Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

For those who insist that poor people are just too stupid and too lazy to eat well.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:02 PM
Original message
For those who insist that poor people are just too stupid and too lazy to eat well.
This article is about food stamps and other programs to aid poor people.

"Low-income shoppers on a constrained budget, the very group these programs target, often make the rational decision in the supermarket to buy the most energy-dense foods limited dollars can afford. And, in the American supermarket, it just so happens that you get more calories per dollar from soft drinks than fruit juice, from refined grains than whole grains, from frozen french fries than fresh broccoli.

In other words, the foods, beverages, snacks or diets said to promote obesity were, in every case, inexpensive, Adam Drewnowski, director of the Center for Obesity Research at the University of Washington, wrote in a 2007 article in Epidemiologic Reviews. What epidemiologic research seems to have shown, fairly consistently, is that obesity is most closely associated with habitual consumption of low-cost foods.


THE IDEA LOBBY
Miller-McCune's Washington correspondent Emily Badger follows the ideas informing, explaining and influencing government, from the local think tank circuit to academic research that shapes D.C. policy from afar.
The food stamp and school lunch programs arent exactly instructing people to eat unhealthy foods. But the reality is that unhealthy food is what limited funds can buy in America.

To my mind, saying to a low-income person, Why dont you choose to eat a healthy, nutritious diet? is not much different from saying Why dont you choose to live on Park Avenue? Drewnowski wrote in an e-mail. Choice has little to do with it."



http://www.miller-mccune.com/health/federal-food-aid-di...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. No shit!
During my last years long stint at bad health and the poverty it brought, I did do my best to design a nutritious diet, but it was too heavy in filler, even with whole grains, to keep me feeling particularly healthy. A steady diet of whole grains, beans, and root veggies got very old, very quickly, even with my ability to come up with new and different combinations at least weekly.

What I really missed were vitamin laden roughage like salads, fruits, and the kinds of veg that grow above ground, although my budget did stretch to cabbage for slaws. Sandwiches that required lettuce had sunflower or buckwheat sprouts I made at home. The only fruit I saw was an occasional splurge on a jar of applesauce, stretched by spreading it on whole grain bread.

All we have to do to see where a lot of the exogenous obesity in this country comes from is look at where the subsidies go: fillers like corn and wheat and fat laden beef and other meat, plus dairy, although dairy prices have gone through the roof, too. Just add osteoporosis to that obesity, folks. Fruits and vegetables aren't subsidized. Poor folks can't afford them. They want Vitamin C, they drink sugary powdered fake fruit drinks.

The Park Avenue analogy is the best I've seen.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. You don't live on Park Avenue, either?
What you have recounted should be understood by anyone who even *considers* calling themselves "progressive".

But if you keep checking in to this thread, you will see many who will gladly attack us for saying the truth.

:hi:

"All we have to do to see where a lot of the exogenous obesity in this country comes from is look at where the subsidies go: fillers like corn and wheat and fat laden beef and other meat, plus dairy, although dairy prices have gone through the roof, too. Just add osteoporosis to that obesity, folks. Fruits and vegetables aren't subsidized."

And there you have it. But, rather than look at the systemic causes, people would rather look down their regal noses and judge and criticise.

We should be paid for giving people such excuses for feeling superior.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. After my heart attack last August I decided to try a heart healthy diet and with in the first month
I discovered that the heart healthy foods cost 3 to 4 times what it cost for the foods that caused my heart problems and by the second week after buying the heart healthy foods the SO had to go to the local food bank because we were out of food. So needless to say I'm back on the same diet that caused the artery blockage, except 1 good thing happened, I no longer use salt or eat foods with a high salt content. When doc asked if I was still eating heart healthy I said "hell no I'm going to die either fat and full or from starvation, I choose to die fat and full".

Being on a fixed income means you have to either go without or hit the food banks and hope you can use 1/2 of the crap you get from them, wtf is with people that think giving a food bank 300 cases of Slim Fast is a good ideal anyhow? No kidding, I once got 24 cans of Slim Fast Diet drink with the beans and rice that the food bank was giving out because some asshole donated 300 cases. This is the reality of poor in America.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Thank you so much for sharing this. Sadly, those who want to judge are not going to pay attention
to what you are saying.

I was making the same points about food banks. It is soooo easy to sit back and judge, and feel so self-righteous.

I am so sorry that you are in this position. (As are many.) There is no excuse for this in the richest country in the world!

Best to you! :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Slim Fast kept my mother alive for three years
She refused solid food but would down 3-5 cans a day of that stuff. It will keep you alive. It's not the best thing in the world, but it beats the alternative of going hungry.

I usually donate money because I know they can get bulk food deals I can't. When I donate, I donate cases of canned fruit from Costco because fruit is the one thing I could never afford when I was broke.

Some strategies for that heart healthy stuff is getting frozen veggies instead of fresh. They're flash frozen at their peak in the field and retain most of their nutrients. The texture isn't as good as fresh, but they're generally cheaper, believe it or not.

You're in the early stages of learning how to cope with this and likely you'll figure out a compromise between eating junk and eating well that your budget can stand.

Kicking salt was a great first step. I know, because I'm there too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
91. I'm on SSDI (read 'Fixed Income')...
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 10:19 AM by badgerpup
...when I managed to land a part-time job despite being disabled, one of the things I most enjoyed being able to buy was fresh fruit. Oranges, apples, bananas, the occasional strawberry... :9 my tastes are fairly plebian.
I was making do on canned pineapple in its own juice (like that chilled for breakfast) and prunes.
They're really good stewed too...


:hi: Now that you're done laughing, here's how ya do it...

Take as many prunes as you want (a handful or so is a good amount to work with for this), and put them in enough water to cover.
Bring water to a boil, then remove from heat. Add 1/2 tsp cinnamon, and 1/2 tsp of allspice or ginger if you've got it. Whole cloves (2-3) are better than ground cloves for this purpose, but if all you have is ground then use NO MORE than a quarter teaspoon of clove* depending upon how many prunes you're stewing. 2-3 freshly crushed black peppercorns-(this comes to a bit over a 1/4 tsp of FRESHLY GROUND** black pepper
Stir well, Put the lid on the pot and let sit in the lidded pot overnight. The fruit will absorb the water and spices and be tasty as well as healthy.


You CAN skip the spices, but they turn stewed prunes from 'insipid' and a joke to delicious and something you can enjoy eating... :9
as well as good for ya.


* Clove is a 'dragon' among the spices and if you put in too much it will overwhelm everything else and render the dish unpalatable.
:yoiks:

** You won't taste the peppercorns...that few and freshly crushed, what they will do is pull all the other flavors together and make them 'work'.
You need to use FRESHLY-GROUND though...otherwise the magic won't happen and all that will happen is you will taste pepper in your prunes.
:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. Diabetic and heart attack survivor here....
I had a heart attack in February 2008, cheeseburger induced for sure. I had 4 stints put in, a pacemaker and discovered I was diabetic as well. The diabetes was a blessing in disguise, as I was forced to modify my diet. After a few months of a bland diet, I did a lot of reasearch about portions and spices, different cuts of meat, etc etc... Salt is a no no now, but I didn't cut it completly out, just used considerably less. I started cooking a lot of frozen veggies...cheap and less salt....bought a foreman grill...choose leaner cuts of steak, pork and chicken...used different spices....ground turkey vrs ground beef and of course cut sugar almost completly out of my diet( save for strawberry preserves on p/j sandwiches ) I eat a lot of nuts, wheat or rye bread....the biggest thing is to plan your meals out before you shop and look for bargins....I'm not on a fixed income but I'm no millionaire either. It is possible to buy good healthy food on a budget, I do it every month. Take a dietary course...they are out there at low or no cost and the benefits of it are limitless. The average human require less than 3000 calories a day depending on your activity level is. Learn about healthy carbs....buy cookbooks...processed Swanson dinners are a death sentance, make your own food...learn to cook your meals.....and a side benefit is when your a bachelor like me, cooking your date a delicious meal looks nice on your resume!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #93
150. Imagine being a homeless diabetic. Do you have any idea what shelter food is like?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #93
154. I don't buy 'food' as such...
I buy 'ingredients'.
At least, this is what I've been told... :shrug:

Agree with you about processed food...not only is it bad for you, it tastes awful and isn't cost-effective. I've gotten to where I can taste preservatives in a lot of things and won't touch them any more. :thumbsdown:

Only problem with this is that it's difficult to make a little bit of soup...(e.g., lentil, French Onion, chicken, corn chowder, tomato, etc.) and you can't always freeze what's left once you're tired of it after three days.
:silly:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #93
155. You're talking about a lot of "buying" that people who are subsisting
on the kind of income & food stamps that don't allow for buying all of that stuff, much less making the choices you do at the market. You're buying for one, as am I. I can buy frozen vegetables that, when I think about them for a family on food stamps, are too expensive. I can eat those frozen vegetables over the course of about 5 nights, making them economical for me. I can do the same with all kinds of foods knowing that, unless I have people with me for dinner, I can stretch them out for one. And I have the resources to easily do that -- I have a refrigerator to keep them in, a microwave to reheat them, a car to go to the market I choose, and more......those are all things that people on low incomes may not have.

