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Is it OK with members here if the Honda plant in Ohio does not want to be unionized?

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:41 PM
Original message
Is it OK with members here if the Honda plant in Ohio does not want to be unionized?
It seems the workers at the Honda plant in Ohio are doing quite well. No layoffs in 30 years!!

Do people here think Honda is mistreating these Ohio employees? Taking advantage of them?

Can people understand the workers at these plants not being excited about becoming UAW members when Honda has treated them pretty well?

I know this place is very Pro-Union but is it possible that a autoworker can be treated fairly without the UAW being involved?






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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. They have to because of unions
and everything unions have fought for for 100 years. I don't understand why non-union workers don't get that.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. But they should unionize because of past history?
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. noooooo, the threat of unionization is what keeps the employer
treating the workers well.

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Maybe true. I also hope keeping the workers happy helps the company!
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. Not really
There's no need for a company to keep its workers happy when there are so many people waiting in line for jobs.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
177. You don't know much about management or leadership,
do you?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #12
55. So because the workers are happy (you say) it helps the company and therefore should restrict Union
activity or the chance to vote for the UAW?


How do you know ALL of the workers in the plant are happy and don't want the Union? Were they given a chance to vote in the past 5 years? And how many of those happy workers from the past 30 years are retired with pensions from that plant?


It amazes me how people think that if a worker is happy today they don't need to unionize or negotiate to Unionize.

Your employer does NOT have a right to:
Interfere with, restrain or coerce you in such a way as to prevent you from exercising the rights listed above.
Form a union that is financed or controlled by an employer, instead of by you and your coworkers.
Discriminate against you or your coworkers in hiring and firing simply because you have chosen to join (or not to join) a union.
Fire you because you have exercised any of your rights under the National Labor Relations Act, including your right to file complaints and testify against your employer if you believe he or she has violated your rights.
Refuse to bargain collectively with you and your coworkers, if you choose to form a union.
The above limits on employer activity are spelled out in Section 8(a) of the National Labor Relations Act.

http://www.uaw.org/node/165

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crazyjoe Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
65. or move their plant to mexico......
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. Yes
They get all those goodies because Honda fears the Unions and if the unions die Honda will no longer be so nice.


This is the way it was at my last job. We were the only non union site and got treated with special gloves. We got all the benefits of others doing the Union work while we just sat back and enjoyed the rewards.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. .
:thumbsup:
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
166. End of thread post right there
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. People generally don't unionize unless the boss is a bastard
Once you figure that out, you begin to understand a lot of things about unions.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Unless of course you want Health Benifits or a Retirement
But your friendly neighborhood RATpubliCON would insist your just a LazY Non-Working Socialist for even suggesting forming a union
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
27. Uh, bosses who don't offer that are the bastards.
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justanaverageguy Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
59. I must be a bastard then
because I don't offer either and really don't plan to.

How about this, how about I pay you an agreed upon wage and you take care of your own retirement and health care? Nobody is taking care of mine. Managing the normal business of my company takes all the time and resources I have. I'm not in the business of managing a retirement fund and a health care system. That's not my area of expertise nor is it a management burden that I want to deal with.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #59
68. You, yourself don't have health care? Or you don't provide it for your employees? nt
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justanaverageguy Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
79. I have my own health care insurance
It's not a great plan (High deductible and so on), but it does the trick. It' not through my company that I own or through my wife's employer.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. So you basically buy your own insurance, right? nt
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #93
140. I see I got the usual crickets as a reply. nt
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #79
141. you are about to be attacked
you most likely are a small business as is my wife
she makes enough delivering health care to low income women to show a small profit
all the "fruits"are from her labor and our financial risk
she has 1 employee and while the employee is well paid no "benefits" are offered as that would render the clinic profitless
i am sure you are in a similar position

pay little attention to the gasbags here who would instruct you on how to operate your business as most are not qualified to operate their vocal chords and have mostly run only their own mouths
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #141
143. the poster failed to answer anyones questions...
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 09:41 AM by Javaman
that leaves him or her open for questions regarding their sincerity.

Some people call it attacking, those of us asking the questions call it, "calling someone on their position".

If a poster takes a stand, then they better be able to defend it.

And it appears as if the poster chooses not to defend their position by answering our questions which then leaves them open to suspect.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #143
150. guilty until proven otherwise then?
Edited on Sat Jul-03-10 10:12 AM by SwampG8r
and your claim under scrutiny has as little truth to it as you are willing to allow his
check the exchange
he answered every question you had andyou are the only one asking him to "prove" anything
he clearly states he provides his own insurance outside of his company or his wifes job

i really dont want to argue with anyone and i myself, other than the fact that i sympathize with a small busness owner trying to actually turn a profit, have no dog is this hunt
but please check the exchange and tell me where i am wrong about you being wrong
specifically using only the subthread he replied to
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. No, I never said guilty, did I?
Edited on Sat Jul-03-10 12:08 PM by Javaman
I said suspect.

If one is unable to back up accusations or positions, then their opinion becomes suspect.

Making broad brush claims such as the original post did, and yet has still not supported, would make anyone suspect his motivation.

It's really that simple.

I'm not arguing, I'm simply stating my position, which again, the original poster has yet to do.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #150
176. So your/his/her employees should find their own heath care?
That's why the public option was so important, so small business owners as yourself/selves wouldn't/shouldn't feel the need to offer it to your employee(s).

Except it appears many small owners bought into the Tea Baggers' claims about "socialized" medicine and how it will destroy "capitalism."
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #141
188. That would be ridiculous.
Small businesses and factories are two different animals.
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #59
69. How about this: you'd rather pocket benefits $$ than give it to your employees.
So they vote to join a union to force you to share the fruits of their labors.

