Good statistics, thanks. n/t

[Recursion]

105. Rich white male declares white privilege to be a myth

Film at 11.

[greiner3]

112. "Irish Protestants;"

Also known as 'Scotch Irish; the same assholes who took over vast resources of the Irish after the potato blight that killed millions of the indigenous people there.

[LostinVA]

137. THANK for you not calling it a "famine"

Since it was the polar opposite of one!

[Hannah Bell]

140. hardly.

[sulphurdunn]

143. Highland Scots had been living in northern Ireland

for centuries before the first lowlanders were compelled to settle there in the 1600s by their English and Scots manor lords. They fought and married the Irish, a tradition that continues to this day. The overwhelming majority of Irish Protestants had emigrated to America by 1775, nearly a century prior to the potato genocide managed by the British Crown and carried out by both Catholic and Protestant landowners against all Irish commoners. The name is correctly spelled Scots Irish. They settled the American frontier from the Blue Ridge to the Mississippi. Their names fill the pantheon of famous Americans from A to Z, and they make better whiskey than the Irish. Before casting aspersions upon entire ethnic groups of people you should get your history straight. :smoke:

[BEZERKO]

122. Interesting article,

and even better discussion here on DU!

[JDPriestly]

126. California's discrimination laws apply equally to all races.

White men can sue for discrimination in California.

California Government Code section 12940.

It shall be an unlawful employment practice, unless based upon a bona fide occupational qualification, or, except where based upon applicable security regulations established by the United States or the State of California:
(a) For an employer, because of the race, religious creed, color, national origin, ancestry, physical disability, mental disability, medical condition, marital status, sex, age, or sexual orientation of any person, to refuse to hire or employ the person or to refuse to select the person for a training program leading to employment, or to bar or to discharge the person from employment or from a training program leading to employment, or to discriminate against the person in compensation or in terms, conditions, or privileges of employment.

. . . . more
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=00962922857+8+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Of course, he has to prove that the discrimination took place, and the current, conservative Supreme Court has made it much more difficult to prove discrimination. I think that conservatives on the Supreme Court have a racist view on discrimination. There really can be discrimination against white males based on race and gender. It's very hard to prove. Maybe it is rare. But it happens in specific workplaces.

The history of slavery in the South speaks for itself. The South caused its own economic problems when it decided to insist on sticking with the system of slavery instead of moving forward with the flow of history. I say that as one who has lived in the South and knows it well. You make your bed. You lie in it.

[alarimer]

131. He's full of shit.

Gee, another DINO. Quelle surprise.

Why don't these people fucking recognize that diversity is a good thing? Who gives a shit what WASPs think? They have run the country into the ground for the last 200 years. I cannot wait for minorities to be (collectively) in the majority. White people have fucked shit up enough and they have the unmitigated gall to complain about "diversity"? Fuck that noise.

[Optimistic]

147. He will be switching parties soon

He is this generations Phil Gramm, From Democrat to extreme Right Wing Wacko.
As a matter of fact he will be on the 2012 Republican Ticket