Paul Krugman makes it official. We're in a depression.

[Cyrano]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/28/opinion/28krugman.html?ref=opinion

The above link is to Krugman's column in today's NY Times. He's been right about almost everything for years now, but no one in a position to do anything about it has listened. Now, we are where we are.

His column ends with frightening words: "And who will pay the price ...? The answer is, tens of millions of unemployed workers, many of whom will go jobless for years, and some of whom will never work again."

[aquart]

1. And not an FDR in sight.

[NJmaverick]

19. If you read the article you will have read that President Obama understands the problem

and is trying to resolve it, only to be thwarted by the Republicans and conservative Dems

[izquierdista]

33. Republicans like Geithner?

and Democrats like Larry Summers. He understands the problem, because his financial advisers ARE the problem.

[SammyWinstonJack]

53. +1. nt

[Smashcut]

63. +1

[WillyT]

115. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said...

:applause:

:kick:

:hi:

[spiritual_gunfighter]

122. +1 n/t

[Enthusiast]

126. +1

Come on, let's be realistic. We all know these guys are the champions of deregulation.

[TheWatcher]

64. Giving up on "The Recovery" so soon?

You've been telling us for months we are in a recovery, and that assertions like the ones Krugman makes here are all wet, as well as insulting and mocking those who have questioned said recovery.

Amusing to see the retreat to a different bunker position. :rofl:

[NJmaverick]

68. As Krugman points out, the Republicans blocking needed aid to the states

is forcing state and local governments to cut back on employees and spending, which harms a recovering but delicate economy. Beyond that if the rest of the industrialized world screws up their recovery efforts it will have a negative impact on our economy. Those are the main points of the issue at hand. So I don't think your spin on the issue, is an accurate one, nor do I think it helps us to achieve a greater understanding of the issues.

[TheWatcher]

78. Nice Dodge

I see your skills (or perceived skills) haven't diminished one bit.

Consequently, your relentless spin these past few months that we are in a "Recovery", while insulting and mocking any who have questioned it has achieved even less.

Hence your retreat to this current position.

Again, it's amusing to see you attempt to transform.

You can attempt to reframe things any way you wish.

The Bottom line is there was never any "Recovery" to begin with.

Some of us have a much greater understanding of what's actually going on, despite desperate attempts by individuals like yourself in the past and present to transform and obfuscate the circumstances we find ourselves in into something that has little to do with ANY kind of reality.

[NJmaverick]

81. I noticed you didn't address the issue

[TheWatcher]

83. You didn't address mine either.

There is no Recovery, there never was one, and another Bubble, and Bubble Based Economic Policy is not going to change that.

Printing your way out of a Recession and attempting to manage the perception of what is going on with relentless Propaganda is not going to work, and it is not going to spur forth any real Growth or Job Creation.

Now that the Stock Bubble has Burst, I wonder what fiction you will use now to tell us that we are in a Recovery.

As for your attempt to attach yourself to Krugman's train, that in itself is laughable considering your positions over the past year.

But by all means, keep re-inventing yourself.

What will you be tomorrow, I wonder?

[JDPriestly]

124. The wealthy are in recovery. And the whole economy was headed

into recovery. The refusal of the Republicans and Right-wing of the Democratic Party to continue certain aspects of the stimulus like the unemployment benefits will are expected to end the recovery and cause a double dip. That is commonly known. The people who are talking about the recovery are the first to admit that any attempt to slow the economy such as braking the stimulus will cause a double-dip.

Thank you Republicans. You see, the money that the unemployed and the states receive goes directly back into the economy. Money going into the economy via the unemployed and the state governments stimulates the entire economy. The poor buy from the middle class. Amazing isn't it. The poor actually contribute to the economy. That's a tough concept for Republicans. They can't think further beyond step A than step B. That is why they are called conservatives. They are so busy looking back that they can't see beyond the step B.

[William Z. Foster]

75. that is the pitch, yes

The strategy by the administration is to tell us that their heart is in the right place, that they are trying to do the right thing, but that they are being thwarted by the Republicans (and the media, and the "zealots on both sides" which is code talk for leftists, critics and dissenters.) While this pitch flies here, to some degree although less and less as time goes by, as it is aimed at the base, it is not flying with the general public. The party has failed to persuade the general public about what the right thing even is, let alone convince them that the party is trying to do the right thing. Of course the Republicans, the media and the leftists are handy scapegoats to blame for that, as well. The goal there is to disarm and neutralize critics and activists so that the administration can continue to move to the right, obviously.

How will you feel when the approach you are applauding and defending proves to result in seats being lost by the party? Will you then renew your attacks on the base and blame them?

Do you or do you not want the party to move to the right? Do you or do you not want the party to succeed? You are advocating an approach that is moving the party to the right and causing it to lose support, while claiming to be promoting and defending the party. Do you only support the party so long as it is moving to the right, and so long as the ongoing attack on the left and on the base is happening? Or do you sincerely think that what the administration is doing will be successful and will move the country to the left? If it is the former, than all of the people disagreeing with you are vindicated. In that case, there is a profound political disagreement that is being hidden by the way you are debating issues here. If it is the latter, I would think that you would be willing to grant some respect and courtesy to your opponents and at least consider what they have to say.

As it is, there is growing suspicion that the "you are tearing down the President" and the "what do you want, Palin?" arguments are merely cover for an effort to move the party to the right and implement the Republican agenda under the Democratic party banner, and to deceive and mislead people about that.

[pundaint]

82. If he understands it, then he is choosing to take us down.

I'd just prefer to think he's weak and stupid.

[earth mom]

90. That didn't stop FDR. But you know that. nt

[Zhade]

143. We really need a way to rec individual posts. You nailed the problem in the first post.

NT!

[SpiralHawk]

2. The putrid fruit of Republiconomics

Thanks a pantload for 8 miserable years of BORROW AND SPEND Republicon 'conservativism' that trashed the US Treasury and economy. We will be mopping up for years to come...

[JTFrog]

7. +1

Someone in this thread gets it.

[RedstDem]

9. Wouldn't it be great if it just the last 8 years..

That would be relatively easy to unravel, but the truth is, its been building since Raygun, that was 1981.
and sadly, there's two "democratic" presidents in that mix.

it really sucks.

[HughMoran]

31. Yeah, 'Voodoo economics' has been slowly bringing us down

The thing about it is, it was OK in the short-term (mostly due to luck) and thus many dumbpublicans thought it was a sound policy. Not.