How about that?

The law says they can do that. Darned good law.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #69
169. You forget about the other possibility.
"........pocket benefits $$ than give it to your employees."

Most small businesses are pretty much out of luck trying to buy insurance for their employees. They can't leverage the insurance companies like the government can. Medicare tell health care providers, "This is what we're paying take it or leave it." Large groups and corporations wrangle discounts by saying, "You want our eleventy-bazzillion employees trade, cut us a deal."

Small business and individuals go looking for health care and they get told, "Bend over and spread 'em."

Next time you are having a prescription filled, ask the pharmacist what the cash money price is for the drug your are getting. Next time you go to your doctor for a routine office visit, ask what the cash up front price is. That is what they mean by "cost shifting!" All you have is cash, and you get shafted.

Most small businesses are a near run thing. Cash flow can be a real problem as you try to collect for work your company has done and pay your taxes, suppliers and employees. There are times when you sweat 'making payroll.'

I have seen both sides. I spent 26 tears in the Army, '3 hots and cot', 'the eagle shits once a month', get to camp out, shoot guns and blow stuff up, plus a pretty good benefits and retirement package until Les Aspin and Patrica Schroeder started screwing with it. Just about secure as a paycheck gets.

I have just as much time working for a small family business. I have witnessed my sister's annual agonies with health care providers as she tries to keep what meager benefits the four non-related employees get affordable. The "on-call", the after-hours emergencies, all those are burdens of 'family'. The principles are in their late sixties. When the vagaries of commerce call for it, it is our salaries that are on the deferred payment plan. The next generation has no inclination to be part of a "hands-on technical services industry."

One thing all of us on the shop floor understand, if the 'company' fails we are ALL unemployed. Our customers do not 'owe' us their trade. The company does not 'owe' us our jobs. If there is any equity in the business, it won't be realized until the estate sale.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #59
82. You're on the wrong website entirely. nt
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #59
92. Got any idea how much individual health care costs? You're gonna losw a LOT of quality workers--
maybe they have pre-existing conditions or dependents who do.

Good luck, Mr. "Average."
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #59
95. Your business must be a failure if you can't offer standard market rate benefits.
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #59
97. That way you cheat yourself and your employees out of cheaper group rates
but then some folks would rather work the employees to death and then hire somebody cheaper.
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booley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
102. Yes because things are cheaper ...
When things are bought individually rather then in bulk by many.

Oh and I suppose you will give me extra money to make sure I can afford to get these things myself?

Wasn't there a time when benefits were seen as a way to get good workers?
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #59
175. What kind of business do you have?
How many employees? I'm going to guess you have no employees in your imaginary business and your only product is right wing talking points. Imaginary or not, your story is another fine example of why tying health insurance to employment is a crazy idea that has been rejected by the rest of the world.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
180. Sounds like you are a "bootstraps" kind of guy
I only hope that your employees have boots...yet somehow I don't think they do...
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vanbean Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
145. Rightio! The best way for a company to stay union free is to eliminate the need for one.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Some employers do get it...
Look at Costco, for instance.

We all LOVE Costco......but it's not unionized. They take good care of their staff, and the staff appreciates it.

Unions come in when employees are abused. That abuse is key. If the staff is well treated and not abused, unions tend to not get voted in...

So, yes, it's entirely possible that an autoworker can be treated fairly without the UAW being involved.

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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. +1.. If all companies operated like Costco there wouldn't be a need for unions
And I don't think unionization should be forced on anyone. If the majority of employees are happy then they can always form a union later if they start getting screwed over.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
101. My company is DEATHLY afraid of unionization. Thus, we get
excellent benefits. Sometimes the threat of unionization does just as much good as the actual union. However, if Unions didn't exist then neither would the threat.

Therefore, Unions have a positive effect on all major companies.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #101
119. I agree completely. (nt)
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
126. We don't ALL love Costco....
just like some of us realize that there's essentially no difference between Wal-Mart and Target.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #126
127. What have you got against Costco?
I never shop in Wal-Mart, and only occasionally in Target.

:shrug:
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superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #127
128. I reject the entire paradigm of consumerism as some sort of political statement.
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. OK, I had a look.
I'm not surprised that they've had problems. I don't suppose there's any retailer that hasn't.

And I don't shop there because I want to make a political statement; I found out about their practices after I joined.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've often said that if employers always treated workers well we wouldn't need unions
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:48 PM by proud2BlibKansan
And you and I both know that will never happen. Just because these workers are treated well now doesn't mean they always will be treated well.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think the unions can cause their own issues! They are not 100% perfect either.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. Which issue?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:09 PM by Codeine
What negative element of Labor even BEGINS to rise to the level of the bullshit perpetrated by Capital?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
83. THey never have an answer for that, do they?
I know unions are (fill in the blank)... that is indisputably self evident, so I don''t need to back it up! Like clockwork.
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MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
134. Unions are no better than the people that run them...
much like corporations. Corporations are more plentiful, but unions can be just as bad as corporations, even if they have less power here as a whole.

A big factor in why the Big 3 failed as bad as they did and two of them needed government bailouts like those giant banks was because of unionization. Not the only factor. But the unions worked with those corporations to instill policies that would eventually lead to their downfall. They actively sought tariffs be imposed on other competitors, which only hurt labor of the competitors in other nations, not to mention labor in related markets here and consumers here, all to their benefit. One small group benefitting at the cost of the many. I think all workers in any industry would like the government to eliminate competition by law so that they could raise prices on consumers and not have to worry about product quality. Of course, we all saw where that eventually led. And that was the result of incredibly greedy and selfish behavior by... unions! As well as corporations.

