The other day there was a conversation

[nadinbrzezinski]

here on the Old DU that got me thinking, once again, about consumerism... and choice.

The details, for obvious reasons, shall remain nebulous. Suffice it to say that somebody is having some issues making ends meet with a higher income than average, and I read the ever so popular, but we don't have a choice.

Well, here is the rub. We all have a choice, but as I start cleaning the crap and not so much crap, at my storage units, I realize just how much crap we have. Granted, most of it are hidden treasures, like my large, personal library... which these days grows in electronic form. But I fear quite a bit of it is also crap... things, we got, when we still tried to get things and keep up with others.

We made a choice, a conscious choice, back in Hawaii, NOT to replace things just for the sake of it. Not to buy things for the sake of it. We made a decision to SAVE... and not buy things unless needed. Ok I made that decision, but it's worked wonders.

Ok, we make an exception for our hobbies... but even those we got more than enough for a life time. And it is a way to talk to each other, painting minis, and playing with toys.

Now let me apologize. If most Americans did what we are doing I am afraid the economy would have crashed a while ago. I mean we just don't consume as much or close to even the low average. We save for all we finally decide to buy and... we save for the future. No, we are not righteous. We are simply living a different way than most people do today.

Yes I own a credit card, fully paid every month. And my bills, that I pay every month, and a neatto savings account. We chose not to consume, as much... so this is the point. When I hear the but you don't get it, and my (insert money here) don't last... I will now tell you the same thing I told many a fellow Navy Wife that said that. Yes, yes you do. Perhaps it is time to sit down and see what you can or should cut out of your spending.

Now I will not blame the average American. Watch the TEEVEE, not to watch our favorite shows... but to examine HOW you are primed to consume. Realize that no, you don't have to. That is beyond food, and shelter and a few other basic things like clothes and yes vehicles, no you don't have to.

On the down side, if we all started saving like we do... I fear the economy would slow down. NO, a few of us doing it, has little effect. But if forty million people did... that would be a problem the way our economy is designed to work. Hell if that went up to 150 million... it would be a definite problem. Which is why our "masters" are right now trying to figure out how to make the average middle class Chinese open up on the purse strings. Their savings rates are above 30% and damn I wish I could match that. And why you need to pay attention to them adds, and how they prime you for consumption.

At the risk of showing a good, very obvious example, look at the Apple Commercials, as well as the Droid Commercials. This is what I call... "Lifestyle adds." No, they are not selling you cool stuff, they are selling you a cool brand and a lifestyle. The next in the fun department are the insurance adds. Oh the barbs they are taking at each other, and all of them are also lifestyle commercials. I got to say it though Mr. Mayhem is replacing a certain gecko as a cute way to get the message... but a certain Flo is still amusing. I did not mention a brand, and I am sure you KNOW who or what I am talking about. They are that good at getting the message across.

So here is your homework: Start really paying attention on how needs are created and even if you have a good income right now, and you feel you don't need to. THINK of the things you really don't need. Hell, for us an afternoon together having some coffee is just great... or just reading. Speaking off, I need to get some done.

Or rather some more reading done.

[Atticus]

1. "Simplify, simplify."---"Hank David" nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I'll admit I do splurge in food.

Locavore is not cheap.

[Atticus]

6. Count not the day lost: you have added a neat word to my vocabulary: locavore. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. You welcome

[OffWithTheirHeads]

3. If I live that way, capitalism will die.

But, what the fuck, capitalism never cared much about me,

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Well it is NOT capitalism what we have today

it is corporatism, but that is another discussion.

When we still had a capitalist country... people took their clothes to be fixed to the seamstress, instead of just replacing things... or did it themselves. I take it to the seamstress.

If we lived in a capitalist country main street would have local businesses, not franchises as far as the eye can see.

Yes, in a capitalist system, the monopolies are taken apart to foster competition among small bidnesses, there is a living wage and capitalists are not allowed to set prices. That is in the Wealth of Nations. So yes. give me a little capitalism. I will gladly take it.

[uncommon]

21. Hell yeah it would. And good riddance.

I would rather pay a fair price for a quality good or service from my neighbor than a low price for something from a nameless corporation.

