my kids are leaving the country in January, hopefully for good....

[mike_c]

It's actually kid, I suppose, since I only have one daughter. But she and her husband-- my son-in-law-- are arranging to immigrate to northern Europe, starting with a six month acculturation curriculum in Denmark that begins in January. They've been working on this for the last couple of years. She's 30 and he's 29, both very intelligent and well educated, both with quite useful professions. He has dual citizenship in an EU nation, which makes it somewhat easier for them, I gather. Both are fed up with the U.S. and are planning to immigrate totally. I'm really excited for them!

My partner and I will be leaving too, if everything goes according to plan-- it's just going to take us a little longer. Unfortunately, we're at the end of our careers instead of the beginning, so we're hanging on until we retire, assuming, of course, that retirement is still an option in six or seven years. We're looking at Central and South American countries though, where we'll have to be content living as expats rather than immigrating. Sucks to be old, I guess. (Actually we're fine with that.)

None of us expect any other government to be significantly less venal and corrupt than the U.S. It's just that we'll be "outsiders" without a direct personal stake any longer-- those venal and corrupt governments will be using someone else's name to justify their behavior, which we hope will at least be reprehensible on a smaller scale. This just isn't our country any longer.

[niceypoo]

1. I have been gearing up to leave eventually myself

There is a book on Latin America that is required reading for every school kid in that part of the world. It is called, 'Open Veins of Latin America.' It is a must read for anyone who travels to Latin America regularly as it explains the roots of the socio-economic woes of Latin American countries.

The two party system is irreparably broken, for sure.

[The Northerner]

2. With the economy and country the way it is, I certainly don't blame you or anyone

who chooses to do so.

Good luck.

[old mark]

3. I am saddened by this, but I certainly understand it...Good luck to all concerned...nt

[uppityperson]

4. Congratulations and please continue to vote.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

5. Cue jingoistic mouthbreathers in 3... 2... 1...

[galileoreloaded]

14. Im amazed that the same 10 posters really seem to be the

water carriers.

It would be funny if it wasn't so transparent.

[superduperfarleft]

28. ZOMG WHY WON'T YOU STAY AND FIGHT!!!!!11ONE n/t

[Edweird]

6. Congratulations. I'm getting geared up for my own depature as well.

[mike_c]

19. good luck to you, my friend!

:toast:

[Arugula Latte]

7. I've been thinking about this for my own children (who are still children)

I almost feel like telling them, look, obviously this country has decided that funding endless war for corporate profit is its mission, so you need to try your hardest to eventually establish yourself in a country that thinks providing healthcare and education for its citizens are worthy goals.

[JoePhilly]

8. I hear you ...

When I was a kid on Philly ... no one in my family had ever left. I grew up in the same house my father grew up in. Same was true for many of my friends. Most of my friends still live within 20 miles of our old neighborhood.

I left Philly about 26 years ago ... and have lived in 4 different states ... mainly for career reasons.

With the globalization underway in the fashion it is taking, it is very likely that American workers will be forced to greatly lower their standard of living ... or move, not to another state, but to another country ... where they will make less, but in a cheaper place.

My wife had a chance to take a position in India a few years back ... and we seriously considered it. She would have kept her current salary, but we'd have been living in a much much cheaper environment. Apparently, we'd have been able to have servants.

We decided not to do it ... but my point is that leaving the US for a better economic situation may be something people need to get ready for ... most of the CEOs own multiple homes around the globe ... companies can put their head-quarters in whatever country they want ... they've basically already "left" America behind.

I keep wondering when right wing folks in rural America will figure out that this is the future they are helping to create.

[Mudoria]

9. Good luck to you..

I guessing we'll manage to struggle on without you somehow....

[prolesunited]

10. Consider Panama. Lots of good programs/benefits

http://www.businesspanama.com/tourism/retire_live.php

[mike_c]

12. we are, as well as Nicaruagua, and Ecuador....

eom

[mitchtv]

16. If I were thirty years younger

I would consider Costa Rica and Uruguay.

[mike_c]

18. we're doing this for retirement-- I really envy the kids who are establishing themselves elsewhere..

As my daughter puts it, they like northern Europe a lot, but it's not a great place to retire because the cost of living is relatively expensive-- unless you immigrate and have your career there first, in which case you get the benefit of the social safety net that citizens enjoy. That's their plan.

[mitchtv]

25. you don't want to spend your older years

in a cold place; I would think. I would love to buy one of those old mansions that abound in Uruguay and restore it, but health issues keep me in CA

[LargeGreenSpider]

22. I would leave too if I were younger.

My wife and I spend a lot of time in Canada. Buying a minimart there would be a good move.