Unions have very specefic interests, like corporations. They only look out for themselves. They will do things that hurt other corporations or other labor if it helps them. They're just another interest group of sorts. They'll push for laws that may in fact be bad, but if it makes their industry, and in turn their workers, more money, they'll push for them.

One of my friend's partners works as a mail carrier for the US Postal Service. She's young and a part-timer. The unionized members treat her like crap as they are full time and pretty much can't get fired where as she can easily get fired as a part-timer. She of course is going for the full-time position, but that is based on seniority and how long you have worked there. They don't have enough money to hire more people, so as people retire, the coveted full-time slots open up and are filled by seniority.

None of the part-time workers have health insurance or benefits. Unionized members give them the hardest, longest routes while they usually get done in a few hours and spend the rest of the day in a certain Wendy's restaurant, where by some obscure rule it is ok for them to sit around for the rest of the work day and get paid in full.

Basically, the description reminds me of the "good ol boy" network and promotion based on seniority and "paying your dues" that some corporations are so infamous for. But this is a union. Just goes to show that unions can indeed be as bad as corporations. Not to mention that if the emphasis is on what is best for the workers in the short term, it can often be at the expense of the viability of the corporation in the long term, which is bad news for workers in the long term.

The best solution would be to have a government that heavily regulated unions and corporations as an impartial third actor that is looking out for all Americans, not just some Americans that are more organized than others or have more votes in important tiny states due to crazy-ass election laws.

Unions are not inherently bad, just like corporations. But they aren't inherently good either.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
168. Ask Jimmy Hoffa where the Teamster pension money went?NT
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. And the agenda comes trotting out....nt
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Dogtown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #24
51. Exactly!
I was waiting for the "Right to Work(tm)" talking points to pop up.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #7
49. Which issues?
Do tell.
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MattBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
89. Give it up... He has no intention of answering
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. Reagan GOOD - Unions BAD
lets drop the Ditto Head Mentality once and for all
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Wow, jump to conclusions much?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
11. There is no downside to unionizing the entire auto industry in the US.
That even folks on a progressive discussion board fail to grasp the importance of Labor is maddening.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. You honestly think the unions have had NO issues in the past? Did anything wrong?
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Sure they have.
But not even a tiny bit close to what the employers have done. On the balance Labor has been a net positive, thus any bad is outweighed by a much greater good -- no downside.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
44. the main issue was collaboration with management
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
77. There are mechanisms for employees to deal with bad unions.
Many many moons ago my dad was in an engineers union, and their local chapter became extremely corrupt. I'm talking "lost voting boxes", "goons preventing discussions during chapter meetings", "presidents cousin is treasurer", "presidents other cousin is VP", "employees take a paycut while the president gets a new car" corrupt. Lots of lunches with management, and the dues kept going up, even though everyone swore they were voting against them. The national union wouldn't help, so they did the unthinkable.

They threw out their union and created a new Association for their roughly 400 employees. They had lower dues, better bylaws, and rules that prevented that sort of corruption from happening again. The company refused to recognize them at first, but relented when they announced their intention to strike.

The nice thing about unions is that they can be changed when they're corrupt. Unlike bosses.

There is nothing saying that it has to be the UAW representing Honda workers. I'm sure the UAW would love the job, but there are other options. My dad's old employer paid pretty well and offered a good benefits package, so their primary purpose was to assist and represent workers at grievance hearings. I don't care HOW good Honda's pay and benefits are, ALL workers can use that sort of help.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
50. I think the "downside" to national unionization
is the distinct possibility that every new plant or venture by every single auto maker would very likely occur in places which don't require or even allow unions. Just like the medium sized 3 have consistently opened shop in Mexico and other bastions of unregulated labor practices. No, collective bargaining and union power was summarily flushed down the shitter with the betrayal of labor by both parties in the signing of union busting trade agreements. Like it or not, the obvious elephant in the corner downside is restriction-free trade between 3rd world labor countries and the US.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
71. +10
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. That's like not buying car insurance
because you've never been in an accident.

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. So for 30 years they have been unhappy? Not at all. They have voted it down many times.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Because they're scared and easily manipulated.
It's fucking sad.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
30. Dont forget all the decks in the house are stacked
Unionizing is a BITCH.

I dunno if they are EASILY manipulated. There are tons of expensive consultants flown in whenever somebody is trying to unionize, to sell them the idea that they don't need it.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. True enough.
You're completely correct.
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Bill McBlueState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Oddly,
that has little if anything to do with what I said.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. Does right-wing rhetoric ever operate without non sequiturs?
Not that I know of.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. In a perfect world we wouldn't need unions.
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I agree that in a perfect world we wouldn't need unions
And I've never been in a union. But I also know this isn't a perfect world, and libertarian utopia is just as bs as communist utopia. I think that if the US auto-makers went down and the UAW went under, all those non-union foreign plants would start thinking all of a sudden that they don't have to pay those decent wages and benefits anymore.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Look for a union struggle to begin in China some day soon.
They may lead us beck into unionization.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. It already is, ironically at a HONDA plant
:-)
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #39
78. Let's hope it happens with the minimum of bloodshed and
misery for the workers and their families.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
22. Unions should be revamped to support workers in this country not themselves
EVERYONE should be a memebr of a union but a Union that has the wrkers; interests at heart.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
25. No.
It's the Trojan Horse.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. No layoffs? only b/c Honda uses long-term temps to fill in; and their lines run faster
so no layoffs is not a good criterion to use;

as some have posted, Honda knows it has to pay the going rate as a way to AVOID unionizing drives; thanks to the unions for that!

but there are SO many other reasons why being organized is superior!