There is little fulfillment available in consumer culture.

[Pithlet]

5. While there is nothing wrong with anyone who wants to do this

And I certainly don't think it would hurt, I think it is focusing too much on stuff like this that takes focus off the real culprits of the mess we're in. It isn't us working stiffs. I got into it the other day with someone on DU over this. Yeah, live simple if you want to. And I'm sure there are quite a few who could stand to dig themselves out of some personal holes. But don't blame the little people for the mess we're in. I"m not saying you're doing this and I didn't read your post that way, but I wouldn't be surprised if we have some showing up in this thread who will do that very thing. And on the flip side, I don't think people need to feel guilty for their splurges either if they can afford them, especially if they're posting here on DU. They're more than likely not powerful enough that they're part of the problem. ETA your point about learning to resist the pull of consumerism is a good point, though. I think they should teach kids in schools how to be skeptical of advertising. It should be mandatory.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. A PERSON will not do a whit of a difference

in the economic system.

But groups will, large groups in particular.

Also with Peak Oil we will have to take some responsibility for our carbon foot print. And mine is not small, perhaps smaller than others, but not small.

But I will repeat this, what I do matters little in the macro economic level. And the powers that be... worry that large groups will one day decide to stop buying the latest bauble. This is what spending patterns and consumer confidence are all about. It is not about me... it is about 300+ million people and an economic system that depends on the consumer for 70% of the economic activity of the country.

That said, and this is my experience, most of the time when people complaint that pay don't go as far as it used to... well it don't, but there are also things people can cut and avoid getting into holes. That said, people are addicted to consumption. And I am not blaming people, just asking people to realize that indeed we all have choices.

Oh and if peak oil hits as hard as any worst case scenario predicts living simply will not be a fad, it will be a necessity. Of course there will be a few other ahem... unpleasantness, but that is besides the point. Suffice it to say... this computer will be a thing of history unless we find ways to make "plastics" economically from oh Algae, for example. And our age will pretty much be over. Worst case also includes a population collapse and the end of the Iron Age is probably the best model for that. All but nice.

[Pithlet]

10. I think for the most part people are just trying to get by.

I think there are some who are caught in the net of affluence and aspiration, it's true. But think they get a lot more attention than they truly warrant. I think people conflate their presence in our society because they get so much attention and representation in our media that is out of proportion to their actual numbers. I think the fact that our middle class is shrinking, our pay scales aren't keeping up, and our social safety nets are in trouble warrant a lot more attention, personally. As for peak oil, people would drive their cars less often if there was an infrastructure that would support that decision. Decisions that would lead to that infrastructure are again made by the powerful I was talking about. The powerful who own the media who present a picture that skews our perceptions of reality. I think many focus on the wrong things because of that. Many think the enemy is is something other than what it really is. It's taking focus away from what the real problem is. Of course, it's important as individuals to be aware of the pull of consumerism and to be weary of that sort of thing. But, it's also important to be aware of the big picture and where that all fits in was kind of my point. I'm just weary of the tendency of some to place the blame where it doesn't belong because of a skewed perception that our media is only too happy to present. In short, I don't think living simply will do a whole heck of a lot other than make life simpler for the people exercising that choice. The powerful will still be rolling over the rest of us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Riddle me this

what happens if oh 150 million consumers decide overnight NOT to buy baubles?

This is not as insignificant as you are making it sound. Not when our economy relies on it for 70% of economic activity.

[Pithlet]

13. Okay, continue to blame it on baubles.

If that floats your boat. :shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Economics I guess is not your strong suit, is it?

It is not what floats my boat. It is how the US Economic system has been structured since at least the 1950s taking its modern form in the 1980s. It was meant to avoid some of the sharp edges, and in some ways it was accidental.


Reality is that you are trying to deny one of the things that affects us. You may want to do some research into Barnays and the creation of needs.

Or not.

And by the way I am not blaming the victim either... we all are victims but we still have choices.

