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Want to fix the debt problem ...reduce the fucking defense spending!

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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:06 PM
Original message
Want to fix the debt problem ...reduce the fucking defense spending!
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 10:09 PM by L0oniX
For fucks sake ..the fucking Russians are spending 50 billion total this year ...WTF ...there is no justification for the US spending over a fucking trillion dollars on defense. Fuck them and fuck everything they fucking stand for!

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/mo-...

Russia's budget spending on state defense orders will amount to 1.2 trillion rubles ($46.8 billion) in 2009, first deputy prime minister Sergei Ivanov said on 12 September 2008. The spending figure is outlined in the Russian budget for 2009-2011 which was due to be considered by Russia's lower house of parliament, the State Duma, on September 19. The three-year budget envisaged additional spending of 170 billion rubles ($6.63 billion) in comparison to previous annual programs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_Uni...

When the budget was signed into law on October 28, 2009, the final size of the Department of Defense's budget was $680 billion, $16 billion more than President Obama had requested.<3><4> An additional $33 billion supplemental bill to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was expected to pass in the spring of 2010, but has been delayed by the House of Representatives after passing the Senate.<5><6> Defense-related expenditures outside of the Department of Defense constitute between $216 billion and $361 billion in additional spending, bringing the total for defense spending to between $880 billion and $1.03 trillion in fiscal year 2010.

Talk about screwing us out of our SS retirement ....your fucking pyramid scheme. Ship our good mother fucking jobs over seas and hire illegals to work for slave wages. Make sure we don't see what atrocities our military is committing in the name of the MIC. Lie to us during your propaganda election campaigns you sons of the devil. Take the blood money from these sociopath corporations for your government jobs.

Get the fuck out of all the Islamic countries ...you will never stop them from driving out the infidels (us). They will fight us down to the last person. Ya know what ...GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES WHO WANT TO SPEND THIS MONEY ON WAR AND KILLING!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yea I am pissed and for good reason.
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lob1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. The deficit hawks want to cut everything but the
obvious. S.S. and medicare always come up first.
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droidamus2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
71. Isn't that the plan
It is a win/win situation for the cons if they can keep people in fear and convinced we need to spend massive amounts of money on 'defense'. Much of that money gets returned to the Republican party as campaign and party donations. In the meantime it gives them the excuse that the budget should be balanced and the only way to accomplish it (remember we aren't allowed to raise taxes) is to cut all those programs the damn Republicans never wanted in the first place. That's the big clue people when the Repugnican party says we need to cut a program look back and see how they voted on it when it was first established. I would be willing to wager that over 90% of the time they voted against the program to begin with. The cons never really compromise and they never give up that is their over arching desire to keep going until we do everything their way. Their way is what makes them rich and powerful and the rest of us nothing but serfs to fulfill their every need.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. DUH! Someone tell the Emperor he is f**kin naked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This country could provide education, health care, housing, better mass transit, better roads, alternative energy and everything else we need just using the money that is being spent by the military

I believe the statistic is that this country spends more money on its "defense" budget than every other nation in the world combined.

That is truly and literally sickening.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Defense is seen by the other side as the only appropriate...
stimulus package, so it is never easy to cut Pentagon money.



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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Doing the right thing is rarely easy to do when the government is entrenched with corporate ghouls.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
28. It's a little more complicated than that-- just about every Congressional district...
has some defense contracting work going on in it. When the time to cut comes, no Congressman wants to see jobs lost in his or her district, hence the resistance to cutting even things the Pentagon doesn't want or need.

Remember base closings? It wasn't "corporate ghouls" but the billions in economic activity generated around military bases that made closing any so hard.

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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
63. It is an entitlement.
An entitlement so firmly entrenched that it isn't even recognized as one. And there is no fucking justification for this level of spending.

We all know the Iraq War was completely unjustified and waged for profit. The Afghanistan War is nearly as bad. We could have accomplished as much by special opps and clandestine action as we have through all these lives and spending. Both wars were horrible judgment all the way.
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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. Unfortunately, it stands about as much chance of happening as the other real solution.
Taxing religious institutions like the businesses they are.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Then expect this country to continue its downward slide.
The squeaking wheel gets the oil. We all need to squeak until it's hurting their ears.
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godai Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. The US Empire will collapse. No longer can afford this.

