The mormon church considered blacks an "inferior race" prior to 1965

[Herman Munster]

Bill Maher mentioned this tidbit on his HBO show this week. I wonder what Mitt Romney has to say about this.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. the elders, according to church doctrine,

can have revelations from God that allows them to change rules and practices. Supposedly Joseph Smith had a revelation that Mormon men could have more than one wife. And Brigham Young, ca 1890, had a revelation that the practice was to stop.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. mormons are the masters of the convienent revelation

[Manifestor_of_Light]

They were required to drop polygamy to be admitted to the union

Supreme Court case in 1890. Their laws had to be consistent with the rest of the union. One wife, one husband.

Just because polygamy is not legal doesn't mean they don't practice it.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. Dupe, please delete.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

44. If you want to know about shunning, look up Sonia Johnson.

She was a lifelong Mormon who started asking questions and was excommunicated some years ago.

[iverglas]

64. ah, now there's a loon ;)

No disrespect intended, but -- she looks good on paper, but I've been in a small room with her for a few hours, and I couldn't wait to get out and contemplate some reality. I believe she thought that the notion that the Mormon church was patriarchal was her own original idea. She was Paglia-like in her self-absorption and self-reverence.

A clue in the paper bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonia_Johnson
is that "short-lived separatist commune for women that disbanded in 1993". It would have been the early 80s when I attended her talk at a community centre, with a friend who thought she sounded interesting. There was much talk of howling at the moon.

[Betty]

36. like mitt's revelation that gays shouldn't have any rights

and that women shouldn't be allowed to have control over their own bodies. He's not a flip flopper, he's just had "revelations".

[napi21]

2. Their attitude toward blacks is just one thing. They also preach you should

ignore Catholics because they're a cult who worship idols. I hate to use someone's religion against them, but those beliefs really are still real in the strong Mormon religion, and if publicizine this info can turn all Catholics and Blacks against him, het...politics isn't a cake walk!

[bumblebee1]

39. There is one thing missing here:

The Catholic Church was established long before the Mormon Church was even an idea in Joseph Smith's head. You could probably say the same thing about Judaism, Islam and the eastern faiths.

[undeterred]

51. "their attitude"

Do you really belive all Mormons are the same?
Are all Catholics the same?
Are all Jews the same?
Are all Democrats the same?
Are all Blacks the same?
Are all Whites the same?

I spent 8 months working for a wonderful progressive Mormon Democratic candidate last year and not a single one of you would have given him a chance if the first thing you heard about him was that he was a Mormon. Most people never even knew that about him. The anti-Mormon bigotry here is astounding.

[LostInAnomie]

3. Most Republicans still do...

... so it won't bother them a bit.

[Reterr]

7. Yeah I don't see a disconnect there

:shrug:

This is the party of George "Macaca" Allen...Why would they care?

[kevinmc]

4. Later than that it was 1978 ....

Black Skin and the Seed of Cain

By Bill McKeever

In June of 1978, the LDS-owned Deseret News newspaper printed an announcement by the LDS First Presidency stating that God, by revelation, would now allow all worthy male members in the LDS Church to receive the priesthood as well as "blessings of the temple." (Deseret News, 6/9/78, 1A). This "revelation," known as Official Declaration 2, can be found in printed form at the end of the Doctrine and Covenants.

To understand why this announcement was of such extreme importance, it is necessary to go back in time to what Mormons refer to as the pre-existence. According to LDS theology, the God of Mormonism, Elohim, resides near a star called Kolob where he lives with his many heavenly wives. Together they are producing millions upon millions of spirit children. ......

http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/black-skin-and-seed-cain

[iverglas]

5. what Mitt Romney said about it

The night before the televised debate he was on one of those late-night talk shows. He said that when he heard the news that the racial inferiority doctrine was being abandoned, he was listening to the radio while driving, and did something voteworthy like pull over and cry, I think it was. He said that the doctrine on that subject had always caused him pain or sorrow or some such thing.

Funny. If I belonged to an organization that espoused a doctrine that caused me that kind of pain or sorrow or whatever, I'd quit.

[Rosemary2205]

9. "Quitting" isn't an easy option for Mormons.

From birth on they are indoctrinated that "the elders" are all "Prophets, seers and revelators". In fact, all "worthy men" who hold the priesthood are told they have the ability to recieve divine revelations concerning their lives, families and for those they are given authority over.

This certainly isn't the only religion that teaches we can have individual direct communication with God (or a god) but with Mormonism you have the added component of eternal families. Disobedience, excommunication from the Mormon church, voluntarily leaving the church, all mean that someone loses their entire extended family for all of eternity. To non mormons this sounds like a big nothing, but to someone indoctrinated in Mormonism this is a terrifying prospect.

In addition, failure to practice blind obedience or any questioning of authority is met with a form of shunning by the mormon community. Since these folks tend to stick together as a community it can be formidable to leave everything someone knows, lose an entire support system, perhaps lose a home and a job and a family to go start over someplace else. People manage to do it, but it's extremely difficult and without some form of good support from outside it can be next impossible to successfully break free of Mormonism.

[iverglas]

12. wellll

I'd have a pretty hard time voting for someone who managed to become governor of Massachusetts but couldn't get it up to leave a church. ;)

I do know how cult-like the LDS is, of course. I just figure that somebody who can decide that reproductive choice is a bad idea for reasons as incoherent as this guy's should be able to handle institutionalized racism being a bad idea.

[Ilsa]

19. "... failure to practice blind obedience or any questioning of

...authority is met with a form of shunning..." Isn't that part of the definition of a cult?

[Bucky]

28. "I pulled my car over and cried." That's fucking brilliant.

But if he said, "I pulled my car over and hugged the first black man I could find... and today that man is right here in the audience! Come on down and let me hug you again, Dr. Cosby!" he'd be a genius. And president by now.

[trotsky]

60. "he did something voteworthy"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[msongs]

6. they also herd latinos around like cattle....

my backwall butts up against a mormon church recreation area.

yesterday was latinos day. about 50 adults and children of the latino persuasion, with 3 pairs of white guys in short sleeve white shirts and ties keeping an eye on them. one family of woman/man/2 kids headed for their car with all their belongings and the white shirts surrounded them and talked at them for 5 minutes, then the family came back to the "party".

the truth is how they talk amongst themselves when they forget others can hear them over the wall.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[theoldman]

8. So how does this make them different from present day

Baptist? Many Baptists still believe that most other races are inferior to whites. It's just not official in their churches.

[iamjoy]

10. Truth - theoldman

My Mom grew up in Florida in the sixties and when all the fuss about the civil rights movement was going on, one of her "friends" said blacks were inferior. It was said so casually, so shamelessly and with such certainty. And my Mom was like "what are you talking about?" and the girl said that's what her minister told her.

So, lets not make the Mormons out like they're so far behind the times because it was 1978 before they officially accepted dark skinned people as equal. It was less than a generation after the civil rights movement, and since Mormons are generally concentrated in areas with a smaller African American population, its possible there was less pressure on them to let go of bigotry.

Mind you, I'm not defending bigotry, just saying that as a country we aren't so far from systematically denying rights to African Americans that we should judge the time when any group abandoned racist policy.

[seaglass]

15. Mormons were purposely converting blacks in other countries so it

isn't the case that black people were not members of the church or that Mormons weren't exposed to them prior to 1978.

[Hamlette]

38. they could be members they just couldn't "hold the priesthood" which every boy does at age 12

blacks couldn't "hold the priesthood". Since mormons also run the boy scouts, you couldn't be a leader of your troop unless you held the priesthood and you couldn't hold the priesthood if you were black so the NAACP sued the boy scouts for being racist. At the same time mormons were trying to open a temple in South America someplace and they were having trouble because you can't get into a temple if you don't hold the priesthood and there was much criticism in the South American country about the church opening a temple that many "natives" couldn't get into.

Also, there were some rebel bishops who were unlawfulling "giving" the priesthood to blacks. It was making the news here. The church didn't know what to do about it.

So....God told the mormons he'd been wrong. Or they'd been wrong. Or God changed his mind. It was announced the day the boy scout law suit was set for trial.

Now...I'd not want to suggest that God was influenced by the negative publicity surrounding the opening of a temple in South America or being involved in the boy scout law suit...it was probably just a coincidence.

[seaglass]

62. Right. I didn't think that the point that Mormons lived in areas

where there weren't as many black people was any excuse for their racism since they specifically went on missions to convert black people.

[Hamlette]

65. they aren't looking for blacks, per se, they are looking to convert rich people

no shit. The honest ones will admit they are told told to convert "influential" members of the societies they are sent in to because those influential members will influence others after missionaries leave. I say they are converting rich people to get their 10% but then I'm a cynic.

I think they have expanded since it is not so easy to convert people as it was 30 years ago with a few exceptions like the Karen Hilltribe people of Thailand who all convert. Of course, they convert to all religions and don't believe you can/should only belong to one religion. But it swells the ranks and you see lots of Mormon missionaries in the Hilltribe regions of Thailand. I'd be thinking they don't get 10% to the church.

(Having lived with mormons all my life let me say they are not as bad as fundamentalists (although it looks like Romney is out to make them look that bad). My big gripe is their missionary program which is focused on converting people and, to my knowledge, doesn't have as a goal "good deads" in poor countries like some other missionary programs did. My position on religion has hardened since 9/11 and I don't see it as harmless like I did before.)

[Critters2]

22. Martin Luther King was a Baptist.

Generalize much?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

40. National Baptists (black) split from Southern Baptists (white) over slavery.

The Southern Baptists supported slavery because it was in the Bible.

The National Baptists are the Black denomination. Churches are commonly known as Missionary Baptist.

Same thing with the American Bar Association (white) and the National Bar Association (black).

And the American Medical Association (white) and the National Medical Association (black).

AFAIK, this does not apply to the National Baseball League and the American Baseball League.


"The Washington Senators -- First in the Hearts of their Countrymen and Last in the American League".

Pardon my derailment. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion......

[iverglas]

52. and to his everlasting credit

Jimmy Carter (and Rosalyn, to her own credit) left the Southern Baptists some years ago over modern-day intolerance.

He was older and wiser than Mitt Romney, of course.

I give up; is it Rosalyn or Rosalynn?

[Critters2]

67. The American Baptist Churches (white) also opposed slavery

and split with the Southern Baptists over the issue. My points was that not all Baptists are racist.

[dsa]

11. i don't think romney is responsible for what the mormon church said

before 1965 anymore than i'm responsible for what the pope said during the spanish inquisition.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. Uh huh.

[RiDuvessa]

14. Agreed.

Just like all Muslims should not be held accountable for what a few extremist Imams say, especially if they speak against the doctrine.

[iverglas]

18. uh, who suggested he should?

Ah, the distortions, the distortions.

You got a problem with holding someone responsible for what he does? Like, belonging to an organization that was overtly racist, in theory and practice?

He did. I would not have. I don't know whether you would have. And I don't think you were a member of the RC church during the Inquisition. He was a member of his church in 1965. He was born in 1947. When I was 18 (in 1970), I had left my own church nearly 3 years before, because I simply didn't believe what it taught anymore. I don't think I would have waited quite that long if it had refused to ordain people of colour, or women, at a time when that was no longer respectable. It simply wasn't respectable, in 1965, for a church to espouse racism. I expect my political leaders to have at least as much intelligence and integrity as I have, high standard though that may be.

He's ever so lucky that his church changed its mind. He still doesn't seem to have explained why he chose to be a member of it before it did.

Heck, maybe he was an activist for change within his church on this issue; that would be reasonably honourable. One would think he might have mentioned that, if so.

[dsa]

35. i don't agree with everything my church teaches either

does that mean i should just leave?

[iverglas]

37. I don't actually care

Why should I, and why do you ask? Are you running for a head of state position somewhere? Does your church teach something completely contrary to respect for human beings and respect for human rights?

Does your church teach that people of colour are inferior, and deny them positions of authority? Yes, you should leave.

Ditto re women or GLBT people? Yes, you should leave.

Is it opposed to women having the legal ability to exercise reproductive choice? Yup, you should leave. Does it interfere with people's access to contraception or divorce or anything else they have a human right to access, by exerting improper influence on governments or international bodies? Yup, you should leave.

My ex church passes those tests. I don't know about yours. Maybe it doesn't, and you're working hard to fix it. Probably not worth the bother, if so, but best of luck.

[H2O Man]

54. If we applied

that same standard to the United States, then should people leave? Surely there is some evidence that before, say, 1965, that the United States subscribed to the theories and practices of racism. Would that mean that people who are not racist today should up and leave? Or might it be acceptable that people who are not raciist stay, and try to live their lives in a way that helps change our society into a more tolerant place for everyone to live?

[iverglas]

55. well, that sure makes sense

If we applied
that same standard to the United States, then should people leave?

And go ... where?

I don't think that membership in the United States -- citizenship -- is one of those voluntary associative things. Really.

People do come to Canada and renounce their US citizenship from time to time. The US lets people do this, whereas no (other) civilized country in the world does, for the simple reason that it leaves people stateless and without international protection ... and makes them the de facto responsibility of states that never volunteered for the job. Like Canada, which is technically stuck with them if they enter Canada after renouncing their citizenship (say, before passports were required, or on a no longer valid passport). I had several clients in this situation when I was in practice as an immigration lawyer. They were all quite nuts, of course.

Leave the Mormon church -- or the RC church, or the local bowling league -- and go wherever you want, or nowhere at all. Just not quite the same thing.

So really; you may not have intended it as such, but it's a silly question.

[H2O Man]

56. Really?

So people can't leave the US? I think that your answer is silly.

[iverglas]

57. Here, I won't say silly

Really?
So people can't leave the US?

Well, I guess that if you think that, you are silly.

You're the one saying it. Nobody else said it. So if, on the other hand, you are insinuating that someone else said it, you're nasty.

If you want to say it yourself, drop the stupid question mark.

If you want to say whether that's what I said, ask a question.

If you want to say that that's what I said, have the guts to say so. Your statement will be a falsehood, but at least you'll have had the decency not to have hidden behind a question mark in making it.

Whatever.

Now you feel free to tell me where people might go if they wanted to leave the US. I'm not aware of any country in the world that just lets people with foreign citizenship move in and stay, without applying and being accepted. And you may not know it, I guess, but few countries in the world say "hell yes, c'mon down, the weather's fine, just move right on in" when a USAmerican decides it's time to leave home. In fact, I don't know of any. Especially if said USAmerican decides to renounce his/her US citizenship (which is what genuinely leaving the US, i.e. giving up membership in it, would actually mean). No country in the world actually wants stateless persons floating around within its borders.

[dsa]

72. thanks for backing me up water man

i was afraid i was going to have to move to canada and join a cult for a second there...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. He's not the first Mormon high ranking politician. Ezra Taft Benson.

Ezra Taft Benson was President of the Mormon Church and also Secretary of Agriculture under Eisenhower, both terms.

[SaveElmer]

16. Let's all remember that Harry Reid is a Mormon...

They are not monolithic...

[BrotherBuzz]

26. So is John Doolittle

Apparently they come in all stripes, but my observations are that a majority of Mormons tend to have a very conservative bent.

[Bucky]

27. Also Donny Osmand

I'm not sure that helps the debate, but I really like Donnny.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

42. Orrin Hatch too is a Mormon.

Marie Osmond has EIGHT children and is getting her SECOND divorce!!!

Oh quel horreur!!!

[Solo_in_MD]

69. There was a rumor going around that she might replace Rosie on The View

[Wiley50]

34. By the same token

I'm sure that many of our Dems are on the take from the corporations

"

[undeterred]

49. There are plenty of progressive Mormons

but you'd never know it from reading the ignorant posts at DU.

[and-justice-for-all]

17. Did anyone watch CNN this monring???

Mittens was on talking about the 'misconcetions of mormonism'. Which him just happened to leave the facts.

A) its a cultist religion b) founding by John Smith whom was utterly insane and c) those golden plates were never mentioned by mittens and d) neither was the tale of the mysterious Jewish colony from NY state..

Do not get me started on the Book Of Mormon....Its worse then the bible or koran.

Ps: NO PREACHERS FOR PRESIDENT!

[Christa]

23. Agree - dammit, I thought church and state were seperated

I don't want a christian as a president, neither a muslim or a jew - I want a level headed intelligent person who would be able to string a sentence together for a change.

[Arugula Latte]

33. I agree that it's a cult, but basically so are all religions.

The stuff about the golden plates is just as irrational/unlikely/magical as most "mainstream" Christian beliefs. When you think about it, believing that Jesus rose from the dead and pushed back a rock, etc. is just as "out there" as the golden plate stuff.

[and-justice-for-all]

47. I am not to worried about mittens...

...He does not have a chance at even being nominated or even win in '08...Mittens is so far right-conservative he sound like a facist pig. Its going to come down to McCain, Obama and Clinton and so far I wouldnt vote for any of them, not with the crap they have been serving lately with the 'military buildup' bullshit.

[iverglas]

53. from a foreign perspective

-- we watched him on that late-night talk show, and on the televised debate -- the Republicans would be nuts not to nominate this guy. He's their "it" boy; he's got charisma. Smooth, suave and silver-tongued, as well as having the obligatory silver spoon in his mouth. Head and shoulders, literally, above the rest of 'em.

Various factions in the party might not like him, but who else are they going to vote for? (I know, getting out the vote is an issue, of course.) And I can see the apolitical population falling for him.

It is to be hoped that the party fails to put its interests above its interest groups, I guess.

[RL3AO]

21. Mormons are sure taking alot of crap on here lately.

[Scurrilous]

24. Well..

..we wouldn't want them to feel left out.

[Bucky]

29. An example of how Democrat are intolerant of religion? Oops, wrong thread.

:hide:

[Solo_in_MD]

70. Its their turn in the dunk tank. I think the JWs are up next week, followed by

the Unitarians

[sniffa]

25. then they reaLized they were missing out on

another money source.

[Dorian Gray]

30. This is well known.

And thankfully the church doesn't stand by that belief any longer. Mitt Romney should condemn that belief like many other modern day Mormons do.

[MadBadger]

32. I'm sure he does

He doesnt need to make a press release saying that.

[Kelly Rupert]

31. He'd certainly say

that was a relic of an earlier, less-tolerant day which was both offensive and embarrassing to all persons of faith, and which was rightly discarded as totally incorrect a generation ago.

[Solo_in_MD]

71. Actually he can't say that since it would impune everything else

that particular Mormon leader said and those who came after him who supported it. The church has never admitted they were in error, just that there was a new revelation.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. Typical xtians. Penis = wisdom.

Yawn. Male dominance of all women and children.

We should not have to argue about that in the 21st century.

[semillama]

58. Penis Wisdom would be a good name for a band. n/t

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

46. Yeah, and now Satchmo has replaced Moroni atop the Temple! n/t

[MadHound]

48. So? Many current evangelical, especially rural, Protestant demoninations

Still consider this to be the case. There are many, many of these churches throughout the Midwest and South. Granted, they aren't an organized sect like the Mormons, but I'm willing to bet that their numbers are as large, if not larger, than the Mormons.

[JNelson6563]

50. They claimed it was the "mark of Cain"

But when your mission is to build tithe paying membership, well sometimes that calls for an adjustment in policy. Mark of Cain or no, their money's green.

Julie

[mainegreen]

59. So did half of american Protestantism. Screw that: so did half of America.

Not just the Mormons. One thing I'll give them: their 'continual revelation' that allows their religion to liberalize with the times. I'd like to see the other branches of Old Yahweh's faiths do that.

[sheerjoy]

61. Indeed....

all of America felt that way... no need to point fingers ONLY at the mormon bunch. (no, I am not one of them)

[MisterHowdy]

63. WWJD

thats what I'm thinking.
I don't think Jesus stood for racism and intolerance.
I also don't think Jesus would support war either.

The Morman Church is Joke.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. This may be news to some.

Just about everybody considered blacks as an "inferior race" prior to 1965.

[Solo_in_MD]

68. Was it codified in their formal religeous doctrine?

[HardRocker05]

73. this is standard christianity; they still consider women to be an 'inferior race.' nt