[Pithlet]

18. What is Barnay's?

Nothing even comes up on Google :shrug: At any rate, I'm not an economic expert by any means, but I do have the general layman's understanding of how it works combined with a liberal progressive aversion to pinning society's ills on the little people. As victims we still have choices. Well, of course. Who would argue otherwise? I just bristle at the tendency to shift blame away from where it truly belongs. Just Live Simply can easily turn into It's All Your Fault. And that's way too simplistic and ignores too many factors. One doesn't have to be an economics expert to know that. ETA that I know what you were driving at. The buying habits of the public can have an effect economy. So? What does that have to do with the fact that we're not to blame for the economic mess? If you think it's the irresponsible overspending of the general public, you're wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Barnays, a cousin of Freud

is the father of modern marketing. He is the one who came with the great idea that you didn't have to sell people what they needed, but what you made them want. He used psychology to develop the early techniques that you can see in oh an add for an IPAD. He came with the idea of the brand.

Now he never got as sophisticated as what we have today... see the Nation of Bennetton, Apple... American Living, but he set the basis for that.

And it is no the overspending of the public that lead to this mess. You are arguing something very different, and you are also convinced I am blaming the victim. I am just explaining to you that the ECONOMY, the ECONOMIC LIFE of the US depends on you and me consuming stuff. We moved away from manufacturing a while ago, and we have been moving towards a service economy. This did not start oh a year ago. This is a systemic problem going back to at least, in it's modern form, to 1980.

That said, a lack of a savings rate in the US is also seen as a problem by economists, but it gets you into the Keynseian trap, where people hold on to their money instead of spending, which in the aggregate lead to less economic activity. It is called that way because Keynes was the first to describe it. On a personal basis, we were going to replace a truck. Well, since now we have some insecurity regarding a job, and income, see that Keynseian trap. Me, don't matter, but me and 40 million other people making that decision, does matter.

Here is a good intro into this... called the century of self

http://www.google.com/search?aq=1&oq=the+century+of+self&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=the+century+of+self+part+1

[Hannah Bell]

17. well, let's see: #1 job loss, #2 chain reactions secondary to the reduced consumption

that follows from that job loss, #3 continuing downward spiral as the ripples spread.

the position is internally inconsistent. The world economy is based on expanding consumption. that's capitalism.

reduced consumption = reduced production = job losses = more reduced consumption, production, & job losses.

= continuing depression & privation.

capitalism as currently organized cannot be the vehicle for a more sustainable yet still just & adequate way of life.

[uncommon]

23. You are correct, people just don't like to hear it.

[uncommon]

22. It's not the individual, it's the consumer culture that we as individuals take part in

on a daily basis.

[handmade34]

7. Live Simply,.. So That Others May Simply Live

...so my bumper sticker says

[Hannah Bell]

11. Top 5% of the income distribution do 1/3 of the consumer spending.

Bottom 95% spends the other 2/3.

Bottom 50% spends minimally.

Not sure who the instruction to "simplify" is aimed at.

It's the top 5% mostly writing the books touting the "simple" lifestyle. Maybe they'd better look at their own lives first, & at how much money their version of "simplicity" actually costs.

Personally, I think they're a bunch of hypocrites.

[Pithlet]

14. But people are all too happy to blame that bottom 95%

And they'll eat up the myths the media feeds them in order to do it. It's really hard to press that point you're making. Most won't see it for some reason. :shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

15. nope. just continued paeans to the simple life & how we're all a bunch of mindless consumers.

because the top tier sees *their* consumption as tasteful, ecologically friendly consumption which doesn't really count.

that includes people like sheryl "one square of toilet paper" crow, preaching austerity to the masses while she lives in a mansion & flies in a private jet.

or al "pollution trading" gore, preaching peak oil while he lives in a mansion & flies in a private jet.

it's fucking sick-making.

[uncommon]

20. Amen. What is life about?

Big house, fancy car, private school?

The upper middle class lifestyle that lower middle class people got accustomed to during the boom was never going to be sustainable. The consumer culture based on endless consumption is never going to be sustainable.

I think if more people would just slow down and take a look at what they are really overextending themselves for, they would be sickened and saddened.

It's just not worth it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Well I will argue we still need the car

not fancy, but we still need this. Again a function of how our economy is structured as well as urban design.