[Confusious]

44. I was thinking the same thing

Voodoo (bullshit) economics:

Hey! I got an idea!
lets put a knife in the wall outlet! OOOOOOWWWWWWW!

Well, that didn't work.. how about this......

lets put a knife in the wall outlet! OOOOOOWWWWWWW!

Well, that didn't work.. how about this.....

lets put a knife in the wall outlet! OOOOOOWWWWWWW!

Well, that didn't work.. how about this.....

lets put a knife in the wall outlet! OOOOOOWWWWWWW!

Well, that didn't work.. how about this.....

Exact frame of mind.

[laughingliberal]

61. ROFL!! Perfect! analogy of 30 years of economic policy. nt

[laughingliberal]

60. Not just luck. Raising payroll taxes hid the damage done by tax cuts for the wealthy for years.

Now that the bill is due...we get to hear about a 'crisis' in SS and talk of raising our benefit age to 73. And with little hope of unemployed people over 50 ever seeing another job.

Reaganomics was always a scam on the American worker and we really need some leaders to step up and call it as such.

[Confusious]

43. Years?...........decades. nt

[HughBeaumont]

137. + 1. I'd like to call it "Borrow and WASTE" . . .

. . . since sometimes "spend" implies there'll be a return. With the GOP Traveling Medicine Show, there's a sucker born every minute.

These idiots have burned through the coffers and really have zilch to show for it. Well, other than a few ruined nations, including ours.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. The "D" word

You can't have an indefinite "recession". After about a year, if things haven't picked back up, it's a depression.

http://economics.about.com/cs/businesscycles/a/depressions.htm


* spent this country into this Depression. Two wars, tax cuts, laissez-faire economics, rollback of regulations, etc.

[DailyGrind51]

4. Yet, people wait in line overnight to purchase i-Phones and tickets to "Eclipse"?

Why the disconnect?

[sendero]

6. Even in a full blown depression..

... more than half the population will see little effect.

[DeschutesRiver]

39. Just read "The Great Depression: A Diary" by Benjamin Roth and what you said is true

Roth was an attorney who kept a diary of his depression experience, and his son has published it recently.

Not only did some people see no effect, there were others that even prospered. There were so many upswings, periods were things looked like they were turning a corner, when actually nothing could be further from the truth. There were mini booms/busts in various areas/industries throughout the depression, and its effects lasted far longer than I'd thought.

Highly recommend this book. It is a bit more of a middle class view of the ebb/flow of our previous GD than other accounts I've read. Dh and I actually read this book very slowly (note: we are typically almost speed readers), and frequently commented to each other that the stuff we were reading could have come straight out of today's headlines, esp. the confusing idea that it was not a straight line doom even, ie there were pockets of people doing fine, there were mini-booms even in real estate, etc.

As I read it, I realized that we were in a GD already.

[newspeak]

46. also during the Great Depression

even though some people were okay-let's see how many real apathetic people we have in this country-day in and day out watch the misery of others. During the depression spousal and child abuse increased dramatically-suicide among the poor and middle classes rose. Oh sure there were some, once millionaires who committed suicide but not like the working class. It's already happening-these are our neighbors, our family, our communities.

[DeschutesRiver]

47. A bit of a side note, but thinking about apathetic people and the GD

In the GD, there were people who were beyond apathetic to the plight of others - they weren't even aware of the misery of others at all. Those sufferings didn't even make it on to their radar screen.

One example that I didn't expect came while I was watching a documentary of the Kennedy family. At one point, there was a black and white home film of the younger boys and a bunch of other family members splashing and funning around in their pool on a sunny afternoon, complete with a couple of maids in uniform delivering drinks to people by the pool. This was during the Great Depression.

While this scene of wealth, privilege and fun was playing, the narrator was reading a quote by one of the Kennedys, who said (paraphrasing as best as I can remember) that basically, they had no idea how bad the Great Depression was, because it didn't effect them or anyone they knew, nor did it change any aspect of their lifestyle. Pretty much had no clue that it was even happening, since life remained the same for them.

Some things never change.

[Citizen Worker]

123. A friend, now 90, grew up in MT on a farm and said that his family

were unaffected by the Great Depression. They grew their own food, raised beef, pigs, chickens, etc., and were 50 miles from the nearest town. That tiny bit of history may be worth a try at replicating.

[DeschutesRiver]

139. Same for my Oklahoma relatives during that time

at least until the Dust Bowl arrived (bit of bad luck there).

But it is a good point. We now live 30 miles one way from the nearest town, have a garden and raise our own beef cattle, and go to town infrequently. I think in today's world it might be way too much dirty and hard work for quite a few people, but I grew up this way so the only factor I struggle with now is my advancing age. But some of my relatives lived this way for decades longer than my age - I even had relatives in Canada who lived a completely self sufficient life on a small piece of land on the end of an island, until they were very advanced in age. Dh happens to be mechanically minded, and can fix anything, so we rarely even see a repair person here.

We left our professional lives and the city behind over a decade ago, and now probably aren't even fit to be neighbors in an in-town situation because imho people still seemed obsessed with their things more than their lives and I find that tiring to be around on a daily basis. Our nearest neighbor is two miles away, and we have grown used to how still and large life is way out here without distractions. But if things worsen, I do know how to keep us warm and watered and fed, and the environment here keeps my soul calm and happy, if a bit physically overworked at times:)

[puebloknot]

146. The conundrum is ...

... that the problem is so great that even if, say, the Kennedy Family actually wanted to help, to sell their goods and give to the poor, and adopt a more scaled-down lifestyle, even their great wealth would be a pittance compared to the needs of the many who were out of jobs and out of hope.

The answer is not to blame those who may, from no *fault* of their own, happen to be in a business that is thriving during a general depression, and may be doing better than those in desperation. Personal charity can only go so far. We need to have leadership that creates jobs for those who need them.

We need a new WPA based on, for one thing, a new energy policy that will put people to work in green energy industries.

I work in an industry that is thriving right now, and though I've had many financial pressures in the past, I'm doing better right now than a lot of my peers. I hear stories every day from people I'm dealing with about their desperation -- losing the house, losing the cars, husband had a stroke, no health insurance, kids can't take them in because they're losing the house!!!

So what can an individual do about all this? I help where I can, but I have to stay afloat financially, if I can. I'm not dealing drugs; I'm involved in a very respectable career! :)

Let's not blame people who are still managing to eat and sleep under a roof, rather than under an underpass, for what is a systemic problem, brought on by unevolved and uncaring politicians who have got theirs, and really don't care about "the little people."

