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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:09 AM
Original message
Question: Is claiming to be "anti-capitalist" while posting on a PC produced by a corporation
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:10 AM by Clintonista2
using slave labour, hypocritical?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. Capitalism is when the private people own the means of production
Its far more about how capital and labor are organized in a workplace than what one's consumer patterns are.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. So who owns the means of production in the production of your computer?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I wasn't involved in the production of my computer
So I don't know. It came locally, so very easily could of been employee owned.

But Im involved in the production of my work, and the computer is not used capitalistically whatsoever.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. "I wasn't involved in the production"
Gee, you don't sound very concerned about the workers who were exploited in the creation of it.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. And you don't sound very familiar with what capitalism actually is
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:25 AM by Oregone
Sorry....you are trying to define capitalism by a business's consumer patterns, rather than by how they organize labor and capital. Its pure silliness.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. You're complacent in the capitalist production of your property
Because you own property produced by an exploited workforce. Marx himself viewed such complacency as immoral.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Well now...
"Marx himself viewed such complacency as immoral"

I'm not one for moral judgments, especially by dead men like Marx and Jesus

Id say complacency is recognizing a problem, accepting it, and calling everyone who doesn't directly practice the system "hypocrites" to make yourself feel better.

To each their own.
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okie Donating Member (158 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
96. Marx was not at all interested in the 'morality'...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:18 PM by okie
...of simply living within the capitalist economy. His work was funded by Friedrich Engels, who was a factory owner!

Maybe that's hypocrisy, but the fact remains that we live in a capitalist economy. You can't step outside of that even if you were using a computer you built yourself (from what parts? With what tools? Where do you get your electricity?).
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. What if you're posting on a refurbished PC that you bought used?
...in a house with mostly second hand/reclaimed furniture, because you want to minimize your support of that inevitable slave labor, as much as possible?

:shrug:
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Your money may not directly be going to the corporation, but you're still benefiting from technology
which was produced by capitalism
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:17 AM
Original message
you mean the technology originally hatched in the public sector...
...that "capitalism" later benefited from?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
93. What's your point?
Are you arguing that if you use a computer you are OBLIGATED to support capitalism?

Some of us see computer activism as using the machine's tools to bring it down.

And we'd have no chance of getting any messages into wide circulation WITHOUT computers.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
98. Using technology created by capitalism doesn't obligate a person to support capitalism
Any more than using guns liberated from a fascist army obligates you to fight FOR fascism, rather than against it.

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ohheckyeah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
111. so, what do you think you are using?
Smoke signals?
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ThomThom Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
123. so I have to give up my pencil, paper, pens, and paints
just a little over the top
I think capitalism probably is the best way to deliver goods and services, I just think regulation is necessary to keeping it from being unfair and exploitative.
What other ways can one be on line with out a computer, it is kind of a monopoly isn't it. With Microsoft controlling most of the market with their products.
I guess you want progressive to go back to the cave since we can't get news in a timely manor without capitalism's stuff. Silly very silly.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Your purchase helped someone buy a new one.
Still, that's a noble lifestyle. :)
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. uh, no. I bought it from a repair place.
n/t
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. And where do you think that money will go?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:29 AM by Clintonista2
Hint: the repair place isn't going to buy its new computers and parts from a different repair place.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. You are getting absurdly ridiculous
The only thing an anti-capitalist has control over is their own labor practices. If they do not practice capitalism, I would venture to say they are fairly not being a hypocrite.

You are attempting to call people hypocrites, even if they don't practice capitalism, if somehow the wealth they generate trickles into a capitalistic system. Who lives in a bubble? Wealth trickles everywhere these days in a global economy. Almost ANY position in that context is hypocritical. According to your standard, you cannot ever safely criticize anything, because some way or another you are, through a long chain, indirectly contributing to a problem.