And, when you are one and you're low income and relying on assistance for your subsistence, you get the kind of assistance (if you get any at all) that "they" deem sufficient for one person. It's certainly not what I would consider sufficient and it doesn't allow for the kind of allowances I can make for myself. Were I in that place, just to stay alive I'd make the kind of decisions outlined in the article.

Hell, you're assuming that the people who are being fed have a home/apartment, and that isn't always the case. While you're cooking on your Foreman grill, there are people trying to feed themselves and too often their families having nowhere to cook at all but instead relying on whatever meals can be eked out by whatever local programs are available.

You may not be a millionaire, but you have a higher budget than do the people talked about in this article if you're out buying cookbooks & Foreman grills. I buy healthy food on a budget, too, but it's nowhere near the budget talked about here by some of the people who have to live off of far less and who often have to feed hungry children off that budget.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #91
158. Prunes, stewed or otherwise, were not an option for me
because the last thing I need in my life is laxative. The rare times I get constipated (and I'm no narcotics!) I just eat a nice ice cream bar, works great and tastes better than milk of mag.

For me, it had to be applesauce on homemade bread.

However, your recipe sounds wonderful. I have used pepper in all sorts of sweet stuff and raisins in savory stuff and they both work a hell of a lot better than you'd think they would.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #45
114. Our community started a pea patch this year...
we've been able to donate tons of veggies especially spinach, salad and other greens to our
local food bank and the area mission. Hopefully a lot of other communities will be soon
be doing the same thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #114
139. Our community started a garden this year too.
The Interfaith Youth Group and my Dem group are donating the crops we raise to the local food bank. And there will still be plenty for us as well. :-) I can't wait for tomatoes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
keepCAblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
121. Yeah, food banks in general--Second Harvest, especially--totally suck
The food they provide is mostly all processed crap. No fresh fruits, veggies or meat. Yeah, I understand that perishables such as these are rarely donated and difficult to store, but honestly, much of the crap that is donated by corporate entities is nutritionally bereft and does the body more harm than good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #121
146. Absolutely, but the Blame The Poor crowd don't want to hear that.
And all of those who are so proud of volunteering at shelters..... the food there..... The Blame The Poor Crowd would be horrified.

Except that they mostly don't really care what poor folk eat.... its all about blame and feeling superior.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
keepCAblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #146
171. Yeah, they pat themselves on the back for donating things like...
Top Ramen, boxed Mac 'n Cheese, powdered milk, instant mashed potatoes and Cocoa Puffs.

Back in 2002 I found myself tapped out after a major move and catastrophic medical bills left me with no money to buy groceries -- and my next paycheck was more than a week away. I went to the local food bank and got one small bag of "food" which was to last me a week and it was mostly the aforementioned. Disgusting crap which I could barely stomach. After a couple days of eating nothing but this crap, I, in turn, felt like crap. Became hypoglycemic, lethargic, nauseous. I chose to go hungry for three days instead of eating this stuff, until my next paycheck when I could load up on fresh veggies and whole grains. Fortunately, it was just me I had to worry about. I can't even imagine feeding growing children such garbage for every meal. Is it any wonder there is an epidemic of obesity, Type II diabetes and Attention Deficit Disorder among this country's youth?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #171
172. You make some excellent points. It is so sad that so many here cannot hear them.
Now, can you imagine being in a "shelter"? Imagine what they eat there!

Can you imagine being hypoglycemic (as I am) or diabetic and being stuck in a shelter?

Yet, again, so many pat themselves on the back for supporting these things, and then blaming poor people for eating poorly and saying they are "ignorant", rather than fighting for much better nutrition for all in the richest country in the world.

I am sorry you went through that, but I very much appreciate your sharing it here! :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
140. I love your nickname. While your story is sad, it still made me smile.
That you related a story that many poor people around the country have been enduring for decades, while elitist yuppies attempt to dismiss it in this very thread. I love this sort of irony.

Hope you live longer than you're giving yourself, and I hope it's painless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
153. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.
 
Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent points!
Recommended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. thank you!
It hurts to keep getting attacked on a forum that is supposed to be about progressive thought. And understanding.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Yes. But, that shouldn't stop us from trying to help those
who are in need. Never.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RandomThoughts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. I disagree, I think choice is part of it.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:54 PM by RandomThoughts
You can make your situations in life better or worse. You can choose what is important, and what you do to get those things. And what you wont do.

My observations in life is much of it works like training where things try to get you to act a way by giving what they think is important. Many times it is to create a slow slide into what you don't want to do. So it is true that what you 'have' is not always controllable, but what you are willing to do to get something is controllable.

I still don't have beer or cigarettes, But that does not mean I will go steal them, well maybe I will, but it would be a choice. But the point is you only don't have a choice if you think you have to have something.

I know I will have many things, but not going to give up any of myself to get them. Much of things in life is trying to get you to agree to be subservant to a person in exchange for something, I don't agree with that. Shrug, I will power through until I get what I need, but not by having to give any of myself to get it.

I should rephrase that, not subserviant to a person that thinks they are special, but instead serving the better ideas of serving all people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Choice is part of it, but every choice comes with a cost. So, when a person is making a food
selection, they need to weigh the money cost of the food, the travel cost to get it (money, effort, time, risk), the energy required for preparation, storage, etc. That math will come out very differently depending on whether the person is poor or rich, urban or suburban, educated or not. Also, the payoff from the healthy diet is largely in the long term - which may count a lot less for a person struggling from one paycheck (or not) to the next.

I don't doubt that a person in any circumstances can make what would be termed "healthy" dietary choices, but I also don't doubt that we have a ways to go in lowering the barriers a lot of people face in making those choices...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. AND, many here are making the CHOICE to blame poor people rather than to work to
change the underlying causes.

This libertarian mindset is driving this country to becoming a heartless nation going down the toilet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moostache Donating Member (905 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
119. Sadly, you are correct...
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 01:01 PM by Moostache
I have stated elsewhere that our society has reached a tipping point where "property rights" have eclipsed "human rights" and just about everything else...but your experience in this thread is illuminating as well.

The modern-day TEA party people are merely the overt expression of this latent disease in America and I am 100% convinced that it is the final "gift" from the era of Reaganomics. The gift that keeps on giving...the destruction of the middle class is but one casualty of the era, the death of our collective moral compass (ironically replaced by a harder edge and more destructive increase in religiosity) and its replacement with a darker, more Ayn Randian sense of the world seems to be with us as well - especially as my generation (the children of the late 1970s and early 1980s begin to take over the reigns of power).

The brainwashing and indoctrination of the people has been complete when so many of us can look around at our myriad of problems and see them clearly; yet so few can stand in that same light and rationally say:

"You know, there are CAUSES for the situation we are in, and if we continue to cling to archaic beliefs and historically errant philosophies, we will NEVER recover or advance. We cannot move forward while treading in the waters of the past."

These ideas that the poor "choose" to be: 1) lazy, 2) unhealthy, 3) unemployed, 4) a burden to society are ALL red herrings and have ALL been internalized by too many people that should know better. The advancement of SOCIETY does not revolve around the property rights of the individual, in most cases they are mutually exclusive.

Americans profess to be among the most religious people on Earth and sadly our true "god" is nothing more than a Madison Avenue fantasy and the delusional sense that we will all one day be "rich", so its our duty NOW to protect the rich so that those benefits will be there for us later...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #119
148. Yes, this is the legacy of Raygun, and swallowed whole by so many "progressives".
Ironic, eh?