If everyone foreswore buying iPhones, and gave that $300-$600 to a charity, those in need would eat for a short time, and Apple would be out of business, and their employees would be out of a job!

I've listened to stories from my older relatives about how they drove across New Mexico and Texas, picking cotton and wondering how they were going to survive. I do not take this tragedy lightly. I just think we have to be careful that we don't have a mob mentality developing in which people who have done well, and done it honestly, are blamed for having more than those who are in trouble.

I often think of that old story about the railroad barons who thought they were in the railroad business when, really, they were in the transportation business, and had to face the coming of the airplane. We are in thrall to those who think they're in the oil business (and they certainly are), when, really, what we need is major players who are in the *energy* business. They can still make their money, but We, the People, can work in those new industries and the country and its people can thrive -- as opposed to the polarization we suffer through now.

Leadership! That's what is missing.

[DeschutesRiver]

148. I was pointing out that even this well known family paid no attention to the plight of the nation

during the worst Depression. This was a politically well connected family, who had been entrusted with leadership positions of various kinds, but nonetheless disconnected enough from the reality of the rest of us to not notice something like the depression.

How could they not have known that there was a depression going on, for all those years? My point wasn't that they should scale back or do more personal charity - it was that the Kennedy family is known for its political influence and office holding, and many positive small things here and there over the years, but they were no different than the politicans of wealth today who have no clue that we are in the middle of a bad time.

If even a family like this is disconnected from reality, then it should be no surprise that today's leaders and office holders on both sides are clueless about people's plights. Clueless politicians are the systemic problem no matter how much we want to glorify certain individual politicians or political dynasties for "working so hard for the little people" or throwing a few bones out here and there to calm the herd.

I think leadership constantly fails because we are asking them to provide things for the rest of us that frankly are not in their best interests to do. I used the Kennedys as one example of those who are part of the system that wrote the rules to their own benefit and apparently, didn't give a darn about the ripple effect on the rest of us. To the point of not even seeing it unfold before them.

[puebloknot]

149. I agree that one family like that does not have the wealth ...

... to take care of the masses, but they could have used their considerable influence to set an example.

The Kennedy generations that have followed have had many members who have devoted their lives to public service. It might cynically be said that guilt was a strong motivating factor, but I'm not so sure.

I'm reminded of the character, Daisy, and all her associates in the Fitzgerald novel "The Great Gatsby," who took what they wanted and were unaware (intentionally so) of the suffering they caused or at least enabled. We see that in spades today.

I guess a major part of my thinking when I responded to your OP was that individuals can do their part to try to help, but the problem is too big for individuals to have much impact. We need sweeping programs that are based in practical reality with regard to creating infrastructure, education, health care, and on and on, in which people could work and be fairly compensated.

And one more personal sharing (whether you asked for it or not), with regard to my ruminating about being relatively (*relatively*, I said) safe in today's economy (and for how long I can't guess): When I was a small child, I lived in just-prewar Korea and post-war Germany, and I saw first-hand the suffering of people who are subject to the whims of political history. It so marked me that I've had a hard time in my life enjoying the things I've worked hard for (and I do not live a flamboyant life in any way) because of the memories of people who were barely existing while I lived on their soil and enjoyed the relative safety of my American status. That kind of guilt can be stifling, serves no good purpose. Guilt for having billions while others have nothing is another matter.

I think we're philosophically on pretty much the same page. I just don't know what can realistically be done to change things. Historically, it seems it's always taken violent revolution to effect change.

Your thoughts?

[DeschutesRiver]

151. My thoughts are still a work in progress on this issue, I'm afraid

When I was young, and there was a war that our government would not abandon, I watched individuals band together to protest in unbelievable numbers and with such determination that it stopped. I watched a nation of individuals create change during the Civil Rights movement with a ferocity that reduced institutionalized racism to a tiny flow from the gusher it had been. Just a few examples, but I was the product of times that made me believe that for the biggest problems, it was only individuals uniting for a purpose that could institute change, and that such change only lasts as long as one is willing to fight to protect and encourage its continued existence.

While I've gone back and forth on this in my mind over the years, at present I have my doubts that our government ever would be willing or able to create sweeping change in the way it delivers what is needed to its citizens. And even if it did, I have serious doubts that any such sweeping reforms would be welcomed by some (many?) of those who are intended as beneficiaries. And while I agree that violent revolution has created some spectacular results in this regard, have you noticed that those changes never seem to last more than X number of generations? Not that one doesn't try for it anyway, but I am learning to accept that human nature is what it is.

The unemployment rate in our nearest town here has been hovering +/- 20% for some time. Yet I believe that even at this level of job/home loss, there would not be many takers should something like a WPA be created, as one example. Even in crisis, I'd say that the majority of the people I speak with still do not want to give up perceived status or things that I would cull in a heartbeat, were I in their position (and have culled in the past). Some of these people have lived most, if not their entire lives in our American historical bubble of prosperity and relative safety. This is their first brush with how badly things can go. I think their attitude will change dramatically, but not until things are far worse, probably next year. Between this and the Gulf disaster, I am at a loss for words on what makes some people tick these days.

The only thing I know for sure is that I personally can cause change in someone else's life, and so that is my focus. I stay local mostly, so that I can be closer to judge cause and effect of my efforts, and modify as needed. That is no sweeping solution of course, but the most that one individual can probably do right now if they are so inclined.

Interesting side note from me re yours: Dh's mother was a German who grew up in Nurenberg; his American father was a judge in the Nurenburg civil reparations trials (subsequently they moved briefly to the region now known as Pakistan - quite a bit of political turbulence at that time of course), so I know vicariously of the things of which you speak. I think my take away from listening to those lessons was that if individuals don't unite to fight the political whims, then those results are how your story ends. And that is pretty ugly, isn't it?

[DeschutesRiver]

152. Woke up with a clearer way to phrase my thought

as always:)

What I am seeing in my neck of the woods is that to the extent people want government to act to relieve their suffering, they want to have their lives back exactly as they were, esp. during the last boom decade. And I don't believe there is any way to do that.

Do you see similar expectations in your area from those who are experiencing hard times?

