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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:26 AM
Original message
Ancient Fossils Show Arctic Now Near Climate Tipping Point

http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jun2010/2010-06-29-01.h...


Any reading of this and any look at the political situation here in America --

and increasing pressures of elitist corporatism here and around the world --

suggests a new urgency for confronting the fascism which has created this exploitation

and destruction of nature --

Capitalism is suicidal -- and it's taking us all along with it --



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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nothing wrong with capitalism
It's deregulation that's killing us.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Really? NOTHING wrong with capitalism? At all? nt
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Not anything excessively more faulty than any other economic model
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. It's a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" System . . .
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 09:51 PM by defendandprotect
intended to move the wealth and natural resources of nations from the many

to the few --

Capitalism is based on exploitation, not only of nature and animal-life --

but of other human beings --

It's a suicidal concept -- as we can see from the pollution and overall destruction

of our planet!
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Exactly. And capitalism has NOTHING to do with deregulation
:rofl:
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not in the pure sense. But a pure capitalist system is impossible
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 AM by Clintonista2
nor is it desirable. There's nothing wrong with the basic foundation of capitalism -- the private ownership of property. So long as the rights and safety of workers and consumers, as well as the environment, are protected. By the way, am I to assume you're posting from a library computer?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thats incompatible
That being, the private ownership of the means of production and appropriate, static regulations.

Capitalism is a mechanism that distributes wealth created in production to the few owners, while emphasizing capital over labor. It will always act to create disparity, and in doing so, an elite class who amass wealth and power. As time becomes arbitrarily close to infinity, this elite investor class will have the resources to lobby the government to tear down the wall of regulation in the name of more profits (which are put above safety and security).

Its capitalism's very structure that creates the conditions for deregulation and corporatism.

While you may cry and express nostalgia for paper capitalism, that does nothing for us in the real world who are subjected to the real world effects of capitalism, cycle after bloody cycle.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Which is why I specifically pointed out that there's nothing wrong with regulated capitalism
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 AM by Clintonista2
In which the government ensures the rights of workers, consumers, and the environment. Unlike many here, I'm not so narrow minded that I demand a "pure" economic model. I believe social services ought to be provided to the least among us, including a single payer healthcare system. But again, there's nothing wrong with the foundation of capitalism -- the private ownership of property. Most nations consider this a fundamental human right.


I also notice you ignored the question in my last post. Is it because it confirms the fact that you're a hypocrite?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Even on that point, I disagree
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 AM by Oregone
Firstly, yes, there is something wrong with a system structured in such a way that it creates the conditions for its own failure. Regulated or not, its a matter of time.

Secondly, I think there is something inherently wrong with disproportionally rewarding capital over labor, and making the right to profit off another man's labor and inheritable right. This situation creates perpetual, infinite ROI for those families who own capital, and perpetual bondage for those who do not (who are not allowed to a portion of the profits generated by their very labor). Though, I understand, its a great deal for the investor class


"I also notice you ignored my question in my last post."

Oh, you mean your irrelevant personal attack? Because it was simply off-topic and pointless. Owning a computer and using it to work has nothing to do with my support of the system of Capitalism. Now, if I owned a computer, employed someone to work on it at a meager wage, and collected all the profits, then yes, I would clearly be practicing capitalism, but thats not the case. My computer belongs to an employee-owned enterprise, which capitalism fears.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Not off topic or pointless
If you're going to claim to be anti-capitalist, anti "rewarding capital over labor, and making the right to profit off another man's labor and inheritable right," then owning property produced under such conditions is incredibly hypocritical. You're like those teabaggers on medicare who protest against government spending.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. You are grasping at straws with your personal attack
This machine is part of an employee-owned business, in which the employees have all the right to profit generated by their labor (for better or worse). The employees own the means of production here, and there is little else more anti-capitalistic. If you don't understand that, you may be out of your element in this discussion.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Tell me, what brand is your "work" PC?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:07 AM by Clintonista2
Just for my own personal knowledge. I need to know if you're a mac or a PC :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. "Let's see how anti-capitalist you really are"
You do understand that by not practicing capitalism in the workplace, thats pretty "anti-capitalist"? In my workplace, labor has merged back with capital here.

Sorry that you cannot understand this. Its somewhat cute, but getting stale.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. And YOU don't understand that capitalism led to your ability to post on DU. n/t
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Well, considering the Butterfly Effect, without it, there may of been no reason to gripe online..
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:25 AM by Oregone
about corrupt politicians and their corrupt, pro-capitalist policies
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. The kind of capitalism we now practice in America is killing us.
And soon the biosphere.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I would agree. n/t
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. This is, or should be the point.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 09:44 AM by Enthusiast
Profit at any expense is the problem. The insane GOP is ready to privatize anything and everything right now, no hesitation. Being reasonable we can see where this unrestricted greed would have a few little drawbacks. They have bought into a kind of caricature of Reaganomics so thoroughly that they will not question the consequences for one moment.

Even when faced with environmental catastrophes like the gulf oil gusher they will not consider a safe/clean alternative. Look into the eyes of Michele Backmann, her madness is no different than any other brand of historical zealotry. But we simply can't allow these crazies back into power.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. True, we need to reregulate capitalism . ..
but what you are looking at now is the pure thing --

it's merely organized crime!

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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Is the OIL INDUSTRY's drilling there causing this?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 AM by eowyn_of_rohan
tin foil hat in place. They do whatever they can to get at the vast oil reserves offshore Alaska ... might they have drilled into methane pockets up there too? Look at how fast this area has deteriorated and warmed lately....surprisingly fast to scientists .

(typo edit)
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. Rec for visibility. nt
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. Which mass economic system doesn't destroy nature?
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
19. Cool! At least I'll be around to see us perish by our own hands. It's
almost like being around to see the dinosaurs meet their just-as-untimely demise. All historic and shit.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #19
29. You should join us in E/E
:hide:
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I do lurk over there from time to time. Perhaps I should venture over
and join in. :hi:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Consider this your formal invitation
We could use some level heads over there. :P
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. What is this E/E you speak of?
:freak:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. The environment/energy forum?
:D
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
20. Capitalism and Facism are not the same thing...
Corporatism and Facism are the same thing.

In fact, real free market capitalism is as dead as the great god Pan. What we practice is a blend of Consumerism and a Corporate Demand Economy.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. "Corporatism and Facism are the same thing."
No they aren't
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Well, according to Mussolini they are or were...
and I admit all forms of Facism are not the same.

Spain retained a mild form of facist government until Franco died in 1975. Attributes of facism have erupted elsewhere, even here. Certainly, that binding of Corporatations and government are an attribute of Facism.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Source those quotes then
You may find out they aren't real (or rather, have never been found in the original texts cited, or anywhere else)

The two systems have similarities and differences. Any difference basically ensures they are not the same though.

Ask yourself:

1) What is the primary concern of fascism?

2) What is the primary concern of corporatism?

Those questions have two very contradictory answers
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. What is it that you think those "answers" are . . . .??
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stuntcat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
25. disaster capitalism.
kickety :kick:

Certain People will keep on getting richer & richer, no matter WHAT.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. K&R
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
30. Near?
We're well past that point.

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DCBob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
33. Arctic sea ice extent is now lower than the record worst levels in 2007..
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