But even more.... tragic. :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yuugal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
6. Is this a serious post?
I agree that the junk food is the cheapest.

But you're really going to make the argument that low-income shoppers (who are very often lower-educated because they are forced to drop out of school to work/take care of a family member) are running the math to determine which foods are "energy-dense foods?"

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. It isn't that difficult to figure out when you are eating it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Real english: energy dense = fills me up for the least amount of money. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Embarrassing you had to translate
But glad you did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Exactly. Thank you. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. My thought exactly. Furthermore they compare expensive veggies like broccoli instead of extremely
low cost veggies like carrots and cabbage and potatoes (hey, they are good food, it's the butter and sourcream that ruin them). I know that I've been living on less than $25 a week, no food stamps, just poor, and what I eat is healthy, though I do cook it myself. Every week I get eggs(protein), milk (for my coffee), instant coffee, cabbage, carrots, onions, and potatoes. Once a month I buy a box of tea bags for iced tea and some butter and some yogurt (in lieu of sour cream).

If these folks are doing calorie density calculations, one would think that with their levels of obesity they'd intentionally be looking for less calorie density. The article makes no sense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Being well-versed in nutrition, you *do* know that potatoes have a high glycemic index
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:49 PM by bobbolink
and are therefore no-nos for diabetics and hypoglycemics, right? (Which also means they aren't good in quantity for *anyone*)

The same goes for bananas and other low-cost fruits and vegetables.

The article "makes sense" to those who understand the issue, and still have compassion for others, but lack a need to judge.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Potatoes are a starch. A gram of starch is a gram of starch,, is a gram of starch.
One of the foods that can really pack the weight on me. Also, it does not sound as if you are feeding children. For my BMI and activity level, I could survive on 1600-1800 calories/day. 8-18 year old child? Maybe, but I wouldn't advise it.


http://www.bcm.edu/cnrc/consumer/archives/percentDV.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. And an energy dense food
Kind of making the point of the OP.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
63. Exactly! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #25
78. Starch as part of a whole meal is not bad for anyone, and yes, I've had children
and when they were younger and living here, they ate the same, learned how to cook for themselves and do quite a bit better financially than their peers because of it. It is a usual discussion as to how disgusted they get with what their friends and roommates spend on junk food, their weight issues, and their illnesses, which my kids have determined have come from their poor diets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
164. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
163. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. They don't need to
Anyone who eats regularly gets a pretty good idea what sates their hunger and what doesn't. Just like you don't carefully contemplate the incredible intricacies of a controlled, continuous forward fall, you just take a walk. Walking is quite complicated, but you don't need to think about it, you learned how through trial and error before you were 2 years old. Food is quite similar in that you don't really NEED to do a careful analysis of which foods are best on an energy to expense ratio, you learned a long time ago that some foods stick with you and some just don't.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. It's a pretty natural behavior - in ecology and anthropology it's called optimal foraging
You don't really need a calculator to know (from experience) which food choices will fill you up and satisfy hunger for the longest time with the least effort. The difference from animal foraging is that the 'cost' for people is measured in money as well as time, effort, and so on...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
138. Best reply to the nonsense I read. Nice post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. It doesn't take much math. It takes realizing what leaves you feeling hungry.
Then there's the question of why those foods are so cheap, and how we're basically all paying to make poor people unhealthy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
137. Exactly, their meals are not balanced, they eat whatever fills them up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
104. With all due respect,...... ahem...
since you are showing none yourself....

your post sounds elitist, classist and way, way outdated.

Low income shoppers often have college degrees these days.

Some of the poorest of the poor Appalachian people I know - people with whom you would no doubt never associate - can "do the math" better than any PhD I know. They HAVE to learn this skill to survive on very few resources.

So take your uplifted nose toward the "poor masses" and put it where the sun don't shine.

And when you've finished that chore, go out and actually talk to some Authentic Impoverished Locals (we've got chapters in every community) and educate yourself on reality.





With all due respect....




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Wow. Find some happiness friend. Watch a sunset. Hug a puppy. Something.
Warm hugs and kisses,
newtothegame
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Well now there's a way to derail your own argument


you asked if the Op was for real, then proceeded to spew some tripe about how stupid and clueless poor people are, and you think I'm the one not happy?

I'm happy knowing that I don't equate low income with low intellect. And I'm also happy that I can carry on a discussion for more than one post...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #106
151. ! Thank you. You pegged it right on.
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #151
166. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
136. Uh, fucking yes, they do. It's an option between a 2oz piece of food or a 1lb piece of food.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. Sadly so true. Big k/r. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm glad I never made the argument that the poor are too stupid or lazy to eat well.
And, in fact, it pisses me off to see others who do. The argument that I make is that our agricultural subsidy system is so out of whack that we have created a society where the least health-ful "food" is the cheapest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. +1 nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's still possible to eat well on food stamps, but
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:29 PM by MineralMan
it's hard work, and requires resources a lot of people receiving that aid don't have.

Years ago, I worked on an educational program aimed at food stamp recipients. It was designed to create a menu that would feed a family of four within the food stamp allowance. We created shopping lists, menus, and recipes. It was a great plan, with plenty of variety to keep it from being boring. The problem turned out to be that many of the people we were trying to serve couldn't execute the recipes, either because they didn't have the tools or the skills. Even though the recipes were simple one, that was one problem we ran into as we worked on distributing the program.

Everyone working on the project actually lived on this diet during its development. Many changes were made during that process, to simplify, improve taste, etc.

Another problem was the need to purchase some basic, non-perishable foods in quantity to stretch the budget. It was a psychological problem, really, but there was no way around it.

Some people, who were without funds, but who were clever, able people, were able to implement the program, to their benefit. Most people, though, simply could not use it, and never got away from the typical food stamp diet.

I was saddened by this, since the program actually provided a relatively healthful diet on that strict budget.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rppper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
97. Great point
Planning out meals is a key element, and learning to cook is the other. Maybe this is an area that more light should be put upon. I am shocked at how many people in my own circle of friends can't boil water, much less cook a non pre packaged meal. Education always provides the answers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AnArmyVeteran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
175. Were bulk foods part of the program?
I've always wondered why food stamps are good for junk food and tv dinners when whole chickens were just a couple of bucks and could serve a family of four. A long time ago when I was temporarily unemployed I bought bulk foods. I cut my budget way back, to the bare minimum. I made nutritious soups, stews and fish. There are a lot of inexpensive foods at grocery stores but they require at least some effort to cook. I know growing up we never bought junk food. We only bought staples and nutritious foods. Every meal was homemade, except for cereal in the mornings. And grocery stores even have large packages of cereals at fair rates.

I can believe some of the problems you encountered were psychological. A lot of people grow up eating junk food and that's all they know. It seems to get to the root of the problem is to get people to buy frugally and maximize their purchases through the buying of things like chickens and bulk quantities of sugar, flour, rice, etc. But before that they need to learn how to at least cook for themselves and their families.

Years ago, every family used to be able to save and maximize their purchases, but it seems as if today people are losing all of the skills that were once common, and necessary to live. I grew up poor, but we ate very well and never missed a meal and my parents never used any external funds.

There is a lot of waste in our society. Hopefully people will change and learn to be more self sufficient. I'm not attacking the poor. But people of limited means should instinctively know how to survive with what they have. Nor am I against the food stamp program because a lot of families are enduring a lot of financial hardship.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
14. Great post. But, we'll have some along soon to tell us how it's our own fault for being poor. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
15. Especially if you've got a few kids
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:26 PM by sandnsea
Because the food stamps do not rise proportionately with the appetite of teen-age boys, for instance. There is no equivalent to 10 cent ramen, as any college student knows. But for some reason, they understood cheap in college but forgot it when they got their $60,000+ job.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Sorry, poor Americans are stupid when it comes to food
Of course so are middle class and rich Americans. Americans are stupid when it comes to eating healthily.

I live on a very limited income and I do eat healthily. It takes a little work and planning and that I like to cook certainly helps. And btw, lots of poor folks as well as those who aren't poor buy crap that is processed and not cheap. Oatmeal is much more nutritional than sweetened cold cereals. Carrots are cheap, so are bananas. Making a pitcher of iced tea is much cheaper than buying soda, etc, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. A huge bag of $2 toasty oats
Will serve as both breakfast and snack. Oatmeal won't. Carrots and bananas are not as cheap as soda crackers. You don't give caffeinated tea to kids. And on and on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Question, could one toast oats?
If you bought regular oatmeal can you toast that to make "toasty oats"?