[laughingliberal]

62. Yeah, sucks to be here in the half who are being destroyed. nt

[KoKo]

121. The other 3/4ths are out BUYING...BUYING...the rest of us need to tighten Belts and Buy Guns!

Store bottled water and grow our own fruits and veggies. Helps to have a box of candles because pretty soon you wont be able to obtain battries because the Rich have bought them out and make sure you find a FAN at Goodwill. You will need it in this long hot Summer and buy a Kerosene Heater for the Fall and Winter. Maker sure you monitor it. Too many folks have died with those kerosene heaters. You can always buy wood or cut up your landscaping, though. Just remember...some wood isn't good to burn. It will smoke you out and if your kids are sick with allergies...you'll have to buy the good stuff.

Canned Goods and bartering with your neighbors.

IT's the NEW WAY while the Wall St. FAT CATS enjoy the vacations in the Bahamas and their kids are ready to go off to Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford.

We gotta protect our own. Christian Charter Schools for our kids if we can raid the piggy bank and if not then they go to the "low schools" for those who are "disadvantaged" by not qualifying for Charter. It's off to the Unemployment lines for them and living for years in the attic or basement if you are lucky enough to have a house with those facilities. If you rent an apartment then throw the kid out on the street with their dog or cat and give them a Tent purchased at Wall Mart on Sale. Give them a hand can opener and some beans and spam and they can get along.

Tough Times are A'coming. PREPARE!

[DailyGrind51]

135. Tax those with secure employment scaled to the unemployment rate!

Maybe, when "unemployment" affects THEM in the "wallet", they won't be so apathetic!

[DailyGrind51]

73. Especially if their jobs are protected by contracts!

[sendero]

5. And who ELSE will pay the price...

... Democrats in Washington in November.

Obama zigs when he should zag and zags when he should zig. He is clueless when it comes to the economy.

[breadandwine]

110. Exactly, Sendero. No drama Obama gives no hint he feels our pain and the public is unmoved.

The public wants to see a man who cares. Obama's passionless style does not show this and the public is freaking out looking for a hook to hang its anger on and that's the GOP brand at the moment. Obama shows no sign he is "fighting" for us even when he is and he is too in bed with the GOP and BP and the public can't figure it out.

In November the GOP nut cases will all be rushing to the polls while Democrats will be apathetic and stay home like they did under DLC Clinton.

Harry Truman:

"If you run a Republican against a Republican, the Republican will win every time."

Midterm elections have no presidential candidates so only the committed vote and that's Republicans right now, not us.

[liberal N proud]

8. Every republican has the fix - More tax cuts for the rich

[moondust]

23. Yes, yes. And that will help create more jobs...

More tax cuts = more jobs. Got it?

:eyes:

[liberal N proud]

32. I am still waiting for all those jobs bu$h tax cuts promised.

Not one GOPer can show evidence where tax cuts created jobs.

[HughBeaumont]

74. Worse than that . . . we could possibly be seeing a period of no net new jobs in 15 years.

Starting from 2000 to 2015 . . . remember, America still hasn't made up the job loss of 2008-9. In the past 10 years, America's job creation record is downright miserable:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/94

It's all thanks to Republiconomics practiced by both parties. Laissez-Fail benefits no one but the rich.

[OhioChick]

119. "It's all thanks to Republiconomics practiced by both parties."

You're absolutely right.

[Enthusiast]

128. Now wait a minute!

Steele says he is "almost confident" that jobs were produced under Bush. :rofl:

[HughBeaumont]

131. I'm almost confident that Steele is a carnival-barking lunatic if he thinks that.

Facts, indeed, are strange things. Der Failure Fuhrer's "Reagan Redux" policies torched not only jobs, but the potential to create more as well. It was always about enhancing the coffers of the rich.

And as long as they got theirs, through low taxation, various loopholes, grants and whatnot . . . why should they give two piles of monkey crap what us "workers" want?

Steele must still be trying to sell the B.S. line that "What's good for the wealthy is good for YOU!"

[Enthusiast]

134. They even called

him out on Fox News for that little misstatement. I was in shock.

[Enthusiast]

127. Yeah, it has been working so well

since we enacted the Bush tax cuts.

[xchrom]

10. recommend

[CoffeeCat]

11. This Depression...

...is truly bizarre.

In the Great Depression, people from all walks of life and socioeconomic levels suffered. This time, it
feels as if the rich and the upper and upper-middle classes are nearly immune.

We seem to have a fractured economy. An upper half that is doing well. And if these people become unemployed they can
find work. Then, we have a lower class. They're jobs have been outsourced and they aren't coming back. They are stuck
in a cycle of poverty and misfortune, and the government programs that have always been there for them are being cut.

It's as if someone has decided to cull the herd. The disparity between the "haves" and the "have nots" has never been so great.

The media crows about recovery--and touts new gadgets and the cool places to vacation. The media ignores the financial
plight of people who are unemployed and not doing well. It's almost as if they are being told that they don't fit in
or belong anymore and that their reality does not count. Krugman is the first to define this as a Depression. The MSM
touts recovery--leaving the "have nots" to feel defective, like there is something wrong with them because they aren't
enjoying the massive recovery.

I think we are being divided into camps. I think the royalty that is running this world has decided that some people
don't count. They make people hostile against anyone on food stamps or unemployment, while we're facing an economic
crisis. This Depression feels orchestrated.

In the Great Depression, everyone worked together to help one another. Even government policies acknowledged the suffering
and provided a way out. There is no unification now. Government can't even be relied on to extend unemployment benefits
without a massive fight. We are not unified and offering help in this Depression.

We're being divided further.

[mod mom]

18. Not true. In my husband's field, there is 30% unemployment.

People who have been good productive people are out because of no or little work.

[newfie11]

26. I think more will be out of work as this continues

My field X-ray technologist (medical) has never been like it is now. I have worked all across the country( LA-Washington DC and in between), never had a problem finding a job. Now there are very few jobs available and new students can't get hired. Many are taking per deim positions. Yeah this is the medical field that I never thought I would see this happen.

[William Z. Foster]

108. that was true in the 30's as well

The rich and the upper and upper-middle classes are nearly immune in the 30's, as well.

The difference between today and the 30's is that there was a strong left in the 30's and a fifth estate. Otherwise the suffering by half of the population would have been as hidden as it is today.

Our job is to be the left and to take the place of the press. Or die.

[unhappycamper]

12. And this is why we are spending obscene amounts of money on the MIC.

If you recall, World War II is what got us out of that depression.