[uncommon]

25. Of course. But the basics are usually within reach

for most people. Obviously there are people living in poverty who cannot afford the basic things like home, car, food, basic bills.

But for me, there is no reason my home needs to cost more than $1000 per month, my car $250 per month, my other bills about $500 including student loans and cable... I see people with $5,000 mortgages and $800 car payments and they are stressed for money - there is no reason. And then on top of it, spend money on foolish things they don't need.

[gratuitous]

26. Short response

That is, in part, why goosing the price of gas to more than $4 a gallon was a bad idea for the corporatists. When people were having to watch their fuel consumption, or make choices between gassing up the family sedan and buying other stuff, it made for a bad business environment. For a little while there, my observation was that people were mindful of their consumerism and began evaluating a lot more closely what they were buying, when, and why. People were even careful to bundle trips (say, to the grocery store, the bank, and Little Marblehead's soccer practice) so as to save gas.

This was very bad for consumerism, and spawned a whole new crop of more competitive advertising to nudge folks back to where they buy without quite so much thinking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. And commercials became real fun

I mean good poetry for Levy's? I was laughing, but hey, I guess I can use some real good poetry.

[gateley]

28. It's societal. I work part time at a storage facility. We're loathe to part with

'things' because we've been brainwashed these things define who we are. I can't tell you how many people are paying for storage and say "I couldn't even tell you what's in there anymore."

I heard that this industry decided to take Europe by storm. Bought the land, built the facilities, but never got the business they were anticipating. I've always heard Europeans have far less than we do -- rather than collect new acquisitions (clothes, furniture, gadgets) they buy what they need, the best quality they can afford, and actually use it instead of looking around for what to buy next.

I understand there are treasures people want to keep, but I have a story.

When I moved to NC I had everything I owned put in storage while I decided where to settle down. This included all the history of my family in photos, birth certificates, the dining room table I grew up with and figured in so many happy memories, everything I owned, everything I had. The storage facility was robbed and they cleaned out two or three units into trucks and that was that. I was devastated. Not even a picture of my parents or of me as a child remained. Then, my apartment was robbed and my mom's jewelry, my grandmother's engagement ring (from 1900), and all that I had left of my 'life' was taken. I can't tell you how much pain I was in, and I still feel sad when I allow myself to think of it.

But you know what? I survived. I'd give a lot to get those things back, but I DO have the memories in my heart and I learned a very important lesson. It changed my life and my priorities.

That's all.

[marked50]

29. It's not just the economics

The discussion about living more simply isn't just an economic one, especially around survival or it's influence on the larger economy. Living simply can be a liberating experience where one is exercising more control over their lives and decisons that can only be described as coming from a more genuine place in their being. No more having to put up with that lousy job because they need that income, etc. I have always thought that the complexity of your life in represented by the number of reciprocating engines you own ( ie more and more maintenance time) now it's how many batteries you need. Giving these up can lead to a more genuine and fulfilling life.

[sendero]

30. My wife and I..

.... will soon be fulfilling our dream to move to the country and do a lot of gardening.

We live in a big house in the city, a house that was great for raising our boys but they are gone now and we don't need all this space.

Once we realized that we could actually DO this, we started unloading tons of crap that we will not be able to fit in our small house in the country.

Craigslist has been a godsend. We have sold everything from furniture to fitness equipment to lego blocks and every transaction went swimmingly.

Having to sell off a bunch of the crap we've accumulated over the years opened our eyes. Most of this stuff WE NEVER USED. We have made a conscious decision to not buy stuff unless we REALLY NEED it and are REALLY going to use it.

Needless to say we'll be buying a lot less "stuff".

[eridani]

31. Consuming less need not crash the economy

What we need is mandatory overtime for anything over 30 hours a week, and stiff tax penalties on companies that require more hours than that of people. This would not apply to self-employment of course, so workaholics would have the option of starting their own businesses and putting as much time into them as they liked.

Or as the Italians put it "Lavorare meno! Lavorare tutti!"

[seaker]

32. Right on topic for my current

frame of mind..have you read a book called "Possum Living"? Quick and on topic!