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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Pro-union?
I think not. I've seen tons of anti-union posts here.

The question is not "Are the workers treated fairly now?" but "If the workers are treated unfairly, do they have a voice?"

As a hypothetical,suppose their management decided unfairly to punish just a single worker with the loss of their job?

Your EXACT quote is that Honda treats them "pretty well". Just once wouldn't it be nice to see workers, even if a union was "necessary" treated very well?




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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
33. Wow, you had me going for a second there.
:puke:
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. I'm as pro union as they come
Unionization happens by vote in a democratic process, and if those workers are happy with what they have then I'm happy for them. If they don't want to vote in a union, that's their choice.

But, anybody in a heavily unionized industry like auto manufacturing that thinks the company is paying them good wages and benefits out of the goodness of their hearts is sadly mistaken. The only reason they are getting those wages and benefits is to keep the plant from going union too. The workers at such plants owe a hearty thanks to the workers that have unionized their shops because if none of them were union, they would all be getting paid jack shit.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #35
45. It's very much like moving into an existing house. The amenities are already in place
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 05:22 AM by SoCalDem
You may want to remodel a bit here and there, but the house is up and ready to occupy.. The unions built "the house" and made it safe to live in, and if non-union people now occupy it, they get to take advantage of the sturdiness of the place, but if they refuse to maintain it, it will eventually fall down in disrepair.

Without a history of good benefits & wages brought into existence BY unions, there would be no reason to pay "decent wages".. Union pay & benefits set the standard..Non-union bosses have spent decades chipping away at it, and are almost "there"..Every union is under intense attack, and in danger of disappearing, since there are way more workers than jobs, and companies have shown us all how easy it is to just uproot the company and move it to where workers will work for less.

People use Costco as a glimmering example of "doing it right", BUT remember, Costco is but ONE sell out/hostile takeover away from undoing it all for the employees.. Everything is for sale, if the price is right.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
67. New hires are getting paid jack shit
Starting wages in the japanese plants is about $14.50 an hour, which is what the Pukes were screaming about during the Domestic auto industry crisis GM should be paying the same to be competitive. However, the benefits packages aren't equal, neither were the pension plans, and the japanese locate in Southern right to work states where there is a huge under-educated workforce. I could go on and on and post dozens of links about actual conditions, worker treatment, firings for no cause etc., but they'd fall on deaf eyes (loo) as they have so many times in the past.


Once anti-union, always anti-Union. And those here on DU who support the Reaganization of the workforce are seeing the results in lost jobs to outsourcing and transplanting of entire industries (ask the clothing workers in the Carolinas or Maytag workers), and hundreds of companies who raced to the bottom to buy cheap goods and increase the bottom line at the expense of the middle class.


Bu people here claim they have the right to choose what they buy. So be it. Junk from China at the expense of the American economy and the middle class. That's as selfish as the Right-wing.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
36. They can do what they want, but my advice is that union is better. n/t
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
38. Know what??? Screw it...
In all of America you name one company-not EVEN an American company-in the most heavily unionized industry in America and ask if they should be unionized? The answer is not just yes but Hell Yes. The shame is that the power and majesty of our own government was used to disembowel legal contracts that existed for many years between the big three and their workers that make what Honda offers seem equitable.

The whole time hypocrites extol the sanctity of a legal contract. They pissed on the fact. If I worked for Honda I would be thrilled too. The top serf always is.

Yet still (in crude terms) they would perform fellatio on a farm animal for a contract that gave them the benefits and (inflation adjusted) wage of a GM workers of the 60's.

Should they be unionized-yes Virginia, because if the management IS Santa it will never become an issue and if he ain't then they'll need it.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #38
52. Problem is
a contract that gave them the benefits and (inflation adjusted) wage of a GM workers of the 60's

Those GM inflation adjusted wages and benefits have been sold out by our own party in lockstep with the pugs in the signing of trade agreements which not only makes busting the unions possible, it makes it extremely beneficial and easy. Once manufacturing has moved to Mexico where the US is forbidden to adjust for low wages and no benefits via tariffs or import restrictions it is too late. What is the last factory opened, by any of the Mediocre 3, to produce vehicles for the US market? What is the last factory opened in the US by the mediocre 3?
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
91. That took a whole 4.7 seconds to find one...
New GM Plant to Build 2011 Chevrolet Volt, Cruze Engines - Car News
GM will source its new 1.4-liter four-cylinder engines from Flint, Michigan.
BY ALISA PRIDDLE
September 2008

Pages: 1 Photos


New GM Plant to Build 2011 Chevrolet Volt, Cruze Engines - Car News
GM will source its new 1.4-liter four-cylinder engines from Flint, Michigan.
General Motors believes the future is in four-cylinder engines, and says it will invest $370 million to build a new engine plant in Flint, Michigan, to build more of them.

GM CEO Rick Wagoner says construction starts now and the plant will be ready to roll in 2010, in time to supply 1.4-liter fours for two key vehicles, the 2011 Chevy Volt and Cruze, with two additional 2012 GM models slated to receive it, as well.

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/08q3/new_gm_plant_...
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #52
100. The Medicocre 3?
Last time I looked, Ford was kicking everyone's ass.

And, they're re-opening a plant in Ohio, adding jobs to a plant in Chicago.

But,I do agree that our own party has sold the middle class out - just not as fast as the other party.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
41. That's one of the most powerful abilities of unions, I would hope.
After all, in the end it is about workers being treated fairly. If the mere threat of a union makes the bosses do the right thing, fantastic.