I don't buy toasty oats so I'm not sure what that would include, but I do know that I buy walnuts and toast them myself.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Never bought food at a dollar store? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. No, I've never bought food at the dollar store.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 04:28 PM by tammywammy
So, I guess that's a no to my question then.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Well then walk down the cereal aisle
And look for the bag of Toasty O's. They're even cheaper at the dollar store or grocery outlet or similar warehouse food place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I didn't realize Toasty O's was a cereal
When you said a bag of toasty oats, I thought you were referring to actual toasted oats or granola type product, hence my question.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. and you can make cheap and tasty granola out of oatmeal
you can make muffins from oatmeal with just a few inexpensive ingredients- and cookies. Carrots and bananas are cheaper than soda cracker- much, much cheaper. teabags are widely available decaffeinated. And on and on.

Sorry, you don't know what you're talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. *sigh* eggs, oil, flour, salt, soda, b powder
You've clearly never raised kids on nothing. And I can't even imagine where you get the idea 3-4 days of carrots is cheaper than a 99 cent box of crackers.

Been there, done that. You're the one who knows nothing about kids and hunger and NOTHING in the house to feed them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. sigh. I'm thrilled to be able to educate you
You can buy 25 lbs of oatmeal for around 10 buck through your local co-op. Here's an inexpensive granola recipe- and it's clear that you've never made it if you think eggs are needed.

5 cups of oatmeal
1/2 cup of vegetable or canola oil
1/3 cup honey (I buy honey at Ocean State Job Lot for 2 bucks a pound)
pinch of salt
1 tsp cinnamon (optional) A big container of cinnamon is a buck at the place mentioned above)
1/2 cup brown sugar
1/2 cup raisins (optional)
1/2 cup nuts (optional)

mix wet ingredients, add sugar, cinnamon and salt, add oats and spread on greased baking sheet. Put in 350 oven for about 10 minutes, mix in nuts and raisins if using, put back in oven for another 5 to seven minutes.

Pennies per serving. No eggs, no baking powder.

A 99 cent box of crackers? Not even at the dollar store. Crackers are very expensive.

And yeah, a big bag of carrots for 2 bucks and a jar of peanut butter for 3 along with say 3 bags of 6 count english muffins for 99 cents a bag, will do for 3 hungry kids for snacks (add the granola and a gallon of 2 percent milk and the bananas and you can do healthy breakfasts and lunches for 3 kids for 5 or 6 days for a grand total about 17 bucks.

I damn well do know what I'm talking about here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Not at my co-op
And yes crackers are 99 cents at the local dollar store and local grocery warehouse. If one were to buy full amounts that are required to accompany your 25 lbs of oatmeal, it would likely use up half a months worth of food stamps.

Sometimes you get it, but clearly on this one you do not.

And that peanut butter? Caloric. Along with the english muffins which, again, is the entire point of the OP.

Healthy that doesn't pile on the calories means fresh fruits and vegetables and lots of them.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #54
116. Because poor neighborhoods are just chock a block with co-ops. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
a la izquierda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
88. Oatmeal can't serve as a snack?
Wow, news to my husband and I.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
113. "You don't give caffeinated tea to kids."
But millions of people give caffeinated soda to them...

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
124. The caffeine in iced tea won't hurt kids.
And if it matters, decaff generic teabags are cheap too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
95. Sorry, but you live in a comfortable little bubble if you think stupidity is the root problem.
You apparently have full cooking facilities. You probably have a way to get to the stores or farm stands with the best food value for your dollar. Since you like to cook, you probably also know how and that means that somewhere a long the way you had the time to learn that skill.

The lack of one or more of the above is a significant barrier to eating better on a low budget.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
28. Not to mention, carrying home groceries on foot and/or by bus limits how much you can carry
Filling, cheap foods tend to be lighter and easier to carry. The cheap trash foods are filling, are highly flavored enough to be palatable, and are often easier to prepare for tired people who make long commutes by bus to one or more jobs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. That is an excellent point. I just moved to a second floor apartment--and
I definitely take that into consideration even though I park very close.

Walking a few blocks or boarding a bus is gonna influence one's eating habits; it has mine and I don't have near that burden.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
57. I did the bus/foot thing for years
I'm paying the price for it now with an extremely painful form of arthritis in my neck, clavicle and humeral heads from years of carrying very heavy loads - a price others in a similar position will undoubtedly pay, too (I'm not a special snowflake). Even when you know what the healthier choice is, there are days when exhaustion makes a cup of ramen look really good.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. People all over Europe shop for food on nearly a daily basis, transporting
it home via bus, train, bicycle, and/or on foot. It's part of the daily experience.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. This isn't Europe. Greater distance between home and shopping and poor mass transit in US
Nice try, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Some people in the US do live in cities with transportation available.
I've seen pictures on the teevee that New York, for example, has subways. I bet other places have similar things, maybe even bus service.

Not everyone is out in the boonies.

Nice try, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #66
77. Everyone lives in New York?
Wow. I thought I lived in Kansas City for 33 years, which has limited bus service which doesn't cover the entire metro area. I bet KC isn't the only large city like that, either. But nice try. :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #77
82. Obviously not, since you don't. - but check this out.
"I bet other places have similar things, maybe even bus service.

Not everyone is out in the boonies."

"Other places" includes Kansas City.

Did you know that some places with bus service have racks for bicycles on those busses? Probably not in your Kansas City though.

Did you also know that those places with racks on the busses did not always have those racks, but people who ride bicycles got the local TA to install them?

Things are doable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #77
143. Well, obviously, if you were smart, you would move to NYC!
I mean, really.....

:rofl:

The sales of linament is going to go up to cover the back pain from all the contortions some of these posters are going through to prove that poor people are to blame.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #66
118. Riding the bus
still limits what you can buy and carry. Having a car really helps plus a lot of cities bus routes may not cover where you live causing you to talk half mile or more to find a bus stop. Plus places where I live like in Mesa have very limited bus service on Saturdays and no bus routes whatsoever on Sundays. Plus there isn't a bus stop in front of everyones home either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #65
165. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KitSileya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
81. And even this European, who doesn't have a car
needed help from her parents (who lives 12 hours by car away) to go shopping after her surgery last week. I had my gallbladder out non-electively, and as a result, need to be on a fat-free/fat-reduced diet. Luckily, my parents came down after my surgery with their car, and with their help I managed to buy what I needed (I couldn't do it before the surgery, because there was some uncertainty whether the laparoscopic surgery would work - if it hadn't, I would have spent at least a week in the hospital, with all my pre-bought veggies going bad at home.) And it was expensive. Granted, Norway has the most expensive food in Europe, but at the same time, we spend little of our income on food (i.e., our incomes are adjusted to the price levels.)

I am lucky that
a. I have a good income
b. my surgery cost me less than $250 all told, (about three days' wages after taxes) and that only because I chose to have it at another hospital to cut waiting times, and I'm not applying for reimbursement for everything I could (I can afford it, many cannot, why should I?)
c. my parents chose to drive down instead of fly down, so they could help me.
d. I'm not losing any income from my 2 week sick leave (in fact, as it cuts into my vacation, I'll get 6 days vacation back that I can take at another time.)

Many point to Europe to show how things can be done, but having lived in both countries, I do know that should I move back, I would have to get a car unless I chose to specifically live in Manhattan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
84. Europeans have a better social structure. And are you speaking of men who need to work, also?
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 07:46 AM by WinkyDink
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #58
101. Agreed...
I lived in Switzerland for several months visiting a friend about 25 years ago. We would step outside our apartment and walk a few doorways to the meat store, then a few doorways to the bread store, then on to other stores. These were small stores that carried essentially one type of item, but there were slightly larger stores that carried a selection of essential items, but no multi-shelved displays with hundreds of 2-liter bottles of Coke. Occasionally we went to a larger market for other items, but always on foot.

And we ate well and we said "hello" to a lot of folks on the street. :hi:

No big suburban station wagons to drive several miles to a huge supermarket to buy food trucked from thousands of miles away...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #101
144. For a number of years now, I have said that these countries should take in poor folk from the US.
After all, they do much better with poverty than the US, and the US has taken in plenty of their people.