We got our asses kicked at Pearl Harbor. I guess if we have plenty of everything we won't have another Pearl Harbor. :tinfoilhat:

[mikekohr]

22. The "Great Depression" ran from 1929 to 1939, Pearl Harbor occurred in late 1941

FDR took office in 1933 and beat the stupendous economic ineptitude of the Republican Party inside of 7 years. President Obama's "Bubble Up" economic policies are working. But you can't completely turn the cumulative effect of 20 years of Republican economic policy around in 18 months.

mike kohr

[Confusious]

45. No, but I would like to see him put people in charge that see the problem

He's put people in charge that think everything is A-OK! Rules? We don't need no stinking rules! We don't need to regulate the shit that caused this in the first place! We don't need to have more oversight so the banks don't sell the same thing to people multiple times.

The free market will iron everything out! after you've lost everything of course, unless you're rich. In that case, you get a bailout!

[TheWatcher]

65. Bubble Economics is what got us into this mess.

To suggest that even MORE Bubble Economic Ponzi Policies will solve the problem is a bit absurd.

[Zhade]

144. "The house is on fire! Quick, throw more gasoline on it!"

NT!

[postulater]

145. You sound optimistic. I hope you're right! nt

[notesdev]

13. Gee thanks Paul

Did that Nobel Prize in Economics help you figure it out, or did you simply read what I wrote a year plus ago?

[JHB]

14. Other recent Krugman articles

Just adding links to other recent Krugman columns (the last 5 previous to today's) for further reading.
The parts in parentheses are my attempts at short summaries to give some sense of the topic, not anything by Krugman or from the Times.


The Renminbi Runaround (China's currency games)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/opinion/25krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

Now and Later (scolding the deficit scolds)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/21/opinion/21krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

That ’30s Feeling (austerity groupthink)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/opinion/18krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

The Pain Caucus (austerity fever and the madness of Very Serious Peiople)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/opinion/31krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

The Old Enemies (corporate tantrums and how they get away with it)
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/opinion/24krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman

[AndyA]

15. There seems to be a big disconnect, with the American people, and with Obama.

First, we need JOBS. Big time. We aren't getting them in numbers high enough to do much good. Obama knows this and yet...crickets.

Then the dumb American people, feeling the pain of high deficits and unemployment will go to the polls in November and put the very same party responsible for this mess back in power!

They don't "get it" that two wars based on the lies of Bushco are responsible for most of the deficit.

They can't see that deregulation, cronyism, corruption, and tax cuts for the wealthy did nothing but harm America and make the wealthy even wealthier. Where are all those jobs 8 years of tax cuts were supposed to bring us? Answer: they didn't happen.

The Democrats are to blame as well, for failure to frame this for what it really is: a Republican problem. Despite the oil spill, brought on by deregulation, the Dems haven't choked the GOP with this crisis, and they should have.

The Democrats never fail to ignore an opportunity.

[NJmaverick]

20. You should read the article, because Krugam doesn't agree with your assessment

[depakid]

21. Oh, my bet is that he completely agrees

he's written as much on his blog over the past 36 months or so.

[NJmaverick]

30. He is in agreement with the President's approach. What has gotten him so pessimistic

is the approach of the G-20 and the Republican's blocking of the President's full efforts

[depakid]

34. Well, he (and many others) warned him about pandering to the right- and about half measures

starting in 2008.

He (and his insular team) didn't listen.

And before you jump in with some comment- know that I take no pleasure (nor likely does Krugman, Dean Baker- and any number of others) in having been right about this- though I will say it was amusing to see Susan Collins still bragging about having slashed pandemic preparedness funds in the middle of a pandemic.

[NJmaverick]

35. You might want to take a minute from the tenuous claims about pandering

to consider the biggest impact is from overseas where the President doesn't control things. Finally I fail to follow your logic that pissing off the right even more, will make them more prone to cooperate.

[depakid]

36. Oh please

:crazy:

[laughingliberal]

67. I noticed a few weeks ago the President seemed to wake to the fact spending cuts will be disastrous.

It was about the same time Bernanke seemed to wake up to it. It was the 2 of them coming out about this in the same week that confirmed my belief we are heading into another massive downturn.

Until the past few weeks, however, President Obama and Chairman Bernanke were right there with the deficit hawks. Knowing the initial stimulus bill was inadequate, there was never a peep about further stimulus and the word from the President at the jobs' summit was 'limited resources' for this. Just last week, when being taken to task for the abysmal failure of the HAMP program by Elizabeth Warren, Geithner, essentially, shrugged, admitted the program had not worked, and said resources are, "scarce," for further stimulus.

The evidence is some in the administration have awaken to the freight train heading for us but, likely, too late.

Piss off the right? What does it matter? If we appease the right we get austerity. If we piss off the right, we get austerity.

Standing up and telling the American people the truth and advocating for the correct policies could build public support which, in turn, could be used to pressure the right. Not doing this just allows the right to continue to act as if their failed policies of the pas 30 years still have any credibility.

[tkmorris]

142. Ah. So your plan involves getting Republicans to cooperate with us

How's that been working for ya so far?

[AndyA]

38. I read the article.

The essence of what he wrote and my assessment are similar. :shrug:

[TheWatcher]

106. Who is Krugam?

:rofl:

[nickinSTL]

16. How does Krugman saying it make it "official"?

I completely agree with him, and have thought we were in a depression for the past 2 years at least.

However, as Krugman holds no position in the Administration, or the Fed, or anything of the kind, his pronouncement means about as much as mine.

The difference being, of course, that he can get his published in the NYTimes.

[Cyrano]

17. Well, not only is he a columnist for the NY Times, but he

also is a professor of economics at Princeton and has been awarded the 2008 Noble Prize in Economics.

We live in a world where credentials and accomplishments count. Many of us believed we were in a depression, but we didn't have Krugman's megaphone, nor the wide-spread respect he has earned.

[Dreamer Tatum]

70. Still doesn't make it so. nt

[Cyrano]

86. Yeah, I guess you're right. So let's just ignore all measurements of

accomplishments. Hell, let's just say that Shakespeare sucked, Mozart didn't know shit about music, and Tennessee Williams couldn't write a decent play that took place in New Orleans.

DU rules state that you cannot call somone an idiot. And I agree with such rules. But I sincerely wish they were otherwise.

[Dreamer Tatum]

88. STILL doesn't make Krugman right. Sorry. nt

[SOS]

156. But this adds some weight

"the initial stages of our own recent crisis were more severe than the Great Depression. Global trade, industrial production and stocks all dropped
more in 2008-9 than in 1929-30, as a study by Barry Eichengreen and Kevin H. O’Rourke found."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/business/economy/30leonhardt.html

Only a quick switch from the idiocy of Greenspan/Friedman/Rand back to Keynsian government intervention temporarily saved this country from total collapse.