Mission accomplished.
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:42 AM
Response to Original message
42. Unions aren't always the best deal
I worked for Paccar, the company that builds Peterbuilt and Kenworth trucks, in a non-union plant. We always out-performed the union plants. The union wanted us to organize, but the workers have denied them for 25 yrs! It was the best company I have ever worked for. We were paid the same as union workers, had the same benefits, but did not have to pay dues or put up with the union's BS. I have worked in both good unions and bad. The good ones were very good and the bad ones were very bad. It wasn't any particular union, just the individual locals that were ran poorly. I see unions making a comeback, tho. With the disparity in wages these days, it's gonna take some leverage to make things right again!
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #42
62. And the only reason you had those wages and benefits was because of the union.
You were getting a free ride.


If PACCAR's other plants weren't unionized, I would be willing to bet your wages would have been lower, and the benefits not nearly as good.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
81. Unions are the reason those wages exist.
Once the UAW is killed off by union-busting filth and their consumerist lackeys you'll see all sorts of clawbacks in those industries.
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Sherman A1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
43. "it possible that a autoworker can be treated fairly......."
Yes, of course it is possible.

It is also possible I will win the Powerball lottery this weekend, but is it likely?
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
46. Until they pressured early retirement to their employees in 2004-05
now most of their workers are contract (temp). the base pay is way lower, and people get at-will fired all the time. If they say they're "happy" its because they don't want to lose their job - and it happens to the the only gig in town.

how do I know this? My father in law was one of the early retirees. I know several people who've worked at the plant in Anna on and off over the years. I don't know what they think about unions. They see what happened to GM, and some of 'em buy the bullshit that unions are at fault. People around here working anywhere feel lucky to be working.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #46
73. Bullshit!
I know someone who worked there also. They offered buyouts that were voluntary!!! More than the number needed asked for the buyout. Don't post lies!
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Pithlet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
106. edit
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 02:42 PM by Pithlet
Changed my mind about disclosing info.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
112. You ever worked the line?
Just wondering.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. No, big fucking deal. You assume every line worker works for a piece of shit company......
So you are 100% sure the union workers at GM are happier than the non-union at Honda?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. .......
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #118
120. LOL....I'll take it as I won. Thanks!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #120
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #133
135. Wow! Advice from you? LOL?
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. ...and...I see you won't be taking it.
Well, happy shoveling.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
124. Pressured.
it's true. and if you look at the workforce now, over half are temps.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
132. Wrong!!!
Nobody was pressured to take early retirement. It was offered and many took the offer, my wife was eligible but she decided not to take it as she wants to finish her time and get her pension.

What you fail to mention is if an Honda associate is fired they have the option of going in front of a panel of associates and fighting to get their job back. If they make a good case they get their job back, if not they dont. Also, many companies use temp agencies to fill jobs so dont try to make it out as Honda is the only one that does that.

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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #132
136. Thanks! Your facts will piss many off here!!!
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #136
144. You ignore the temps.
calling your "happy worker" stance a fact doesn't make it one. You can't tell me there aren't fewer associates and more temps working for Honda than there were 4-5 years ago. and you fail to make the case that it hasn't affected the work environment, job security, wages, benefits and hours & overtime availability for the people working there.

I think you're running off of fear that if the UAW moves in, Honda will leave.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #144
147. Not ignoring the temps
but the fact remains that many companies today now use temps, its not just Honda and to say that its just Honda is disingenuous to say the least.

No not running off of the "fear" that if the UAW moves in Honda will leave, the fact remains that the majority of Honda associates do not want the UAW. If they did, then the story would be different. If your a Honda Associate then you have job security, dont screw up and you have a job. Benefits are the same as they have been, health coverage, profit sharing, etc... are still there for ALL Honda associates. Right now there is not much overtime available to work, there is some and my wife is offered it everytime it is there. I dont know where you are coming from when it comes to hours, care to expound on that?



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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #147
149. I didn't say it was just Honda. Temp & contract work is a trend.
Edited on Sat Jul-03-10 06:33 AM by rucky
and it's not a good one. Job security is a thing of the past.

Back when Honda & Toyota started opening plants here, the UAW was strong. They knew the pay and benefits that were standard for auto workers because the UAW helped set and protect that standard. So to answer the OP's question - yes, it is possible for employers to do fine without a union, as long as the unions are strong. An example of that is with Trader Joes and Costco. The UFCW doesn't try to organize there because there is no need to, and they still have influence in the grocery industry.

I'm guessing you're now going to suggest that unions are the reason the US automakers went away. The US auto industry was strong when unions were strong.

You're hearing one thing, I'm hearing another. Passing the Employee Free Choice Act would settle this. Let the employees choose with either a card check or a secret ballot - without influence from the company.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #149
155. No passing the EFCA
would not settle this. Let the associates vote in a secret ballot, why do we need a card check? If they feel that they need union protection they will vote the union in. Again as I have said, we have not received any anti union materials here at the house but we have received pro union materials in the past.