Now that we are in such bad shape, I think these countries should return the favor.

Its only right....lives are at stake.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
159. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
169. exactly...especially if you have 3 or more in your family...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. According to the people here, you just load the kids and food on your bike.
That's easy, isn't it?

:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
29. Poor people are really no different than the average American when it comes to food choices.
Americans don't really like to cook and prepare meals and by that I don't mean opening a box or package of processed food with lots of additives and packed with high fructose corn syrup. I mean cooking from scratch and using whole ingredients where you control what and how much goes into the meal.

But that really does take time and energy and planning and your average American, poor or not, likes their meals fast and easy and therefore usually unhealthy.

I am on food stamps and coincidentally I just returned from the supermarket and this is what I bought:

32 oz. soy milk (1.29)
10 oz. almonds (2.59)
Heinz sloppy joe sauce--all natural, no HFCS (1.29)
16 oz firm Tofu--Cajun flavored to use with the sloppy joe sauce (1.99)
Healthy Balance peanut butter, crunchy (2.79)
2 cans tuna in water (.98)
2 11 oz. bags tortilla chips (1.58)
16 oz. whole wheat rotini (1.99)
2 8 oz. packages of fresh sliced bella mushrooms (3.18)
10 lbs russet potatoes (2.29)
4 lbs Valencia oranges (3.49)
64 oz. orange juice (1.89(
46 oz. natural lemonade (2.09)
32 oz. vanilla yogurt (1.59)
16 oz. sour cream (1.29)
dozen cage free eggs (2.45)
16 oz. frozen peas (.89)
12 oz. frozen onion/green pepper seasoning blend (.99)
16 oz. frozen strawberries (1.59)
16 oz. mango slices (1.49)
12 oz. chocolate chips (1.69)
64 oz. apple juice--NSA (1.69)
24 oz. loaf whole wheat bread, no HFCS

Total: $44.09 I think I did well in making healthy and nutritious choices as well as food I like to prepare and eat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. And how many people are you feeding
And how long do you think that list would feed a family of 3 who are getting $300 a month in food stamps.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BuelahWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. For those whose reading comprehension is poor: nearly all Americans make poor food choices
and do not eat healthy diets and could eat more cheaply. It strictly has nothing to do with being poor. All Americans could eat more healthy and spend less overall on their food if they spent the time to prepare and cook it rather than rely on quick and easy processed food that is not healthy.

It takes time and effort and making good choices for anyone to eat healthy and also more cheaply. Processed foods are not cheaper than using whole ingredients and it does take an effort to choose foods that do not contain high fructose corn syrup which seems to be in everything and contributes to keeping Americans fat and unhealthy.

The food on my list is just what I was out of this week and is not what I will exclusively eat for the week. Some of the stuff I bought today will last for a couple of weeks and I am still using some stuff I bought last week. I could have spent that $44.09 on frozen tv dinners and other junk and not have gotten as much as I did, but I made good and healthy choices.

Food stamps: I'm there right now and use them and I know how far they will go and I know how to get the most for those dollars and not be hungry and eat healthy at the same time. Any family that makes better food choices and is willing to cook and prepare their own food will eat more cheaply and be more healthy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #29
92. those prices look pretty good, where do u live
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
123. These prices are really low. And you must have a car to be able to bring all that home
I'm glad you have access to low prices. Just scanning your list I can point to several examples where even my cheapest priced grocer is more expensive (Aldi - apple juice is 1.89 by me, orange juice is $2.19, 10 lbs of potatoes are $4.99....)

And you have to have a car I'm guessing or someone drives you. You have frozen items, and dairy items that need refrigeration pretty quickly. The potatoes and oranges alone are hard to buy and transport in bulk since they're so heavy let alone the liquid stuff. Transport makes an enormous difference when you're poor.

When I lived in Wheaton IL and worked at the food bank there, we had a lot of recent immigrants since World Relief and other evangelical agencies had headquarters there. The apartments where most of them lived were right next door to the 7-11, and 4 miles to the nearest grocery store with no bus service there. The food pantry was 4 miles in the other direction from the low income housing. I literally watched entire families struggle for miles with groceries in hand, even toddlers carrying something. I would stop and pick them up whenever I saw it. But of course, most of them just shopped at the 7-11.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
37. Our local farmer's market accepts food stamps
but that doesn't change the fact that the food there is priced HIGH! Not a lot of bang for the stamps.

It's a difficult problem for many. A combination of factors contribute to the overall unhealthy eating choices, and we need to educate everyone the best we can to make healthy choices available to people of all income levels.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
38. It is hard work eating healthy and cheap.
I'm not poor or on food stamps, but I spend a lot of time each week planning out healthy meals and looking for sales at the local grocery store for my wife and kids and I to eat healthy and cheap. It certainly would be easier to just go to the grocery store and buy a bunch of processed foods and unhealthy prepared meals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes, it is hard, and so many cannot relate at all to someone who works two jobs, or has small kids.
It is often a no-win situation, and there are so many who LOVE to judge and look down their regal noses.

Also, one of the "programs" is food banks. Anyone who thinks you can go to a food bank and request only "healthy" food is, indeed, delusional.

Thank you for understanding. Some days the hostility really gets to a person.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
59. It gets old. No doubt about it. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Cheap meaning $5 a dinner?
I've seen other people say cheap was $15 per dinner and I laugh out loud. I seriously doubt that is what you mean, but I do wonder what cheap looks like to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. K&R. And how do you "eat healthy" when you have nowhere to prepare
said healthy food? How many spices, implements, and appliances can one carry in their shopping cart? How does one store perishables when there is no electricity, let alone a refrigerator?

We both know this nation has virtually no conscience any longer, but these kinds of issues can make you :grr:
:kick: & R

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. So many condemn poor people, and so many cannot make connections.
How many threads have I seen, advocating putting homeless people in tiny, permanent dorms, and converting old grocery stores into one-room "apartments"? Yet, they cannot, for the life of them, make the connection between what they advocate there, and what you are saying.

Yet, they DARE to call poor people stupid!

This is what too much affluence does to peoples' brains.

Yes, I'll see you your :grr: and raise you a :nuke:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Bobbolink - I appreciate your posts
and your obvious committment to poverty and homelessness. Poverty, food choices, health and obesity; this combination is not a simple issue and the implications are huge. I grew up in poverty and we lived on "government surplus", dried eggs and all. I discovered healthy food in my late teens and my family ragged on me endlessly for eating "that funny food". Throuoghout my life, at times, I have been very poor and fed 5 kids on food stamps and I have been in positions where I could afford anything I wanted (and I really wanted that $30.00 bottle of awesome organic olive oil).

I am dismayed that people make excuses, but I know 'real life' and people have limited processing skills when poor, when depressed and when feeling quite helpless and hopeless. I sometime think that (knowing that we will not outlaw HFCS and other dangerous foods) that we should not make the choice so open to people getting assistance - but I understand the implications there also of demeaning someone by dictating to them.

I truly believe what we need is much, much more "COMMUNITY ORGANIZING" and people getting together to help each other on a community level. Co-ops, sharing transportation where there are food deserts (and believe me, I have seen plenty of urban areas with severe food deserts), community kitchens, gardens and sharing. I understand what I hear from both sides of this argument, but it is not as easy as many here claim. We cannot expect a person who has grown up in an environment and has learned to act and buy in a certain way to behave differently overnight.

I learned long ago about growing my own fresh greens and sprouts on the window sill, about slowcookers and putting in a bag of beans and a few veggies and having it all ready when I came home from work, about coops and buying in bulk, about always reading labels and about the serious dangers of processed food. But, I have been fortunate and run into the right people and I guess been at the right place at the right time. We should never be judgmental until we as a society have done all we can to seriously help everyone not as fortunate.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. Nope, I don't think you do appreciate them.
When you can tell me how to grow sprouts on the window sill of my car, then we can talk. You DO know I live in my car, right?

This superiority stuff is just sickening. Pat yourself on the back along with the others..... such ego strokes at the expense of people who are suffering.