Only time will tell.
I agree with Krugman's forecast: the worst is yet to come.

[Robb]

25. Because DU agrees with all NYT columnists

...except for when we don't. ;)

[SunsetDreams]

51. Good one Robb!

Sad but true.

[laughingliberal]

71. I don't always agree with Krugman. I don't always agree with any one human being.

I have been watching the signs and I know Reich has been saying this for a while. Reich does seem to get it right a good part of the time. Now, it seems, the two of them are in agreement. I know it has certainly presented as a depression in my state in reality whatever the technicality of it may have been.

Add in the sudden change in President Obama and Ben Bernanke's tone regarding spending cuts and it may not be a depression but it'll do til a real one shows up. I think it's past time to be denying it and time to start looking for ways to reverse it.

[SunsetDreams]

52. you make a great point nickinSTL

[donco6]

138. A person doesn't have to be part of the Admin or Fed to be accomplished.

From where did that notion arise? It's pretty ridiculous.

You may or may not agree with Krugman, but one thing you cannot do is dismiss him as if he's not worthy.

[nickinSTL]

147. I do agree with Krugman, and I don't want to

minimize his accomplishments.

However, I don't know that a professor or a columnist for the NY Times saying there's a depression makes it "official". That was my only point.

There seems to be a lot of reading into my post, thinking I don't value Krugman's opinion or his credentials. I do. The thing is, that doesn't mean he has the clout to declare an "official" depression.

I also greatly respect the opinions of Robert Reich. However, if he said the same thing, I'd have the same question.

I guess my question is - who needs to say it to make it "official"?

[donco6]

150. Well, that is a good question

But a Nobel prize winner is probably a good bet. I would think, however, that there would have to be backup confirmation from a number of sources. Reich is a good start. Is that all that's necessary? I dunno . . . maybe. Like you, I kinda hope he's wrong.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. I'm glad he finally came around to agreeing with me.

I keed, I keed.

But there's no surprise here. A recession just doesn't persist for years.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

27. you can say that again. Mass Depression.

oh - this is about the "economy"

[Odin2005]

28. We are so fucked! And meanwhile, the MIC keeps getting more and more money!

:grr:

[uponit7771]

41. This bothers me the most....

[Enthusiast]

129. Because it is not accomplishing

a fucking thing? That's the way I see it. Rat hole.

[HughMoran]

29. Good article. The Republicans and conservative Democrats are taking us down

It fucking pisses me off. :mad:

[Poiuyt]

37. I fear that I am in that group who will never work again

I'm 57 years old and am having an impossible time finding something. I'd be happy to retrain, but into which field?

[Cyrano]

54. All I can suggest is what a few people I know have done

Figure out what you do best. It may be carpentry, it may be tutoring, it may be gardening, it may be interior decorating, it may be an understanding of our tax system, it may be art, or it may be any of a thousand other things.

Then, take out an ad in your local newspaper, or try to find local people online, who have a need for your skill and are willing to pay for it. And if you can't write an ad, ask a friend or relative who is skilled at writing to help you.

And don't ignore the barter system. There are things you can do that others need, and there are things that others can do that you need. Help each other.

It may not bring about your previous income, but it is possible that it will bring about sufficient income as well as some piece of mind.

[joeybee12]

40. Well, he hasn't been right about everything...

but I'll still listen to him over most pundits.

[Subdivisions]

50. He sold out concurrent with receiving the Nobel Prize. Go figure. n/t

[newspeak]

42. some people here saw the "writing on the wall" quite a while ago

If you looked at Reagan's economic policies in the eighties, the extreme cut on taxes for the wealthy, while pushing deregulation. The book "The Predator's Ball" reflects the ACTUAL reality at the time. How, with junk bonds, some greed heads were allowed to hostilely take over corporations in the black and raid them-leaving employees vulnerable. With junk bonds, these cretins didn't really have to use their own assets; hence, less risk to them. I remember Disney fought off a takeover, then there was Revlon, Simplicity Patterns, whose employees worked for the company for generations. These companies were healthy until taken over. The book has a list of companies that were forced to file bankruptcy. Yet, a couple of PR people can make Reagan into some kind of business guru.

Now, if people really had read about Little Boots business dealings, maybe they'd have second thoughts about selecting him as a leader. Who profited from his business dealings? It looks like him and his family. I mean, Poppy had influence and some of Poppy's friends fronted *-then there was that alleged insider trading that makes Martha Stewart look like a Girl Scout. Now how many people do you think he took to the cleaners?

You start a bogus war, giving your war profiteering friends more access (by privatizing some military services) to our money and further cut taxes for the wealthy; because, hey, the wealthy don't pay taxes anyway. A planeload of cash is transported to Iraq, and people wonder "where'd the money go"? After the savings and loan heist, we have another grand heist, and some people just don't get it. They have raided, while snipping at the social safety net for the rest of us--all the while, with the assistance of MSM, shouting to the rooftops that government doesn't work. Well, it doesn't work when you purposely make it not work. I mean, do they honestly believe that corporations, privatizing, is more effective? We spend more money on privatization with even less quality of service and less accountability.

Deregulation on Wall Street, pouring more and more money in the MIC, cutting taxes to the most wealthy in this country, making lopsided trade deals while allowing corporations tax incentives moving jobs overseas--hell, anyone with two brain cells could see we were being set up for an economic disaster.

[Subdivisions]

49. Including me. And I'm just some Joe Sixpack sitting at home, scratching my nuts. n/t

[Enthusiast]

130. This is the way I see it. nt

[Subdivisions]

48. Krugman is a sell-out and an idiot that lost his chance at respect. n/t

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=8649445&mesg_id=8649814

[robdogbucky]

55. Official?

Nice to see that this fellow finally woke up, but over a year ago Robert Reich called it:


It's a Depression
April 3, 2009, 9:51AM

The March employment numbers, out this morning, are bleak: 8.5 percent of Americans officially unemployed, 663,000 more jobs lost. But if you include people who are out of work and have given up trying to find a job, the real unemployment rate is 9 percent. And if you include people working part time who'd rather be working full time, it's now up to 15.6 percent. One in every six workers in America is now either unemployed or underemployed.