Just say it..."Everyone should shut the fuck up about everything"
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
26. Exactly. The apologists hate it that some people actually minimize
their economic participation in a system of "commidify everything" that they justly criticize.

Since the apologists are generally part of the problem -- "Buy new stuff! Buy new stuff!" -- it makes 'em crazy that other people are consciously less so...
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
79. all money goes to Wall Street
So what? By your logic, no one could ever criticize Wall Street because sooner or later the money they are spending winds up in the hands of the few.

Yes, that is the problem. Everything we do is controlled by the corporations for their profiteering. How do you get from there to "therefore we should not criticize corporations?" Bizarre logic.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. What did they use the money on?
New parts? New computer? Money in the system is still money in the system. My real point is that we live in a capitalist economy and all the money we earn and all the money we spend is part of that system. But still, you are making a lifestyle committment towards altering that system in a better direction, and that's good. I just hate when people think they have somehow escaped the system, or worse (in my mind) when they think that everything they do is somehow not part of the whole system, so the system is all bad and they are all good. Not saying you--I like the choices you describe. Just saying in general.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Is the repair place incorporated? n/t
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. I am
my own slave!
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. No more so than complaining about oil consumption while your PC runs on electricity
or complaining about how many dogs Michael Vick drowned while eating a bacon cheeseburger...

To be fair, perfect consistency isn't really necessary to fight for changes would make the world better. I'm opposed Bush's tax cut policies because they were bad for the economy, but I spent the money.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
11. Does the person know or not know that bit of information about their PC?
And did they buy it knowing that? Hey I have a better idea, I build whiteboxes that last forever. Support my local economy, buy customized PCs from me and know you are helping out the poor.
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. I post on a used computer that --
was I got free from a friend. I've never actually bought a computer in the 25+ yeasr I have been using them. :D
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
15. I make my slaves post for me n/t
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. What's your point? Just to start an argument? nt
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. The point is to expose the hypocrisy and ignorance of some people. n/t
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Do please expose the 'hypocrisy' of capitalists driving on socialist road systems
:popcorn:
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. Please see this post if you wish to know MY view on what our economic model ought to look like
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I'm not so narrow minded as to only support "pure" economic models.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Interesting, but I prefer the response below it
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. Oh, you mean fairy, paper capitalism
We live in the real world with real people though.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. You're right, we do live in the real world. Which is why your economic vision will never become
reality.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Why would the investor class want to cede ownership to the laborers?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:48 AM by Oregone
Of course it will never come to fruition, with anything short of a revolution.

That doesn't make the concept "wrong".

That doesn't make capitalism "right".

This is a "might is right" argument essentially.

In the real world, the elite will fight off any attempt to separate them from their right to profit infinitely, and will buy enough of the government that is needed, such that they can deregulate and make more money, more easily. Thats the ultimate reality that Adam Smith's paper utopia created.

But I have an idea. Lets ridicule everyone who doesn't conform to this destructive system in the meantime! That changes, well, eh, I don't know...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
94. It would be one thing for you to say that you favor your particular economic model
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:08 PM by Ken Burch
It's legitimate to say that.

It's NOT legitimate to tell other people they have no right to work for what THEY believe in, which is the whole point of this thread.

You could compare using corporate-built computers to work against capitalism to, say, liberating guns from the forces of a military junta to use in an armed struggle AGAINST that junta. In either case, the salient fact is this: the fact that a weapon may have been created by and for the forces of evil does NOT mean that you can't take the weapon and use it to struggle AGAINST evil.

Antifascist partisan brigades in Europe often fought the Reich with liberated guns, to use a real-life example.
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BakedAtAMileHigh Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. and you have failed at exposing anything
other than the ignorance of your question.
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. Well good for you!
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:33 AM by asdjrocky
See, we have to live in the world that we're in. I would love a different system of government than this corporate owned bs, but I can't wave a wand so I fight in the world I'm in and work and hope for real change.

Thanks God we have Chuckles like you here to remind us of our hypocrisy and ignorance.