The worlds top 5 largest military budgets in 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_milit...
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Amazing isn't it? It's just crazy to be spending so much more than everyone else.
Even if our cold war enemies combined forces they would still be out spent by an absurd amount.
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AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
91. Even if our cold war enemies combined forces they would still be out spent by an absurd amount.
And our current enemies just had to buy box cutters to bring us to our knees.... where we still are.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Maybe if they changed the name to Department of Empire ...
At least we would be using the English language correctly. As it is "defense" department is a joke to anyone young and un-indoctrinated enough to actually understand English.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Department of Imperialist American Exceptionalist Empire.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
67. So much for that "end of the cold war" benefit
Wasn't that one of the great things that was supposed to come out of the breakup of the Soviet Union? That finally BOTH nations would be able to stop spending so much of their GNP on military budgets? It seems like only Russia got the memo.

Truly a sickening graph, if you think about what kind of nation the USA could be if they even cut that budget in half, to spend on healthcare, education, and infrastructure.

But of course the elite class does not want a strong middle class, or any kind of proof that a public service would be beneficial, which it would be if it was funded properly.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. LOL
I'm still waiting for my "Peace Dividend".
.
.
We ARE screwn.
We ARE an "empire" in rapid decline,
and we are well beyond the point of no return.
I had some "HOPE" in 2008,
but that is gone now.
Obama and the "Centrist" Democrats are not interested in fixing anything,
just making a few minor adjustment to nurse a few more miles out of the "Free Markets"/Perpetual WAR" junker before the wheels fall off completely.

.
.
What to do? :shrug:

My wife and I are learning how to live better by consuming Less,
and converting our remaining assets into things that provide food & shelter,
but beyond that, I don't have an answer.


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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. Aren't we fighting for our Freedom and Liberty here at home?
thats what the vets and war lovers say, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

I suspect the MIC told BHO that if he ends the wars, he will be history just like JFK.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Those same poor mislead pawns also swore to defend the constitution.
What part of torture do they think they defending the constitution? Freedom of speech would mean that we should be able to see the results of war and those innocent and guilty dead so what part of freedom of speech in the constitution are they defending? Creating more terrorists by the murder of the innocent ...hmmm ...fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here? Occupying Islamic countries who consider us to be infidels ...uhm what part of constitution relating to freedom of religion are they defending? Oh it's only applied to us and not them. I am sick of the idiotic statements of defending this country and its constitution. It pure brain washing hypocrisy.

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children." - Dwight Eisenhower

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.- Abbie Hoffman


Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

Become an internationalist and learn to respect all life. Make war on machines. And in particular the sterile machines of corporate death and the robots that guard them. -Abbie Hoffman

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotismhow passionately I hate them! Albert Einstein
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. My eternally fucked in the head congressmen assures me...
... to stay that course until we effectively do something to keep our enemies from coming at us, or some such blithering shit. I'm sick to death of his automated "reply" messages. These asses are having their town hall meetings and it's amazing the amount of sunshine you can pump up a bunch of Medicare aged folks, who are the only ones able to make those meetings.