[Puglover]

49. My partner and I

have purchased land in Cotacachi Ecuador. We are going to start to build this fall. Good Luck!

[mike_c]

56. best of luck to you, too!

:hi:

[mike_c]

11. it's been interesting to watch the saga of recs and unrecs in this thread....

I don't know whether it touched a sensitive nerve or whether the unrec'ers are just the usual crowd that serially unrecs damned near everything.

:rofl:

[malaise]

13. Denmark is lovely

My oldest sister left the US for Denmark in 1969. She only leaves to visit the rest of us. It's a lovely place to live - hardworking, caring, peaceful and lots of fun.

[mike_c]

17. I can't wait to visit them there! /nt

[Stinky The Clown]

23. mike, you're branded as a malcontent. Its the usual crowd.

What countries are you considering for your expatritude? We've talked about that, too, along with a few other geezer relatives and maybe buying into some sort of Costa Rican or Belizian family compound sort of thing. Nothing fancy, just a few of us in our own houses close to one another. gates are optional and hopefully unnecessary.

[mike_c]

26. Nicaraugua, Ecuador, and Panama currently...

...although it's still early. We won't retire for another six years or so, I think. Lots could change by then. If everything goes according to plan, and we stay healthy, we're going to spend several years traveling up and down the Americas on the cheap during the first years of retirement, looking for someplace to wash up when we're ready for a home base again.

I'm conflicted about Belize. On the one hand, I love Belize, especially the central and southern coast. I like Garifuna culture, I like Dangriga, Sittee River, and Punta Gorda. OMG, Hopkins. I like the San Ignacio area, too. And Belize has one of the lowest population densities of any Central American nation, which appeals to me mightily. It has considerable amounts of primary forest left. On the other hand, although the Cays are beautiful, Ambergris and the like have been invaded by too many gringos for my taste-- I know, so I'll just invade somewhere else. Oh well. Anyway, the Cays are a bit too much like a funky Caribbean theme park. Belize is also expensive, although I've no doubt that we could live frugally just about anywhere.

Costa Rica has some of the same attractions, and some of the same drawbacks. Not much interest in Honduras presently. La Ceiba area maybe.

We need to spend more time in South America though. Some of our best friends are in Argentina now. We should be getting some reports from them soon.

[Stinky The Clown]

31. Argentina has always been a lure for me

I have not been there. My grandfather had a brother. My grandfather emigrated all alone to NY when he was 16. He never saw another blood relative again, part from one cousin. His brother did the very same thing, but to Argentina. They corresponded over the years and each raised a family. My aunt, now in her 90s, has met two of her uncle's children, many years ago. There remains a vibrant Italian community in Buenos Aires. I'd love to get there to visit.

One of our familial (near)geezers who has talked about the Central/South America thing is Chilean.

One of our familial (near)geezerettes has said she'll go anywhere with beaches and sunshine. :) (She posts here and is not Sparkly)

[Foo Fighter]

35. That's the general area I've been considering as well.

I've heard good things about Costa Rica also but have never been there personally. Along with the countries you listed, Brazil and Argentina also appeal to me.

First off, good on your kid(s) for looking to immigrate to Denmark. Sounds like they're in a perfect position to do it and from everything I've heard about Denmark, they have made an excellent choice. Oh, and BTW, once they get established, let me know if they would be willing to help a "long-lost relative" gain citizenship. If that's not possible, could they maybe adopt me? ;)

I'm kind of in the same boat as you, though I'm younger so I'll have quite a few more years than you before I can retire. I figure it probably makes more sense for me to wait until I retire instead of quitting my job (which I really like), moving, and then trying to find a job and establish myself somewhere. Good luck with that in this economy. Once I retire, that whole job thing is moot as I'll have SS (Bwahahahaha! Yeah, right.) and a pension so that simplifies things a great deal.

I have done very little traveling but one thing I'd like to do after I retire is put my stuff in storage and then tour the world by bike for a year or two. Bike touring is really the best way to get a feel for what a country/area is like and hopefully after a year or two, I'd have it sorted out where I'd like to live. Once I have that figured out, I'll ride until I can't ride anymore and then it's time to settle down.

Lucky for me, bike touring is a really cheap way to get around, especially if you cook your own food and stealth camp and/or ask a farmer's permission to pitch your tent next to his pasture, etc. In a lot of countries, you can plan on a budget of $10-$15/day per person (in current dollars). Hell, I pay more than that now each month in HOA fees, real estate taxes, and gas/electricity alone. Of course with bike touring, you also have to add in flights, fees for visas and permits for some areas, etc. but even at that, I can tour the world by bike way cheaper than I can live in my paid-off house. Go figure.