By the way, I only buy used, and I buy locally.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Original message
Yeah, I feel the same way about Gulf Oil Gush protesters
:sarcasm:

Wow, how constructive.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
88. Well since this is a corporatist system
a few economists have even called it a command economy, here
'
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Econ_Articles/Command_...

http://hf-implode.com/viewnews/2009-06-02_EerieParallel...

I think we have to start looking for actual definitions of what we are dealing with.

Oh and CAPITALISM, as defined by Adam Smith, Ricardo and the rest of the gang, it is not.

As to hypocrisy... I know who builds my crap... and that is ALL my crap... that should be the issue at discussion by the way. As well as to WHY that is the case... free clue... FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS, that again are NOT free trade, per those who set the theoretical basis of the system.

So no, you don't prove a thing. That said, capitalism is a new religion. I recommend you head down to the bookstore and buy yourself a copy of the holy of holies and READ IT.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. No, its not fairy paper capitalism
Its late-stage real world capitalism.

Like I give a fuck about the distinction, really. One you can't accomplish, and one is inevitable.

All apologies aside
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
97. It's not hypocritical to use your computer to work for socialism.
When anti-apartheid activists(most of whom were leftists) in South Africa used radio to issue communiques in a revolutionary struggle, they were using a medium popularized and spread by corporations that traded with the white minority regime. Would you call them hypocrites for doing that?

the 19th Century Marxists and anarchists used printing presses that were originally built for and by capitalists, often under horrible conditions. By you, was THAT hypocrisy?

Even when they used pencil and paper to write manifestos and passed them hand-to-hand, those were made in privately-owned factories and pulp mills, for the most part. If they took them to other locations, they probably rode on capitalist-built transportation systems(trains or streetcars). Were THEY hypocrites?

If you took your argument here to its logical conclusion, Clintonista, you'd end up arguing that it is hypocritical for leftists to communicate through any other means than standing in the street shouting out their messages at the tops of their lungs, without microphones. And they'd have to be naked, since most clothing companies are owned by capitalists.

Why are you so obsessed with shouting down people to your left? It's not as if we're doing anything to harm you, for God's sake.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'm cleansed of the system, man

'cept when my amp needs electric power.
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BakedAtAMileHigh Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. you certainly seem to be misrepresenting anti-corporate thought
You are either missing the point or mis-stating the issue intentionally. I won't guess which is true.

The problem is actually embedded into part of your rather circular logic; as Maggie Thatcher so elegantly put it in the last century: TINA ("there is no alternative").

Are you really so ignorant of anti-corporate thought that you believe activists are happy they must use computers created by corporations who abuse factory labor? Do you believe they think its funny that people in some communities have no energy alternatives, clothing alternatives, or even a decent representation of divergent economic perspectives and theories? Do you really think activists find it awesome that some farmers have no choice but to grow GM crops?

I find the myopic ignorance and arrogance of your post astonishing: it shows a stunning lack of context and understanding of exactly how monolithic and hegemonic corporate life has become: there literally is no real alternative presently available.

Of course, the ignorant, knee-jerk response to this is to chide activists for failing to create these alternatives themselves but this is again nothing but shortsightness: these issues are based in economics, "regulation" and intense political pressure created through the flood of corporate money through Washington DC. Take a look at the Oil industry's massive finding of climate change denial groups or Big Pharma's control of regulation for an introduction to this type of secret control.

So no, it isn't "hypocritical" for activists to use these instruments; the only thing your post shows is that you do not truly understand the concept of hypocrisy.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. +1
:applause:

Welcome to DU! (Belated. Can't believe I haven't seen your posts til now)
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. Are you really so ignorant of anti-corporate thought that you believe activists are happy they must
"Are you really so ignorant of anti-corporate thought that you believe activists are happy they must use computers created by corporations who abuse factory labor?"