Every lost job has a multiplier effect throughout the economy. For every person who no longer has a job and can't find another, or is trying to enter the job market and can't find one, there are at least three job holders who become more anxious that they may lose their job. Almost every American right now is within two degrees of separation of someone who is out of work. This broader anxiety expresses itself as less willingness to spend money on anything other than necessities. And this reluctance to spend further contracts the economy, leading to more job losses. Capital markets may or may not unfreeze under the combined heat of the Treasury and the Fed, but what happens to Wall Street is becoming less and less relevant to Main Street. Anxious Americans will not borrow even if credit is available to them. And ever fewer Americans are good credit risks anyway.

All this means that the real economy will need a larger stimulus than the $787 billion already enacted. To be sure, only a small fraction of the $787 billion has been turned into new jobs so far. The money is still moving out the door. But today's bleak jobs report shows that the economy is so far below its productive capacity that much more money will be needed. This is still not the Great Depression of the 1930s, but it is a Depression. And the only way out is government spending on a very large scale. We should stop worrying about Wall Street. Worry about American workers. Use money to build up Main Street, and the future capacities of our workforce.

Energy independence and a non-carbon economy should be the equivalent of a war mobilization. Hire Americans to weatherize and insulate homes across the land. Don't encourage General Motors or any other auto company to shrink. Use the auto makers' spare capacity to make busses, new wind turbines, and electric cars (why let the Chinese best us on this?). Enlarge public transit systems.
Meanwhile, extend our educational infrastructure. So many young people are out of work that they should be using this time to improve their skills and capacities. Expand community colleges. Enlarge Pell Grants. Extend job-training opportunities to the unemployed, so they can learn new skills while they're collecting unemployment benefits.

Finally, accelerate universal health care.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/robert_reich/2009/04/its-a-depression.php

[SlipperySlope]

56. Isn't so easy for other countries

Krugman is throwing stones because other G-20 countries have decided to take the path of austerity. Sure, it is easy to see that they should try to spend their way out of this. But many of these countries have a key constraint that the United States doesn't.

They can't print money.

We won't have a problem spending all we need because we have a system that allows the Federal Reserve to print as much money as needed.

Much of the G-20 (particularly the eurozone) doesn't have this flexibility. And it would be just about politically impossible for them to renegotiate the treaties to allow them to print unlimited money.

So what else can they do? They can't print money and their ability to borrow is increasingly constrained. Unfortunately that seems to leave only austerity or default as options.

If only they had come into this less debt-ridden, they would be more free to borrow, but that isn't their situation.

At least the United States can print all the money we need. The misery in the rest of the world is going to be terrible.

[Major Hogwash]

57. How many quarters have we been losing jobs?

12?
16?
20?

Yeah, no shit we're in a depression.
But, don't tell the Republicans in the Senate - they, all of a sudden overnight, want to balance the budget instead of extending unemployment benefits to millions of Americans.

I could understand their angst if we were asking them to extend unemployment benefits to the French, but these are to Americans!

[Cyrano]

58. I'm astounded at how many are directing their ire toward Paul Krugman,

and his article in today's NY Times. Out current economic depression is due to every presidential administration since Reagan, the Republican Party, and blue dog Democrats. And it's also connected to the world economy.

Paul Krugman may be a little late with his "Depression" message to suit many of us. However, why is anyone "shooting the messenger?"

Is there really anyone on DU who doesn't know who put us here?

Is there really anyone on DU who doesn't know who wants to keep us in servitude and continue to rape us?

Is there really anyone on DU who doesn't know who our enemy is?

Is there really anyone on DU who doesn't know we are in a non-shooting war with a small minority of incredibly wealthy, powerful people who don't care whether we live or die?

So go ahead, if you must, and run down Krugman all you want. But he's really one of the good guys. And he's on our side.

[LWolf]

91. I'm not astounded.

Using the word "depression" puts the lie to those who have been pushing the good news of economic "recovery" under the current administration.

Of course they're going to go after him.

[laughingliberal]

98. Shoot the messenger is a real favorite around here. nt

[Major Hogwash]

117. It's like "pin the tail on the donkey".

Even 6-year olds can play this game.

Krugman disagreed with Obama - throw him under the bus!!!

Grab your pitchforks and torches!!

Krugman must be crucified!!!

[OhioChick]

120. I've noticed. n/t

[Romulox]

105. Krugman, noted "Third Way" economist, doesn't wear the mantle of firebrand populist well

During 8 years of the Bush admin, he was a cheerleader for globalism, "free trade", and deregulation. :hi:

[jpak]

59. GDP went from -6.4% in Jan09 to +2.7% in Jan10, unemplyment dropped from 10.2 to 9.7% too

Job losses went from 700,000 a month in Jan09 to positive job gowth today.

yup

we are in a DEEEEEpression alright...

:rofl:

[TheWatcher]

66. Childish taunting and disconnect from reality doesn't change the actualy reality we are living in.

A lot of people are suffering out here, and they really are grasping for some kind of hope, and they aren't seeing any kind of representation from their duly elected "leaders."

Go try your comedy act on some of them.

I wonder how long you'd last?

Propaganda does not equal reality.

But as long as you're doing fine, everything is puppies and rainbows.

The rest of We The People matters not.

[jpak]

69. Figures don't lie - we're in recovery

sorry to inform you

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laughingliberal]

77. Sure. And the fundamentals of the economy are sound. nt

[TheWatcher]

79. Don't Forget they are "Robust." "Strong and getting Stronger."

:rofl:

[jpak]

84. Obama and the Democrats saved us from a Great Depression

and virtually all economic indicators point to continued US economic recovery with no significant inflation.

thems the facts

yup!

[laughingliberal]

93. And the fundamentals of the economy are strong!!!

Trying to remember where I last heard that. Oh, yeah! John McCain, right before the crash.

yup!

[jpak]

94. Stop listening to "that one" and give us some economic data to back up the "depression" claim

here - once again - is the Dreaded Bikini Plot of US jobs gains/losses

[laughingliberal]

96. Insead, I'll just bookmark the thread and we can take a look in a couple of months.

The very abrupt change in President Obama and Ben Bernanke's position on spending cuts the past couple of weeks indicates to me they see serious problems heading our way. I could be wrong and so could Krugman and Reich but time will tell.

[jpak]

99. Here are US GDP stats 2009 - 2010

http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=5&FirstYear=2009&LastYear=2010&Freq=Qtr

no evidence of depression here either

thank you Mr. President

yup!

[laughingliberal]

100. I'm done. I'm bookmarking the thread and will have it for reference when we see how thing are

in a few weeks.

yup!

[eridani]

101. We are looking ar 15 STRAIGHT YEARS of no net job growth!

Whether we are in a "recovery" or not is utterly irrelevant. We've already had several such "recoveries" that have left an increasing number of people permanently fucked over.

[TheWatcher]

103. But he doesn't care about those people.

He cares about fictionalized Government numbers and Propaganda, which enables him to strut around like a Peacock and insult and mock those who don't buy into it.

Things are just fine for people like HIM.

Screw everyone else.

Yup!

[Skittles]

125. please, please open your eyes

LOOK AROUND

[TheWatcher]

141. Careful Skittles, or he will call you "that one" and post more "Reality Based" Charts.

[hayu_lol]

72. The only reasons that this doesn't feel like a depression...

is that we have the following:

Welfare
Food Stamps
Disability
Social Security
A Very Large Military Establishment

The social programs alone keep new money filtering into all communities.

We didn't have any of these during the 30s.

What we will need to recover are the jobs programs that were developed to get people back to working. Eliminate H1Bs and send the flakes home.

[laughingliberal]

80. And we are about to see drastic cuts to the first 4 items on your list.

Over a million are about to lose UI benefits. All of that added together equals a huge downturn headed our way. Every dollar of UI benefits no longer going out and every dollar of welfare or food stamps no longer being paid is a dollar the economy loses.

Jobs' programs are a big part of the answer. But, listening to Geithner last week, I don't expect we'll see any.

[jpak]

87. Last thing I heard was it was GOP Senators that killed the jobs bill - Geithner is not a Senator

and did not cast a vote against it.

The GOP is against extended UI and calls it "welfare".

not Obama or Geinther

yup!

[laughingliberal]

92. I took his statements as an indication the administration does not intend to push further

for any jobs' programs. Small wonder we can't get any passed. We conceded the debate to the deficit hawks and then ask for a jobs's bill-just an itty, bitty one, pretty please. Why would they think that would work? Geithner and Obama's statements about 'limited' or 'scarce' resources for jobs' programs or further stimulus is adhering to the RW meme and lending them credibility.


yup!

[jpak]

95. Your interpretation

and wrong

yup!

[laughingliberal]

97. Well, as I said above, I'll bookmark this & if we see the administration come out for more stimulus

then I can say I was wrong. I don't expect to see it but time will tell. See you in a couple of months.

yup!

[TheWatcher]

140. You may not need to wait for two months.

Some very ugly Economic Reality is coming out TODAY.

The Bubble is continuing is burst.

I wonder if he will come under his rock and address ANY of it.

I doubt it.

People like him get VERY silent on days when ACTUAL REALITY rears it's ugly head.

[BOG PERSON]

112. Yeah, I don't get it either.

Recent data indicates the sky is not falling.

[Lilith Velkor]

85. "imposing suffering on other people is how you show leadership in tough times"

How changealicious.

[earth mom]

89. I'm no expert, but I knew this months, no, make that years, ago.

:(

[Cyrano]

109. Hi earth mom. A disaster is never a disaster unti we're told it is.

I don't mean to be sarcastic. Paul Krugman is one of the good guys and stating what he has in the NY Times is major "News" to a majority of people in this country.

Of course, none of us need to be informed that we're living in a totally screwed up world that's in a depression. But economists see things different from how the rest of us see things.

Hopefully, someday, a sane view of reality will descend on the rest of us.

[onecent]

102. +1

[WI_DEM]

104. While I respect his opinion I think it takes more than Paul Krugman to say we are in a depression.

[laughingliberal]

107. He's not alone. Reich has been talking about the double dip for a while.

Depression, recession. When you live in a county with 18% unemployment (14% statewide), it's a depression for us. We were teetering before the failure to extend UI benefits. How much money is that which will no longer be going into the economy? Add in the massive layoffs we are about to see in the states and we're about to lose a ton of money in the real economy. I'm not encouraged by anything I'm seeing.

[Mimosa]

111. No news to me.

I saw this coming five years ago. Two years ago I recognised the current situation as our generation's Great Depression. I only hope action will be taken to keep things from becoming worse.

[GoCubsGo]

154. Hell, I saw it coming on Election Night 2001

No surprise that someone, who ran every business he ever owned into the ground, would do the same to the country. Nothing is going to change, because his ilk are really what is running this country, not President Obama. As long as the right-wing, corporate-owned propaganda machine that is our mainstream media keeps up the fear-mongering, people will still be too afraid to spend money, or hire into their small businesses, or buy houses, cars... And, this being the United States of Amnesia, will turn around and vote back in the very party that caused this mess in the first place.

[northernlights]

155. I've got ya both beat

I saw this coming at the end of the 90s -- 98? 99? I still remember sitting in my cubicle reading the online news...and saw that they'd repealed Glass-Steagal. I said to myself, "Oh my god, we're going to have a depression." Just didn't know when.

I also have kind of known since I was a little kid. Also have always believed that there wouldn't be a social security when it was my turn.

My father never talked about the great depression. My mother only said one thing that I remember. "At first it was great because everything was so cheap. And then there wasn't anything to buy."

[stevenleser]

113. What I got from this is that he isn't 100% sure that this is where we are yet.

I think the next 12 months will be the key.

[BOG PERSON]

114. Thomas L. Friedman

always insists the next 6 months are the ones that will be key.

[laughingliberal]

116. Guess Paul will need his spot under the bus back, soon. nt

[Sisaruus]

118. Sad to say but we've been hiring additional staff this year.

I work at a food bank.

[skeptical cynic]

132. There's a neoliberal agenda that transcends parties

So I don't believe the blame can be placed on Republicans only. Yes, the war on the workers resumed with Reagan's election, but a big part of the blame for where we are rests on Bill Clinton's shoulders. And Obama seems to be more of Clinton, especially with Bernanke an Geithner calling the Administration's shots.

My family and I were expecting and planning for a depression, just based on simple awareness of what's going on around us. We might even be contributing to it with our cuts in non-essential spending. We're past the point where great oratory can change our opinions about what is so obvious.

Globally, the working class is in trouble because those making the decisions do not share our fate or our pain.

[spicegal]

133. Why does no one listen to this man?

He's the one who's been right. We continue to stick our heads in the sand.

[Stargazer09]

136. Scary

I hope that he's not right about this, but he does present a strong case.

[mdmc]

153. 1