Of course, the one drawback in my plan is my health. I have two bad knees and asthma that seems to be getting worse. I'm not letting them keep me off the bike now so hopefully I'll still be able to bike once I retire. If not, I think I might just do the dartboard thing to decide where to live. ;) But that would be a bummer because I REALLY want to tour the world by bike, regardless of whether or not I'm looking to leave this country once I retire.

Mike, please keep up updated not only how things go for your kid(s) but also on what you and your partner find out regarding the various countries you're considering, where you eventually decide to move to, etc. This is valuable info, especially for those of us that are looking to follow in your tracks and any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

[Toucano]

15. Until the United States can no longer get credit to fund it's enormous military

emigration only provides partial relief.

Uncle Sam casts a big, dark shadow. Decisions made in Washington, D.C. have repercussions all over the world.

It's been five years for me and I've learned that the real problem isn't the nation, which is a quaint concept.

It's the corporations and their wealthy, ignorant shareholders that create all the misery. The government and its armies are merely one of their tools.

[Foo Fighter]

36. That's one thing I've thought of also.

Even if someone can just pick up and move to another country, the US has very long tentacles.

Here's something I've often wondered: If money were no object, what's the best country to move to in order to really "escape" the US? Would it be some place like Canada, one of the Scandanavian countries, or some little country somewhere that's pretty much off the radar? Any ideas?

[Toucano]

44. I don't really know, sorry.

I would investigate New Zealand, actually. Quite progressive and a little off the radar, too.

At least until oil is discovered. ;)

Money certainly would allow one to insulate themselves from the impact of U.S. policy almost without regard to geography.

[Foo Fighter]

70. No worries. Thanks for the reply.

I think you're right that new Zealand would be a good one to look at. Well, it would be if I were rich anyway. ;)

At any rate, it was a completely hypothetical question. Money is definitely an issue for me, as I suspect it is for most people. I'll be looking to move somewhere where the cost of living is low as that's my best bet of being able to get by.

Yeah, if a person has enough money, they could insulate themselves from feeling the effects of U.S. policy. In that sense, I guess if a person is rich, it really doesn't matter where they live.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

20. Can I crash in their house?

I'll walk the dishes and do the dog. No, wait...

[tom_paine]

21. A very tough decision for anyone. I wish you and they all the best of luck.

So much of what you said is so true, especially "None of us expect any other government to be significantly less venal and corrupt than the U.S. It's just that we'll be "outsiders" without a direct personal stake any longer-- those venal and corrupt governments will be using someone else's name to justify their behavior, which we hope will at least be reprehensible on a smaller scale. This just isn't our country any longer.

I only hope that mentality holds after you've been there awhile.

Also, the person who mentioned upthread how it's not so much our nation as it is Multinational Corporations, and that it may catch up with you, is prescient. But if it happens to you and yours, may that day be LONG in coming.

Good luck and please stay in touch on DU.

[deutsey]

24. If I could, I'd consider moving with my family to a place like Denmark

I know someone who lives there and loves it; I also know several people who have visited and wished they could've stayed.

[LibertyLover]

27. My husband and I are thinking about retiring to Europe in 5 or 6 years

Where I work, I have to retire at age 62. That gives me 5 years more, unless they up the mandatory retirement age, which I doubt. Thank all the gods - I have an actual, real live pension plan here and am vested. Our daughter will be 13 or so and at just the wrong age to change schools, friends, etc., but we'll go in a heartbeat if things continue here the way they are. I can get citizenship in Ireland due to the fact that my paternal grandparents were born there and I'll be working on that starting in a few years.

[KatyMan]

32. I'd pursue that Irish citizenship sooner rather

than later. The laws have changed in the past few years with regard to your spouse getting citizenship, so I'd get it rolling before they decide to make more changes. Plus, it really does take a couple of years, between the time it takes for you to gather your documentation and the time it takes for them to eventually get around to looking at it and approving it.

[LibertyLover]

66. Thank you!!

I really appreciate the information. I'll check the requirements and get started.

[Hekate]

46. Do a bit of investigating. I learned something rather sad while on tour there this spring

Our guide, Irish-born but living in the US, said he and his wife thought at one time of raising their kids back in Ireland, but after several years there they decided there was just too much of a burgeoning crime problem, so they moved back to Rhode Island, where they remain.

That private conversation was a bit of a shocker, and it convinced Mr Hekate to stop fantasizing about moving there.