Have you read any of the posts here? They're justifying it or brushing it aside as "irrelevent"
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
74. So you admit that the very premise of your question is flawed. Interesting. NT.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
99. It is irrelevant.
All we're doing in using computers is using a method that works. The source of the method doesn't matter, nor does it oblige us to be loyal to that source.

Why are you so obsessed with silencing the anti-corporate? It's not as if what we stands for could possibly do you any harm.
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BakedAtAMileHigh Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
29. just like people who lived in the South and helped slaves escape were "hypocrites", I guess
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:35 AM by BakedAtAMileHigh
Your question really, really sucks. Read some history.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #29
37. Let me know when you go to china to help the factory slaves who produced your computer escape
n/t
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. My machine is built from E-waste parts
my conscience is clean. The labor was my own.




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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
31. I wardrive on my bicycle which powers my BSD laptop which was made in "communist China".
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
36. I don't see the inherent contradiction, frankly-- and I'm a socialist....
Corporations play multiple roles in any society, or something like them, whatever we call them. Corporations, or Peoples' Manufacturing Collectives, whatever. Stuff needs to be manufactured, whether it's computers that folks can purchase ready to use at Best Buy, or components we can buy and assemble ourselves. No one is going to assemble a modern motherboard in their garage!

Manufacture is a skill and equipment intensive enterprise. Groups of people working together to achieve production goals are both necessary and desirable. There is no inherent problem with that.

The problem arises when social rules and norms become skewed in favor of corporations and begin to operate against the best interests of the people who comprise the corporation and its customers. Unregulated capitalism tends to go there because it is ultimately selfish, but that's another topic, I think. But there isn't any inherent contradiction in working on a corporate produced machine to further socialist objectives. None at all. Especially if one is cognizant of the social organization that produces the illusion of contradiction.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
38. I only buy my coffee at anarchist collective corporations...nt
Sid
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. Hahaha!
+1
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
41. Not at all. my puter was made in Communist China along with my iphone.
So there!
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NoGOPZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
43. No more so than claiming to be against government programs
while using a browser based on Mosaic technology, whose funding came from the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I would agree. Only supporting "pure" economic systems = hypocritical and narrow minded
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
46. i don't know anyone who is anti-capitalist
I know lots of folks who are for regulating corporations so they aren't predatory in practice and nationalizing other types that are necessary for life and can be run more efficiently when not focused on making profits.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Im anti-capitalist
Now you know of one.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Hi there!
So what exactly do you mean by your definition of anti-capitalist? Do you believe in no private companies, everything shared sort of system? I am not being snarky AT ALL, I really am curious as to your views :)
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. No, private enterprise definitely has value, and can result in much innovation and positive growth
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 12:18 PM by Oregone
Essentially, I'm in favor of a hybrid system consisting of government services (like insurance), government-owned corporations (crown corporations like BC Hydro for example), and employee-owned private enterprise (which makes up the vast majority of industry).

Why are my private enterprises not capitalistic (nor are they entirely socialistic)? Because they do not allow the continued separation of labor and capital; the employees eventually become the owners and are able to profit from their very labor (which provides quite an incentive). But my model also allows private investors to have finite ROI from an initial investment too. It would be a system that tries to strike a balance between awarding both capital and labor (rather than just capital perpetually at the expense of labor).

This type of private enterprise operates by allowing a private investment (either start up capital or public offerings to generate capital), but uses profits to purchase back a portion of those shares yearly on a set schedule. So, lets say someone invests in a business...they then have 30 years to collect dividends while the company slowly buys their stock back from them (then they need to get off the gravy train and find a new investment to keep getting rich). Those stocks that are bought back are then redistributed to workers (if the initial investor is a also an employee, he gets a share of them too). As workers accumulate ownership, they have a right to the profits their labor generates, and when they retire, they have 30 years or so of the company repurchasing the ownership they earned (lets call that a pension).