I keep telling him, "Come again? Now, who is our enemy in Afghanistan?", or, "How many times did you vote for funding these "off the budget" clusterfuck wars under Bush?" or, "come again???? When did you decide that we were spending too much money in Washington????"
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txlibdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-14-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
100. Try being a liberal in Texas
If you think your congressmen are working against your best interests.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
11. K&R
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Actually they have a very good plan
We are told that we need to tighten our belts so we can spend the money on the military
to protect this country from terrorists. Everyday as we kill one terrorist ten more pop up.
In ten - fifteen years when it is finally determined that we killed as many as we could
the troops will come home.
They will come home to a population that can not think for themselves because the education system
is broken. All the money went to for-profit admins. Roads, bridges are falling apart because no money was available to fix them.
The media is telling how now we are finally safe. Because the only things left in this country are broken down people with slave labor wages if they can find a job, fat cat politicians telling everyone what a fine job they are doing, but don't worry about voting because that is all taken care of.
The super rich will have moved to other countries because there is nothing left here for them to rape, they have just moved on to greener pastures. The churches will be telling the people not to worry because god has a plan but they can not tell the people because it is a secret and they do not want to spoil the surprise. But give money now.
The troops will come home to a safe country now because no one in their right mind would want to try to kill us or take over the country because there will be nothing left.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. In other words ...there will be nothing left to fight for.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. It is getting to that point
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Department of Defense is the most untouchable of our Sacred Cows. K&R
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. They worship the golden calve.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
33. Unfortunately, you are correct
Even liberal Democrats fight for defense programs that touch their home states, and many of these conglomerates that make things for Defense have jobs in so many states (and countries) that a defense program cut is almost sure to touch a state with a Democratic senator and several Dem representatives.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. First step is for congress and the president to revise NIE threat so DOD cannot justify its budget
by showing it is vital to counter the National Intelligence Estimate threat approved by congress and the president.

Either that or the president speaking for congress explain to We the People that DOD's budget is necessary to counter the threat identified by Ultra Top Secret information, and voters will just have to trust him and them.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Spending a trillion on defense is a threat to this countries security.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. Do you know what the NIE is and how it is used? n/t
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fix our plutocratic health system
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 11:08 PM by Juche
If we spent 10% of GDP on health care instead of 18% (all other OECD wealthy nations spend 8-11% on health care) that alone would pretty much fix/solve the deficit projections.

Of our $50-100 trillion in unfunded liabilities into the future, about 60-80% are health care related. Medicare, medicaid, SCHIP, VA, etc.

Fix healthcare and make it as efficient as the european systems, raise the cap on FICA taxes. Doing that would fix the long term deficits.

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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I am pretty much convinced they will not do what needs to be done in our best interests.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Absolutely K&R !! //nt
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-11-10 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. Bring the troops home yesterday....
Edited on Sun Jul-11-10 11:49 PM by lib2DaBone
Also.. quit letting these companies offshore our jobs.. and then re-import all their cheap Chinese junk back into our country!

Slap a tariff on all that crap. Change the 'friggin tax laws that reward off shoring.. simple.. done with the stroke of a pen.

A bunch of morans (sic) in Washington.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. A good start would be if no one joined the military.
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
39. With high unemployment rates it is guaranteed that people will join,
they have few other choices.
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Hatchling Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
93. The Poverty Draft. nt
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cstanleytech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
27. Cant say I agree with the whole pyramid rant
or the rant about getting out of the middle-east (they seem willing to take the money for their oil we give them after all) but the whole defense spending issue you are right about, its just staggering that we are spending so much more than Russia.
Even discounting the costs of the 2 wars we are engaged in now the overspending the politicians are allowing the military to engage in should be a crime considering the current economic problems we are facing as a nation.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
29. We've been on a
permanent war footing since the Department of War became the Department of Defense. The War Department was fully funded only during the time of war declared by Congress. When Congress abdicated its war powers and ceded them to the President they opened the door for the Military Industrial Complex to loot the treasury and also make "campaign contributions" into selected Swiss bank accounts.
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spiritual_gunfighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
30. The Deficit hawks goal is to cut entitlement spending period.
I think the whole thing is a means to an end with entitlement cuts the primary goal. They know where they could cut things (e.g. defense) but they dont even bring that up.

Harold Ford Jr. was on MTP yesterday and the first thing he said in regards to the deficit is that Obama needs to cut entitlement spending and get behind that idea.

These people make me fucking sick.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
65. Every advocate of cutting entitlements
is already very wealthy.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
31. they won't do it, they never fucking do it. war machines trump life itself.
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burnsei sensei Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
32. Cutting and re-directing defense spending
is a much better idea than starving the American people.
Taxing the excessive profits of the allied health care industries may also be an option.
The less money people have, the greater the deflationary pressure on the economy will become.
Make them any more desperate and this economy will implode on Main Street.
A loaf of bread for 3 cents, anyone?