You guessed wrong btw, the reason the US automakers are in the situation they are in is because they produced what some perceived as subpar products. Not saying that is true, but that is what many felt. Personally my wife and I own a Dodge and a Chrysler and a Honda motorcycle.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #155
157. The EFCA allows for a secret ballot or a card check.
Card checks are helpful in finding out which companies are pressuring employees in private, but really it's what workers feel more comfortable doing in their environment.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. Card checks
are just one more way for union's to pressure workers. How about we let it stay as secret ballot, if they want the Union they will vote for the union. If not they wont, simple really.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #132
139. The longer they waited, the worse the offer got.
Things used to be good, and they still are for associates. But do you know what % of the new hires are temps? All of them start that way, and they don't have the recourse you describe. I have no idea how many become associates from that.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #139
156. Where are you getting your info from?
The offer did not change, those eligible for it either took it or not. Things are still good there and hopefully my wife will retire in 5 years with a full pension.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
47. There is a war on. Unions and the American worker are being crushed.
Normally it wouldn't matter to me, but with the circumstances currently in the US and dropping wages, fewer pensions, high cost healthcare, it does matter.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
48. Same Ohio Honda plant that was using prison labor to build their cars?
Union Labor And Prison Labor

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/kastor/private/prison-lab...

Under federal law, Wackenhut was supposed to consult with
local businesses and unions before allowing LTI to set up shop. But
the Texas AFL-CIO was never consulted, according to its president,
Joe Gunn. Gunn too sports a huge Stetson and has a penchant for
string ties held together with a silver clasp in the shape of
Texas. But Gunn is no mirror image of Warden Comstock.

Wackenhut violated the law by not consulting with labor, he
charges, "and we're going to pursue it". He calls this kind of
prison labor "absolute indentured slavery. (Wackenhut) puts people
to work under conditions that we criticize China for."

Wackenhut denies any violation of the law, saying it followed
guidelines established by the Texas Employment Commission (TEC),
the state agency regulating such matters. But the TEC's guidelines
follow a rather crabbed interpretation of federal law. The TEC
claims Wackenhut needed to consult with unions only in the county
where the plant was set up. Since there are no electronic unions in
largely rural Caldwell County where Lockhart is located, Wackenhut
had no one with whom to consult.

The Texas AFL-CIO begs to differ. The TEC should have required
Wackenhut to consult with the AFL-CIO office in Austin in
neighboring Travis County, where 150 jobs were lost, says Gunn.

The experience of the Texas AFL-CIO and the laid-off Austin
workers explains why the trade union movement has been among the
most active opponents of private prisons and prison labor in
general. In a few cases, unions have successfully fought prison
industries. United Auto Workers (UAW) union members were shocked
when they learned that Weastec Corporation in Ohio hired prisoners
to assemble Honda parts. The company paid the state $2.05 an hour
for inmate labor. From that, the prisoners got 35 cents an hour.


UAW Region 2 Director Warren Davis says the deal threatened
union jobs even more than cheap parts imported under NAFTA. "No
smaller employer could compete for that contract with Honda", says
Davis.

Crying foul,the UAW Community Action Program contacted local
legislators, other unions, and the media. State Rep. Rocco Colonna
successfully sponsored bills in the Ohio House of Representatives
banning prison industries from taking over civilian jobs. Although
the legislation never passed the state senate, the pressure forced
Honda to eliminate the prison labor contract in 1992.

"Honda backed off", says Davis, "because they didn't feel the
negative publicity was worth it."
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Tobin S. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
53. I used to work for a company contracted to Honda to haul their freight
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 06:41 AM by Tobin S.
There were about 30 of us there and I started talking to my co-workers about unionizing. They were too afraid for their jobs to try it. The union talk had gone around once before and management had gotten wind of it. The boss told them that if they unionized Honda would not renew their contract with them. I don't know how true that is, but it scared enough of them there that no one would even entertain the thought.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
66. Most auto manufacturers will not contract with unionized transport.
They are too afraid that a strike by a contract carrier will shut down their production lines.

I worked for a Chrysler sub-contractor as a contract carrier, and one shop in our division was trying to unionize. Chrysler told us that they would cancel the contract immediately if they even thought their was an outside chance that they would organize.

The vote to unionize went down to defeat, yet we lost the contract anyway.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
54. The collective barganing power of unions
has been purchased by big business and corrupt foriegn governments. It was sold by our own party whilst french kissing the thugs in the form of 'free trade agreements'. Now it is impossible for the us to obtain parity between 3rd world labor and organized labor here in the US....there is simply no recourse for protecting the benefits negotiated for by unions. So like it or not (and I definitely don't), the benefit of unionizing is a facade now days..
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #54
70. Except there is always power in numbers.
Ask the workers at that Chicago factory who were locked out when their employer moved oveseas a couple of years ago.

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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
56. This is singularly the most anti-Union op I have seen this year
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Wow, not on here much I assume! LOL
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Assumption, something you seem to excel at
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #58
74. Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get runner up
there's a group here where you can practice your talking points before testing them out with thinking people!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. They don't know when to quit....
:hi:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
57. They benefit from the unions even though they don't join them.
If they keep doing this they will hurt themselves and the unionized workers by giving more power to the employers. They should unionize.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. No, the peons who go to work for honda
don't have anything to do with "giving more power to the employers", our party did that when they failed labor while joining the rethugs in unconditional support for trade agreements...that is what has dstroyed the power of unions in the US.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. Our party made people go out and support anti-union companies over unionized ones?
Gosh, I didn't know that.

Don
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #64
99. Our party told management
to feel free to move to a cheaper, less burdensome labor market, and by golly we'll pay you to go...the 'labor party' of old no longer exists
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. Exactly. (nt)
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
72. No. nt
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
75. No.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
80. that's one of the things unions are for. create an environment for workers where non union places
have to offer fair compensation in order to retain workers.

unfortunately, it doesnt often work out that way.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
84. Yes. It's their choice. nt
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
85. Sure
I, however having worked both union and non-union, will never, ever work in a place without a union again.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
87. It is not OK with me.
And... I will not give you my reasons until you give specifics on why you said you think unions have been bad in the past.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
88. There will come a day, believe you me. There will come a day.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #88
107. In some cases I will. Not when the workers are treated good by the company and don't want the union!
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. OK, define "treated good" for us.
Were they allowed to eat, go to the bathroom (there are people who fill in on the line for people who have to pee, that is their job) have breaks, vacation, health benefits, not have their lives intruded upon by management who may or may not like the lifestyle you lead outside of work, don't have to buy safety equipment required to do the job.

How's that?
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. How about defining it as they don't need the union!!! And thus don't vote for the union?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. You seem to be the expert here, educate us, answer my question instead of dodging it
I worked the line in Linden NJ in the early 80's. How about you? Know what it's like inside an auto plant? Even now? Think it's like the office where so many of you anti-Union (word deleted) work? I wear a hearing aid in one ear, probably because of the air guns going off in my ear for three years. Know what dropping a 40 pound tire and wheel on your foot feels like? how about having an air gun shatter? Broken sockets flying and cutting you. But you have to wait for the line boss to get a replacement before you can get off the line. Today, they push a button, poof line stops because somebody broke a nail.


Ever worked the line?
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. No, but if the workers don't vote to unionize you automatically assume they are wrong!
Maybe they would rather take the chances with the company than the union?

Why does that piss you off so much?

Just because you were miserable does not mean they are.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Again, you assume without knowing anything, so sad
Being anti-union is like being anti-Obama, except the Pukes have been doing it for 40 years since I worked in grocery stores as a kid, as a Union member.

I can see that you still think non-Union workers are happy little campers.

Go peddle your talking points elsewhere we're done. You've shown yourself to be quite incapable of understanding what being in a Union means.


Bye.


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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #107
167. I've never been a fan of dependence on noblesse oblige.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
90. They usually get what unions had negotiated with other companies.
It is not as simple as you make it out to be.
Also, if the give up the right to bargain then in the future they could not be treated as well and there would be no recourse.


Corporations have industry groups that tie them together and the individual worker has no power to match it. Only be organizing labor does the working class have any chance at preserving the middle class.

So they may be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. +1. nt
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
96. I would say the workers should have the right to vote if they want a union.
And not just once, but every few years!
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
98. Is there an effort afoot to unionize this plant after all these years?
If so, I support the employees' decision. If the majority wants to unionize, then they should go union. If they vote not to become UAW, I support that also.

I got into the union because the employees of the company I worked for voted for it, including myself. I was fired as a result. But I won that case at the NRLB and was awarded all due backpay.

BTW, I'm an occasional organizer for my local.
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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
103. I worked in that plant for three months.
One of the worst jobs I ever had. You are treated like a machine. You are worked like a machine, and I found the experience completely de-humanizing. Would unionizing make the working environment better? Not sure. But I never want to be treated like that in any workplace ever again. You are an expendable commodity and nothing more. Most of the people that I worked with were alcoholics, and screwing around on each other, probably because they were insane from the work we were doing. 3 "incidents" and you're out, no questions asked. People have lives, and things like traffic accidents happen. You have to be at your work station 5 min before your shift starts, shit like that. If your late, incident. Now I realize that the nature of assembly line manufacturing requires stringent rules, but people are not machines. If they want machines, build robots. There were lots of those there too...
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #103
108. Thanks for your comments.......
Sounds like it sucks. I guess the union would stop the bad firings which would be good.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
104. No.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
105. 'I know this place is very Pro-Union' - Well, the Party is supposedly pro-union, is that OK with you
Since you're asking.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. Yes, no problem with Dems being pro-union. But a huge problem if you are not.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #109
121. Planning to enjoy your weekend?
Then you're pro-union. Cause without unions there would be no weekends.

How about that 40 hour week?

Or the minimum wage?

Paid vacations?

Your lunch break?

Can't appreciate any of these things unless you are pro-union. They are all benefits gained by unions and shared by most workers today, even the non-union ones.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
122. And I have a huge problem if you are anti-union.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #109
148. Have you ever thought about getting a job for Massey coal? or
for a BP offshore oil rig?

How could anybody who works for a damn paycheck be anti-union?
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. +1
Since he was asking.............
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
123. As long as they get to vote on it I'm OK with the workers decision. nt
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
125. If Honda treats them well, why do they oppose collective
bargaining? How is that good treatment? How do you define 'pretty well'? Like, they feed you but you have to let them order for you? They only beat you on Sundays? They make you wealthy?
But of course, the only question that matters is this: do you work in one of those plants? And if not, what do you do and where do you do it?
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #125
130. thank you
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #125
131. My wife
has worked for Honda for almost 25 years now. Yes Honda treats their associates pretty well. I bet you did not know this, when an associate is fired they have the option of going in front of a panel of associates to plead their case and try to get their job back. My wife has sat on several of these panel's and sometimes they find in favor of the associate and they are given their job back.

That is just one example of how they are treated. They also have pretty good benefits, company paid health care with NO weekly paycheck deductions, free uniforms, attendance bonus, profit sharing, 2 weeks a year of "free" vacation, 1 week between Christmas and New Years and July shutdown that is not charged to their vacation balance, yes it is paid.

The UAW has tried several times to get into Honda but each time they have not been able to win the vote. Each time my wife has received UAW information at home but has never received anti uaw propaganda at home. I let my wife make her own decision as far as the union issue goes. I grew up with my dad in the SteelWorkers union and I was a member of both the Teamsters and the Steelworkers union.

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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #131
152. You need to vote for union representation every few years if you want Honda
to continue to give you those nice benefits to keep the union out. That is all Honda is doing here, being nice to the hourly only to keep the union out. So without the union threat, they would shit all over you.

I would still vote yes for the union even when Honda is being nice. Someone has gotta offset the ass kissers vote.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. I will not tell my wife
how to vote as that is her decision. Did you ever consider that maybe the majority of people working there do not want the union in?
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #154
161. Yes I considered it. If Honda didn't think there was any chance at all
the UAW could unionize their auto plants, they would treat their hourly employees a whole lot differently. .

I now work for a non union company and I have seen incompetent suck ups promoted over the well deserving. I see lazy ass kissers getting better raises than hard working non suck up. I could go on and on, but whats the point, you and your wife have a hatred for democracy in the workplace and have your minds made up.

The working people will wake up someday. . .
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. No there is no hatred
What we have is a respect for democracy. Let the workers decide with a secret vote. Why is it that so many are so set against a secret vote?

What you describe happens in both union AND non union companies. What you seem to want to happen is to let a few determine the future for the whole, how is that democracy? Unions do not make a perfect workplace, the PEOPLE make the workplace. I am not anti union, I am not pro union I am neutral as I have worked in both union and non union plants and have seen the good and bad of both. Neither is perfect and to say one is better than the other is disingenuous at best.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #162
163. . , . .
I rest my case
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. Why, because
I dont blindly follow the party line of union's? Funny, I thought one of the things about the progressive party was independent thought.
I think my case is rested because you are too close minded to see any other point of view other than yours.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #164
165. I think you are the one being closed minded. Never once did
you comment on anything I said.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #164
183. With your wife working for Honda for 25 years why would you follow the Union
line blindly?? Huh?


Talking points, something we see around here a lot. Especially when it comes right down to anti-Union phonies.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #183
187. So just because
I don't jump on the union bandwagon I am an anti union phony?

What happened to critical thinking and independent thoughts on a topic, or does that not apply to union discussions.
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jp11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #161
178. You hit it, the threat of unionizing, the fear of it
urges the 'good treatment' of workers. There was a time when workers were treated well to reward their efforts, to keep them and do 'right by them' as it was the decent thing to do but greed has long since changed that, the bottom line, competition from unscrupulous corporations, etc. The question of why should one only make 60 cents on every dollar when you can make 70, is what kills workers benefits and guarantees their poor treatment, it is only a matter of time before that question burns on someone's mind.

Employees are free to reject unions all they want and in time they or their successors, along with the rest of the working people, will pay for that decision.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
137. No, it is not okay.
Solidarity among the working class is vital.

United we stand, blah, blah, blah...
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
142. Sure. I'm in favor of gay mariage and legalizing pot
but I'm fine with it if gay people choose not to get married and I'm also fine with people choosing not to smoke pot.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
146. Nope, it feeds into bullshit like is in this thread. We need a massive unionizing effort
and even professional class people best get onboard and hang together rather than getting run down and defeated one by one.

We need to end "free trade" and increase collective bargaining across every sector yesterday.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #146
151. Amen! It bugs the shit out of me when a person who works for a paycheck
puts down unions. What the hell they have against democracy in the work place? or are they just corporate ass kissers?
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #151
159. Who put down union's?
I know I have not, I just stated facts in this thread.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #151
173. Paycheck cube rats
whose hands are smooth as a baby's ass and complain when they get a splinter working in the garden on the weekend.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-03-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #146
160. How about
you let the people who work there make that decision. Seems to me that they know best what the working conditions are like etc...
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #160
172. You've never worked for the japanese, have you?
And especially in this economy, when jobs are scarce.
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #172
174. My wife
has worked for Honda for 25 years. So no I have not personally but she has.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #174
179. Now I understand your position here.
:eyes:
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. My position is neutral
as I dont work for Honda. She does and as I have said before it is her choice on whether to vote for or against the union. I have worked in union shops in the past as well as non union shops. My dad was a steelworker for 36 years and in the union that whole time. I have seen the good that a union can do as well as the not so good. The decision to vote for or against union representation is a personal choice that each individual needs to make on their own.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #174
184. 'My wife has worked for Honda for 25 years.' - well, that's unbiased lol
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reformedrethug Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-06-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #184
186. All I meant by that
is just that, she has worked there for 25 years. I have not, there are those there that DO want the UAW to come in and there are those that do not. One of my wife's concerns is if the UAW is voted in what will change. What will the UAW get them in added benefits/perks but at what cost. What will they lose in the process.

I am not biased one way or the other, as I have stated earlier in this thread I have worked in union shops and non union shops, I grew up in a union household and I have been a member of the United Steelworkers and Teamsters in the past. I have seen the good AND bad of both situations, neither is perfect, both have their positives and negatives. My wife has asked my opinion and I have told her that this is a decision that she has to make not me.
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dana_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #146
182. that's right
that's what could save the working class. I can't see much else to save us now with corporations having the same rights as a person.

I've been in two unions in the past and wish to God that we had a union for white collar workers because we get a lot of shit too.
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Real Gone Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
170. I'll bet the employees of Honda don't care...
What's OK with the members of an Internet political forum. When they see the words "Democratic Underground" on their check, they will start caring.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
171. As long as Honda doesn't impede directly or indirectly the workers desire
to discuss unionization I don't find that a problem.

It should he up to the workers if they wish to unionize or not...
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Zoroastor Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
185. It's okay...
...the American people simply will not believe what things were like, or will be like again, without unions. Maybe the only way to make them understand is to let the pendulem swing back the other way for a while. Make them fight for their rights again so that they appreciate things they now take for granted that were hard fought union victories. People put their jobs and even their lives on the line for things like 8 hour work days and safety regulations. So let them put their full faith back into the company again. Let's see what it gets them.
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