This system straddles the fence between known economic system, allowing both an unplanned economy while minimizing exploitation. The longer a business operates, the more emancipated the workers become, who will be able to ensure a business does not operate against their short or long term interests. While not all employees are saavy in business (nor investors who have managers), thats what well paid executives are for. In this version though, that executive would become directly responsible to the workers and have to operate in their interests. And since everyone wants to retire, this would also minimize smash and grab practices.

With that said, this will still cause perpetual economic growth, and eventually kill all mankind along the way. It may just do it less painfully. Its not a panacea to our overall environmental crisis, but rather simply addresses problems with the separation of labor and capital. If you want to actually fix the world, a whole other approach is required.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
91. I very much like those ideas
Thank you for sharing them with me. I wonder if we will ever see a world like that?
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #48
104. I am
Many here are.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #46
106. And now you know two
nfm
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #106
119. Is your view like Oregone's?
If so then I am right there with you. I always considered that socialist. I find all the terminology confusing sometimes.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. Yes I am a hypocrite...
and you are so much a better person than I am for pointing that out to me. I have a question for you. Are you pro-slavery? Because I promise you if you have lived in America for any number of years you have used products made by people working at slave wages in horrible conditions. So does that make you pro-slavery or a hypocrite? Or just someone who has an inherent need to feel superior?

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. +1
Great question: "does that make you pro-slavery or a hypocrite"

Seems like hypocrite is the better choice.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. I live in Canada. n/t
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Canadian?
Why not a Stephen Harper avatar instead of Secretary of State Clinton? :shrug:
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Yeah, they don't sell products there made by slaves
:rofl:

Hope you sleep tight enjoying your socialistic insurance and socialistic electricity tonight.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. And what the fuck does that have to do with anything
What you don't use Chinese products in Canada? Who built the computer you are typing on? And "I live in Canada" isn't an answer to my questions. Are you pro-slavery or a hypocrite? Or just someone who needs to feel superior?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Flaherty personally purifies every imported crate with a prayer to remove exploitation stank
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 12:37 PM by Oregone
Its a big bonus of having people in charge who talk with God
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Was my smarmy reply to your "if you've lived in America all your life" comment
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 12:55 PM by Clintonista2
Actually I built my computer. All of the parts were made in Canada. Some of us actually take our beliefs seriously walldude, we don't just pay lip service to them. And for other folk who wish to NOT support the slave labour that produces your products, great website to use: http://www.canadianmade.com/
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Well, oh my, aren't you a purist?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 01:08 PM by Oregone
Every little component and chip in your computer is Canadian made, eh? Why don't you show us a high-resolution picture of your motherboard?

We wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite now, would we? Come on now. Purity tests are fun.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I never said every component and chip in my computer is Canadian made
In fact, barely any are made in Canada. Most are made in the USA, including the motherboard and power supply.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. For fuck's sake.
On one had you are calling people hypocrites because they indirectly infuse money into a capitalistic system once its out of their hands (even if they don't directly practice capitalism)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

On the other, you are claiming you "take your beliefs seriously", while trying to reinforce your moral high-ground. But the reality is that you are either buying parts made from slave labor, either directly or through a middle-man. Sounds pure.

This just reinforces "Everyone is a hypocrite so everyone needs to shut the fuck up about everything".

How constructive

:shrug:
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Your deliberately misrepresenting what I said
The parts I buy are both sold and made in the USA. No slave labour in the production of them. The computer you buy is likely build in a slave factory in some third world country. You are a hypocrite, I'm not.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Down to the chip level, made in the USA?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:08 PM by Oregone
Riiiiight. You aren't any more pure than anyone else. Open up your computer and have a lookie around


BTW, if a communist revolutionary ever points a gun at you, make sure that you let the hypocrite know what capitalistic country its made in.


This whole distraction is a big joke and really has nothing to do with discussing the organization of capital and labor, and the advocacy or practice of any one system. Its just tangential nonsense.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
95. I just got it...Clintonista is a former Trotskyite turned neoconservative
They always use that rhetoric about "purism". It's a dead giveaway.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #95
109. HEY! Watch that "Trotskyite" stuff.................
I believe we prefer "Trokskyist". It's more pure! :)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. Yeah.
and it's the People's Front of Judea...not the Judean People's front...splitters!
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. I thought I was the People's Front of Jedea
:)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. No, that's the Popular people's Front...splitters!
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:18 PM by Ken Burch
n/t.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #58
87. I happen to build my own systems as well...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 03:16 PM by walldude
But I had that debate with another person in the past and was informed that I still support slave labor because I didn't build all the components from scratch. You know, he was mad because I didn't have a clean room in my house to assemble the CPU and motherboard :rofl: And you are still avoiding, so you never bought anything that was made by slave wage earners? I highly doubt it, and if you managed to get this far in life without it then congratulations. But you might want to look at some of the parts on your video card, your motherboard and your CPU, and check that none of them say Made in China or Made in Taiwan. Plus are you going to fault someone for not knowing how to build a PC?

And if anyone is being smarmy it's you with your OP. No one wants to hear how much better you think you are than everyone else. I can't imagine why you thought you were going to get "support" on this issue. You would have been better off coming in and informing people of which companies don't use 3rd world labor to build their machines instead of just coming in with that smug self superior attitude like your shit doesn't stink. Instead of helping with the problem as you see it all you did was piss off a bunch of people. Not very useful.

On edit: Oh and Canada is in North America, in case you hadn't noticed.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
56. It is like Lenin said:

"The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #56
110. HA! My first thought EXACTLY!
And if Lenin could find a use for capitalists, who am I to argue.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
62. I see it less as hypocrisy... as hypocrisy is chosen rather than forced.
I imagine it's doing the best we can with the tools our culture both provides us with/forces on us.

I would hazard that if one lives in the U.S., one is forced by a pragmatic necessity to either conform to the social mores to one degree or another, or starve-- both physically and mentally.

Therefore, I see it less as hypocrisy... as hypocrisy is chosen rather than forced.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
63. Let's see, could we please have a list of the things we need to do to remain pure?
Maybe in the DU rules we can have a list of what it would take for us to please all the "Purites."


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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
85. beyond that
Who says that "being pure" achieves any political goals? Beyond that, what does that have to do with the opinions people express? The OP suggests that those who are not pure, and so therefore are hypocrites if they express certain opinions should not be taken seriously.
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county worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I really feel that the OPs that challenge us to be "pure" are very much like the
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 03:04 PM by county worker
tea-party rantings only they are about different ideas. The mechanics are the same. We think the tea-party folks are bat shit crazy.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
64. yes, but they won't get it.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
65. Should we use smoke signals? Tom-toms? Secret handshakes?
The American revolutionaries used guns manufactured in Britain. So did the Irish.

The Northern troops wore uniforms made from slave produced cotton during the civil war.

Just to name a few contradictions in goals vs necessity.

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. I think they would be happiest if you didn't communicate or advocate at all
We wouldn't want any capitalist indirectly profiting from your movement now, would we?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Very well put.
I think the unspoken message is STFU.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. It's kinda like saying that playing the "Internationale" on a capitalist piano is hypocrisy.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:23 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #75
120. And compromises your position on animal rights as well, given what they used to make the keys out of
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 05:35 PM by Ken Burch
n/t.
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
69. Yes, we should be using stone tablets and then flinging them out the back window to
"publish". :sarcasm:
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
71. The reality: anyone can claim anything on an anomymous public forum.
I take that into consideration before starting leading polls essentially accusing memers of our community of hypocrisy. Why do you get all wound up about claims you can't verify?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
72. Can Socialist build computers?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
73. Another question. Is claiming to be an environmentalist while breathing polluted air hypocrisy?
That's not a rhetorical question. Can you give me an answer?
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
76. Who is claiming to be "anti-capitalism"?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:25 PM by Marr
Well-regulated capitalist systems work very well. In conjunction with social democracy, it's probably the best system yet found-- if we're going by real world examples and not fantasy stories.