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h9socialist Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
35. I agree with this 1000%
But does anybody have any ideas for getting the cuts through Congress???? Otherwise, it may take a real revolution -- and quite frankly that's not a high-probability in our time.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
36. Here's an idea
Simply cutting defence spending to be equal to the next nine countries (i.e. the rest of teh top ten) combined would save over $150 billion annually. And it could easily be done without affecting troop levels or effectiveness in the slightest. The dirty secret of defence spending is that most of it has little to do with actually paying or supplying the troops. The biggest expenditures are on weapon systems (many of which are obsolete, unnecessary or unworkable) and the outsourcing of many of the functions which the military has traditionally done for itself (i.e. laundry and catering). Reverse the outsourcing and eliminate the more wasteful weapons programs and that $150 billion a year is small change.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
48. I notice that there aren't stats for how much Al-Qaida or the Taliban spends.
My guess is that it is less than any other country. Pathetic isn't it.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
68. Good point. They keep using al Qaida as their excuse
___ al Qaida
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
98. Less "pathetic", more "misguided"
The US military is still set-up to fight large scale territory based wars but the chances of teh US actually being involved in one of those is ever more remote.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. The US military is basically the developed world's military
There is no world body that has any power to do anything else about it, so the US taxpayer ends up paying for that global military, pretty much by default. The US Government won its way into it, by being the last center of power standing after the 20th century. Since we still live in a world with a few hundred regional governments, if it wasn't America spending all that money on the military, it would be some other country doing it.

It's very similar to the idea of universal health care. In the fractured system we have today, there are a bunch of insurance companies. We want a single payer, to lower the burden on each individual, spread the risk, etc. If we had a universal world body which could make each individual country pay to support a real global military, that would lower the burden on each citizen, especially the American citizen, who is paying for that global military right now. It's not fair, but somebody has to pay for a global military, because there will be one, one way or another.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
38. i think this is THE ISSUE we should rally round ..no more stupid war and gross spending
it is the one thing that i detest about this administration...get out of afghanistan and i'd probably give a pass for other things i'm unhappy about..but this is the line drawn in the sand for me..
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Drops_not_Dope Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
40. Hey yeah, err I mean FUCK YEAH
FUCK cut the Fucking Defense Fucking Spending!

That is Fucking a Fucking great Fucking idea!

Fuck, I wish the Fucking Congress would Fucking get their Fucking
shit Fucking together and make the Fucking changes we Fucking need!

FUCK.

Seems Fucking like we Fucking are so Fucking Screwed.

FUCK!
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. And completely eliminate the offense spending! nt
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
42. K&R
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
43. K&R
bravo, sir.

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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
44. Military spending is not on the table, only entitlements.
x(
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Yes, take from the poor, not from the rich. Same old song. nt
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
45. If the thieves can't steal money via the military budget, then how can they steal it from
the taxpayers?
:shrug:
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
47. I could be wrong, but...
I think this might be what could happen, only in a roundabout way.


Like how someone might try to break some ugly news to another person by doing a "bait and switch":


"Oh, guess what, honey...I emptied the bank account and I'm moving to Costa Rica with my mistress. Ha ha...only kidding! I only bought a motorcycle!"

Maybe reducing defense spending won't sound all that bad, even to people who want a huge fucking military, if it means reducing SS and having the parents or grandparents have to move in with them.


Just a thought...

:)


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Loudmxr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
49. I can accept the logic of the argument for empire when profit came back here.
But now that the American worker and industry is not protected by our empire I say end the foreign excursion. Let the multi national companies hire their own navies to protect their interests. Back in the fifties all that wealth used to come back here to power American industry and employ American workers. I can see the logic (but disagree with the values) in maintaining an empire for that.