Bye now......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
handmade34 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #73
75. You grow sprouts in your car just like I grow them in my car
I use an inverted mason jar. That is not a flippant statement, but a reality sometimes. I do not live in my car presently, I live in hotels. I must have communicated poorly because I truly appreciate your concerns and would never claim anything at the expense of others. I see the suffering everyday and have been there many times myself. Solutions won't come from anger, but when enough of us can work together to find them. Your response to my concern is curious...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #75
130. Clearly, you are a much better person than I am. Given that I am just angry, and all.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 02:49 PM by bobbolink
Some day I hope to be as calm and unangry as.... say.... Malcolm X.

Please, keep informing me of all my faults, and how you could improve me, as I'm sure that helps you to sleep better.

So long, now.....

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
madville Donating Member (743 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
53. Might be misunderstanding something here
Obesity is prevalent because calorie dense processed food tastes "good" and doesn't satisfy hunger for very long . People are obese because they eat too many calories. So going by those points if they bought healthier, more expensive foods, and obtained less calories in the end wouldn't they be healthier and possibly loss weight or maintain a healthier weight?

I would bet large sums of money that if organic healthier foods cost the same or less than unhealthy processed foods and sodas that people would still for the most part eat the unhealthy option because it tastes better to them. When they go to the all u can eat buffet do they get several heaping plates of salad or do they get several heaping plates of fried foods, mashed potatoes, and mac & cheese? There was a choice there correct?

I can prepare healthy cheap meals all day long for the same price or cheaper than 99% of the processed junk available at the store. Those meals won't have as many calories as "cheap" processed crap, won't have as much fat and will damn sure have less sugars. Our healthy meals shouldn't have as many calories, that's why we aren't obese.

Since healthier food is perceived as more expensive shouldn't that benefit the obese food stamp recipient in the end. If they bought healthier they would purchase fewer calories, leading to weight loss and possibly living a healthier lifestyle. Most have that choice, it would require knowledge of nutrition and food preparation, willpower, and sugary processed crap.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. I suggest you read the link. It would help clear up that misunderstanding.
Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. You are way misunderstanding. You need to read the article at the link.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 06:42 PM by laughingliberal
I bet you if fresh produce & good sources of protein were more affordable, more of the poor would opt for that. I'm betting you don't know many truly poor people if you think they're hitting the local buffet.

I'm not sure what the resistance here to knowing that eating well in America is expensive.

Perhaps it's just the decades old tradition now of blaming the poor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. The resistance is not wanting to give up having someone to look down on.
Racism is frowned on.

Homophobes aren't welcome in polite company.

Sexism is stubborn, but little by little is fading.

The only bastion left for bigots is poor folk.

And we are fair game, because we don't have any big organizations behind us. Even on DU, it has been made clear that we are fair game.

Fuck it all. I'm to the point of not giving a flying fuck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. You are not talking about poor people, you're talking about
middle class people who make enough income to pig out at those all you can eat buffets. Poor people don't have that kind of income.

True poverty means fewer choices and even if you know how to cook, as I do, it means eating a lot of starchy filler so your stomach doesn't hurt between meals. Whole grain starch is still starch.

While knowing how to cook can certainly increase your chances of staying healthy on a poverty diet, it won't keep you healthy for long. When money limits your ability to choose nutritious food instead of filler, you eat filler.

People who don't know how to cook eat day old balloon bread with marked down bologna and count themselves lucky to get it. Yes, it makes them fat and unhealthy, but it's not like they have the ability to choose steak, instead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #53
100. Read the ENTIRE article; not just the snip. You are misunderstanding. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
60. Trying to make every aspect of being poor about a negative personal attribute is a common tactic.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 05:31 PM by JoeyT
"I'm not stupid and lazy, so I'll never be poor or overweight." sort of thing.

They're not stupid or lazy, they're just poor. When you have X amount of money and it isn't enough, you have to get as many calories for that money as possible or someone is going to starve. Sugar, fat, and starches are cheap calories. The first two because we're subsidizing the wrong industries, the last one because starches are easy to produce in huge quantities and don't go bad very quickly.
Sure it's healthy to eat pasta with tomatoes, but when you can't afford tomatoes you just eat pasta.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. You have it exactly right. Blaming makes people feel safe.
I learned this a lot of years ago, when my son was kidnapped. Some were very cruel in their blaming of me... "What kind of mother lets this happen?" By distancing themselves from me in this way, and painting me as defective and them as superior, it made them feel safe. They were assured that they would never suffer the pain of having a child kidnapped.

What you are describing is the same process. You can hear the superiority just drip from their posts, and they feel safe that they will NEVER be on the receiving end.

"United We Stand"

:puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
87. There are few things more annoying than an upper-middle class "social worker".
To them we are those "poor things" that must have our decisions made for us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
64. k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eyeofdelphi Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
70. Don't even get me started on WIC
my 2 year old gets WIC, he gets like 3 and a half gallons of milk a month, a block of cheese, cereal, eggs, juice (cannot be light), and a whole whopping $6 for fresh fruits and vegetables. even with a note from the doctor saying that he needs to have almost no sugar in his diet, they won't change anything. how is $6 of fresh produce a month going to help? i mean i'm glad for what we get, but it's mostly fat and empty calories.
i would be totally fine with them allotting certain amounts of food stamps for fruits and veggies only. i mean, did you know you can buy gum and candy bars with food stamps? i swear. i didn't grab the candy bar my kid through on the register before the cashier rung it up and didn't think about it till later when i was unpacking the groceries. the food stamps paid for the candy. why? that's not food.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DonCoquixote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
71. Attention "middle class"
Some of the response I hear on this thread make it seem like all the poor have to do is go down to Whole Foods and pick up some organic veggies. And people wonder why Vegans and Organic types are looked at as snobs! Here's a news flash, good food is expensive, and kept that way, whereas cheap food is subsidized so that the poor can have nice, cheap little lives, (and early deaths). But no, every suburban person loves to believe that if only THOSE people would just obey them, life would be a blast. And people wonder why the right wing has a lock on poor areas like the South (here's a hint, the churches run the food pantries, whereas many so called liberals do not even dare get near the poor, much less buy any "organic" food.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Yes, you are seeing the elitism. Everytime I post something like this, more people
come to see the true (and ugly) face of the more affluent "progressive".

And what they see is disturbing to them. I know, because I hear from them. It is quite enlightening, in a very negative way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #71
86. It's the Calvinist mindset. "You are poor and fat because of your sinful ways!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
74. I'd like to go one step further, if I may.
The truly poor and the homeless, just fucking leave them alone. It's called survival. I've never walked in those shoes, and I hope to God I never do. But seriously, if folks on DU are calling them stupid or lazy...well, I've got a bone to pick with them.

I'm a sports nutritionist x3 and have made it a big part of my life, so I'm willing to bet that I know more than a vast percentage of the DU community on the topic. As a vegan, it narrows even further. I can also tell you that regardless of your "class" 90% of this country doesn't know how to properly eat, nutritionally. So when "too stupid and too lazy to eat well" comes up, I have to laugh at far too many rich people to point fingers at.

Food stamps and like programs, last I checked, offer no real nutritional training. So shut the hell up. Survival is a cruel mistress. There you go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ramulux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
76. I know this all too well
I have been living off about $5 a week for food for like 2 years. There are like a handful of items I can buy to make the price to meal ratio work. Basically I am restricted to cheap $1 boxes of pasta, store brand bread, frozen cans of orange juice and big bags of crappy frozen chicken.

I can honestly say in all seriousness that I am a million times more conservative than any republican in terms of the actual definition of the word conservative. Rich pieces of shit who spend hundreds of dollars on unnecessarily expensive food have no idea what its like actually having to conserve money to survive. If I mess up and lose 5 dollars or accidentally spend a little too much, I dont get too eat that day unless I go ask my neighbors for leftovers or something.

Our politicians have no fucking idea what the poor in this country are going through and apparently no amount of suffering will make them acknowledge it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
79. k/r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KitSileya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
80. Amen!
Our former prime minister, Gro Harlem Brundtland, then head of the WHO, tried to challenge the sugar industry, and got soundly knocked down for her effort. Unhealthy food is subsidized, and healthy food is expensive to buy, and you need both equipment to store it and cook it that you don't really need with unhealthy food. If you only have a microwave oven, it's easier to buy unhealthy microwave meals than to try to cook fresh vegetables, lean protein, etc. If you don't have a freezer, unhealthy food full of conservatives store longer than healthy food.