As I say, do some investigating. As tourists, we saw nothing of the sort -- but then, you wouldn't have much of a tour business if you showed people the dirty linen, would you? We got to hear the best folk music, see the most wonderful scenery in the West of Ireland, and on and on. There is a huge amount of empty land outside the cities, it seems. The population remains small -- for the first time since the Famine, it has reached almost 5 million, thanks to EU immigrants.

I just finished reading Pete McCarthy's book "McCarthy's Bar" about his travels in search of his true home (he was born and raised in England) and it is a lovely book. Recommended.

Good luck. My biggest reluctance to leaving the US at this point is that my kids are 34 and 32, settled and working, and will never leave. I can't bring myself to be exiled from them, even though we are not close.

Hekate

[LibertyLover]

67. I understand what you mean - it will be difficult for me to leave friends of

decades long standing, knowing that I probably won't see them again. We are actually thinking of living in York. My husband's family is originally from Yorkshire(a really long time ago LOL!, like the 12th century). We like York very much and with the British rail system, we could literally go to Paris for lunch and some shopping and be home for a late supper. Don't get me wrong, I like Ireland, but, as they say, the next parish over is Boston. It's a bit too isolated for us and I worry that it's a bit insular (pun intended). Our daughter is internationally adopted from China and has already faced (at the tender age of 8 for heaven's sake) problems here about her looks. I'm afraid that it might be also be a problem in Ireland, as much as I love my ancestral homeland. We figure England, even York, is a bit more cosmopolitan and while we can't say there wouldn't be similar problems there, we're hoping it will be less so.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. I'd love to expatriate, too, and although I'd prefer Europe, it's hard to

emigrate there without being independently wealthy at my age. (No such luck)

Outside of Europe, I'm looking at South America or Southeast Asia.

[Xenotime]

30. I applaud them for pursuing a more socialist existence...

I was really hoping for something like that here but it seems, it will never come. Just some watered down version of something that might be fair..maybe..if you are rich.

[earth mom]

33. Good luck to your kids! Wish I could leave too! nt

[Obamanaut]

34. When I retired from the Navy in 1988, I suggested we settle someplace

else but we didn't.

Recently Miz O has said that retirement in Denmark might have been nice. My father was born in Odense around 1890, came to the US as a young man and became a citizen, and was in the US Army in the WW1 period.

But alas, we are both of an age where such a move would be difficult.

Good wishes to your kids.

[Raine]

37. Wishing all the best of luck

I would like to leave but have too many ties here, family and property.

[depakid]

38. We could surely use your expertise down under

Plenty of cool plants and animals here (my bet is that you'd be blown away by the diversity of the Southwest). That and of course the paucity of fundies.

There are a couple of different retirement visa classes available, which as I recall, allow for work.

For what it's worth, Ms. Depa & I think your family is making a wise decision and wish you all the best of luck.

[proteus_lives]

39. Bye.

:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. ...

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. ...liftoff! We have a liftoff!

[cynatnite]

40. Good luck to you and your family....

It's a very personal decision for someone to make and I honestly can't see it being an easy one. If a person feels strongly enough that the country they were born in and love no longer exists and they do not believe they can be happy any longer, I don't blame him or her for making a choice to leave.

People move all the time for a variety of reasons from one state to another. It's no different than when a person moves to another country, IMO.

So, good luck to you and your family. I wish you the best and hope we get to hear from you again. :hi:

[mike_c]

52. well, as I said, only the kids are leaving in January....

We won't be leaving for another several years.

[progressiveinaction]

41. What about somewhere in Africa?

You or your daughter could go there and help out dying children.

I would like to do it but can't afford it. I don't need any of this "modern" stuff we have here, I would enjoy going there and helping out some of the least fortunate people in the world. Something like 17,000 kids die of starvation everyday?

Have you thought about spending the rest of your days there? That would be fulfilling.

[dionysus]

42. bye. don't write.

[JI7]

43. hahhah

[Doctor_J]

45. Trying to talk my SO into getting out

We have some money, lots of education, in-demand jobs. There is nothing lft for us here.

[MellowDem]

47. Don't worry, we have more new immigrants coming!

Many if not most of which would never in a million years be accepted by Denmark. I think we'll be good.

:hi:

[MajorChode]

48. There's a few problems you might run into

Many countries don't allow for dual citizenship, which means you will have to renounce your US citizenship if you want to become a citizen of that country. If you don't become a citizen, you'll run into visa rules which may require you to periodically return to the US. If you do renounce your US citizenship, and live abroad, you may not be able to collect your SS retirement benefit.

[mike_c]

54. no, we'll just be expats-- the kids are immigrating....

They have much less invested here than we do, and they'll come out ahead in the end with Danish citizenship. My SIL already has dual citizenship in the U.S. and the U.K.