I don't seen many-- if any-- people here railing against regulated capitalism. They're against unregulated capitalism, and rightly so.

I don't know whether you're being intentionally obtuse here or not.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. I am
We exist. We are amongst you
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. That's fine.
What do you want to replace it with?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. Depends on the context
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:43 PM by Oregone
In the context of continuing over-development and exploitation of the earth, Id prefer to end the separation of capital and labor by promoting employee owned private enterprise (mandating private investors must sell back shares over a schedule to be redistributed to the laborers, and employees do the same upon retirement). This ends infinite inheritable ROI on seed money and the exploitation of the working class.

In the context of not polluting until mankind is extinct, I advocate a loincloth, spear, and a solar powered hut.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
103. I am
I am opposed to capitalism.

There is no one thing to "replace" it with, any more than there is any one thing to "replace" murder with.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
105. Really?

Show me 'well regulated capitalism' existing over any extended period of time. The bastards accept a little punishment when it is absolutely expedient and soon as things get quite they're back at it again, only more so, every time.

You might be surprised how many people are getting past the delusion of 'well regulated capitalism'. We have but one choice, Capitalism or survival.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #76
114. As am I.................
BTW, unregulated capitalism IS capitalism. Capitalism is what the PROPONENTS of capitalism SAY it is when they are in position to set policies. Today's proponents of capitalism say it's the unregulated variety. Ergo, what we have today is what capitalism IS.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #114
121. I don't think it's so black and white, personally.
Yes, unregulated capitalism is incredibly destructive. Many things are destructive forces when untended, but beneficial when well-managed. Water can be devastating flood or a boon to the community, depending on how it's managed. Some of the social democracies in Europe have, in my opinion, tempered and tamed capitalist systems into things that fuel innovation and productivity without running roughshod over the population.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
77. of course not
If no one could ever criticize corporations unless one was completely free from any association with corporations, no one could ever criticize corporations.

Slavery was thoroughly interwoven with the US economy at one time. Some people boycotted various things - cotton and sugar, mainly, and that served the purpose of raising people's awareness about slavery. And certainly the argument was used against the Abolitionists that we were all dependent upon slavery, so therefore those speaking against it were hypocrites.

The Abolitionists in the 1850's rejected this argument then, and we should reject it now.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
80. They build the tools that will put them under.
so no.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
82. Unless you know of a brand of computer made only by socialists, then no.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
84. Was shooting a Nazi with a slave labor made Luger hypocritical for a member of
the French Resistance during the occupation of France during WWII?
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
101. Quantum physics and moral relativity or Meta-ethical relativism,
The OP is drifting into the sands of absurdity, but I have to share the same atoms on the planet
thus I am guilty of using the same planet.

I like your analogy


More on moral relativity;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
89. no n/t
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Cal Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
90. No
It's an economic system, not a personal lifestyle choice.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. A big problem around these parts

A lot of these folks can't tell the one from the other. They wear their Che T shirts and call themselves 'socialists' but are just a shade to the left of Ron Paul.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
102. yes. all critics of capitalism should live in handmade mud huts & gather berries.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:32 PM by Hannah Bell
any more red herrings you'd like to introduce?
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #102
113. you know, by gathering berries you're really just attacking the American worker
and putting locally-owned grocers out of business. :P
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #102
116. Good one. "red herring" I LIKE that
You do that on purpose Hannah? :)
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
107. No. The point is not personal purity. The point is social change. n/t
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
108. Stupid question.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
112. Was Karl Marx a hypocrite for using the printing press?
Of course, not.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
122. Are you wearing clothes made by capitalist "slave labor"?

The answer to your question is a big NO!
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