Not anymore. It makes no sense in terms of economy, or values. It must be scaled back to protect only security. While "security" can be a catch all term it can be in no ways be defined as the "economic well being of _________ German town" as a defense budget item once was.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
50. r
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
51. Yep. Slash it and close the bs bases overseas also. Tired of it being called defense..it's offense.
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 11:10 AM by krabigirl
Cut the offense.
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
52. No politician has the balls to put that many people.......
out of work. If those jobs were lost we would truly see just how fucked up our "economy " really is. We are a warrior nation dependent on warrior related jobs.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. We could sell our weapons of war to those that would be forced to take our place when we stop...
protecting them at our cost. That would keep some of the jobs. We lost over 6 million jobs this last year ...the deployed personnel numbers are small by comparison.
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. My understanding is that the number of jobs, directly and indirectly,
related to DOD work is huge.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. We've clearly dug ourselves into a hole.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
79. dupe
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 04:25 PM by defendandprotect
to work for the rest of our lives -- !!!

The wars simply finance a war machine -- which creates new perpetual wars!

As the old question goes . . . "What are wars good for?"

Nothing!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
80. dupe --
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 04:25 PM by defendandprotect
to work for the rest of our lives -- !!!

The wars simply finance a war machine -- which creates new perpetual wars!

As the old question goes . . . "What are wars good for?"

Nothing!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
81. The amount of GREEN work required to save the planet and ourselves would keep us all
working for the rest of our lives -- !!!

The wars simply finance a war machine -- which creates new perpetual wars!

As the old question goes . . . "What are wars good for?"

Nothing!

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TCJ70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
66. I don't think we should put them out of work...
...but put them to work here at home. It would be far cheaper to use those human resources here than over there.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #66
82. Right . . . plenty of GREEN jobs for our military . . .
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
88. I would imagine good job training programs, and a tooling of those industries...
Edited on Mon Jul-12-10 08:08 PM by Robeson
...would be a fraction of the current costs towards defense.
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bergie321 Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
53. Unfortunately
Our only remaining export is war.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
56. Also, tax the rich. nt
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kennedyphan Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
57. Barney Frank says Obama is afraid to cut defense spending, lest he be perceived as weak
"Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said the president was "intimidated" by certain issues, particularly an effort by Frank and a few other lawmakers in both parties to rein in defense spending.

"It's the one area where I'm disappointed in the president," Frank said Tuesday evening during an appearance on MSNBC. "I think he gets intimidated by this notion of, 'Oh, you'll look weak on defense."

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/107403...
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. American well-being is far more endangered by a proposal for substantial reductions in Medicare, SS
<snip>In February 2009, Congressman Barney Frank, D-Mass., called for a reduction in the defense budget: "The math is compelling: if we do not make reductions approximating 25 percent of the military budget starting fairly soon, it will be impossible to continue to fund an adequate level of domestic activity even with a repeal of Bush's tax cuts for the very wealthy. I am working with a variety of thoughtful analysts to show how we can make very substantial cuts in the military budget without in any way diminishing the security we need... well-being is far more endangered by a proposal for substantial reductions in Medicare, Social Security or other important domestic areas than it would be by canceling weapons systems that have no justification from any threat we are likely to face."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_Uni...
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #57
89. He's a Democrat
Its the mantle he bears whether he likes it or not. Democrats do not spend more than they have to on defense and the war machine. If that spurs the MSM on to taunt him as a weak President, its up to Obama and his excellent oratory skills to explain how America is actually weaker when they spend all their money in foreign lands instead of bolstering the US by spending on healthcare and education in their own country. He should have more confidence in his skills which seemed so evident on the campaign trail.
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FBI_Un_Sub Donating Member (610 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
58. We can no longer be the world's policeman
and insure a Pax Americana. And bottom line - the only practical justification is to insure access to oil in places where they hate our guts. :shrug:
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FlyByNight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
61. Austerity applies to the rest of us and...
...not the financially/politically well-connected.

The empire must be maintained and because Obama didn't serve in the military, I suspect he's made the political calculation to "look tough" and increase the Afghan imperial occupation. LBJ made similar political calculations regarding the Indochina slaughterhouse (looking staunchly anti-Communist, fearing the GOP noise machine even then).

End. The. Occupations. (And slash the Pentagon budget to, at least, Cold War levels to start.)