[TBF]

50. Best wishes to them -

and to your entire family. My husband has British citizenship so I am pushing for London. Their "austerity" is going to be as bad as ours over here, but at least they still have health care. His office has a London office so there's a chance we'll be able to do it. My children are young (both under 8), and I'd love for them to live in Europe at least for a few years and be exposed to different perspectives.

[northernlights]

51. I've been headed the same way

re-training in a field that will enable me to leave via something like Drs w/out borders or Peace Corp in my final working years, and then retire as expat. Central or South America call to me, too, as an ex-pat in a colony of ex-pats. From the reading I've done, you can have your social security check deposited directly into your foreign bank account, and a little goes a long way. Since I've lost my retirement savings to long-term unemployment and fraud, and don't expect to be able to save much in the next few years (and fear it would be a waste, since I was already robbed of so much) I'm planning for a quiet retirement in a small mountain city in the Andes. Moderate year-round climate with fresh fruits and veggies year round appeals.

Just waiting for the training to finish and the majority of the fur-kids to pass on so I can travel light...

[bikebloke]

53. My idea from 30 years ago.

I saw something better in Europe and wanted to immigrate. Notably Sweden for its social democracy. Much easier said than done. I spent a lot of time wandering Europe, wintering out in Israel, working on a kibbutz and moshav. No luck. Not with New Zealand either. I guess I'm stuck here, though I keep hoping there might be some way to go.

[lunatica]

55. Now Europe is the Great Melting Pot

We've come a long way haven't we, with our open arms and Statue of Liberty. Now we are the country people are leaving to find a better life.

:sarcasm:

[NJmaverick]

57. Most likely you are going to find that the grass is always greener

that as long as a government is made up of flawed human beings, it's going to be far from perfect. Different problems no doubt, but no less numerous or serious.

[Wednesdays]

59. *Big Sigh* How do I talk my wife into doing the same?

I'm dead serious. I want so bad to pack up and move...I love this country, but I've had enough of being surrounded by wingnuts and fundies. Trouble is, my wife has always been one to never want to try something new (unless it's the latest gadget phone). Even though she votes a straight Dem ticket, she'd never allow herself or our kid to pack up and move to the next county, let alone to another country.

:banghead:

Any magical subliminal messages I could sneak to her while she's asleep? :shrug:

[femrap]

60. South America seems to be the place

to head....they're really working toward social justice and inclusion for all. Morales elected in Bolivia was huge. Brazil seems to be doing find economically. Argentina has 24 hour Tango!

You seem to have a great plan. Good luck. I'm envious.

[treestar]

61. You'll still be an American

You may be an outsider there, but then won't the people there consider you an American and responsible for what the US does? Are you going to vote by mail?

[Robeson]

62. I envy you. Best of luck and good wishes.

[wiggs]

63. My daughter was in northern europe the last 5 months...

...stayed in Copenhagen (and would go back...loved it). She also found munich, berlin, and lisbon wonderful.

She appreciated the different lifestyle emphasis: being with friends and family, long meals, social weekends, culture, events, food, knowledge of world events, etc.. Much less emphasis on work, house and car improvements, size of house.

[saracat]

64. I desperately want to leave as well but right now till either hubby or myself get a job, we are

stuck. We had an opportunity to move in 2000 and I wanted to go. but I thought things would turn around. We had another in 2004 and like a loon I allowed myself to be talked into staying.If another opportunity comes along I will NREVER , NEVER listen to those who persuade me to stay again. My first inclination to get out was correct. Sigh. WE most likely would have been better off finacially had we moved and I certainly wouldn't be constantly hurt or betrayed as I would be an "outsider" as you say. But unfortunately , at the moment, relocation seems a distant dream. Best of luck to your daughter, her husband and you guys when you are able to make the move! And, please DO write. Your experiences will be meaningful.

[snooper2]

68. Can I have their SUV?

:evilgrin:

[otohara]

69. Will She Renounce Her US Citizenship?

I know of many American's who live in Argentina for as long as they can because it's cheap, cheap, cheap.

The rich ones buy up the land and there goes the neighborhood -

[Kievan Rus]

71. I can't wait to leave this country behind myself

Good for them.

Europe may be far from perfect, but I'd take it (or any other Western country, for that matter) over this one.

[SunnySong]

72. Denmark is an excellent country. Best of luck to them. For a white couple only the Netherlands

strikes me as a better choice.

[donco6]

73. I have to wait about 6 years.

But it's in my plan. Hopefully it won't be too late.

[hippywife]

74. Congrats to all of you!

I mean it. I wish we were in a position to do the same and have wished that for some time now. :hi: :hug: