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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:21 AM
Original message
First They Demonized The Term Socialism
Even though many necessary services and functions of government, like safe roads, emergency response, and schools, are indeed socialistic mechanisms, the right took to turning a good political concept into a bad word.

Then they did the same thing with the term Liberal. The right was successful in turning even the working man against his own advocacy by turning liberal into a bad word by tying it with big-spending and taxation even though the right was always the one to do the big spending and the left was always left with the massive problems left by the right to clean up. And even though Liberals rarely taxed the working man harder, and instead taxed the wealthy, the right was still successful in demonizing the word.

I find it now tragic that so-called progressives are demonizing another ideology that has been a cornerstone of liberalism and the Democratic party. And that is sensibility and practicality. Democrats have always used information to achieve policy, applying solid research into legislation to find out what approaches will actually work. We are the party that honors science and technology to be used to benefit everyone, not just the wealthy. And we've consistently governed with sensibility, practicality and compromise. I find it ironic that some who are pushing the idea that compromise, sensibility and concession are bad are the first ones that are saying we should be using these approaches with Americas enemies in order to establish peace over war. But to use this same approach with the other party or even factions within our own party in order to pass some of the most progressive legislation in a generation, well, that's simply not acceptable.

And to be one of those who supports this political approach, an approach that is tried and true and has been shown to work, especially with a party that is as large and diverse as the Democratic party, well, we just get to be made fun of and called names like "Chuckles". To those fellow liberals who choose to try to demonize us, I say this. You can demonize us if you want. But you can never control us, nor can you claim the banner of being the only "true" liberals. You have a different approach. That does not make it the only approach. It doesn't make you right. And you can never tell us to be quiet. Not when you try to demonize good Democrats.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Liberalism once meant minimum government & maximum individual freedom but you assert socialism is an
"ideology that has been a cornerstone of liberalism ".

Perhaps you mean that some have demonized the meaning of "liberalism"?
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. They are internet warriors pounding out negative screeds
on internet boards and imagining themselves "sticking it to the man" day in and day out. Forming enemies lists and imagining that there silly little wars actually accomplish something other than filling up their boring lives.Ignore them, they thrive on negative attention.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Heh, "Chuckles"
Things are going swell. No problems, here. Nothing to bitch about, eh?

It won't be long now and those damned complainers will be proven wrong and everybody will get along fine. Any minute now it will all just simply correct and all the problems will disappear.

Got to have faith, eh?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
37. passive aggresive strawman

Criticizing the reflexive trivial daily bashing of the President is to be understood as not allowing any difference of opinion.

It should go without saying that principled honest policy discussions and discussions on strategy are always going to part of the Democratic Party and the vibrant debate within it. Unfortunately it cannot go without saying because when folks like the OP make a point about the vicious bitter attack on the President that includes all of his policies, all of his appointments and his motivation for public service ("Obama is bought and sold by the corporations") then there is always the disingenious acting as a suprised cuckold with tear filled eyes "oh so nothing is wrong", "we have to follow a party line", and the ever predictable reference to political supporters mirroring blind religious faith.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. You nailed it. It has become a crutch for those who
can't defend their position and can't bring themselves to admit that Obama does something liberal once in a while.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #45
64. Chad gets it.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
73. I love it!!
""...Obama does something liberal once in awhile.""

Which means he does things conservative most of the time? <<<Note the ? mark!!!!
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #73
86. +1 bullseye
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. There ya go again
Acting like Obama is the Messiah.

He is a cog in the machine. Again: Obama is a cog in the machine.

You don't get to be president by promising to stop the machine.

The owners would not allow it.

So, excuse me if I friggin stand up and criticize the president. You want a debate, debate. You want to prove me wrong, go ahead, but don't hide behind all the gobbley-gook of partisan, machined politics.

Not directed at you so much, gc, but if it hit a nerve, tell us about it.

Frankly, by keeping the heat on the president, we are telling everyone in DC they all need to shape up and be real statesmen and women, for the people.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. You proved my point better than my reply did
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #62
78. Wasn't hard to do?
Making heads or tails of your post was a challenge. Did I get it right?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #78
121. Now I understand why you were unable to grasp the OP.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #121
129. Gotcha
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:15 PM by BeFree
You can't debate so you just sling stuff.

I was uncertain about you. Now I know where you are coming from: Nowhere.



I never did respond to the OP, I will now.

The gist of it was that we progressives are now against practicality and sensibility.

And are now viewed as an enemy of such things.

And then that we should continue to seek, from the bushcoviks a compromise.
And concede as the moderates are dying to do.

But then the OP delves into war against us and denies wanting to compromise with us.

In effect the OPer tries to demonize good Democrats who see through the republican bullshit and who believe that the only way we win is to utterly crush the pubbies.

In short, the OP is standing up for the validity of the pubbies and fighting against the members of the Dem party that are trying to lead the way.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #129
167. Yep everyone who disagrees with you is "standing up for the validity of the pubbies"


and there is no difference between principled debate and disagreement and reflexive daily bashing of the President.

Dying for legislation that has no chance of passing a super super majority in the Senate is so much more rewarding than actually getting real legislation passed.

Zero of perfect is better than 90% of the good.

Thread after thread bashing (insert your perjorative favorite here some derivative of either a sports fan or religious follower is normally used)

So the OP responds to the insults and he is the one demonizing.


All the same passive aggressive strawman that you started out with.


Now I stand with progressive Senators like Sanders, Franken, and the rest on passing HCR and Financial Reform and so on while you stand with the FDL blowhards that no one outside of the Blogosphere even knows exist.

Forget about persuading country you can't even persuade the Democratic Party or even the Progressive wing of the party.

Only we the pure of ideology "see through the Republican bullshit and who believe that the only way we win to utterly crush the pubbies".

You do count don't you. You do realize that in the Senate the 20 smallest states have less population than the State of California and have 40 votes to CA's 2. That in order to obtain a filibuster majority that we would have to win 75% of the population. You do read the news and are aware that "Mr. I do everything on Principle" Senator Feingold is running neck and neck in the liberal state of Wisconsin?

Wow that was some Gotcha.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #167
192. Obama
He came out swinging today didn't he?

He got $20 B pledged from BP. And that was no compromise with the pubs.

He passed a stimulus package against every pubbie.

He got HCIR without a single pubbie.

So why compromise?

Hardly anyone is saying we should compromise, except for the OPer.

So, the question is.... is the country turned around yet?

And maybe, just maybe, if we aren't gonna get any pub votes, then why even talk about compromise with the crooks and liars?

We are a long way from where we need to be, but we can do it. Really, you might think of joining us instead of fighting against us. We get our way, the country will be better off.

You do agree with that, right? That if the far left or progressives or whatever you call us get our way, we will be in far better shape, right?

A simple yes, or no, to that simple question, would be fine.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
90. You cannot support any President then
The way you just stated it, you will never support anyone who can manage to get elected President.

You just get to feel superior by being above "the machine." Which really does nothing for the country.

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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. of course
It is not appropriate to "support" politicians the way you are describing it - ever.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #96
117. Then quit expecting them to do anything
that you want done. Why shouldn't you run as well? You're above running for office and above winning the office. Yet think you should be the guiding force behind anyone who does.

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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #117
126. no idea
No idea what you are trying to say here.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #117
284. I expect them to do their jobs which is to look out for the PEOPLE rather than the
corporations because they are a public servant. NOT royalty which seems to be the model you prefer when dealing with politicians. You play the sycophant. I want the politicians to be moved in the right direction and I will not applaud them for doing the wrong thing.

They are not entitled to my support if they don't do the right things. Period end of story.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
81. not true
Some think that the better strategy is to move left rather than to the right, and to fight rather than compromise. That needs to be included in your "principled honest policy discussions and discussions on strategy." But you want to simultaneously smear all people advocating that with this post, while at the same time claiming that others are doing that to you. Few if any are making "vicious bitter attacks on the President." But claiming they are is a way for you to get your digs in on people, which means you are doing the same thing you claim to be victimized by.

It has been the critics who have been mocked and ridiculed, accused of "wanting Palin" and relentlessly attacked. They fight back, and you want us all to believe that it is then those pushing party loyalty who are the persecuted ones.

Your remark - "the reflexive trivial daily bashing of the President" - is itself hostile and is a call for not allowing opinions that you are uncomfortable with, yet you turn that around and suggest that it is you being unfairly treated.

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. truth is whatever they say it is, their rules
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #81
93. What "fight?" The election is over and you have to deal with
what you have; just naysaying everything is not a "fight." Politics is compromise, not "fights."

While you can campaign for more leftward candidates, they have to win to even be at the table to compromise.

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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. I don't think you you know what politics means
politics:

n.

1. (used with a sing. verb)
a. The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs.
b. Political science.
2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb)
a. The activities or affairs engaged in by a government, politician, or political party: "All politics is local" (Thomas P. O'Neill, Jr.). "Politics have appealed to me since I was at Oxford because they are exciting morning, noon, and night" (Jeffrey Archer).
b. The methods or tactics involved in managing a state or government: The politics of the former regime were rejected by the new government leadership. If the politics of the conservative government now borders on the repressive, what can be expected when the economy falters?
3. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Political life: studied law with a view to going into politics; felt that politics was a worthwhile career.
4. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Intrigue or maneuvering within a political unit or group in order to gain control or power: Partisan politics is often an obstruction to good government. Office politics are often debilitating and counterproductive.
5. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Political attitudes and positions: His politics on that issue is his own business. Your politics are clearly more liberal than mine.
6. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The often internally conflicting interrelationships among people in a society.

http://www.answers.com/topic/politics

Some would have us believe it is compromise first, maybe even only?

Rightwads know how to win elections but they can't govern. Politics is also governing. When D governing resembles R, we got a problem.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #93
107. good thing people didn't follow your program in the past
When the Abolitionists, Suffragettes, Labor organizers and Civil Rights advocates had potentially friendly politicians in office, they increased pressure, they did not fall silent and quit agitating until the next elections. Conservative people in the Whig party did use all of the arguments against the Abolitionists that you are using - people should support the Whigs, people should work to elect anti-slavery candidates, people should be willing to compromise with the slave power, because "that is how politics work," people should stop fighting, people should stop "nay saying" everything, criticism of the Whigs would only help the opposition, etc.

Interesting that you say the only way to be "at the table" is to win an election, and them the job is to start "compromising." As we know, corporations have been "at the table" on every decision by the administration, and they were not elected. The corporations think that politics is a fight. Of course if we "compromise" - cave in to them - then there is no fight. Then politics becomes all about "compromise" - surrender. All of the people representing the base were excluded from being "at the table."

What you are advocating - insisting upon - is dead certain to result in conservative wins in and out of the party. I don't think there can even be any controversy about that, as there is an avalanche of evidence supporting that both from recent events and from history. Do you want the party to move to the right (that is OK if you do, although why not openly say that?) or do you sincerely believe that your approach will somehow result in progressive or left wing political gains?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #107
116. There was a Civil War
That was a breakdown. Why? Because the South insisted on "fighting" rather than compromising.

They weren't "spineless." They had "guts." They did not back off of their "principles" and so we had a war.

If your way were followed, we'd have civil wars to settle these questions.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #116
137. LOL
Clever attempt to turn this around backward.

I was assuming that you would be sympathetic to the Abolitionist cause, not the slave owners. Yes, the slave owners were willing to fight to preserve slavery. The question was should the opponents of slavery fight back, or should they have compromised?

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #137
147. You just put Lincoln on the same side as the confederacy.
The abolitionists were fighting to end slavery right away. Lincoln sought compromise. He thought slavery would die out over time if the expansion of it was stopped. The emancipation proclamation was also a compromise measure that didn't free any slaves right away, but later freed many as the union armies advanced into the South. In fact, Lincoln's political idol was Henry Clay, known as "The Great Compromiser."

So should we disregard and insult Lincoln's efforts simply because he was a compromiser and not an abolitionist? Personally, I believe the efforts of both groups were critical in ending slavery. Likewise, I can appreciate the efforts Obama makes that may not be everything I would like, as well as efforts to push him left. It's not an either/or position.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #147
157. William tries to make past history black and white
There were compromises, the Compromise of 1820 was one. Just like the declarations regarding FDR and LBJ, things took a long time, campaigns, debates, bills, and now that it's past history it is conflated into taking place overnight and without compromise. Shallow view of history.

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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #157
173. depends
If we look at everything from the point of view of those in power, then yes we can applaud compromises.

This is a silly argument - that because politicians compromise, that therefore we should advocate compromise. Let's say we wanted an end to child labor. We then advocate "an end to child labor." Why would we advocate anything else? The fact that this may not be immediately or perfectly achieved is no excuse for advocating delay or imperfection. Would we advocate "go slowly and don't quite end it completely, because we are being practical and realistic and love compromise?"
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #173
187. +1000
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #187
202. tombstones.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #202
207. Why? Any idea?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #207
210. he wishes (nt)
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #202
267. how did you know that before it happened?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #267
281. the same way that we know how Joe Kishore posts here.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #281
282. who is "we"?
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:36 PM by Hannah Bell
you're saying there's a special group of posters with inside information about who's going to get booted & who posts here?

like a spy thing? like cia operatives?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #282
283. . . .
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 04:29 PM by grantcart
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #282
287. EXECUTE MISSION OMEGA
I REPEAT - EXECUTE MISSION OMEGA!
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #173
247. It's one thing to advocate and another to get legislation through
The end of child labor probably was not done in one fell swoop either.

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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #147
172. yes, it is a good example
Exactly. Perfect example. Lincoln was a politician. We are not, nor were the Abolitionists. Politicians must compromise. That does not mean that we need to, nor should we.

Henry Clay's failure, by the way, with the compromise of 1850 led to the tumultuous decade and the Civil War. Daniel Webster's reputation was destroyed by his support for the compromise. So obviously, compromise is not always a good thing.

The Emancipation Proclamation was not a compromise. It was everything he could do within the limits of his authority. The important part of the Proclamation was not which slaves were declared to be free, it was that all slaves reaching Union lines would be accepted.

So you then would have been opposed to the Abolitionists? Am I reading you right? "The abolitionists were fighting to end slavery right away. Lincoln sought compromise." You say that compromise is the better path.

How did I put "Lincoln on the same side as the confederacy?"

By what stretch of the imagination do you think I am saying that we "should disregard and insult Lincoln's efforts?" What politicians must do, and what we should do are two completely different things. If we do not take strong positions, what are we giving the politicians to use in their compromises?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #172
176. You wrote:
"The question was should the opponents of slavery fight back, or should they have compromised?"

You present the false choice that those who compromise are not fighting back. Therefore by your viewpoint, Lincoln was not fighting back. I disagree that accepting compromise represents a failure to fight back.

To answer your question, you insult and disregard the efforts of Obama and Lincoln by suggesting that compromise equates to not fighting back.

Once again in your endless attempt to make this an "us v them" issue among liberals, you try to paint me into a corner by suggesting that I'm in an opposition camp who disregards the efforts of abolitionists, and presumably their modern day equivalents, to which you feel you belong. I believe my words were very clear on that point so I'll paste what I already wrote:

"Personally, I believe the efforts of both groups were critical in ending slavery. Likewise, I can appreciate the efforts Obama makes that may not be everything I would like, as well as efforts to push him left."

If you want to make a historical comparison, I would likely have said at the time that I'm disappointed the emancipation proclamation didn't do anything right away, but disagree with those who call Lincoln a worthless pro-slavery sell-out (as you apparently would have done).

You also underestimate just how calculated a compromise it was. It promised to protect slavery in Southern states that agreed to rejoin the union by a certain date. By the standard I see you use with Obama, that cynical disregard for ending slavery made it worthless.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #176
243. Sadly, granite can't speak
:shrug:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #137
156. The Republicans of today are not willing to fight to prevent financial reform
They won't bring us to war over it. They are willing to compromise, if any bill gets passed now that they have 41 votes, it means they "caved" and "compromised" too.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #116
253. And today, the same thing is happening, the Republicans
refuse to compromise. Just like the South. So by your reasoning, Lincoln should have compromised with yesterday's version of the Republicans. Instead he chose to fight. Some people think he was wrong, do you?
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #107
225. Your definition of "compromise" as far as the corporations
go is EXACTLY the definition that the Republicans use. That's NOT a coincidence. It's just further proof that the Rs are a WHOLLY owned subsidiary of the corporations. And my problem is that TOO many of the Dems are using that same definition of "compromise".
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
227. As one of the leftists here, I've NEVER told any
of the centrists to STFU. But I have gotten that attitude FROM the centrists. I've been told I shouldn't advocate for REAL leftist policies because that's not how the political system works or that it's idealistic dreaming. It's actually been insinuated that I wouldn't feel comfortable advocating far left positions on here. All these things are the equivalence of STFU and let the "experienced" professional politicians handle things.

As I've said before, I think that I AM supporting Obama's centrist agenda by pointing out that he's NOT a socialist and that there ARE people who want REAL left positions enacted. I'll volunteer to be his "red scare" if it'll get even REAL centrist positions enacted. Because when the compromise is between the center, right, and the FAR right the compromise will ALWAYS be right wing.
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Number23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
213. + like 420 Billion
Forming enemies lists and imagining that there silly little wars actually accomplish something other than filling up their boring lives.

You win the Truth of the Day award.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #213
268. i think you've confused who has the enemies list.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Lee Atwater Legacy
Two different thoughts/matters at play here. First is the manipulation of the media and the language that was a deliberate strategy of the rushpublicans for the past 40 years. It was classic McLuann...control the message and control the agenda. Through constant repetition of catch phrases and inundation of the media, the memes of "Tax and Spend Librul" and "Socialist" became used to demonize and allow the GOOP to target their opponents effectively. We saw this strategy really take off in the 90s with the rise of hate radio and Faux noise that would both echo the same talking points and reinforce old ones 24/7...creating the parallel universe that is so evident in the political divides of the present time. We get creatures like Mooselini who spews word salads to big profit and acclaim...no substance, just feel good words.

Next is the problem created by those who claimed to be "socialist". Most notable are those who coopted the term for their own uses that are far different than the definition many of us prefer it to be. Most notable were the Nazis who used the term "socialist" as a cover for a military/industrial dictatorship. Yes the government and economy was centralized and controlled...but in ways that are still being used (especially by wingnut "anal-ists" such as Jonas "Pantload" Goldberg) to batter modern day socialists. There's also the "socialism" that was used by the Russians and Soviets...that for many of us who grew up in the 50s through the 80s meant a repressive gulag system and constant shortages. With "socialists" like these its hard to redefine it in different terms. As long as people have memories of these ugly "socialist" examples it will be a toxic term in our own political system.
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Agreed and thank you. You've described forest rather than trees.

There really is much to learn from history...
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Didn't Hegel's followers morph into Left and Right groups recognized today as Marxism and Fascism?
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Always A Matter Of Degrees...
Yes, you are right about Hegel. A good example are some of today's chickenhawks who were radical "liberals" in the 60s who somehow became "disenchated" with the left and somehow drifted all the way to the opposite side. An example is David Horowitz...who traded his "Marxism" for "Fascism" over the past two decades. Unfortunately many times its the extremes that end up being the working definition and then is manipulated to further distort.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Perhaps groups can go so far left & right they merge together to subjugate the masses. n/t
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. That has happened very recently
with FDL and Jane Hamsher working with Grover Norquist and enlisting the aid of teabaggers on Fox.

It worked so well for her that her sight now has many teabagging bloggers on it.

It definitely can and has happened.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. They still are trying to demonize the term "socialism" as they did it with the HCR debate
Your historical perspective is very appreciated.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R to counter the unrecs
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. unrec
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. It certainly is odd that terms that have been respected and considered good
for hundreds, if not thousands of years, are now being demonized and attacked.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. What a strange statement
What's odd is how some people on this board want to control the dialog and abscond with the definitions of certain words.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. "people on this board want to control the dialog"
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:55 AM by NJmaverick
that's an interesting idea. Maybe we should have a pizza party and discuss it over a few slices. I would be interested to hear who you feel is controlling the board and what dialog is being controlled.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Or we could set up an IRC chat to discuss it. eom
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. guilt
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I wouldn't presume to know the motives of the poster to whom my reply was made.
:shrug:

Now that you mention it, though, 'guilt' might be the best response to this thread.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
149. you
are
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #149
186. AFAIK, people are allowed to seek other venues for discussion. At least, I saw nothing in the rules
against it. So, a private IRC chat or other political forums all look perfectly legal within the rules to me. As always, though, you are entitled to your own opinion on it.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #186
194. I Remember Correctly?
Seek.

Trash.

Enjoy.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #194
200. So, now I have no idea what we're talking about & I have no desire to continue a silly subthread
or to continue kicking a thread of little value, IMO. Feel free to continue should you so desire.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #200
205. Just when we were getting somewhere
Enjoy the bitter herbs.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
178. !!!
:spray:
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
218. We're not the ones who claimed ownership of "progressive" and "liberal".
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
128.  They aren't our buzz words. They are Reaganesque.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Why make compromise and concession the goal from the beginning?
Our Democrats have been giving away the farm before the bidding even starts by preemptively removing any items deemed in advance as too divisive or controversial, regardless of whether a large portion of voters are for it or not. The will of the governed means nothing.

How did healthcare work out? Lots of compromise and concession there - to parties who did not cast even a single vote for it! What did the Democrats gain by being "practical" and "sensible" with the intractable? We got a bill that supporters may cheer as being the "most progressive legislation in a generation" (ignoring the fact that its the ONLY healthcare (oops!) insurance reform in a generation) whereas I see the opportunity of a generation to affect real change and write real reform being thrown down the toilet.

Imagine the Wright Brothers' mother saying "Be sensible, one wing at a time, dears." A one winged plane doesn't fly. I think a lot of the sensible legislation we are getting is a whole airport full of one-winged planes - not able to get us where we should be going.



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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dude, the part of the Party you support is in charge!
Cry us a river.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Why are people who are getting everything they want so damn angry all the time?
It's one of life's great mysteries, at least around here, where the faction that is getting everything it wants, and now has total control of this site, is still in a perpetual tantrum inspired by the thought that there might still be some people somewhere who disagree with them.
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #17
34. Not just some....MOST.
I had a poll completely disappear,
but the results had shown that NOT
ONE duER had self-identified as
a "New Dem".

Progressives are in the majority on this site.

No surprise to me, as that's why I COME HERE!

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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
150. The Bushies acted the same way.
Perhaps it's not a coincidence.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. That's a fine observation,
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:38 PM by QC
and I don't think it's coincidental either. There is definitely a shared mindset at work.
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dave29 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
251. We're Democrats, it's not about "getting" what "we" want, it's about
creating progress that will help the most people in a realistic way. This crazy notion that the Presidents supporters are getting what they want while others are not is ludicrous. We are just a little more patient, and maybe a tad more grounded in reality, I suppose.

We all want the same thing!! It's about how we get there. Jebus H Hockeypucks.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
18. The people who truly demonized the words "pragmatic" and "sensible"
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 AM by QC
are the ones who seek to make them synonyms for "utterly lacking in conviction."
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
49. People who are "utterly lacking in convictions"
generally don't get into politics as they care little for it. At least that has been my experience. People lacking in strong views on political topics tend to have little interest in the muddy and nasty world of politics.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
164. Buwahhahwahhhh
I guess amoral is too kind, perhaps "pragmatic" just means shady with malicious intent.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
217. Are you really that naive? You seriously believe the majority of major politicians have principles?
or strong views on anything? Really? Do you know any? have you ever worked to craft a "message" ? It is about WINNING. Period. And that is where we are. Not long ago it was being discussed here how a politician need NOT keep his promises because what was said in a campaign doesn't count. I am one of those who does believe that it counts but then, I am not "pragmatic" and still believe in ideals.
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Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
19. Your "concession" and "compromise"
sounds more like rolling over for the opposition to me. No thanks, but you enjoy yourself.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Rachel Maddow would disagree with you
She did say President Obama had one of the most legislatively accomplished first years of any President in a generation.

The Stimulus Act, Lilly Ledbetter, Stem Cell research, yes, sensibility, compromise, and concession achieved one of the best accomplished first years in history.

See: http://open.salon.com/blog/je_robertson/2010/01/06/obam...

At the end of Barack Obama's first year in office, there is controversy over the nature and extent of his accomplishments, and even some allies and supporters appear to have forgotten the atmosphere of multidirectional crisis in which Obama took office. What's more, the steady decline in Obama's approval ratings appears to follow very closely a shift in media reporting away from reporting facts and back to the hyper-commentary style of the run-up to the Iraq war, an atmosphere in which conservative political propaganda fares better than the facts of deliberative action.

Pres. Obama was accused early-on of making an unprecedented list of promises, and even by the time of his inauguration, there was speculation about a gap in election-year perceptions and aspirations and the realities of governing. It became popular in the mainstream media to propagate this "controversy", asserting that Obama was "too idealistic" or even "nave" and that somehow the "hard realities" of governing would, in time, make his Republican opponents' case for them. 2009 has largely been a year in which media reporting has moved in the direction of promoting false controversies and enforcing self-fulfilling prophecies for their value as marketing tools.

Many of his detractors, and even some of his wavering supporters, will be surprised to learn that in his first year, Barack Obama has already fulfilled at least 79 campaign promises. This is one of the most accomplished records of any first year in office, and it has come with considerable difficulty in working with and around a Congress fraught with obstructionism and distracted by its own mythology regarding specific points of policy, and in the face of the most uniform and inflexible opposition any president in recent decades has faced.

The 79 promises kept, as fact-checked and reported by PolitiFact.com, the Pulitzer Prize-winning fact-checking service of the St. Petersburg Times, are as follows:


Full list of accomplishments achieved through sensibility at the link.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
94. Then nothing would ever happen
No legislation would ever get passed.

Every Senator would hold out.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
21. please stop telling us on the left how to think and act
we are really sick of it... you got what you wanted already.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. No one is telling you how to act. I'm only making an observation
that there is an attempt to demonize a sound ideological position.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
110. no there is not
There is no attempt being made to "demonize a sound ideological position." The cartoon lampooned an approach to politics - move to the right to go left. If you do not see it as an approach, but rather as a "sound ideological position," that makes it worse, not better, because that tells us that people are not merely being naive when they advocate moving to the right in order to move left, they actually want the party to move to the right and are being deceptive about that.
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
298. "pragmatism" is not an ideological position . . . .
it's a weak excuse for accepting the status quo at every opportunity.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
22. I suppose 'what approaches will actually work' must mean different things to different people.
To me it always meant policy which would be effective ie: make things better for people. Some seem to think it means 'whatever we can get passed' whether it improves things or not.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
athenasatanjesus Donating Member (592 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
28. On Amiannoying.com "was a socialist" is often a reason they are annoying NT.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
31. America's enemies are the one impoverishing this country with their war support
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:10 AM by Catherina
It's the American version of "collaboration horizontale". Absolutely sick stuff.

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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
32. "And you can never tell us to be quiet" rings a bit false
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:17 AM by DirkGently
Sounds like you're the one claiming ownership of liberalism and the Democratic party. The one demanding loyalty and purity. For example, you seem determined to conflate criticism with the term "demonizing" which you repeat over and over. The two are not the same. No matter how much criticism of liberal or Democratic leaders offends you, it IS something that honest liberals and Democrats do. The fact that "Chuckles" would get so far under your skin that you would despair of a CARTOON appearing on this website speaks volumes.

You are right, of course that there is a conflict between a couple of particular points of view as to how to achieve liberal political goals. You and some others seem infuriated by liberals satirizing or critiquing other liberals (or, really Democrats).

I can only assume this is because you value group solidarity more than critical thinking.

But consider: is that itself a liberal value? Are we the ones who pretend to never be wrong? Who never admit our mistakes? Who claim our leaders are infallible? Does that not sound like the "other guys" to you?

I think more than a few people would take the point of view that *failure* to criticize those, including leadership, more or less on one's own "side" of the political spectrum is irresponsible, because all you're left with is the naked, unreasoning partisanship that's wrecked our national discourse for so long. Go red team. Go blue team. Yankees suck. Go Mets. What does that mean, if we're all equal in claiming our "side" never makes a mistake, never fails, needs no improvement?

Solidarity, some might argue, should NEVER mean *unquestioning or uncritical* support of some predetermined group or person, but should remain always with the best ideas and principles. There is an element of intellectual dishonesty, is there not, in pretending, or saying, that inadequate results are adequate, or that adequate results are spectacular?

If we don't speak up when we see things we disagree with, or think are wrong or ineffective or weak or dishonest or overly compromised, how exactly are we supposed to know what we actually stand for? Isn't lockstep, uncritical loyalty something progressives, or liberals, or Democrats have found repellant in the politics we oppose?

If so, what level of criticism do you think liberals should "tolerate?" If Chuckles the Woodchuck goes too far, what criticism is acceptable?

Are "we" part of a group that simply opposes Republicans, or do we stand for a qualitatively different approach to policy and politics that includes honest criticism of "our" own people? Do we simply want to beat Republicans at their own game, with the same approach to message discipline and unquestioning, top-down, party solidarity, or do we stand for a more honest approach?

Do we equate what is "practical" with what is politically expedient, or with what we actually think will WORK in reality?

There is a difference, right?



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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You're projecting your own feelings onto others.
And you are playing semantics with what is being done. The fact is, Democrats who support the President are the majority of the party. More than 80%. The fact that demographic isn't reflected here and that the most vocal and loud are those who do not or who do nothing but criticize and attack the President here does not mean anything. It only means that those who support the President are intimidated to speak their minds for fear of being demonized. And they are.

Even in this thread, because I simply don't agree with your and others approach, I am directly labelled a cheerleader. Instead of holding an honest discussion of which approach is actually accomplishing anything, things devolve into name calling, labels and boxing people in.

I'm certainly willing to apply political and constituent pressure on my elected reps. And in fact I have. I don't disagree with this approach. It has its place and its use. But for people to attack other members of this site because they believe things can be accomplished in other ways, that's not a healthy situation for this site.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. So, because 80% support the President, no criticism is valid?

Do you see a hole in this thinking? Do you think that people here who make honest criticisms of Democratic leaders are somehow the enemy of liberals, or the President or the Democratic Party? Do you think those "80%" are of the opinion that there is nothing to criticize in Mr. Obama's administration, nothing that needs change or improvement?

Do you have possession of a poll no one has seen that says that 80% of Democrats think that everything is being done perfectly?

Aren't you just endorsing the "With us or agin' us," "love or leave it" mentality that liberals and Democrats have opposed for so long?

Where should liberal and Democratic ideas COME from,if no one is supposed to criticize or dissent with whatever happens to be going on at the moment? Where are you getting this sense of outrage that it is somehow unfair for the people who make up the the country and the party to say "We disagree with what you are doing here, and here, and there?"

As far as attacking other members of the site, I agree that's not appropriate, and no one should be "labeled," but I do think you need to consider whether opining that an (excellent) cartoon / woodchuck that expresses the views of many members of this site is a shameful "stain" that should be removed is not itself an attack.

By definition, if it rings true with people here, isn't it a valid contribution? You say others want to "silence" you, but aren't you the one trying to define what is permitted to be expressed or discussed?



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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Never said that at all, and I'm surprised you resort to this strawman argument
People who support the President's approach are not necessarily centrists or cheerleaders. They see the success in what he is doing. And criticism is fine. But turning on a majority of Democrats because they don't agree with your criticisms is actually damaging your own cause. If you want your criticism to be taken seriously, having people join in a thread and bash the majority who agree with the approach you don't like will only make it harder to get a more liberal agenda through. It pushes good Democrats into the dark who would otherwise offer valid points of discussion.

Again, I have no umbrage with the cartoon itself, but I do have a problem when a mob jumps on it as validation that their way is the only way to succeed and anyone else is a cheerleading "Chuckles".
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. berni you are damaging President Obama's cause.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. How so?
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #50
256. Oh Mav! Only you could ask that!
Only you!

What a wacky liberal you are!
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #256
275. He's takin' back the liberal flag, baby! n/t
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #275
276. and it makes me WANNA SHAKE MY ASS WITH JOY!!!
Ass shakin'...money making'... :woohoo:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #276
291. You and me both! n/t
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #46
179. w-w-hat.. huh?
:shrug:
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. You didn't say the cartoon was an embarassing "stain" that should be removed?
I understand you feel attacked, but do you understand that you seem to be going far beyond disagreeing with "Chuckles," and suggested (or, certainly, gave the impression) that the site shouldn't tolerate such things?

And I do think you continue to misuse your "80%" figure in assuming that because many Democrats support Mr. Obama's administration overall, that only some kind of unreasonable fringe element would connect with the critique represented by Mr. Chuckles. There's no basis whatsoever to assume that "80%" of Democrats, or liberals, or anyone, is happy with the continuing existence of Gitmo, or the retention of rendition policies, or the perceived failure to fight for a public option in healthcare (which the majority of AMERICANS supported, by the way).

Further, even if you could reasonably extrapolate that because most Democrats support Mr. Obama's administration, that means that most Democrats feel no disappointment, and adhere to no criticism, which again, I don't think you can, it still seems to me that the point of a discussion forum is to collect and consider a wide variety views, albeit in this case under the banner of liberal / democratic / Democratic Party sympathies.

I respectfully suggest that while your own views should not be dismissed as mindless "cheerleading," when you attack thougtful (or comical) criticism of the administration as disgraceful and destructive, you give the impression of intolerance on your own part.

In the context of a discussion forum, rather than simply stating that ideas like those expressed in the Mr. Chuckles cartoon have been "debunked," or are a "stain" on the site, or don't respresent the views of "80% Democrats," you might argue the merits of the critiques themselves. As you say, we shouldn't be labeling each other here, but the way to avoid being dismissed as close-minded is to refrain from dismissing others' views as being disloyal or destructive in the first place, no?



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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #66
99. No, I said the thread was, because it is.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
111. yes you are
You just did it again.

Those defending power are not being "pushed into the dark."

Clever how you are turning this around backward and inside out when you claim that "their way is the only way to succeed and anyone else is a cheerleading 'Chuckles.'" No one so claimed. Only those using the chuckles talking points were characterized as, um, er... using the chuckles talking points. On the other hand, you and others are doing exactly that - support the President (utter no criticism, advocate no left wing positions) or else you are helping the opposition or have a nefarious agenda and so forth.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
83. oh the irony
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 01:44 PM by William Z. Foster
"To attack other members of this site because they believe things can be accomplished in other ways, that's not a healthy situation for this site."

Right. That is why people responded positively to that cartoon. You are the one who decided that the cartoon was directed at you. I don't believe that you feel persecuted, I don't believe that you fear for the health of the site. I don't think you care about the success of the administration. I think you recognized some of the talking points that you have been using to suppress discussion and attack others, and don't want people thinking about that because of the damage that might do to your talking points. Otherwise, why would you have stepped out into traffic on that busy street and then whined that people were trying to run you over? The fact that you jumped in on that thread invalidates all of your claims.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
101. +1000 Well said. You spoke for me too n/t
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #83
169. Encore!!
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #169
280. Elvis has left the building.
again.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #280
297. ...
:spray:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
299. You are the first one to use the word "cheerleader"
in this thread. "Even in this thread, because I simply don't agree with your and others approach, I am directly labelled a cheerleader. Instead of holding an honest discussion of which approach is actually accomplishing anything, things devolve into name calling, labels and boxing people in" is a false premise.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Excellent post! nt
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. ::::standing applause::::: and I wish I didn't unrec this thread because your post Must be read.
Thank you.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
44. I LOVE you DirkGently!!
:loveya:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
51. +1
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
56. WIN.
:applause:
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unapatriciated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
74. +1
Yes there is a difference.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
102. Great post. Thank you Dirk. +1 n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
40. Great OP bernie! K&R.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. "I think (x) and if you disagree with me it means you're a corporate, compromising, sell-out
and I don't have to correct my factual errors or defend my position at all except to call you names."

Yeah, the routine is overused. It reflects an "us v. them" mentality that isn't very helpful when its directed against other liberals.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. Hmmm... I think corporate, compromising, sell-outs are bad.
You disagree? :shrug:
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #76
106. Sell-outs are bad.
Every politician in American history that ever accomplished anything has had to compromise. Even Paul Wellstone and all liberal heroes. It helps to understand that reality and know the difference between the two.
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #106
112. of course
That is not the issue, nor is it what your chronic complaint is about. Politicians may have to compromise, we do not. It is us whom you are demanding compromise from.

It helps to know the difference between that - us and the people in power. Let the politicians defend their compromises with the right wing, they don't need your, or our, help. Demanding that we all help them - and that is what you are doing - is the problem and the cause of the feuding. Helping apologize for the politicians when they compromise with the corporations and the right wing helps the right wing. It can never help the left.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. OK, I'm just gonna let William respond for me from now on.
Well done, sir. :thumbsup:
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #113
114. thanks
There is a fishing expedition going on, with prodding and probing hoping to get an uproar going about some minor point for the purposes of creating a distraction. They say they want discussion, yet when their questions are answered, when they do get a solid, well-reasoned and courteous response, they won't touch it but instead will keep casting about elsewhere probing for another spot to provoke a feud.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #112
130. Here's my experience on DU.
1) I see an inflammatory article attacking Obama for the latest outrage of the day.
2) I do a little research and find that some of the claims are exaggerations, and illogical leaps that are supported by very little or no evidence.
3) When I point this out I'm accused of being on the opposite side of the issue or "apologizing" for politicians.

In reality, if the article had simply stated what is usually the factual case, "Obama has done a, b, and c, which is good, but he still needs to do x, y, and z to finish the job" then most of the time I would respond with support for the demand to do better. Hyperbole and broad-brushed labeling of Obama only get in the way of discussing issues.

I realize you'll probably never agree with me about this. You see all disagreement with any criticism of Obama as a conservative argument from the "other side." You'll probably never notice or care that I agree with people who use fair, factually-based arguments to push Obama left.

There won't be much reasonable discussion on this board as long as people hold your attitude, which assumes that anyone who disagrees with their attack on Obama must be a conservative apologist.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #112
183. +10000
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #112
215. the compromises are at our expense, and protect their political capital. that is the bottom line.
to critique that is to remain true to one's interests. it's really that simple.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #112
216. This is IT
Exactly. Unfortunately. We owe no allegiance to the Triangulation Faction of the Democratic Party, whether or not it is the majority, although I suspect (and fervently hope) that it is not.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
48. "Sensibility" and "practicality" have long ago been ruined by the corporatists.
You might as well fight to rehabilitate "pro-life" or "pro-family". People eventually see through the ruse.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. What exactly do you mean by that?
First please define how you are using the term "corporatists" and then please explain to me how they have "ruined' the terms "sensibility" and "practicality"
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Simple.
When They Say: Pragmatic
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Rahm Emanuel's campaign was a pragmatic success."

When They Say: Grown-up
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Unlike Dennis Kucinich, Hillary Clinton is a grown-up."

When They Say: Rational
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Harold Ford advocates a rational approach to foreign policy."

When They Say: Practical
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Blanche Lincoln says taxing carbon just isn't practical."

When They Say: Reasonable
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Steny Hoyer wants to adopt reasonable financial reforms."

When They Say: Sensible
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Max Baucus is drafting a sensible healthcare bill."

When They Say: Centrist
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Diane Feinstein's centrist views have not been popular in the more liberal areas of her state."

When They Say: Bipartisan
They Mean: Corporatist
Example: "Joe Lieberman led a bipartisan effort to compromise on the Roberts nomination."

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. I am old enough to remember when "commie" was used
like you are using "Corporatist"
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Wrong again, Bob.
One is a jingoistic attack on liberals.

The other is a defensive deconstruction of pro-corporate newspeak.

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
79. I can't say you have made a compelling argument
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 01:35 PM by NJmaverick
to convince me to change my position.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Yeah I guess you really "cna't"
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 01:29 PM by arcadian
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #80
180. wow, he had a typo. does that make him a lesser person?
:eyes:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #180
235. Among other things, yes.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #180
244. of cores
:shrug:
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #58
77. LOL!
I think that line of reasoning is recycled from the 1850's.

"I can remember when Abolitionist was used the way you are using slave owner!"
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. It is so simple , I love it.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
105. +1 n/t
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
245. so many handy euphemisms for corporatist
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
53. You forgot the sarcasm tag.
:cry:
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. it is just horrible
Those siding with the powerful are so persecuted. Imagine - having their ideas lampooned in a cartoon!!
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Do you mean this one?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Or maybe this one.


Interesting... can you spot the difference?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. I don't know, but I haven't had my coffe yet. Maybe if we had another?
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Heh. Check your first post. My favorite part of the cartoon is missing.
:shrug:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. Ack, ok, I was up late fixing my fixing a friend's computer. Coffee now.
Coffee :hi:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #69
87. Omg, how did I miss that?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 01:56 PM by Mithreal
Just finished my coffee though :)
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William Z. Foster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. it is a tragedy
First they came for the upscale gentrified people who promoted Reaganomics within the Democratic party...

Who will they joke about next? Where will this all lead?
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. +1
:rofl:
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #60
139. I think it was actually this one:
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Woodchucks is scary, dontcha know?
:hi:
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martinojacko Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. Yup. A lot of liberal-hating these days
When the real enemy is the right-wing and wishy-washy centrists who enable them.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Yep
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
295. !
:spray:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
109. No, it's the recent DLC newspeak, according to them, the Left is now the wishy-washy centrists.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:42 PM by Catherina
It's a takeover game to redefine the center so they can move even further to the right.

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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
75. Pretty sure posts starting with "First They X'ed" fall under the Godwin umbrella.
Unless you feel a little disagreement on an anonymous internet board somehow equates with the Holocaust... :shrug:
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
82. Before 1760, were there no safe roads in England, or were all safe roads in England private roads?
Even though many necessary services and functions of government, like safe roads, emergency response, and schools, are indeed socialistic mechanisms, the right took to turning a good political concept into a bad word.


Doesn't the word "socialism" refer to ideas expressed by some or all of the following people?
Comte de Saint-Simon (1760-1825)
Charles Fourier (17721837)
Karl Marx (18181883)

Of course, at the moment when Comte de Saint-Simon was born, he didn't think of and publish his ideas, so I could revise the title of this message to ask about roads in England for some time after 1760.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
84. You think "Chuckles" represents sensibility and practicality? You don't get the cartoon's beef.
Chuckles represents the foolish and impractical masquerading as the wise and practical.
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
85. Only the Capitalists control the liberals...

well, the liberal politicians anyway.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
89. FAIL on so many levels it should be in a museum.
n.t.
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JoseGaspar Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
91. You've spun so hard, you made yourself dizzy.

Will you call forth the "silent majority", next?

It was mostly the sensible, practical and pragmatic who "demonized" Socialism, and a Liberal (Palmer) who put them in jail.

But, do go on...
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
92. Enacting Republican Economic Policy will NEVER be "Practical" or "Pragmatic".....
...unless you're a Republican.

However, it does allow the Party Marketing Team to claim a "WIN" and hold a "Mission Accomplished" parade.

The blueprint is simple and easy to follow:
Eliminate everything that makes the Republicans, Corporate Lobbyists, and BIG MONEY Interests uncomfortable, and pass whatever is left over.

QED: Health Care "Reform",
The current Financial Reform Bill

Which way to the parade?
:party:
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
95. I don't think you have a clue what socialism or liberalism actually means based on your political
leanings.

So spare us your lecture. :eyes:
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JoseGaspar Donating Member (391 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
97. You've spun so hard, you made yourself dizzy.

Will you invoke the "silent majority", next?

It was mostly the sensible, practical, and pragmatic who "demonized" Socialism, and it was a Liberal (Palmer) who put them in jail.

Do go on, though.

I am waiting for your "Cross of Bold" speech:

"You shall not press down upon the brow of the apparatchiks this crown of thorns, you shall not crucify sensible-mankind upon a cross of bold."

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
98. True, why can't Americans compromise between themselves
when they need to compromise with whoever it would take to get the wars over? Isn't that "rolling over for the enemy?" Not "fighting?" The far left and far right converge. They want to fight to the death without ever working anything out. I'd hate to be involved in one of their divorces. Must be all out war every time.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #98
103. The compromises being worked out are being worked out heavily in favor of one side.
Win/win means all involved benefit and benefit in a fairly equitable manner. So far, the compromises I see are heavily weighted towards wealthy corporate interests and the workers and people struggling are getting a crumb here and there.

I have no problem with compromise. I spent a good deal of my working life resolving conflicts and problem solving with families in crisis. It is not a compromise or a solution to continually screw one side in favor of the other.

After 30 years of the beat down of the working and middle classes, we have a real need for some real push back and fight in the war that has been waged on us. I'm really not inclined to compromise with those who'd just as soon we all die and get out of their way.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #103
237. Yep. I wonder where the compromise between
the left, the middle, and the right would come down? I KNOW where the compromise between the center, the right, and the FAR right comes down. We've all seen that compromise. TOO MANY TIMES!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
104. A couple of terms you forgot...
the "sensible center" and the "moderate middle"

}(
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
108. It's the centrists calling themselves liberal who sold out that did the most damage to "liberal".
The apologists who say that lost wars are "necessary".

That say that financing fraudulent bankers are "necessary".

Who say that holding politicians accountable is "bashing".

Who say that making behind the doors deals with corporations is done in good faith.

Who say that public servants "have too much on their plate" when they fail to act.

Who say that "not as bad" is really good.
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