:wtf:
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. I'm all for spending smarter and dropping the blunt force tact.
How much do you think Al-Qaeda or the Taliban spends? ...and we spend a trillion.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
64. K&R
Bomb the fuck out of the poppies and get out of Afghanistan. Get out of Iraq now and don't leave a single advisor. Cut our European, Japanese and Korean presence by 50%. The cold war is over. Besides, the thieves on Wall Street and in the Pentagon are the greatest threat to national security we face.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Amen
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Spheric Donating Member (512 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
69. K&R I'm right there with you. Pissed off. /nt
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
73. Jawohl.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
74. Ever since the Reagan administration, both the Republicans and their allies (the DLC)
have called for a balanced budget and an end to "wasteful government spending," but out of the same mouths have come cries for increased war spending.

*I no longer call it "defense" spending, because it's been "offense spending" for the past couple of decades. Whenever I'm in conversation, I never call it by the Orwellian term "defense spending," but "military spending," "war spending," or "offense spending." Who's with me on this?
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Totally agree.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Original name was "War Department" or "Department of War" . . . that's what we have !!
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hard2portorscuttle Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
76. It's not even
"defense" spending. It's offense wasting.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
77. Pelosi morning after '06 ... on video... "Democrats were elected to end the war" --!!
which btw are bankrupting the Treasury - -

which is also one serious way to defund social programs -- like public education,

Social Security, Medicare -- Unemployment Insurance, etal -- infrastructure --

and to destroy democracy --

While at the same time strengthening our nation's greatest enemy -- MIC!!

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clarence swinney Donating Member (673 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
83. WRECKONOMICS II---
REV 7-12-10

WRECKONOMICS II REV 7-12-10
COURTESY :WALL STREET OF AMERICA
LEADERSHIP VIA CONSERVATIVE POLICIES
THANKS TO RONALD REAGAN AND G W BUSH

From 1946 to 1980 the period was known as the GREAT MIDDLE CLASS YEARS
Each President worked to reduce the Debt from WWII.
In 1980 Debt was less than 1000 Billion and Government Spending was 600 Billion per year.

Reagan boastful Cut Taxes plus Cut the size of Government was a Trojan Horse, per his OMB Stockman, to cut Taxes for very rich.

Reagan was Governor for 8 years during which he increased Taxes on many items.
He increased the state revenues more than any predecessor.
By Far. Cutting Government? Ho Hum. Blarney Baloney once more.


Reagan policies increased Spending by 80% .
Debt by 186%.
9-3-01 Debt was $999.9 Billion and 9-30-89 at $1,859 Billion
Conservatives use Spin: It was Congress.
From 1930 to 1980 we spent $6066 Billion.
Reagan 8 Budgets totaled over $7000 Billion.
Congress? Ho Hum.
Blarney Baloney.
Congress returned Reagan 8 budgets for his signature with
fewer total dollars on them.
Haynes Johnson in sleepwalking said Reagan administration was most scurrilous in history
138 were investigated /charged/fined. More than total for all preceding Presidents in 20th century.
There were scandals in 27 Departments of the Federal Government.
Most involved money fraud.
The book Ronald Reagan-There he goes again documents over 300 incorrect statements by good old Ron.
Each President from 1945 reduced the Debt then came Spend-Borrow Reagan
to increase government by 80%.

THEN-Here comes GHW BUSH.
No braggart here. Nice Gentleman.
He increased Debt to $4411 Billion.
A 54% Increase.
Give him credit for increasing Tax on Rich due to out of control Deficits.
He had courage to put America first over ideology and party.

THEN-Pay your Way CLINTON ARRIVES
The Debt on 9-30-1993 was $4411 Billion.
The Debt on 9-3-01 was $5807 Billion.
An increase of $1396 or 31%
Clinton reduced the Deficit in each of first four years.
He ended with a surplus.

HERE comes old King of Spend-Borrow GW BUSH
Debt was $5807 Billion and on 9-30-09 it was $11,909 Billion.
105% increase.
Reagan-186%
Bush I-54%
Clinton-31%

Reagan-Bush I-Bush II did not pay down a penny of debt in 20 years

Those Three Famous Conservatives added $10,946 Billion to our Debt.

Three so called conservatives promoted cut government.
Up = Down to them.

INTEREST ON DEBT
9-30-81 to 9-30-09 we paid $8400 Billion in Interest.
87% Interest Paid on Debt incurred by the Famous 3.

The $10,946 in Debt plus $8400 Billion of Interest is $19,346 Billion.
Is it not possible that without Reagan + Bush Tax Cuts we would enjoy a Surplus?

Now! What do we do?

Increase Unearned Income Tax to 40%. Make Gamblers pay.
Increase Top Income Tax Rate to 40%
Increase Estate Tax big time big time biggie
Eliminate Loopholes on Corporate profits16% average payment-(top rate 35%)

In 2003 distribution of corporate profits by CBO report revealed
Bottom 80% of Income earners got 8%--Top 5% got 67%---Top 1% got 49%
2009 Tax Return of Exxon pays no tax on billions in profits. Wrong. Sad.
Renew Revenue Sharing to return cost to rich from middle class

Clarence Swinney
Political historian since 1991 on Reagan-Clinton-Bush II administrations.
Lifeaholics Of America -- old n ugly but honest
Author-Lifeaholic-Work for a Life not just a LivingWorkaholic to Lifeaholic
Author-forthcoming-All American PartyHow Democrats created a Great Middle Class and Wall Street Rich Conservatives are determined to destroy it
Many Stats from 12-6-09 polidose.com article by John Lucia The National Debt:Betrayal and Devastation
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. We REALLY are War Slaves.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. +1
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
86. Quote: "GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES WHO WANT TO SPEND THIS MONEY ON WAR AND KILLING! "
Eloquent.

eloquent (l-kwnt)
adj.
1. Characterized by persuasive, powerful discourse: an eloquent speaker; an eloquent sermon.
2. Vividly or movingly expressive: a look eloquent with compassion. See Synonyms at expressive.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
87. We can't do that.........
I am hiding under the bed shaking in my fucking boots........Home of the Brave???
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #87
97. Fear
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
90. That's the obvious solution
but really, the bigger problem is that grandma isn't eating enough cat food! Think about it!

(please tell me I don't need the sarcasm tag)
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
92. additionally, military spending creates fewer jobs per dollar than civilian spending
as shown by this study -----> ;(warning pdf file) http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/published_study...

snippet from the conclusion

We have shown the overall employment effectsincluding direct, indirect, and induced job creationof spending on the military in contrast with four al-ternative domestic spending categories: clean en-ergy, health care, education, as well as increasing household consumption through tax cuts. Specifi-cally, we have shown that spending on all of these alternatives to military spending create substantially more jobs per $1 billion in expenditures relative to military spending.
It is true that jobs generated by military spending provide higher average levels of compensation. This is primarily the result of substantially more generous benefits provided for employees associated with the military industries than those working in other sec-tors of the U.S. economy. These large disparities in compensation could possibly diminish if, through its current debates as of this writing, the U.S. Congress succeeds in enacting health care reforms that pro-vide broadly-shared benefits for all sectors of the economy.
But even despite these large differences in benefits for employees in the military sector, it is still the case, as we show, that spending on clean energy, health care, and education all create a much larger number of jobs that pay wages greater than $32,000 per year. Spending in these sectors all generate a much larger number of mid-range jobs, paying be-tween $32,000 - $64,000, as well as high-paying jobs that pay over $64,000.
Overall then, as we concluded in the original version of this study, there is a great deal at stake as policy-makers and voters establish public policy spending priorities. By addressing social needs in the areas of clean energy, health care and education, we would also create many more job opportunities overall as well as a substantially larger number of good jobs.

Loonix, thanks for posting... apparently there are more than a few of us who are quite fucking angry at the fucking assholes and their fucking wars and fucking military fucking spending on fucking military fucking bases all fucking over the fucking place**^&%$#$ like we need more fucking bases in Colombia, right?

Cheerio!
Agony
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. +++
:hi:
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Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. hey! I've had lifelong training in the vernacular and besides I recently took the refresher
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unkachuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-12-10 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
96. K&R....n/t
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feslen Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-13-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
99. Make War, not Peace
is the goal of these greedy pigs. they will never cut back on military until all the resources are sucked out of the planet and then some.
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