Most importantly, if you cannot afford to buy all your own food, food banks and other programs are also constrained by these facts,a nd therefore they cannot give out/serve healthy, nutritious food. Unhealthy food is cheaper, and if it isn't cheaper, it's less labor-intensive than the cheap healthy alternative, so it's cheaper on time/effort.

I can see that many here on DU still don't understand poverty - and have imbibed the repuke/protestant mantra that it's the poor's own fault that they are poor, and if only they stopped being lazy and stupid and started learning how to cook and actually cooked, they would manage to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Kudos, Bobbolink, for your work to try to enlighten these 'progressives' with the truth.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
83. Also, the poor don't have an SUV to haul their groceries. Might live in a motel next to their short-
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 07:45 AM by WinkyDink
order cook job. Might live in urban areas with high-priced foods in tiny stores unlike the large suburban ones. Can't afford the Sunday papers with coupons.

To the obtuse: "Nickel and Dimed", people; "Nickel and Dimed."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
85. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
89. Thanks for this. I got into an emotional argument over this last week.
I was shaking. She said "The biggest problem poor people have is obesity"

will forward this article.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
90. In Indiana, in 1970, my best friend's father ran the county's low-income
food distribution center. Every month, they gave out boxes of food, and sometimes my friend and I would go there to help him & the staff prepare the boxes. Each family got:

a LARGE box of Carnation powdered milk
a 10# bag of rice
a 10# bag of flour
a 10# bag of sugar
a large can of Crisco
3 or 4 bags of red beans, white beans, split peas, chickpeas, etc
canned tuna, salmon & mackerel
a case of assorted canned vegetables & fruits
2 large jars of peanut butter
a large box of saltine crackers
2 or 3 large packages of pasta (spaghetti & macaroni)
a bag of cornmeal
a couple of containers of oatmeal


They also got a large box of laundry soap
toothpaste
bar soap & shampoo

People with babies also got a case of baby food and dry cereal.

They also got the ubiquitous government cheese, and eggs & butter. In the summer, he would often get fresh veggies that would be set out on tables in the parking lot.

Even though a lot of these people did not have much in the way of permanent transportation, every month they managed to get their food home. I don't know if food stamps were available in Indiana in 1970, but the food given away is very much like what WIC gives out now
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clear Blue Sky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
94. Exactly. Whole Foods isn't cheap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #94
162. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
96. Looks like you brought 'em out again.

Where do you find all of these arrogant people, Bobbie?

k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #96
127. I must be a magnet.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 02:45 PM by bobbolink
:rofl:

:hi:

Upon reflection, I am going to enlarge on that thought, and I hope you will consider what I am saying.

The ugliness and ignorance here exemplifies what poor people live with every day, and it doesn't just come from those we would like to blame---the RW. It comes from those who say how much they care about us.

But, as I keep saying, that "caring" is often just using us for their own purposes. Like saying that the wars should be ended so that more money can be spent on us poor folk. Yet, we can see from these posts that none of that would change.... most of these people are quite content to not only let us continue to suffer, but to BLAME us for that suffering.

Given the preponderance of the ignorance you see here, it is clear why so many of you don't want to even think about poverty. It isn't a popular topic, it is divisive, and you all would have to stand up to the ignorance, and that isn't nearly as much fun as going to an anti-war rally, dressed in a costume, where you all can slap each other on the back for having the same views.

I'm not supposed the shine the light on all of this. I am supposed to be content with the lack of concern, the lack of action, and say it is all OK that we are at the bottom of the priority list.

BUT, it is most certainly NOT OK, and threads like this show the true nature of the Democratic party, and the attitude of so many "progressives".

We poor folk stand alone, and soon the party won't see our votes.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. +1,000,000,000,000!
:applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #127
149. Well said. Bravo! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #96
170. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
98. I appreciate you trying. K&R (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
99. delete - dupe
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 11:00 AM by redqueen
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertDiamond Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
102. I suspect some real education is what would solve the problem. One doesn't need calorie dense foods
that's what I've learned on my raw vegan diet. In our culture we think we need to eat a lot, and have certain things like carbs and animal protein. But as a raw vegan I've learned just a few leaves of romaine lettus will last longer and I will feel better and think more clearly. But, we are brainwashed to think that this would be "starvation." Actually, a really healthy body can even skip a day of eating and use the day to cleanse itself instead.

Right now while going through a financial crisis, I have lived on a couple of handfuls of raw almonds per day, and when that runs out, nothing. And I have never had so much energy nor thought so clearly in my life! I feel fantastic!

But, our society calls this "starvation" and so if we believe that we suffer mentally, and we run out to get some nice processed carbs and animal products the minute we can. And then need more, because that really didn't nourish our bodies very well. Just another of many examples of how our erroneous thinking causes us to suffer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #102
109. They aren't eating for calories.
They are eating for pleasure, for comfort. They see a world around them filled with this they will never have or experience. But they CAN enjoy that bag full of sugary, salty goodness that costs 2 bucks on the food stamp card.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #102
152. Education is most definitely needed.
But, it isn't people who are poor who are most in need of that education.

It is the arrogant who need a good dose of reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
103. I keep reading this and, while it may be true nationally, I
don't see much evidence of it in my grocery store.

If I buy produce in season, it's generally on sale and nearly as cheap as a box of cheap mac n' cheese. Turkey hot dogs cost only slightly more than pork hot dogs. Frozen veggies are cheaper than frozen pizzas.

Don't get me wrong. I'm NOT making light of this. I realize every penny counts on a fixed income. Trust me. I was very, very poor after I separated from by abusive, cheating husband who failed to pay child support quite often, but I don't remember my son and I eating horridly unhealthy food during those lean years - and I was not eligible for food stamps. I made "too much money" to go on the program, but, in reality, made too little money. Sometimes I'd feed my dogs and son and I'd eat a can of beans or nothing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
107. once again, it's not all or nothing.
this apologia is actually limiting - since "poor people" are defined by much more than whether or not they are on food stamps.

I do agree that limited budgets limit one's access to healthier foods, but it doesn't keep one from making healthy choices when given a choice.

The problem I have with this tripe is that it is a convenient little blanket of smug to cover up giving up on trying harder when the opportunity exists.

I donate regularly to a food bank that has solid staples and little "junk" food. The fact is if somebody who is poor and fat is looking for MORE calories from soft drinks because fruit juice doesn't have enough then THEY ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE.

I really am not trying to be callous or unsympathetic, but there is more than a little bit of stupidity and grandiosity in Drewnowski's pronouncement.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
108. Here is my thoughts from personal experience.
When you are poor. So poor that you are on welfare, there is very little for entertainment or that feeling of pleasure beyond food, tv and sex. When you have a comfortable living you tend to go out more places and do more things. Your world is broader then just your four walls and maybe the local park, IF it is safe. Sometimes the most exciting time of a kids month is right after the food stamps come in because then they get some "treats".

Poor people eat sugar filled crap because for a few minutes of a shitty day, it FEELS GOOD.

In the scheme of their shitty world, Food, sex, alcohol ( sometimes drugs)replace things most people get enjoyment from without a second thought.

After a crappy day at a minimum wage job people just are not thinking about health and diet. They want easy foods because they are tired and stressed and often times lack the skills to cook. You have a HUGE amount of young parents who have NO idea how to cook anything beyond hamburger helper.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlegendary Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
110. I buy as much fattening food as I can..
When I eat "healthy foods" I drop weight so fast you can count every rib on my body visually. As a result I go out of my way to try to keep some weight on me. I buy as much processed food as I can to keep the little weight on me that i can.
Of course I have an undiagnosed disease that has my legs looking like sticks and I walk with a cane so I go through ice cream by the bucket load, but even if I wanted to eat the so called 'healthy foods' I couldn't afford them.
Whenever any product has "healthy" on the label ESPECIALLY a label with "organic" the price is jacked up so far out of reach that us 'lazy stupid" consumers can't afford them anyway..
Obese.. Yeah, right..I have to stand up two or three times to make a shadow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
111. It's time we stopped lumping the poor and the needy into the same helpless and pathetic box,
or that they are lazy and unable to make good choices. Clearly there are many issues for the poor and the needy regarding food and eating that are beyond their control, but like everyone else, rich or poor or in between, for those who do have the control and the ability it is possible to make better food choices and to eat more cheaply.

I grew up poor in the late 50s and early 60s, but I never really knew it. My mother raised 3 kids on her own, working 6 days a week as a bookkeeper at a local auto dealer. No food stamps back then, really no other help for food, but we always had enough to eat and I never remember being hungry. Of course we were convinced that fruit cocktail was dessert and we never had cookies, cake, chips, or soda around to have whenever we liked. In fact, to have a soda was a special treat, or any candy but then we did have the penny candy stores. Back then there were not as many processed foods and people did have to cook more. My mom came home from work at 5 p.m. and cooked for us kids (not simple or easy).

We didn't have a car so what passed for a supermarket back then would deliver our groceries. My mom didn't have a lot of choices, but she did the best she could with the choices she had and that's all you can ask or expect of anyone. I think my mom would have resented it if anyone had suggested that just because she and her family were poor that she could not make the best choices she could or that she was somehow lazy.

The poor and the needy today have choices the same as back then and for those who are able, they can make better choices and eat more healthy and eat cheaper. People can work hard and do the best they can, just like my mom, and still be poor and it's not their fault, they are not to blame. But I wouldn't condescend to lump all poor and needy people together when it comes to food issues and claim that everything is beyond their control and that they just can't help it if they don't eat well or if they eat poorly. As far as it is within their power anybody can do better as far as food and food choices go and it has little to do with income.

I am currently on food stamps (I posted in #29 what I just bought) and I think I've learned to make good food choices and to stretch my food dollars to go as far as possible. I could have used that money to buy lots of tv dinners and other heavily processed food that would not only not be good for me but would be more expensive and if I did that each week I would run out of foodshare dollars. Fortunately I have education enough to make good food choices (if I choose because I could also choose not to make good choices) and I have a car and there are supermarkets near to me.

Clearly, not everyone on food stamps has the advantages that I do. Maybe there are no good stores nearby, maybe they do not have a car and those things are beyond their control. But everyone has something, no matter how small, within their control and anything is better than nothing. We don't have to play the good and noble Liberals reaching down to help those poor and needy people on food stamps (like me).

I'm poor again now and I grew up poor. It's not a crime to be poor and many good people are poor, but it is wrong not to make the best choices within your power when it is within your ability to do so. This is exactly the same for everyone and god knows that the rich make many terrible choices that hurt many more people than just themselves.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
112. As always, thank you for bringing attention to the realities of poverty
as evidenced from some of the replies to your post ... many people have no idea what it means to be truly poor.

I have done a lot of work in the City of Detroit .... let me assure you there are no "Super Markets," farmers markets or produce markets that are available to the poor of that city. It shocks me whenever I enter a small grocer in the city and see prices that are significantly higher than those of the large grocery stores in the surrounding suburbs .... there are essentially no foods sold in bulk and fresh produce is either limited (or anything but "fresh").

The cost and availability of food in many urban areas helps keep many poor people entrenched in a cycle of poverty.

All that's missing from this thread are the usual posts reporting ... "I saw someone buying chips and soda with food stamps" ... "a cake" .... or whatever else the sanctimonious have decided poor folk do not deserve to have (ever).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
115. I would insist that AMERICANS are just too stupid and too lazy to eat well.
and considering my lunch was potato chips, Mexican bean dip and chocolates. I am proud to be an American.


I also think that obesity among the poor is due as much to the ethnic and culture make-up of that subgroup than it is to their economic status.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Billmelater Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
117. G20 war on people
Last weekend the G20 declared war on the people--promising to halve deficits in two years means the big squeeze is coming.
Expect food prices to double, triple.....

With the gas price spike of 2008, the price of food almost doubled. Crisis deflected (hidden)--gas price went back to 'normal', food prices stayed the same.

Our priorities are seriously corrupted when the price of gas is cheaper than the price of milk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
120. Junk food is convenient, tasty (enough), and filling.
Poor people work exhausting jobs for little pay. Preparing a good meal from scratch takes time, and cleaning up after takes time. It becomes daunting after being on your feet for eight hours a day. I don't blame anyone who doesn't have the time, money, or energy required to eat healthy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #120
135. i've become friendly with a woman
who works in the grocery store. she works in the cold cuts department. we were talking the other day and she is amazed at how many people buy prepared tuna salad and egg salad. they're really easy to make. i told i think people are just too tired to cook anything after working all day.

BTW. my friend is 69. she's not working because she's bored. she needs the money. her husband still works too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
122. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flatulo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
125. Isn't it true that high sugar foods make you more hungry?
If you can only afford pasta, whole grain is a better choice because it produces a lower spike in the blood sugar and reduced cravings for more later.

Same with bread - I think whole grain costs about the same as plain white.

Sugary, calorie-dense foods are a bad idea. We need more fiber, not more starch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
126. We walked through the only grocery store on a Wi Rez last spring
We had a hard time coming up with ANYTHING to make that was not laden with fat and salt. The produce section was literally one small refrigerated case and a couple of shelves with bananas.

There was NO choice for these folks and they were out in the middle of nowhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
crim son Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
128. It isn't stupidity or laziness for the poor any more than it is for the
wealthy, and for the very poor i.e. those who actually go physically hungry it is true that adequate caloric intake is difficult on a very limited budget however I think the notion that anybody who seriously cares for their or their kids' health would consider buying soda in lieu of fruit juice, not if they know anything about eating/drinking well: it's like comparing apples and oranges when neither the apples nor the oranges are a necessary part of the equation.

There are so many people who believe that all it takes to make food healthy is to cook it at home, so many people who would rather eat a Wendy's complete meal (minimum $6.00) than buy a loaf of bread, some cheese and veggies and make a healthful sandwich. Poor or well off, ignorance abounds and sometimes I have difficulty understanding why. I have lived in the woods and had friends too poor to have indoor plumbing, yet they eat well; and I've had friends with three SUVs who actually think that "fruit ribbons" are a good snacking choice for their kids. It's a complex issue, made more complex by the fact that people don't have time to shop effectively, let alone spend two hours in the kitchen every day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DesertFlower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
129. when i married my first husband in 1960
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 02:50 PM by DesertFlower
we didn't have much. i bought chop meat that cost 29 cents a lb. the chicken pot pies were about 25 cents. he had the nerve to complain that i didn't buy chuck chopped meat.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #129
133. You are so right. Nothing at all has changed since those days.
:eyes:

See you in the morning.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
131. Very true...anything healthy is more expensive...
...I notice it every time i shop.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
134. Hopefully you can convince those saying these things
because they haven't a clue... and if they did, we'd all be better off for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #134
141. If you read those comments on this thread, then you know that leaving it up to me means nothing will
change.

Somehow I thought we were all in this together, but obviously I was wrong.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. You misunderstood me... and you are not alone
this thread is yours, as for the rest, it's up to us all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
145. Americans hate the poor because they fear they will become one of them
And, apparently, it is easier to be an uncaring sociopath and/or simply braindead.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #145
147. You are absolutely correct. By blaming us, they ensure that they can feel safe knowing that
they are better people so it won't happen to them.

And poor people who turn and blame and judge other poor people do it for the same reason lower economic people vote republican..... they like associating with and feeling accepted by those with more power. The equivalent of the Uncle Toms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
156. Recommended while I still could and now kicking for additional
exposure. "Choice has little to do with it." So true and more people need to read this.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #156
157. People can read it, and read many articles stating these facts, but it won't change their minds.
They are invested in blaming poor people.

They gain from blaming poor people.

It is never going to stop, no matter how much evidence they are presented with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #157
174. Kick for truth
Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours pm me next time, I miss your good ones!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #156
167. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
160. Raging class war!
Edited on Sat Jul-03-10 12:19 PM by lonestarnot
And we only have one rager. He lives in Miami!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
161. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
168. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
176. KICK!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
miscsoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
177. Also, unhealthy food does often make you feel better
If you're depressed and hopeless. I'm pretty fat, losing weight now, but I've only started eating healthier since my prospects turned up recently.

I'll wager that low-income obesity does have a lot to do with the fact that eating, you know, a burger is pleasurable. Not THAT pleasurable, maybe, but when comfort is hard to come by you DO end up thinking "fuck it, i'll go to KFC, it'll make me feel good for a little while". That's why I do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #177
178. Its not called "comfort food" for nothing. Thank you for adding this!
Which means that we could do a lot to change this by changing the life circumstances of a lot of people.

And for others, by learning how to be there for them when they need a kind listening ear.

You brought up a very good point... thank you!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Oct 21st 2014, 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC