I have become a vegetarian.

[undeterred]

I'm not sure how long you have to be meat free to call yourself a vegetarian... its been over a month since I ate any meat. I have eliminated it from my diet. Its healthier and its ecologically sensible. There is no downside. Its been something I wanted to do for years but never acted on it.

Seeing the pictures of animals suffering a result of the oil spill made me feel helpless... giving up meat gives me a sense that I am sparing some animal lives.

Join me?

[msongs]

1. welcome to the club nt

[AnArmyVeteran]

277. Is there a DU forum for vegetarian tips? I've thought about it, but I know it'd be hard.

[yewberry]

280. Ask anything you want!

He we are:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[AnArmyVeteran]

296. Thanks!

[cwydro]

2. hey

[katanalori]

3. welcome!

I've been free of meat and fowl for 34 years, don't miss it. Since I occasionally eat seafood, I am not technically a vegetarian, but I will get there.

[Ken Burch]

4. I don't think we have a "waiting period" before you're considered Officially Meatless

I'll have to check with the Interplanetary Herbivore League before I can say that for sure, though.

[tranche]

5. A few generations from now we'll all look back at meat eating as detestable.

There may be a small specialty market for the elite, but I can definitely see it falling out of favor only a few more generations from now. And this is coming from a guy who just finished a couple beef ribs.

The simple health benefits of doing away with meat as a protein source, the ethical issues of meat production, and the resource squeeze will make it all a reality.

Congratulations.

[DissedByBush]

378. Meat will be around for a very, very long time

Far from it being an elite thing, poorer places will still require it.

We have the luxury of eating vegetarian because we have an extreme variety of vegetables brought to us by modern growing techniques and long-range transportation, and through science creating various things such as tofu products. Basically, we can afford it. Even in India, vegetarianism is most common among the upper caste Brahmins, who tend to be more religious.

But there are many places where tasty, healthy veggies just don't grow well, and the best source of food is animals that do find the available shrubs and grass to be quite tasty.

[Barack_America]

6. Congratulations on making a smart choice.

Your health will reap the benefits.

[Oregone]

7. Good for you. The environmental impact is immense

[LaurenG]

8. Awesome undeterred

in case you didn't know DU has a vegetarian group. Its full of really smart and helpful people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[flvegan]

9. Welcome and congrats! And no, there's no waiting period.

Probationary vegetarian does sound kind of funny, though. You're sparing a great many animal lives, thank you.

[Ernesto]

10. Join me?

I haven't had fast food for at least a decade. Welcome to reality!

[apocalypsehow]

11. "Join me?" - Nope. UnRec. n/t.

[elocs]

44. Well, I gave it a Rec so that even yours out. n/t

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elocs]

63. Right. Somebody made a personal choice and posted nicely about it

and was not in anybody's face.

[apocalypsehow]

269. For the record: #50 wasn't mine. n/t.

[Codeine]

56. Seems an odd thread to unrec.

What gives? Nothing naggy, or judgmental, or nasty about the OP at all.

[K8-EEE]

104. Some people are just incredibly hostile to vegetarians.

WHY would anybody care if somebody else decides to give up meat. Could it be guilt in their own choices??

[customerserviceguy]

217. Maybe it's fear

grounded in the idea that things that people do for religious or philosophical reasons tend to be foisted off on others, eventually.

The OP can eat or not eat whatever he wishes. I hope that he always respects my right to do the same.

[quickesst]

273. There is not enough space ....

...in computerworld to list the remarks/spoken feelings from vegetarians to those who choose to enjoy a good steak. "disgusting", "savage", "cruel to animals" etc comes to mind.(For the op. No, you becoming a vegetarian will not spare one single animals life. When I buy a steak, I don't buy the whole cow.) Be honest. If it is from guilt some choose to disparage vegetarians, then an equal if not greater number of vegetarians should all be walking hunched over from the burden of guilt they share. Personally, I think giving two shits about what other adults eat is a waste of time. It's none of my business. I eat what I desire at the time I choose to eat. Thanks.
quickesst

[Maru Kitteh]

283. Obviously you give a little more than 2 shits.

Your hostility heaves and seethes from every dark corner of your post like a wounded junkyard dog.

Your defensive reaction is both illogical and wildly disproportionate, like shoving your refrigerator out the window because your wife bought the wrong kind of orange juice.

[K8-EEE]

292. Honestly I don't see any of that here at all

It's all the other way around on this thread isn't it. Look at all the rudeness, it is not coming from the OP and the comments from the pro-veggie people seem supportive and positive. And that is pretty representative of what I have seen at DU.

[Ignis]

306. "an equal if not greater number of vegetarians should all be walking hunched over"

Please provide evidence to support your claim that the number of vegetarians who are guilt-mongering fanatics is greater than the number of meat-eaters who are guilt-mongering fanatics.

Otherwise, you're just engaging in a broad-brush smear, which is against DU's rules.

Thanks!

[opiate69]

274. "WHY would anybody care if somebody else decides to give up meat?"

Hmm.. exactly.. (But I don't think we're making the same point..)

[Bettie]

299. I think what bothers people is the evangelical tone of some

Vegetarians.

Each of us makes our own choices and should make our own choices, but I don't need someone telling me I'm a bad person because I make different choices.

When I have vegetarian friends over, I make veggie food even though my family are omnivores.

However, I don't like being told that anything is the "only" way to be and I tend to push back against that and feel a bit resentful.

It isn't guilt over my choices it is a distaste for being told that my choices should be causing me guilt.

[Ignis]

309. How about changing "some vegetarians" to "some people?"

Anyone who tells you you're a bad person deserves your scorn. It doesn't matter what diet they follow.

[Bettie]

315. This is true, but here we are talking specifically about the group

"vegetarians".

If we were speaking of another group, then I would reference that group.

Someone asked why people don't like people becoming vegetarians and I put forth my opinion on that subject.

You are right, I don't like people telling me who and what I should be in any case.

So, I stand by "some vegetarians" in this particular instance, because of the topic.

[Ignis]

316. OK, but you're only telling half the story.

Most of us who've been vegetarian for any length of time have a big bag of horror stories wherein a meat-eating friend/relative/stranger has gone out of their way to make us feel like absolute crap for our personal dietary choices.

Now, I could say, "some meat-eaters are assholes," but that doesn't particularly add anything to the discussion, does it?



I'm not attempting to quell debate or play Word Police--and I'm certainly not telling anyone what they should or shouldn't eat--but please consider the fact that X behavior by Y sub-set of Z group does not mean that X behavior is an inherent quality of Z group. That's how stereotypes are crafted.

[Bettie]

320. But my response was directed to a post that asked why

some people are hostile to vegetarians.

I'm not particularly hostile toward anyone, I just tried to give a possible reason for this hostility. I did not paint with a broad brush, I said "some" which means a subset of the main group.

And yeah, the people who make you feel bad about your personal dietary choices are just mean people.

Honestly, most of the time, I don't say anything and I should never have posted anything.

Sorry to have made you angry, that was certainly not my intent, nor did I mean to say that all vegetarians are this way.

[Ignis]

322. No, I'm not angry. Yes, you should have posted.

Your last post certainly helps clarify your intent in posting, so I thank you for that. I'm sorry if my own posts haven't been clear, so I'll give it one last go:

I believe it's irresponsible to assume that any individual vegetarian is more (or less!) likely to be evangelical, mean, pushy, etc., solely based on the behavior of other individual vegetarians with whom you've had previous encounters.

If you substitute any other group (ethnic, religious, political, etc.) for "vegetarians" above, perhaps my objection will resonate more deeply with you.

Hope that helps clarify my position. Either way, good luck, and thanks for the discussion.

[uppityperson]

194. Some may find this judgmental, some may unrec for any of it.

Its healthier and its ecologically sensible. There is no downside.
giving up meat gives me a sense that I am sparing some animal lives.

Join me?

[Codeine]

212. I joined you twenty-one years ago.

Never regretted it for a second.

[uppityperson]

221. You joined me in saying that some might find that bit copied from OP is judgemental?

Well, there you go. Perhaps you missed that I was quoting OP as I am an omnivore who tries to eat as local (meat, veg, fruits) and in season (or self canned/frozen) as I can.

[Codeine]

224. Lol!

I misread your post quite badly it would seem.

Epic fail.

[uppityperson]

232. Aw well, still, eating local and low on processing is a positive thing

[Ignis]

246. (OT) It's really easy to quote posts on DU:

Type the following, but change the squiggly brackets to square brackets (same key w/o shift):

{div class=excerpt}Text you want to quote{/div}

It will make the quote appear as follows:

Text you want to quote

[Codeine]

250. Whoa! THAT'S how it's done.

Sweet!

[apocalypsehow]

192. I love me my fan club - and love even more the pseudo-psychoanalysis that follows upon having a

contrary opinion on the internets. It's textbook.

[ornotna]

384. could you be so kind to

point out the "contrary opinion" in the above post? I saw an invitation extended and you chose to decline. You were just a little snotty doing it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

324. Why unrec?

[elocs]

12. The DU meateaters will soon be here to devour you.

The day will come when this planet will no longer be able to support meat eating, not that millions can even afford to eat meat regularly as part of their diet.

[undeterred]

15. Well, I was brought up having meat for dinner every night

as I am sure many other people were. Lifelong habits are hard to change. But the more I've seen and understood of the process by which animals become food, the more I realized I can live without it.

[11 Bravo]

18. I'm an omnivore, not a cannibal.

And if undeterred is happy with her choice, then I'm thrilled for her.

[proteus_lives]

34. Then those millions become the meat.

[Tailormyst]

333. This is just as unhelpful as the omnivores making jerky remarks to the OP

I'm a DU meat eater. I'm not in this post nor have I ever in the past acted like a jerk towards a vegan/vegetarian, etc.

People need to stop lashing out at eat other. It's not healthy.

[Ignis]

339. +1 from a vegan.

Granted, veg*ns have to put up with a lot of unwarranted slings and arrows on DU, but it's still not fair to lump all meat-eaters into a stereotype based solely on their diet, either.

What's good for the soy-goose is good for the gluten-gander.

[Tailormyst]

342. hehe "soy-goose" "gluten-gander"

I totally respect others food choices. I have an "other then norm" diet also. It works for me and I've only gotten a few wired looks and concerned comments. It's not always easy to stick to what we think is right. I admire anyone who does

[LeftyMom]

13. Cool.

Let the boy or I know if you need help changing over a recipe or with a nutrition question or anything like that (I get to volunteer him for things, it's in my contract.)

PS That's a generalized invitation if anybody needs help.

[undeterred]

16. Thanks!

[onehandle]

14. Beer Brats made by the 'Tofurky' company are excellent.

One of the best 'faux meats' out there.

They work well on grills and are just fine microwaved. Most of the time, I broil them for my wife and I in the toaster oven. A little olive oil on a piece of foil and turn a few times until all of the sides are browned. Toasted hot dog bun and spicy brown mustard. Yum.

http://www.tofurky.com/tofurkyproducts/sausages.html

[jgraz]

38. I like those, too (Don't tell my family in Wisconsin)

Unfortunately, I heard they had about a brazilion milligrams of sodium. But they're damned tasty.

[onehandle]

121. A common problem with faux meats.

Vegetarian, of course, doesn't always automatically mean 100% healthy.

I love cheese, but those animal fats are not your friend. Even a decent fake cheese can be pretty oily.

[AllyCat]

256. Field Roast "loaf" was our T-day dinner and was quite good.

They make some chorizo style brats that are quite good and I am not a "substitute meat" lover at all.

[ornotna]

17. "Join me?" - Not yet. Rec. n/t.

[yewberry]

19. And 3...2...1...

until someone shows up and asserts that "join me" is the moral equivalent of coercion or of attempting to legislate against individual freedoms...

[Ignis]

167. Amazingly, the count got as high as 65.

I think that's a DU first.

[Brickbat]

20. No, thank you. Good for you, though.

[City Lights]

21. Congratulations on your decision, and welcome aboard!

I've been meat-free for almost 5-1/2 years.

[undeterred]

22. Thanks!

Wow. More vegetarian DUers than I realized.

[bighughdiehl]

23. congrats

I've been contemplating that leap as well...and partly because of the oil spill and I know a resource crunch is coming....well, already here. I figure going veg is more realistic than not driving
unless you live in NYC. A couple problems....I don't like beans and I know those are supposed to be the big protein source for vegs. I can only eat so much peanut butter, too. I need to work that part out without going overindulging in cheese and eggs(I can't completely give up dairy and eggs, eitehr). What have you been eating? Any compromises in the works....like holidays?

[undeterred]

58. I'm working on the protein part.

I use Spark People to calculate calories, cholesterol, sugar, fat, and protein every day. 60g of protein is recommended and I'm getting about 40-50g each day. I haven't eaten beans yet, but that would probably bring my grams of protein up.

I will try anything once, but I won't eat things I don't like.

[elocs]

75. Check out this link about protein on page 181 and following pages:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PnO7_2F12p0C&pg=PA181&...

There's some good info and charts about non-animal protein.

I think the bottom line is that if you are paying attention to your vegetarian diet and trying to eat healthy there is very little chance that you would ever be protein deficient in any way.

[undeterred]

77. Thank you.

[elocs]

81. Watch out in backing up because it seems like most of the book is there.

I started going back and then I forgot where the original information I was wanting to point out was located.

[JudyM]

317. great link. very informative. thanks! n/t

[Maru Kitteh]

126. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Protein is everywhere. Nuts, greains, bread, legumes, etc.

The whole "but where will you get your protein" thing is utter bunk. Mr. Kitteh and I went veg right after 9/11 and protein has never been a problem.

[defendandprotect]

139. The kind of protein that you need is in plants . . . it's like anything else ...

you do need "fat" but not the kind that comes from PALM oil --

and you need "salt" but not the kind that comes from dairy and the salt shaker.

Plants -- fruits and vegetables provide what you need --

It's not really complicated -- I've been a veggie more than 20 years --

VEGAN a few years later --

I eat more varied foods now that I did before -- always some new vegetable to try --

love beets and buy them for salads in Whole Foods but never tried to cook them myself.

Enjoy food much more now -- !!

Best wishes --




Don't forget peanut butter -- the kind you get from a machine -- only peanuts --

nothing added. Great with celery or chips -- and the traditional peanut butter

sandwich with jelly!

[nickinSTL]

275. I'm not vegan, but I've had a similar experience

regarding eating more varied foods.

I was always a picky eater when I ate meat, in large part because I was disgusted by much of what is in meat. Weird, gristly bits or bones or fat...all very repulsive reminders of where the food came from.

I find I'm much more adventurous when it comes to eating now, because it's really hard to find disgusting plant material

I've become a big fan of Indian food and Thai food, neither of which I wanted to touch previously. I'll try just about anything...as long as it's vegetarian.

[defendandprotect]

349. Let's hear from you if you get hold of a really good veggie recipe -- !!

[Rob H.]

376. If you like Thai, you might like Vietnamese

I've had some excellent Vietnamese food (tofu stir-fried with lemongrasss comes to mind) and it's similar to Thai in that everywhere I've had it always uses really fresh ingredients. Vegetarian spring rolls with peanut sauce = , too.

[JudyM]

318. Quinoa is high protein, quick and versatile.

2 tips on this: soak/rinse it first to get rid of the bitter hull, and try the red variety, it's got nice flavor. Also, there are a lot of great, innovative vegetarian recipe blogs out there, in addition to the usual recipe websites.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. Good for you.

Been there since '72.

[demmiblue]

25. Preach

it sister!

Congrats on your decision and welcome to the club!

[marylanddem]

26. Welcome to the club -

there are some wonderful veggie products out there - morningstar farms is my current fave. You made the right decision.

[undeterred]

28. Just bought morningstar for the first time this week

and had one for dinner tonight.

[Lucian]

27. Great decision.

A lot of water is used to produce meat. It'll be very soon before we'll be unable to produce meat for everyone's needs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Join you? Never. I'll never turn to the dark side.

I'm a Jedi, like my father before me.

[proteus_lives]

32. Then die. Jedi.

"Force Lightning"

[spiritual_gunfighter]

30. Welcome to the club

It was one of the best decisions I ever made.

[XemaSab]

31. Good for you!

I don't know if pointers are welcome, but here are some anyways:

Don't try to eat the meat-and-two-veg without the meat. Veggie sandwiches or Asian-style food is a happier way to go.

Eat foods with a lot of flavor, such as curries or Mexican food.

Snack on nuts.

If you slip up, it's not the end of the world. Vegetarianism isn't like virginity.

Good for you for making the right choice!

[KonaKane]

33. I tried it once. It gave me too much gas.

Now I'm happily back to being an omnivore again.

[Hawkowl]

73. There is an adjustment period

Your body needs time to grow the correct micro flora that assists in the digestion of plant matter. After a while no gas and better health.

[JuniperLea]

185. I gave it five years...

Still had gas... and my hair fell out.

I went by the book, too, and worked with several nutritionists and my doctor.

The gas was painful... but being bald was the last straw.

[malaise]

313. LOL

I never ate pork and stopped eating red meat in 1979. I'm staying with my seafood and bird.

[JuniperLea]

330. Seafood and bird!

That's my way too! A little cheese, a few eggs... ok, I admit to some bacon and pulled pork once in a while. I do have a weakness for andouille sausage, but that's a rare treat. My grandfather raised cattle... I just can't find anything like that now. It either tastes like grass, or death... ew... hahaha!

I could live on swordfish, shrimp and scallops though.

[KonaKane]

343. Sorry, I gave it my best...but this boy's back to omnivore

And I'm sorry to say, I like my diet.

[proteus_lives]

35. Nah. I grew-up with vegetarians.

No thanks.

[awoke_in_2003]

36. Not ready yet...

but I have cut way back on meat consumption. Good for you

[Lucky Luciano]

76. I am kind of like you...though I have started to eat much more fish

in place of meat (distinguishing seafood from meat). I tend to eat very small portions of meat now and I eat a good variety of carbs/veggies/fruits.

[awoke_in_2003]

80. i think we would make a great leap forward...

if we just halved our meat consumption (i cut down around 3/5)

[jgraz]

37. Congratulations. Wish I had your willpower.

Maybe one day I will join you. Don't pay attention to the naysayers.

[undeterred]

90. A lot of reasons converged for me.

I haven't had health insurance for 2 years and may not until Obama's plan kicks in. That has made me get serious about taking care of myself so I don't end up with a chronic health problem like diabetes. Eating a healthier diet and exercising are within my control, insurance or not. So that inclination is reinforced by the political/ethical reasons.

[jgraz]

100. I'd only do it for ethical/emotional reasons

Since I've started doing exotic bird rescue, I've had a harder time enjoying chicken and other poultry. I think the last thing I'd be able to give up would be bacon.

[Maru Kitteh]

131. Going veg is also the quickest thing you can do to reduce your fossil fuel consumption

The amount of fuel that is consumed to produce one pound of meat delivered to your market vs. the same pound of fruits, grains or vegetables is astounding.

A pound of beef costs the planet 200X as much fossil fuel as a pound of potatoes.

There's a nice article, "Bicycling Wastes Gas?," from an online bicycling magazine here complete with good sources and some eye-opening charts.

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/energy.html

[jgraz]

215. One rule I adhere to religiously is NO factory-farmed meat OR produce

Almost everything I eat is local, organic and humanely- and sustainably-raised.

[uppityperson]

226. Me also, and as little processed as I can do.

Eating processed Tradename soy burgers involves too much BigAgribusiness, as well as too much processing and transportation. Since I've raised my own poultry and bought a local cow I know, I cannot buy factory farmed meat from the store.

[Maru Kitteh]

284. That's very good. The world would be a better place if more did the same.

What you're doing falls short of perfect, but almost everything we do whether we are veggie or omni, does. Yours is a step in the right direction. Maybe someday you will make the leap.

It's really not that hard at all. We mostly eat the same things we did before, just minus the meat. Typical dinner at the Kitteh household = baked potato, peas or broccoli, a little fresh or canned fruit and some bread. Easy.

[truth2power]

174. Bacos, in the salad dressing aisle, are tasty. Just MHO, but

I make bacos, lettuce and tomato sandwiches. I can't tell the difference, but other's MMV.

[Codeine]

236. I've so totally done that.

Bac-Os, Vegenaise, romaine lettuce, and a big ol' tomato slice tastes amazing.

Of course, it's probably just as bad for me as the real BLT, but the piggy is probably happier with my version.

[jgraz]

239. Yes, my M totally Vs in this case

I think Bacos are nasty.

[glinda]

39. I will join you if someone recommends some good veg.cookbooks.

I have Moosewood but am not crazy about it.

[flvegan]

40. I found a lot of Moosewood to be...complicated.

What kind of foods do you like? Also, please come post your question in the Vegetarian Forum here at DU.

[Warpy]

48. Restaurantitis

It's a good cookbook if you've got staff and a walk in fridge, not so much if you're cooking at home.

[kurtzapril4]

264. I have one Moosewood cookbook

And I use it all the time. Yes, the recipes tend to be complicated. But they taste really good, IMO. Their Pad Thai is good, the corn quesadillas...I like a lot of them.

[jgraz]

64. I found a lot of Moosewood to be... sucky

I've never seen a recipe from that book that didn't need some serious re-engineering to be edible. I love Mollie's point of view, I just wish her recipes were a little better.

[Ignis]

272. Heh, you should see the Millenium one.

Fantastic food, but wow what a mouthful of instructions.

http://www.millenniumrestaurant.com/restaurant/cookbook...

[undeterred]

43. I have found a lot of stuff online.

http://allrecipes.com/Recipes/everyday-cooking/vegetari...

Allrecipes.com has a decent vegetarian section. And you can search by ingredient for a recipe that includes it.

[LeftyMom]

55. I'm partial to vegweb.com

I usually find that the questions and suggestions for substitutions in the comments below the recipe from people who tried it are every bit as useful as the recipes themselves. They also have a section called "tried and true" or something like that for recipes that consistently get very high reviews.

[Codeine]

45. Vegan with a Vengeance

and The Veganomicon, both by Isa Chandra Moskowitz. Both books kick nigh-infinite ass.

[Warpy]

46. There are a few good, basic whole foods cookbooks out there

http://www.amazon.com/American-Wholefoods-Cuisine-Meatl... is a good, all around basic cookbook. The recipes aren't as complicated as the Moosewood restaurant recipes but I haven't found any bad ones. Some of them use eggs and/or dairy, but there is plenty of vegan stuff in it.

I can also recommend http://www.tentalents.net/bkschts.html It's a vegan, Seventh Day Adventist cookbook, again with good basic recipes for 3 meals a day, lots of bible verses but lots of recipes.

A lot of people swear by http://www.amazon.com/New-Laurels-Kitchen-Laurel-Robert... as their basic veggie cookbook, although I find a lot of the fare a bit bland for my taste.

Finally, everybody's favorite party book, known fondly as The Cholesterol Cookbook, is http://www.amazon.com/Vegetarian-Epicure-Anna-Thomas/dp... I love this book as the staining on every page can attest to, but it's not stuff I can eat every day.

On edit: also get yourself 2 good knives, one for chopping and one for paring. My faves are MAC knives, ultra high quality Japanese knives that fit my hands better than the traditional chef's knives.

[nemo137]

67. Which one?

Sundays at the Moosewood has recipes grouped around various ethnic cuisines - Eastern Europe, West Africa, the South, and a few more than escape me. They tend to be nice and hearty.

New Recipes from the Moosewood, FWIW, I like better than the original. More variety, and the recipes seems a little less dated.

The Vegetarian Epicure is also a classic, but also showing its age.

The Victory Garden Cookbook isn't vegetarian, but is a good resource for "this is how you cook x."

You could also see if your local CSA has a newsletter on their website, even if you don't have a share. They often do a vegetable a week. Really, the important thing, more than recipes, is being able to go "I have greens, I can do x with them" or "oh, yay, beets, that means y."

[queenjane]

123. The Joy of Vegan Baking, for those who love breads & sweets

I've tried many of the recipes, all of them yummy. I "pass" them off to non-vegans all the time, and so far no one's the wiser. When I became vegetarian and then vegan, I really missed baking cakes, cookies, etc (though my waistline didn't!), so this book is just a gift from the goodie gods. Be warned: vegan baking doesn't mean low-cal; I had to dial back a bit when my pants started getting tight.

[defendandprotect]

141. Well . . . here's some ideas . . .

Our dinners from the last few days -- and very hot here in NJ -- 90 today!

I made pancakes -- with blueberries -- Whole Foods/Whole Grain Pancake Mix
Sauteed about five macintoch apples/sliced with skin on -- you don't need to add anything to the pan --
the apples have enough juice to begin to soften.
I made a big pile of pancakes -- put apples on top -- sprinkle with cinnamon
and chill --
Sometimes we have a few heated before I chill the rest --

Small wedges of them are great for breakfast or lunch -- or dinner.


I made a capellinni pasta -- which also gets chilled --
This pasta cooks quickly -- like 7 minutes -- just add some olive oil to it immediately.
Then I add some big wedges of very ripe tomatoes -- or you can use grape tomatoes --
You can even saute them a bit if you wish.
And, lots of sweet onions -- sauteed -- it's the one ingredient you do have to cook!
I also get a big bag of fresh/washed spinach from my local greengrocer and put some of it on
the pasta while it cools -- and add lots more when I'm serving it.


Last night I made a huge pot of Chili --
I used about a pound of red kidney beans/organic --
and about a quarter pound of black beans/turtle - also organic --
Cook the beans about an hour --
I usually rinse them when I drain them --
Add a bit of olive oil to them and a can of Crushed Tomatoes --
I use Glen Muir/Organic Crushed tomatoes with Basil.
I also added some MOLASSES/organic which adds a sweetness to the chili/3 tablespoons.
And, a more than a few grains of red pepper flakes for some heat --
If you have some thyme, sprinkle some in --

I also sauteed two large Vadalia onions -- a whole lot of celery -- and a red pepper
in olive oil. Add that to the chili!

Final touch is to spoon in about two tablespoons of mustard --
I use Emeril's with horseradish!

That's it . . .

WATERMELON FOR DESERT!


So each day you have something to add - and each day make something new --

Tomorrow I'll pick up some Sesame Tofu from Whole Foods and that will be added.


PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS make a great sandwich -- wash, cut and slice them thin -- saute in o/o
Put on a crusty roll and you're set for lunch -- or add some red skin potato salad to it
and you're set for dinner!


Red skin potato salad -- wash and don't overcook them --
slice the potatoes and add olive oil/apple cider vinegar mix -- to taste.
I also usually add some thinly slice red onion -- and celery.
And if you have a carrot around, add some shavings of the carrot into it.


Leftovers helps you not have to cook too much each night -- especially when it's very hot.



PS: If you find that a day or two of beans is enough -- just freeze what you have left --
later in the week or so you will find them handy!

[truth2power]

181. "How to Cook Everything Vegetarian, by Mark Bittman...

Comprehensive. 900+ pages of recipes, plus everything you want to know about different kinds of grains, veggies etc. Well worth the price of $35.00. Or wait for a 40% off coupon from Borders.

[toadzilla]

186. My brother gave me one called "Skinny Bitch" for xmas

I know he thought he was being funny, but I've actually really enjoyed it. It's small but full off all kinds of great comfort foods. easy to make, very few ingredients that you have to go anywhere special to acquire.

It's its good for beginners and more seasoned veggies alike.

[karynnj]

231. Here are some -

Five cookbooks by Janne Lemlin:
Vegetarian pleasures
Main course vegetarian pleasures
Quick Vegetarian pleasures
simple vegetarian pleasures
Vegetarian classics

At one point my husband and three kids were all vegetarian and I think the first three books were the first books I grabbed to make a menu/grocery list each week. I still make many of them.

If you like mediterranean:
These are mostly Vegetarian
Invitation to Mediterranean Cooking Claudia Roden
Mediterranean Cooking, The healthful Way - Marlena Spieler

(If there is a food culture you really like - I can probably recommend a cookbook)

You might want to try Eating Well.com (food magazine out of VT) They have most of their recipes from years of publishing on line and it is searchable. (go to advanced recipe search - obviously not all vegetarian but there are many very good veggie recipes.

Good Luck

[Sparkly]

243. Vegetarian Epicure!!

(If those are still around.)

[JudyM]

321. Simple and good: Linda McCartney on Tour, Kripalu Cookbook, American Wholefoods Cuisine (Goldbeck)

These all have variety, recipes with lots of flavor and simple instructions.

I've been a veg for about 20 years and keep finding new things to love. My 2 most recent:

Quinoa & bean-stuffed poblano peppers

Smoked sliced Tofurkey sandwich with sliced tomato, avocado and arugula. made this up and it is fantastic -- tastes like (but better than any) BLT!

[Warpy]

41. Most people don't make the transition overnight

and the best thing you can do for yourself is to get a really good cookbook so that you don't fall into the trap of being a junk food vegetarian.

There are a lot more convenience foods out there than there were when I made the switch in the late 60s, and that's a help during the transition period, but the way to maintain an optimum diet is to cook it yourself.

I go for long periods of time without fish, and it looks like those times are going to become even longer than that as the oceans are slowly poisoned.

I'll miss the fish oil, but that's it.

[undeterred]

52. I've been in transition for a while.

I've also given up junk food. I used to think I couldn't be a vegetarian because, frankly, there aren't a lot of vegetables that I love and there are some that I can't stand. But when I thought about it I realized there are 8 that I like enough to eat regularly. That's enough for a start. And I like them even better if I cook them in a good recipe.

I knew an Indian woman who was a Jain, and therefore ate a vegan diet. She told me that she cooked something different every night- she really knew how to use spices to make delicious food.

[Codeine]

42. Hell yeah!

Feels good, don't it?

[Canuckistanian]

47. Good

More meat for me.

[JitterbugPerfume]

49. I am not a vegetarians but

I don't eat beef or pork . A small baked chicken will last me for days on end. I try to have at least one meatless day a week.

I will never give up my fresh farm eggs and cheese !

I admire vegetarians !

[eowyn_of_rohan]

51. I am well on my way too

I stopped eating red meat last year. Now I can't bring myself to eat a fish or a shrimp either...

[Lone_Star_Dem]

53. I did it about five years ago and I feel so much better.

Both on a physical level and a personal level. I hope your experience is as great as mine has been.

[undeterred]

95. It does feel good.

I've lost 10 lbs in the last 6 weeks or so and I have more energy.

[katanalori]

54. some fave quotes...........

"If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian". ~Paul McCartney

"Animals are my friends... and I don't eat my friends". ~George Bernard Shaw

"We all love animals. Why do we call some "pets" and others "dinner?" ~k.d. lang

[defendandprotect]

140. Nice reminders -- thank you!

And Ghandi's ...

"Violence begins at the end of your fork" --

[nankerphelge]

263. And...

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”
- Gandhi

[skipos]

57. I have been a vegetarian more than half of my life. It is pretty easy for me.

The 1st year was hard, but now I find the smell of meat disgusting. There are so many great food items for vegetarians now too.

[HughMoran]

59. I have to a great extent for pragmatic reasons

gout.

[Phoonzang]

60. No. Never. nt

[Caretha]

61. IMHO

that is a very easy thing to do. I have a hard time understanding people who think they can only have a meal if there is a slab of meat on the plate.

[undeterred]

65. My generation grew up with the "four basic food groups"

being taught to us in school. My mom cooked a meal every night that included meat and vegetables. That was considered the healthy way to eat. If you look at the menu in most restaurants, most of them still consider meat the cornerstone of the meal and have only a few vegetarian choices.

So, its a lot easier if you're cooking than if you are eating out a lot.

[Caretha]

71. I eat out seldom

but enjoy it when ever I do. I just make a decision before what I want, where it is best prepared to my personal satisfaction, and go from there. It is a life style choice in the long run. All I can tell you is I enjoy eating, dining and discovering what is out there to eat. I never seem to be out of choices.

[handmade34]

88. a good slow cooker

(and/or rice cooker) can be a very good friend.

hints:
whole grains with veggies and spices (my favorite is quinoa)
beans
lots of fresh veggies and fruits
curries
soups
go light on the packaged processed "vegetarian" food
...eat as close to the source as possible.

I live on the road and rarely have trouble finding something good and healthy

-when desperate I order a side salad and baked potato at Wendys

Not eating meat is so beneficial in so many ways

[undeterred]

92. Thanks! I never even heard of Quinoa till this week.

Now I'll have to try it.

[glitch]

94. You must.

I love quinoa! They say it's not really a grain and my body agrees. Most grains cause me to slow down, quinoa gives me energy.

[Ignis]

307. But here's the real test: Do you know how to pronounce it?

[undeterred]

331. Keen-Wah

That's how the person who told me about it pronounced it.

[Ignis]

338. Aw, that's no fun. But yes, you're correct.

I had to go through the trial-by-fire at our local "more-organic-than-thou" grocery when I read about Quinoa and asked for it in the store, trying various (very wrong) pronunciations.

[K8-EEE]

106. In L.A. it's pretty easy

Restaurants that ONLY have meat choices, seem pretty lame.

[aikoaiko]

62. Good luck!!!!

I tried once and returned to my meat eating ways.

[bbinacan]

66. When I see a post like this

I immediately want a steak cooked rare, with steamed oysters as an appetizer. Wait, I had that for supper.

[undeterred]

69. I hope those oysters didn't come from the GOM.

[bbinacan]

72. They didn't taste oily. n/t

[jobycom]

101. Why? I mean, I'd really like to understand that.

I'm a liberal, vegetarian, atheist, open-minded person who is on the wrong side of popular conventions almost every time. I'm not odd or unusual, and can pass for normal easily. When I tell people I'm a liberal, I get some huffing and puffing about it, but not much--most people don't like to argue with someone who knows what they are talking about. I tell them I'm an atheist, and some of them are shocked, but wind up saying something concilliatory, like "I can't agree with you, but I respect your right..."

But I tell them I'm vegetarian, and they react like you. "WHat's wrong with you? That's immoral! (usually there's some cliche about how many bunnies farming kills or how vegetables scream when you boil them)." Then they go out of their way to brag about how much meat they've eaten that day, how much they love to eat animals (People for Eating Tasty Animals ALWAYS gets mentioned), and how superior they are for it.

I really don't get it. I get you not wanting to give up meat--that's fine, not everyone could do it if they wanted to--but I don't get the need to taunt and boast and all that.

Seriously, what about a post of someone claiming they became vegetarian makes you want to attack them like that?

[flvegan]

103. I really look forward to the answer.

But...I just don't think you're going to get it.

[jobycom]

105. Might get an answer.

Won't get the answer, but might get an answer.

[Brickbat]

135. Why is a post about what someone's in the mood to eat in response to a post about what someone else

is going to eat considered an attack?

[jobycom]

142. Uh-huh.

You're not stupid enough to have missed the intent.

[Brickbat]

144. Well, you certainly got a lot more out of it than I did, that's true.

You saw "What's wrong with you? That's immoral! Farming kills bunnies and vegetables scream when you boil them! Brag taunt boast! And I'm superior!" and considered it an attack when it was pretty much just the meat-eating version of what the OP said.

But who knows, maybe I am stupid enough to have missed the intent.

[jobycom]

145. Nah, you aren't. nt

[uppityperson]

229. When I see a post like this, I want to eat...

what the poster is talking about (what a GOOD person you are!)

not what the poster is talking about ("they react like you. "WHat's wrong with you? That's immoral! (usually there's some cliche about how many bunnies farming kills or how vegetables scream when you boil them)." Then they go out of their way to brag about how much meat they've eaten that day, how much they love to eat animals (People for Eating Tasty Animals ALWAYS gets mentioned), and how superior they are for it.")

Good grief.

[K8-EEE]

234. I think it makes people think about what THEY are eating and

Us Murkins like to get our meat in little styrofoam containers at the market and not think about the factory farms etc.....no fair interfering with our mindless eating! Thus the hostility. I admire mindful eaters and consumers, vegetarian or no....

[opiate69]

276. ...

I really don't get it. I get you wanting to give up meat--that's fine, not everyone could do it if they wanted to--but I don't get the need to taunt and boast and all that.

Fixed it for ya

[jobycom]

278. I'm completely confused.

Fixed what?

[opiate69]

285. Who started this thread, a meat-eater or a vegetarian??

[jobycom]

287. If you think that explains something, you overestimate me.

I have no idea what you "fixed," and I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I guess asking you to just say it would be wrong, somehow?

[Ignis]

329. Psst! The Eagle flies at midnight.

[opiate69]

341. lemme see if I can elucidate...

I find it ironic that people are accusing meat-eaters of taunting and boasting about their diet choices, in reply to a thread that originates with a vegetarian boasting about his/her diet choices. Honestly, as a meat eater, I could give a flying fuck if someone decides, for whatever reason, to "go vegetarian". In fact the only time it would have the slightest bearing on my life would be if I was cooking for that person, and in that case I would make every reasonable accommodation. But when someone posts a "look-at-me-I'm-so-damned-much-hipper-than-thou-because-I-decided-to-stop-eating-meat-and-you-should-too" rant, I find it hard to fault those who would greet said rant in less-than psychophantic terms.

[Ignis]

346. Where was the "boasting" in the OP? Where was the "rant?"

Is there just the teensiest-tiniest little chance that you're reading something into the OP that wasn't intended, because you don't like vegetarians/vegetarianism?

[LanternWaste]

117. That's very clever.

That's very clever. I've never read a post about how delicious the soon-to-be eaten meat dinner will be with regards to posts dealing with vegetarianism before.

Very, very clever. And original too.

[fascisthunter]

205. does this post threaten your way of living or you pov?

you seemed annoyed... I eat meat too, but why post what you did?

[G_j]

68. If the ecocide in the Gulf spurred everyone to make just one change

in their life for the benefit of the environment, it would make a big difference. Thank you for taking your role as a human being seriously!

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[undeterred]

74. I would kick your ass for saying that if I hadn't also become a pacifist.

[Hawkowl]

79. I think you're talking to yourself in a mirror.

The only sanctimonious a..aycaramba! around here appears to be the belligerent meat eaters who seem to be compensating for extremely small penises.

The op expresses a heartfelt empathy towards living creatures everywhere and you mock him. Perhaps you would feel more comfortable in the rethuglican party.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[handmade34]

91. nonsense

this is just as stupid as Michelle Bachmann claiming that carbon dioxide is natural and we don't need climate bills...

[jobycom]

102. Hunh. You not only identified sanctimoniousness, but gave us a perfect example of it.

Impressive.

[K8-EEE]

108. maybe all the junk and hormones in the meat you're eating

Is making you behave this way to somebody who was perfectly polite in their post.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tailormyst]

127. What you are doing is no better

There is no reason omnivores and vegetarians should be at odds or should be treating one another with such disrespect. We could all do better in how we live in regards to the planet and to our local communitites.

The thing is not whether you eat meat or do not, the bigger issue is where you obtain the food you eat.

[LanternWaste]

133. You appear to have a somewhat low opinion....

"and trying to make them feel guilty. .."

You appear to have a somewhat low opinion of yourself if you believe that a person can "make" you feel an emotion rather than simply allowing/denying yourself to feel something.

(You use the word "sanctimonious", yet I see no evidence of that in the OP; your own post on the other hand...

[Imajika]

138. Yup, you got that right...

Somewhere in those phases will be the part where he/she may start claiming that humans are really herbivores rather than omnivores. You see, it isn't good enough for many vegetarians to just do what they think is healthy and right, no no, they often turn science on its head and start making silly claims that this is the ONLY decent lifestyle because humans weren't really meant to eat meat. They go from doing something they want to do, to trying to force you to do something they want you to do - much like the health nazi's always wanting to get their nose into our business. The extent to which a vegetarian gets obnoxious about this is usually based on how hard it is for them to stay away from meat themselves (thought they won't usually admit it till after they've left vegetarianism). The harder it is, the more they obsess over their new lifestyle change and spend endless hours watching pro-vegetarian videos about the evil meat industry (aka Big Meat).

Hilariously, I just had a coworker whom was truly preachy about his whole vegetarian thing. He couldn't even split a pizza with any meat product on the other half because the ham, pepperoni or sausage grease might leak over to his side. Anyway, after being insufferable for about a year and yet suffering various digestive and abdominal issues the whole time, his doctors told him during one of his trips to the hospital for intestinal pain to cease the whole vegetarianism thing immediately because it was not healthy for someone with his conditions. The next day the guy was eating meat and had completely abandoned all the "it is immoral to eat animals" stuff. Poof. All the sermons about how wrong it was vanished as soon as he thought it was better for him to eat meat for his own health.

[jobycom]

146. I knew a guy

who murdered his whole family with a sledgehammer. Because of that, I've learned all I need to know about sledgehammers.

[Ignis]

175. I knew an Irish guy who drank a lot.

So they all do, right?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

179. Would you eat a pizza that was cook with dog shit on half of it?

That's how I feel about eating meat. It's offensive to me. I have to look away when I walk past the dead animal section in the grocery store.

I have never heard such bullshit such as a doctor telling someone that eating dead animals would cure intestinal pain. I've been a strict vegetarian for 36 years and doctors are impressed with me.

[Ignis]

214. Of course not, that would be "sanctimonious," right?

Right?

Well, of course not, but it's difficult for some to see the world through another person's perspective.

[Bettie]

303. So, you don't have any friends who eat meat?

I can't imagine I'd be very happy sharing a meal with someone who thought that I was eating "dog shit".

Honestly, I cook vegetarian food, I cook meaty food...and everywhere in between. Our family meals go in both directions depending on my mood and what I have on hand or in the garden.

I try not to judge what others choose, though my few vegan friends are very hard for me to cook for, since I use a lot of dairy products. Still, I make the effort to make sure that everyone at my table has a good dining experience.

[Ignis]

308. Who cares what they think? The important point was food boundaries.

I don't care if you eat dog shit, I just don't want the savory juices therefrom to mingle with my half of the pizza.

Most vegetarians feel the same, even if they might pick less confrontational analogies.

[Maru Kitteh]

382. Exactly! My MIL told us she was making a veggie casserole for Thanksgiving one year

in addition to the turkey and all the usual stuff. We told her "Don't worry about it! We'll be happy to bring a couple of nice veggie pies to share with everyone." - but she insisted. We should have known better.

Her "veggie" casserole had gigantic chunks of turkey flesh in it.

So there sat Mr. Kitteh and I with plates of slightly aged supermarket celery and carrots and some crackers. She asked us why we weren't having the casserole and we were like - "it uhhhhhhh it has turkey in it....." She says: "Can't you just pick it out????"

I asked her if I murdered her cat and put it in a delicious casserole if she would eat it after picking out the pieces of her dead pet.

Of course she was horrified. I explained to her that this was how we feel about any kind of meat in our food.

We've never had to deal with that issue again.

[The Straight Story]

78. Your Body, Your choice. If you are happy with it then I am happy for you (nt)

[jobycom]

152. See? See how it easy it is to show class while still expressing disagreement?

That's why I like you. More people acted like you, this would be a better world.

[Ignis]

155. +1. It's not hard to avoid being an asshole.

[jobycom]

160. "It ain't that harder to do what's right, it's just maybe not as much fun."

My favorite line from a Ray Wiley Hubbard song.

[Ignis]

161. Nice one, thanks. I hadn't heard that quote.

[jobycom]

165. Oh, you have to hear the whole song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HS5bGf6Pqw

(Haven't watched the video, so apologies if it's offensive or anything).

[Ignis]

340. Hey, Jobycom, I finally heard the whole song.

It kicks ass. Thanks for the link.

I like the blues, but I've never really listened to much Hubbard because he's always been presented to me as country. Thanks for a little horizon-broadening.

[Hawkowl]

82. Good for you!

Been vegetarian for 15 years and became one for similar reasons. I still get people who occasionally try and tell me that I don't get enough protein. I laugh and say look at me! I'm over 200 pounds and can lift a small car (slight exaggeration).

It's both healthier and it makes you feel better!

[petersjo02]

83. Good for you!

I never liked meat very much. After a heart attack in 1993 at age 51, I swore off it for good. Welcome to the club!

[handmade34]

84. a hearty congratulations!

[marmar]

86. I'm trying hard......

It's a struggle but I'm going to get there.

[socialist_n_TN]

87. I haven't eaten beef, pork or chicken for 12 years

I eat seafood 3 meals a week and maybe once a month substitute one of the seafood meals for turkey. I FEEL a lot better, eat all I want, and have NO weight problem. Of course, I also exercise 3 or 4 days a week too and don't drink alcohol.

And lest anybody thinks I'm snooty about being so healthy, I still smoke cigars regularly. A person without a vice is not real trustworthy IMO.

[undeterred]

97. My old vice was a Turtle Sundae at the local fast food place...

I looked it up and found out it has 985 calories and 40g of fat.

[socialist_n_TN]

143. Now, THAT'S a vice!!!!!!!

[donheld]

89. No, Thank you

[glitch]

93. As a longtime vegetarian (except for eggs and occasionally fish) I have one recommendation to you

eat more vegetables and less grains for your own health. Starches can be hard on some systems (not all, but still don't over do the bread and rice and soak your legumes a long time).
Keep it varied! And welcome

[undeterred]

96. Thank you!

[Mendocino]

99. Vegan for about 1 1/2 years,

before that what I call step down, less red meat, no red meat, just fish, no dairy...etc.

I find it easier and easier as time goes on. I can't imagine reverting. What I found the toughest was being called a hypocrite for cutting out some things, then being called a zealot for cutting out all.

Good luck and good eats.

[ima_sinnic]

98. congratulations! try Morningstar Farms Spicy Black Bean Burgers

in the frozen food section. 4 g fat (compared with about 65 g fat in regular "hamburgers").

I'm mostly vegetarian, eating occasional Subway sandwiches with meat, but eat mostly lentils, cheese, salmon, and those Spicy Black Bean Burgers (with hot salsa--yum!)

[K8-EEE]

107. Those are delicious, as is the Boca fake spicy chicken

Those spicy "Chick'N" patties are delish on a sourdough roll with avocado!

[ima_sinnic]

113. Thanks for the tip! Will have to try those (nt)

[Brickbat]

132. A quarter of your daily sodium intake in one serving can make pretty much anything taste yummy,

really, when it comes down to it.

[K8-EEE]

147. Well why shouldn't you eat a quarter of your salt intake in a meal?

Or even a third of your salt intake? It's not like most people eat salt-less meat either....blech!

[Brickbat]

168. Well, I don't think people eat those plain, or alone.

And I never salt my burgers.

[K8-EEE]

191. Well, I don't think 'most people" eat unsalted burgers!

I think most people eat hamburgers with salt, AND salty condiments, AND salty cheese AND if they are ordering them out the "millions served" style, salty french fries and soda!

I eat the boca with fresh lettuce, tomato, avocado on a sourdough roll it's not an unreasonably salty meal.

[Brickbat]

130. Regular ground beef has about 15 g of fat per same-size serving, not 65 g.

Of course, if you use 95 percent lean ground beef, you get 5 g of fat in a 4 oz. serving.

[ima_sinnic]

196. oops, it is the serving that weighs 65 or 67 g, not the fat content

my bad

[pecwae]

109. You'll never regret it.

I gave up flesh about 16 years ago for the same reason. I'm going to try vegan again soon.

[Madam Mossfern]

111. I'm an on again-off again vegetarian

I was a vegetarian until I was pregnant with my first child and had incredible cravings for chili for breakfast. That was 32 years ago. I felt horrible when I fed my baby his first "screams" but wasn't sure how to raise him as a healthy vegetarian. There is so much more information about raising vegetarian children now.

About ten years later I again became a vegetarian, but suffered a very severe heart attack that almost killed me at 46 years old. After I recovered, I started eating meat- I thought "what the hell." I've been on again, off again since then. My problem is that my sons and my husband love meat and working full time and having other obligations makes it pretty damn hard to prepare separate meals for everyone. I'm considering going back though because I just feel 'icky' lately even though we try to eat only free range meat.

There's a lot more product out there now and I absolutely love Boca Burgers. I guess the guys will just have to fend for themselves. At this point I can give up flesh, but not dairy or eggs.

[pecwae]

114. It can really be

a challenge having to cook meals for everyone to enjoy. Sounds like you're doing taking the change in the manner best suited for you and that's the way to do it. And you don't have to tell me how pregnancy makes for some mad cravings!!

I'm with you on the Boca Burgers. Quron makes a pretty good roast, but Tofurky tastes better. I heard Tofurky will be coming out with chicken flavor as well.

Best of luck on getting where you want to be.

[Jeanette in FL]

112. Congrats, welcome to the club

Been a vegetarian since 1989. It is easier than ever nowadays. If you have to eat at a restaurant, most have veggie entrees. Here is a great link for that: http://www.happycow.net/browse.html

I don't eat alot of those fake meat items too salty for my taste.

[bergie321]

173. Thanks

I just found out that there is a vegetarian friendly lunch spot right next to my work that I always thought was just a coffee shop.

[closeupready]

115. I tried to years ago, but found I get anemic without meat. So

I try to compromise and eat less, and when I do, I need to know that the animals were raised humanely and cleanly (or caught wild), and killed without making them suffer.

[rainbow4321]

116. Congrats! I've been meat free for 6 months

And I haven't had a meat craving yet. Whole Food stores are a life saver..tons of meatless options.
People have been telling me that I looked like I lost weight since I started, I finally went and got a scale this weekend..turns out I've lost 15 pounds since becoming a vegetarian. Haven't been to a fast food place in 6 months so that has prob helped.

[Tailormyst]

118. No- I won't join you in becoming a vegetarian.

But I am glad for you that you are making changes in your life that you feel benefit both yourself and the planet.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

119. Congratulations!

And thank you for recognizing the environmental apects of going veg! So many who espouse envirmentalism have a very serious blind spot when it comes to the impact of meat on the planet.

[handmade34]

148. well said

too many people have a "...serious blind spot when it comes to the impact of meat on the planet" I am amazed at the number of people that continue to vehemently defend and justify their continued meat consumption when we know full well the harm done by factory farming of animals... excessive use of natural resources, pollution, soil depletion, etc.

I understand some meat consumption, especially if it is local and organically raised, but to defend what has become exploitive and unhealthy is unreasonable.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

297. Yup.

To scream about overpopulation or fossil fuel use then squeal like a baby about "food Nazis" trying to take away their burgers -- I mean really now.

[Tom Rinaldo]

120. Been one for about 35 years, but the first day is the one that matters most

Making the decision. I understand your reasoning. In a constant small way, it empowers me also. It is something I can do to make this world a little kinder and more sustainable. Congratulations on taking this step.

[Tailormyst]

122. Here is a link for both omnivores and vegetarians

If where your food comes from and how it is produced is important to you, you might find this site interesting. There are many ways to make small changes in your life that are better for ourselves, our communities and our planet.

[Ignis]

156. No link posted. (nt)

[Tailormyst]

159. oopsie! (red-faced) thank you for pointing that out

http://www.localharvest.org/csa /

and

http://www.eatwild.com/

[Ignis]

162. Interesting stuff, thanks.

(And don't sweat the oopsie: I've done it more times than I can count without removing clothing. )

[miscsoc]

124. Did you watch that Paul McCartney film?

I did, it makes sense. I think I might just give up meat, there's no nutritional point to it these days. I'm not against meat eating per se, if there's some necessity, but I guess it's childish to keep on eating it just because it tastes good when it's perfectly possibly to live on plants alone.

Mind you I could do with a bacon sarnie right now...

[a la izquierda]

125. Right on.

I've been meat free for 11 years.

[adigal]

128. I gave up mammals, I will work on animal free recipes

this summer, when I have more time. I am not creative enough to plan 21 meals a week without chicken or turkey. But I am working on it.

[dipsydoodle]

129. I assume you mean herbivore

.

[negativenihil]

134. Awesome! More meat for me! n/t

[UndertheOcean]

136. Congratulations on acting on your empathy ! Been a Veggie head for 1.5 years now ,

best decision I ever made.

[defendandprotect]

137. Congratulations . . . nature is suffering, the planet is suffering ... going veggie will help --

[avaistheone1]

149. The planet thanks you

and so will your body.

Dr Oz recommends no more than 1 meat meal a week.

[AlbertCat]

177. Dr Oz recommends no more than 1 meat meal a week.

This seems to be more like the diet we were intended by nature to eat. Eating TOO much meat can be bad. But being a technical vegetarian is not necessarily healthier than a moderate meat diet. Eat a variety of things in moderation and one will most likely be OK.


Remember though, if your reason for going veggie is to not participate in the killing of animals, don't wear any leather! And be sure to thank meat eaters or at least milk drinkers for all that manure compost that keeps your veggies fat and plump!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

364. I thank my two rabbits --

for all the poop they "donate" to my garden. I've never seen finer weeds than I have in my yard after four years of bunny poop.!

[Dappleganger]

150. congrats and good luck!

I've done it off and on over the years and still follow the practice of eating less meat for a better world.

[CrispyQ]

151. Congratulations on a compassionate & environmentally sound decision.

I'm perplexed how so many can feel such compassion for oil soaked birds, turtles & dolphins, but none for the billions of barn yard animals who spend their lives in horrid, inhumane conditions & die brutal, terrifying deaths.

On a lighter note, please join other DU veggies here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... There is a recipe thread pinned to the top that will have you salivating!

[jobycom]

153. Good choice. Welcome aboard. It generally takes some type of conversion experience

for people to go that route. It's hard to just stop eating meat just to send a message or make a political statement. There usually has to be a personal element to the choice, something that makes you not only want to be vegetarian but makes you want to stop eating meat. Not everyone will have that experience or desire, though.

This is just to you and other veggies, not meant to imply anything to those who aren't, but you'll be surprised at the way you see animals now. It's like, you'll suddenly realize there was a layer of distance--maybe guilt, maybe just a necessary detachment--over the way you viewed them. They were objects, and now that you don't eat them, you're more likely to see them as beings. Some people go to the extreme with that--like PETA with their absolute equation of an animal and a human life--but even those who don't still have some reaction. It makes being vegetarian less strenuous, because you'll realize you just don't think of meat as food anymore.

Just my random comments and encouragement.

[Ignis]

154. Congrats, and don't let the bastards get you down.

[IrishEyes]

157. Good for you

I think you're a vegetarian when you decide that you are one. I remember when I became a vegetarian. It wasn't a very difficult change. I felt better and I lost weight. I would recommend that you buy a good vegetarian cookbook. Good luck to you.

[Maine-ah]

158. congrats to you!

I'm not a veggie, but if they could come up with some substitutes that had the taste and texture of lobster and fillet mignon I could probably do it

[Unvanguard]

Duplicate. n/t

[Unvanguard]

163. Vegan here. Welcome!

I have lots of difficulty eating, but only because I'm ridiculously picky... and I was guilted into it unprepared.

[JDPriestly]

164. Who would feed a pig if the pig were not destined to be sold for food

or at least eaten at some point? And how many cows would we have if we did not eat beef or use milk products?

We used to have a lot more horses than we do now. Horses are no longer so useful. They are just used for sport. And now we have very few horses.

So, animal lovers, remember, we will probably have a lot fewer of certain types of animals if we do not breed them for meat.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

183. Horses are not just used for sport here.

Horses are still used on ranches. Horses are still very useful and there are millions of horses in the US, not 'very few'. Your whole argument about having fewer animals doesn't make sense.

[JDPriestly]

290. But people used to have teams of horses for transportation.

We don't have nearly the number of horses that we had in my mother's childhood.

And that has not been so long ago. I live in, of all places, L.A., and I think I have an old hitching post in my yard. I'm not 100% sure that is what it is, but it sure looks like the ones my grandfather had on his farm and that I used to see in small towns in Iowa. Remnants of a day when people rode horses to the market and to the courthouse.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

327. We operate a ranch

I bet that was a hitching post in your yard...cool.

My husband's grandfather homesteaded part of our ranch (160 acres) in the late 1880's but the acreage has increased a lot over the years. My husbands father's first job was unhitching the team after school. We still use horses around here because their the only form of transportation that can handle the terrain.

I believe the way we are going that horses will become more widely used again

My husbands grandfather wrote a book about his early experience here. He talks in detail about horses. He rode all day just to get the mail. There were no roads, or even fences, just trails. The Great Northern Railway hadn't come through here yet. He wrote about the herds of wild horses that he could hear as they galloped down the rocky bluffs at night to get water. We still live in the house that he built over a hundred years ago and I have a couple of mustangs from the BLM for sentimental reasons. My horse of choice is the Morgan because it's a real all purpose horse.

I was just saying that if more people become vegetarians there wouldn't be a pig or cow shortage. I'm a vegetarian and have cattle (long story).

[JDPriestly]

328. What do you do with your cattle?

My grandfather kept horses even though he didn't use them for his farm. Thanks to my experiences in childhood, I just love the smell of horses. I know that is crazy. It's some strange subconscious association.

My mother did not like horses, so I was allowed to sit on a horse as a very small child (I've got pictures), but I actually rode a horse until I was an adult. Horseriding is too expensive for me to take up as an adult.

Again, what do you with your cattle if you don't think they should be eaten?

[yewberry]

184. You do know that's part of the point, right?

Fewer animals means less land and water and fuel devoted to raising them for food. Also, fewer animals bred for a life of exploitation and commodification.

[toadzilla]

189. Do you have any idea how much pollution comes from large factory farms?

Fewer pigs, cows, and chickens in the world would be a wonderful thing for the environment.

[LanternWaste]

193. Dogs and cats are not "usefu". either...

Dogs and cats are not "useful" either...

[JDPriestly]

289. Dogs and cats are smaller, cuter, friendlier and cheaper to feed

than cows or horses. As for pigs, I hear they make good pets, but I have yet to meet a real person with a pet pig.

[jobycom]

286. Would governments allow us to breed if they didn't need soldiers?

[JDPriestly]

291. Good question, jobycom.

[Ignis]

323. Let's ask this man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

[county worker]

166. I have been a vegetarian since 1994.

Two things I think to keep in mind. Your being a vegetarian does not make you a better person compared to meat eaters and people don't appreciate vegetarian proselytizing.

Also, many people feel being a vegetarian is a poor choice and will let you know. I would not let what they say bother you. Just watch how your body reacts and learn from that. Don't pay attention to what others say.

[undeterred]

240. The only person whose opinion I care about is my doctors

but I have a feeling he will think I've done a good thing.

[dana_b]

169. Wonderful! Welcome!

It's not as scary or bad as some people seem to think. So many places offer vegetarian dishes, cookbooks and so forth that it's not hard to do. The cravings for meat (if you have them) will die down until the idea of eating meat makes you wince. My daughter just joined the club (yay!) so now I don't have to buy meat anymore. So much easier to cook and prepare meals when everyone in the house is in the same mindset.

[AlbertCat]

170. Its healthier

That remains to be seen.

But, go for it!

[Boudica the Lyoness]

171. I have been a vegetarian for 36 years.

I have eaten no animals, including our feathered friends or fish since September 1974.

I also wanted to stop eating meat for years before I finally stopped. I love being a vegetarian. It's one of the best feelings to have, knowing you don't eat the dead body of a once living creature.

Welcome.

[Zoonart]

172. Welcome

After reading the entire thread, I think I am correct in saying that, so far, I am the longest practicing vegetarian to respond. I have been a vegetarian for thirty six (36!) years and my family is astounded that i am still alive. LOL Some advice... about your family: Bring your own dish to the Thanksgiving party and for all of the holidays that you attend that center around a meal. I'm guessing that they will be approving but will feel stressed to provide an appropriate dish for you. My family was DISapproving and it is still an issue after all of these years. They have always thought that my choice is a judgement on their eating habits. I think it is best for you to just remove all of that from the equation by providing a tasty dish for yourself and anyone else who would like to partake. You have made a wonderful life choice and I congratulate you.

[handmade34]

188. welcome zoonart

and boy, do I understand what you are saying... I stopped eating almost all meat approx. 39 years ago but for awhile would occasionally eat meat if it was local and organic (especially raised by me). My family made fun of me and criticized me all the time. I think the most important thing for individuals is to be in touch with their own body and learn to know what it needs. Great idea to share about taking a dish or two to a gathering.

[yewberry]

190. Hi Zoonart!

36! Yikes!

I've had a similar response from my family. It's been 24 years for me, and my family *still* has an issue with my veg*nism.

[undeterred]

254. Thank you and welcome to DU!

I am really amazed at how many people are responding to this thread. My family will probably not believe me since I was a vegetable hater as a child!

[DesertFlower]

176. good for you. i've tried

several times. i don't eat cheese so i had a hard time getting enough protein. i now take a protein drink. it's called "problend 55". it comes in several flavors. i put it in the blender with ice and it tastes pretty good. gives 55 grams of protein.

good luck.

[Bryn]

178. Thumb Up!!!

Welcome to the club

[toadzilla]

180. yay! 11 years meat free here. I gave it up overnight and never looked back.

just try to stay away from too many pastas and breads. fresh fruits, veggies, beans, and nuts are where its at.

and I hope you like ethnic foods! Thai and Indian restaurants are saviors when your in locations that are less than abundant with healthy food options.

[meegbear]

182. I'm a level 7 vegan ...

I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

[uppityperson]

187. Nope, I eat local instead. Local meat, local veggies=less oil cost

Also it means less fertilizers and pesticides since I know where my food comes from and is raised. I buy a share of a steer, raise my own chickens and rabbits, have a garden and eat as local as possible.

It's healthier and ecologically sensible to do this. I find it is not so much "eat meat or not" that makes a difference but HOW food is raised and treated as well as how far it has to travel to get to you.

[Tailormyst]

208. Exactly!!!

I have changed the way I eat to this way also. Reading this board actually contributed to my decisions. I eat locally grown and as organic as possible. Planted a garden. This year I am buying my first half cow, half pig and am considering a half lamb. I also started canning, which is actually fun and really makes me feel like I have accomplished something.

[pundaint]

195. OK, now it's safe to watch Food Inc!

[Richlu]

197. Good work!

As a 36 year vegetarian, I congratulate you. I love all the support and suggestions you are getting from fellow DUers. It's cool!

Be confident that you will find your comfort zone. You just have to listen, research, and experiment to find what makes you feel healthy. Regarding protein, there is lots of protein from non-meat sources, and your protein needs may change as you age. I'm 58, and need a lot of protein right now, but I feel great if I have some organic soy milk every day.

Consider eating mostly organic. The absence of pesticides does amazing things for you energy and feeling of purity.

[Matariki]

198. Any particular reason you feel the need to publicly announce this?

[yewberry]

201. Any particular reason she shouldn't?

[Matariki]

202. I bought some new shirts yesterday.

[superduperfarleft]

204. Clearly her vegetarianism has a political component to it.

Your buying shirts does not, unless you were tying it into a story about consumerism, sweatshops, etc.

But clearly your concern isn't about non-political topics cluttering the forum, so I'll quit playing into your game.

[Matariki]

207. Actually, vegetarian threads tend to be flame bait

And DU has a vegetarian/animal rights forum where this sort of post wouldn't create flame wars.

The fact that the person feels the need to announce their dietary choices points to the fact that they likely believe it to be a superior choice. So of course people who don't share that belief are going to argue or get snarky.

[superduperfarleft]

210. So because the anti-veg*n crowd can't control themselves, they should be limited to one forum?

Should GLBT posters only post topics regarding GLBT issues in their forum, so we don't upset the bigots? Should posters concerned about poverty only post topics regarding poverty issues in their forum, so we don't upset the libertarian crowd here?

And since this thread was nearing 100 replies with only a couple of jerks here and there before you showed up, I truly appreciate your concern but I think it's unfounded.

edit: my bad, 200 replies.

[Ignis]

218. UNCLEAN! *rings bell* UNCLEAN!

[flvegan]

230. LOL!

"UP AGAINST THE WALL, VEGGIE!!!1"

[Ignis]

220. "tend to be," "feels the need," "superior"

That's the basis for your complaint about this OP? Really?

[LanternWaste]

252. Don't we all often believe the choices

Don't we all often believe the choices we make are superior to the alternative-- else why make that specific choice?

Is not that the positive end-result of making a choice?

[DatManFromNawlins]

380. Sure

But I find it quite funny that the first thing most vegetarians tell people after they've declared their gastronomical conversion is what kind of foods they should eat that are meat-like.

Personally, I don't find that there's really any moral component to the choice, and there are too many foods (being Cajun and having grown up on primarily Cajun/Creole/Italian/German cuisine) that there are absolutely no substitutes for and that I would miss.

When there's a suitable substitute for tasso, chicken liver, chicken gizards, and andouille... that can all stand up to the kind of cooking necessary to make the foods I'm used to, then I might give it a second look.

[LanternWaste]

251. I imagine many people are both happy and...

I imagine many people are both sincerely happy and proud when they make a life-altering decision they believe is better for either themselves or the environment (or both), and hope that others will, if not follow in their footsteps, at least join them in a moment of a subdued elation-- much like when marriages and anniversaries are announced, or the purchase of a new fuel-saving car is announced (or do you also ask why those events are publicly announced also?).

[undeterred]

257. Telling people that you're making a change

is one way of making sure you follow through on it.

Our choice of food does have an ecological and political dimension as well as a health impact... seems like it would be a good topic for discussion here.

[Matariki]

326. Okay, well good luck to you.

Don't forget to take your vitamin B-12

I ate vegan for a couple years and became very anemic. The optimal diet that seems to work for me is lots of vegetables, some grains and dairy and small amounts of fish and meat.

We're living in a very privileged country where we have the luxury of either consuming way more meat than is good for us or the luxury of making choices like being vegetarian.

[Jamastiene]

295. Well, since you asked....

I've been looking for more vegetable based meal recipes to cook for our 3 vegetable nights a week. My aunt doesn't want to go vegetarian, but I want to at least cut out so much meat consumption. So, we agreed to have more veggie based meals. So far, we are both enjoying the experiments. So, it's a plus/plus for our enjoyment.

I started on one day a week having vegetable night, then moved it up to two. Now, I am up to three and enjoying all the new recipes I am trying.

So, if for no other reason than I found a few good recipes and ideas in this thread, I'm glad the OP announced it.

[BrklynLiberal]

199. Congratulations...and make sure to check out the Vegetarian group here at DU

[Scout]

200. yippee skippee for you! n/t

[DissedByBush]

203. The downside

Humans are omnivores. We are supposed to eat meat. Simple fact.

So you have to be much more careful in your diet as a veggie in order to get the nutrients you need, especially the different kinds of protien.

Me, I just have a largely reduced-meat diet for health reasons (removing saturated fats from my diet, doctor's orders).

Eating lots of Indian food with the mainstays of eggplant and lentils helps keep a veggie diet interesting.

Can't stand tofu though. I'd rather eat rubber since it tastes better and has a better texture.

[Richlu]

211. Not sure about your "simple fact". It's usually more complex.

Just Google "eating meat causes cancer" and you'll see. Statistics and doctors, as well as propaganda. Dairy can cause problems too. It's not simple. I've learned to trust that people are finding their own way with diet, obviously with some mistakes along the way, i.e., obesity in the US.

[Codeine]

213. Humans have been just fine all over the world without meat.

I'm not going to condemn anyone for eating meat, but pretending it's a dietary need is just silly.

[Ignis]

216. ~1/3 of the Indian population is vegetarian.

That's just under 400,000,000 people in India alone who don't eat meat, yet are still alive.

That's an awful lot of data to dismiss with a broad claim such as "We are supposed to eat meat. Simple fact."

Personally, I've been a vegan for almost 20 years. Year after year, I get great test results at my physical exams. This is despite the fact that I'm a lazy cube-rat who loves junk food (well, any food, really ) and needs to be guilted into doing any more exercise than an evening stroll.

So, if you really believe the claim that I'm "supposed" to eat meat, how do you reconcile that fact against my diet and test results?

[DissedByBush]

245. Just look at your teeth

Herbivores have high flat molars that are meant to be ground down over a lifetime of grinding plant material. They usually have large incisors too, to cut for eating.

Carnivores have large canine teeth for grabbing flesh, smaller incisors mainly meant to hold rather than cut, and sharp, lower molars to tear down the flesh.

Omnivores, like us, are between the two.

By nature we are omnivores. The easiest way to get the nutrients we need is to eat as such.

I made no value judgment on vegetarianism.

Simple fact, if you are going to do it, your diet needs to compensate for the lack of easily-obtained proteins, minerals, etc., that you would get from the meat. I gave an example of my personal favorite meat replacements: eggplant and lentils.

I even cited Indian cuisine as a good example of a vegetarian diet, yet you seem to have the need to remind me that many Indians are vegetarian.

Duh. Did you think I cited Indian cuisine because they're all carnivores?

[Ignis]

247. OK, I'll play: Look at a panda's teeth. Now look a panda's diet.

Evolution is not a prison for omnivores. If we needed to eat meat, we wouldn't be omnivores, would we?

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but this argument was put to rest decades ago. Even the ADA now recognizes and supports vegetarian diets.

[DissedByBush]

334. Pandas are carnivores

Yes, carnivores, in the order Carnivora.

They partially adapted to a diet of bamboo. Their physiology isn't even very good for bamboo since they can't digest it well, and basically have to eat all day long in the wild in order to survive.

"Omnivore" doesn't mean either of the extremes is optimal.

Plants are optimal for herbivores, meat is optimal for carnivores. Both is optimal for omnivores.

Just because you *can* survive on vegetables doesn't mean your physiology is built for it.

[Ignis]

345. How can I put this gently?

The arguments and examples you are providing suggest that you are not well versed in the biological sciences--zoology in particular.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but if you do know more about zoology than you're letting on, you're not doing a clear job of presenting that fact. You're using zoological terminology in a non-scientific fashion in a scientific argument, and you're using it incorrectly to boot.

If you do understand the science, I don't understand why you're misapplying the terminology. If you don't understand the science, you should really do a little more research before you make sweeping statements like those in your post above. I say this not to be mean, but to ensure we're not wasting anyone's time.

---

Anyway...

Taxonomic classification at the order level is not universally indicative of the diet of the sub-orders and families therein. The order Carnivora includes everything on the dietary spectrum--from obligate carnivores like the great cats, through hypercarnivorous omnivores like the polar bear and hypocarnivorous omnivores like the black bear, to nearly 99% exclusive herbivores like the giant panda.

So the argument that the classification of a species (or family) into an order dictates its diet is simply flawed; just because the order name says "Carnivora," you cannot assume that every single species in that order is a "carnivore" and that their "optimal" diet is a hypercarnivorous one. A member of the mammalian order Carnivora is a carnivoran, not a carnivore. That's an important distinction.

Furthermore, classifying the diet of an entire species as non-"optimal" is ridiculously distanced from the most important dietary factor: environment. Natural selection shows us that species adapt and evolve to exploit environmental gaps; some factor(s) pushed the giant panda to adapt and exploit the glut of bamboo. That adaptation is no more or less "optimal" than the re-evolution of polar bears' teeth to accommodate a diet of marine mammals.

Finally, the family Ursidae is generally considered to be populated by omnivorous caniforms, not carnivorous ones. Assuming you understand (or will research) the term "obligate carnivore," you should quickly understand how you're misapplying the link between dentition and diet. Do you honestly think that any bear would starve if it lost its carnassials? We're not talking about feliforms here, we're talking about bears! This family is often presented (with raccoons and humans) as a great example of opportunistic omnivores, and their teeth tell the story.

But don't take my word for it: Look at a broad cross-section of Ursidae teeth--paying particular attention to the bunodont molars and the blunt carnassials. Then come back and tell me that bears are carnivores.

Hope that helps.

[DissedByBush]

348. I thought bears were omnivores

Not looking it up, that's what I thought they were.

I know teeth are not an absolute sense of diet, but they are a very good indicator.

The panda was used as an herbivore example with carnivore-like teeth. My response is that their teeth are more aligned to be carnivores. So is their digestive system, as they are not very good at extracting any nutrients out of the bamboo, necessitating almost constant eating.

With that, they were not a very good example to counter my point. In fact, they bolster my point -- a carnivore eating only plants is not very efficient.

[Ignis]

350. "a carnivore eating only plants is not very efficient"

Then. It. Would. Not. Be. A. Carnivore.



Look, if you didn't read my wall-of-text above, at least understand the following points:

1. Members of the order Carnivora are called "carnivorans," not carnivores. Not all carnivorans are carnivores.

2. Members of the family Ursidae (that's bears) are opportunistic omnivores, not obligate carnivores.

3. Carnivorous animals must eat meat as some portion of their diet. Omnivores can survive on a diet of both/either plants and/or animals.

4. Bears--just like humans--do not require to survive. We are omnivores.

Best of luck!

[DissedByBush]

358. So you think carnivore by action rather than by biology

Life would be much easier for pandas if they ate meat, because their biology is adapted to be carnivorous or omnivorous while they eat herbivorous. This is one reason they are running to extinction.

"4. Bears--just like humans--do not require to survive. We are omnivores."

Like I said way back in the beginning, we don't require them. BUT, if you are going to be a vegetarian, you have to be careful to replace the easily-obtained nutrients you would normally get from the meat part of your diet as an omnivore.

Omnivore doesn't mean you are adapted to eat either-or.

It means you are adapted to eat both, but you can get away with either-or.

[Ignis]

361. Think? No, I know. This is science, not aesthetics.

Anyone can do the research and come to the same conclusion:

"Carnivore" is not a taxonomic classification; it's one that describes a diet and/or feeding behavior.

Bears are omnivorous carnivorans.
Humans are omnivorous primates.
Neither requires meat to survive.

[DissedByBush]

362. Carnivore describes only behavior?

Interesting. So I could have fed my ferret a vegetarian diet and he would have been just fine, right?

"Neither requires meat to survive."

There's that "requires" again. I never said requires.

If you aren't going to eat meat, which is our natural physiology as omnivores, then you have to carefully select your foods to make up for what we require that is more easily available in animal products than in vegetables.

For example, for your calcium I hope you eat a LOT of collard greens, kale, broccoli and such. That is unless you eat foods processed with added calcium or take supplements. Of course many go vegetarian in part to get away from that kind of processed stuff in the first place.

I gave helpful advice, how to go vegetarian while staying healthy.

I think I violated some tenet of the vegan religion for even bringing up the nutrient issue.

[Ignis]

363. Don't be deliberately obtuse. Ferrets are obligate carnivores.

Any obligate carnivore fed a strictly herbivorous diet will sicken, weaken, and eventually die.

Humans, however, are not obligate carnivores.

Again, these are scientific terms, not opinions. If you don't understand what they mean, LOOK THEM UP!



But please do explain your comment regarding "the vegan religion." I'd like to think that it wasn't merely a vindictive, petty, spiteful personal attack, but hopes aren't high.

[DissedByBush]

368. You are starting to understand

Your body, not your behavior, decides what you should be eating.

Humans are omnivores. That means that according to nature they should be eating both.

Based on circumstance, many omnivores can angle towards one end or the other of the diet. As shown with the panda, that is not necessarily optimum.

If you have been raised with an omnivorous diet, you MUST be careful when switching to an herbivorous diet. This is simple, basic fact. You must find specific substitutes for those nutrients in animal products that you have been used to eating. Where one steak gave you a certain range of nutrients, you have to look up the range of plants that will now provide those nutrients.

Simply saying the truth apparently gets one in trouble around here by people who are so defensive about their vegan or vegetarian position that even a comment about a shortcoming brings a heap of scorn.

I have seen that nasty attitude before, mainly in religions. I even saw the "I'm vegan so I'm better than you" attitude show.

Thus the vegan religion.

[Ignis]

370. Don't conflate my impatience with scientific ignorance with religious fanaticism.

I don't believe I've displayed the "I'm vegan so I'm better than you" attitude you reference anywhere in this thread. If you feel I'm incorrect, please point out specifically where I've done so. But I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm almost never evangelical about others adopting a vegan diet.

But I think I've been (for me ) a model of patience and forbearance in light of your repeated displays of willful ignorance towards basic scientific concepts involving taxonomy, dentition, feeding behaviors, etc.

Look, if you want to say "I think meat tastes great," then say that. That's an aesthetic opinion, and thus I can say nothing to refute or disprove it. But when you say "Sol is a planet, not a star," that's a scientific argument, and it can be either proven or dis-proven based upon the available evidence.

[DissedByBush]

372. Read the thread

Veganism/vegetarianism is shown as the higher ideal, something to be congratulated over omnivores.

I am disgusted at the attitude of vegetarians who want to change reality. Vegetarianism is their un-natural choice, and they want to change definitions to make their choice the natural one. There are a LOT of them out there trying to push the lie that humans physiology isn't even geared to eat any meat! They have made their personal choice and want to change reality in order to convince others to join them.

Note I never said the choice was a bad one, yet you seem to keep thinking I did. Vegetarianism is just fine with me.

I even noted I myself am close to being a vegetarian, my meat intake being rather limited. Because of that I am careful to pick the most nutrient-providing meats with the least down-side (thus my preference for sashimi and rare intake of such things as steak), and more carefully select my vegetables to provide the rest.

[undeterred]

374. Arguing that something is 'natural'

on the basis of biology can lead to some pretty bigoted positions.

Human beings have a broad ability to choose - to choose what to eat, who to have sex with, whether or not to get tatoos, whether to cut their hair, what to wear, and so on. Arguments from nature have been made regarding all of the above.

[DissedByBush]

377. True, the word can be loaded

I am talking just nutrition per natural physiology, not a value judgment.

On the other hand, homosexuality is found in nature yet we have many people who say that's unnatural. Huh? Am I missing something here?

Conversely, we now know that murder to gain territory is found in nature, too, so "natural" is not necessarily a good thing either.

Most of what we do isn't in line with nature anyway, such as most of our health care, which extends our lives beyond what they would normally be.

I just wanted to let the poster know that you do have to be attentive to make sure you still get the needed nutrients, that's all. You can't suddenly drop meat without a specific corresponding increase in certain vegetarian foods to make up for it.

[Ignis]

386. I give up; you've moved from a position of ignorance to one of faith.

To summarize: Arguing that meat-eating is "natural" without an iota of scientific evidence--after having shown that you don't even understand the difference between a carnivore and a member of the order Carnivora--well, that sure sounds like a religious belief to me!



If you're ever interested in discussing biology outside the confines of your belief system, I'd be happy to continue our conversation. But if you're simply looking to push a "'Taint Natchurl!" agenda, I suggest you look at red meat consumption in the average American diet vs. the red meat consumption of our closest genetic relatives, the great apes...after you've finished your lunch of leaves and grubs, of course.

Good luck, and may Universe bless you with scientific curiosity.

[Ignis]

360. Correction to point #4 in my response:

4. Bears--just like humans--do not require meat to survive. We are omnivores.

[flvegan]

352. I disagree.

Omnivore is a funny term tossed about here. Cook your meat, do you? Which other meat eating omnivore cooks meat before eating it? Why or why not?

I'm an "omnivore" because I *can* eat meat (so long as it is cooked and processed for my delicate canines and digestive tract) but I'm an herbivore because my physiology is built for it.

[DissedByBush]

359. Not always cooked

I like tartare and sashimi.

You are an omnivore because your physiology is built to optimally run on both.

[flvegan]

366. Tartare.

Good example of the need to finely grind beef so that our meant-to-eat-meat teeth can handle the task.

Optimally? I don't think so.

[DissedByBush]

367. That's just because it's pleasing, and how you get the spices in

I can handle smoked jerky just fine, and it's a lot tougher than cooked meat.

On those rare occasions I do eat steak, I eat it rare. The cooking is for flavor, the uncooked interior is tender.

I much prefer tuna as sashimi to the cooked alternative. It melts in your mouth in comparison. It's also healthier.

We do a lot of things that aren't straight in line with nature, like cooking our food or being vegetarian. It doesn't mean those are necessarily bad things.

I kind of like that we're more intelligent than other animals and can do things differently.

[DatManFromNawlins]

381. Given that we've evolved to use tools

I don't really see how you're rebutting the argument you're replying to.

[flvegan]

222. (facepalm)

Simple fact, indeed.

[Robeson]

288. Beyond facepalm.

[LanternWaste]

255. Shouldn't we be more careful re: our diet regardless?

Shouldn't we be more careful re: our diet regardless? Ans you consider that a downside? Hoo-boy.

[AtheistCrusader]

206. Omnivore here, thanks for going vegetarian, more for me!

Just kidding. I respect your choice, and while I don't think eating meat is a bad thing, especially from the sources I get it from, I have reduced my intake of it.

We simply don't need as much as we typically consume. If you're packing on pounds, you're over-consuming something. Meat is a very dense energy source, so probably a good place to start when trimming things back.

[valerief]

209. I hate the idea of giving up eggs! I eat fish rarely, chicken and turkey regularly, and

beef and pork never. I can give it all up except eggs. They've been my favorite food since childhood.

But congrats to you!!!!

[undeterred]

244. Haven't become vegan yet

so I will still eat eggs and use them in cooking. I think I could learn to live without dairy, but I would need to learn how to cook and eat that way gradually.

[valerief]

301. I remember when being vegetarian meant eating no meat which includes eggs.

I wonder when the meaning changed.

[Arugula Latte]

219. I find meat disgusting.

And the process by which it becomes meat is even more disgusting.

[Codeine]

227. Oddly I still love meat,

though I haven't had it in forever. Meat tastes great. Meat has fantastic mouthfeel. Meat is the traditional building block of our cultural cuisine.

Still won't eat the shit.

[lurky]

223. Welcome! Do you feel the energy boost?

When I quit meat 5 years ago, I felt so much lighter. It was like the meat had been weighing me down and sapping my energy.

BTW, vegetarianism is totally sustainable. A lot of people will tell you that you need meat to develop muscle, do physical activity, and so on, but that is a complete myth.

Dietary advice:
My main suggestion would be to make sure to eat a wide variety of fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, beans, peas, etc. Actually, I think that's good advice for meat-eaters too.

Personally, I tend to crave protein, so I do eat the Tofurkey-type stuff (in moderation). For a new vegetarian, I feel like the mock-meats can really help you make the transition, so I wouldn't worry too much unless sodium is a big issue for you.

I don't usually like tofu, unless it's fried and drenched in sauce, so I don't end up eating it that much. Plus, too much soy is usually a bad idea.

I do love seitan and make my own. It's easy, delicious, and soy-free. And you can make like 2 pounds of the stuff for about $7 worth of ingredients. There is a great recipe for it in the "Vegan With a Vengeance" cookbook.

Cheers!

[gauguin57]

225. Welcome, friend. You'll feel better without all that meat weighing you down.

And though you'll still feel lousy when you see livestock being mistreated, you'll feel less complicit.

[MyNameGoesHere]

228. Congrats

I recently did the same, and did it without feeling superior to anyone.

[DinahMoeHum]

233. Just be careful not to get too self-righteous about it. . .

it is not for everybody, and oftentimes what we eat or do not eat is not necessarily a choice.

For myself, while I've eaten less meat over the years (and get it from more local, non-corporate-factory sources); due to a recent bout of diverticulitis (colon)(from which I've recovered, thank you), I am precluded from eating hard nuts and hard seeds. IOW, while I cannot have the hard nuts and seeds themselves (or their ground meals), I can have smooth creamy nut butters and oils and tahini.

Ironically, nuts and seeds are foods that are supposed to be good for us; and they are prevalent in many vegetarian and vegan dishes. That means when I dine vegetarian (as opposed to cooking vegetarian for myself), I have to watch and question the ingredients like a hawk.

An old nursery rhyme is my philosophy regarding the issue of meat vs. non-meat: "Jack Sprat could eat no fat, his wife could eat no lean..."

Just my 2 cents.

[K8-EEE]

235. From this thread it's obvious that some people will accuse you of self-righteousness

No matter how positive / polite you are on the subject

[DinahMoeHum]

238. Well. . .

fuck 'em. I'm not a label.

[yewberry]

237. Must...resist...posting..."I have become a veterinarian"...OP...

nnnnngh...

Maybe I should go sit in the Lounge for a while.

[Beringia]

241. that is great for the animals

that you became a vegetarian. I don't know why there needs to be more reason, than it stops suffering. We all know how awful suffering is and it is the same for the animals.

[Prana69]

242. Congratulations! That's awesome!

As a vegetarian of 14 years, let me say welcome to the club. Vegetarianism is not such an "alternative lifestyle" anymore. There are millions of us around the world, and our number is growing. It is quite easy to live as a vegetarian with plenty of nutritious and ethical foods available. Now you can live healthy in body AND mind.

Soon you will see those people eat meat and marvel that they think YOU are the one who is "strange"! (With what I have seen and what I know about the meat industry, I just don't understand how people do it. Meat really is murder).

Good on you for taking this important step.

P69

[Prana69]

248. Plant based OMEGA-3 - important!!

Congrats again undeterred. Sooner or later someone will question how / where you are getting Omega-3 from. It is imporant for maintaining healthy brain function, especially memory. The most common source is oily fish, obviously not an option for vegetarians like us.

Plant sourced Omega-3 can be found in "flaxseed oil" and you can usually buy it in bottles from your local super-market, vegetarian specialist store or health food shop.

Just drop a teaspoon full in your breakfast cereal each day or make a fruit smoothie.

David

[ThomWV]

249. You can not become a vegetarian, you can act like one, but's that about it.

You are an omnivore, live with it or act like something you are not. Your choice. It is as natural for you to eat meat as it is to breath air, and to deny yourself a full diet is your choice, but recognize how absurd it is to think that it to consciously eat in an unnatural way will somehow make you more healthy.

[undeterred]

258. Eating a vegetarian diet is unnatural?

What would you call a diet loaded with fat, high fructose corn syrup, and salt? Seems like thats a lot less natural to me.

[Ignis]

259. "Vegetarian" relates to dietary choice, not biological restrictions.

The OP is not claiming to be an herbivore, as I'm sure you know.

Also, you should probably do some research on vegetarian diets from studies published after 1950.
Here's an example:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/0907011030...
http://www.eatright.org/Media/content.aspx?id=1233&term...

[handmade34]

267. I believe you are incorrect

someone who chooses to not eat meat is defintely a vegetarian and does become a vegetarian when they make that decision. It is very rare that anyone can or does live "naturally" anymore. What pray tell, is a full natural diet anymore?? We all make choices and scientific studies, many personal stories and other information informs us that we can be very healthy while not eating meat. Almost all of the food available to the majority of people (excluding organic homesteaders and gardeners) is hyper processed, full of unnatural chemicals and distorted in some way. I have been a vegetarian for the most of 39 years and I am as healthy as the next guy.

[jobycom]

281. You don't seem to understand what "omnivore" means.

"Omnivore" doesn't mean a creature has to live on a combination of meat and non-meat diets. It means the opposite--our bodies can survive eating only meat or only vegetables. Most animals in the wild aren't completely herbivore or carnivore. The most carnivorous animals eat plants, and there are few herbivores that don't eat animals at times. Even tortoises, which are completely herbivores, will live off of meat for as long as that's their only supply. The terms herbivore and carnivore simply mean that an animal eats primarily one or the other diet. An omnivore is a creature that can go either way, or can combine the two.

As for what's healthiest, that's debatable, but one thing that isn't debatable is that no culture has ever consumed as much meat as ours. No other culture has been able to afford it. Most cultures through most of history have been mostly vegetable and grain eaters. The biggest exceptions to that have been coastal dwellers or migrant herders, and even those groups only ate a fraction of the meat we now eat.

So there's no way of knowing the long term effect of this much meat consumption. Diabetes, cancer, various organ failure diseases, obesity, all are dramatically higher for us than for past cultures, but we also have extended the average human life span (the key there is "average") so maybe people are just living longer to expose some of these diseases. Still, it is telling that each of them is more rare in vegetarians than meat eaters. I've known, and studies have shown me plenty of evidence that this isn't anecdotal, several diabetics who have gone vegetarian and lost every symptom and indication of diabetes, as though they never had it, for instance (in fact, I've never met a diabetic who switched to a whole foods vegetarian diet who did not lose all symptoms of diabetes). Makes it hard for me to believe a claim that not eating meat is unnatural when not eating it corrects major illnesses to the body.

Humans, according to scientists, evolved as hunter/gatherers with an emphasis on gatherers. We are soft, slow, weak, unprotected, and have no natural predatory features that would help us kill another animal without a weapon. Our claws are useless and our teeth are those of herbivores. Given that roadkill is generally not suited to our systems, our earliest ancestors could not have eaten much more in the way of meat than an occassional bug because they could not have caught and killed it. Since our brains were so adaptable, though, those of our ancestors who lived in regions where it was hard to farm learned to hunt, and found that they could survive on meat. That came after we had evolved to almost out current forms, though.

Given that no other primate is carnivorous, and most are almost exclusively herbivores (monkeys eat meat, mostly insects, and chimpanzees are the only other primate that hunts for meat, though their diet is 95% fruit), it's ludicrous to claim that avoiding meat is unnatural to humans. We are primates, and many primates and many humans have been largely or completely vegetarian from our earliest evolutionary stages.

[Prana69]

282. Thanks...

A number of excellent points.

D

[Ignis]

311. "no other primate is carnivorous"

That's a bit of a clue, isn't it?

Of course, we like to pretend that humans are completely unlike our closest genetic relatives...and we pay the price in diet-related health issues.

[flvegan]

294. I'd pile on, but why bother.

Proven wrong, worthless to back up as wrong.

Good for laughs, though. Thanks.

[Lucian]

310. Cue flvegan's defensive omnivore bingo...

Sorry I stole your thing, flvegan, but I love it!

[happy_liberal]

355. This is so damn funny- because I have heard every one!

It is so funny because I just want to be left alone to my personal preferences, but meat eaters feel very offended by your existence so they do anything to justify their own behaviors.

[Tailormyst]

336. Stop it!

Fod goodness sake- why the need to come fan the flames

[Hell Hath No Fury]

365. Actually, eating meat was pretty unmatural for me.

I despised most forms of animal flesh growing up, especially anything like roast, chops, or drumsticks. My Mom had to literally force feed me those things. Everything about them was wrong -- the taste, the texture, how it felt in my stomach. When I did have to eat it I slathered it with any type of sauce I could to hide the taste. The only meat I ever ate with any regularity was bologna and hamburgers. No fish, no chicken, no pork, no lamb -- just lips and butts slathered with condiments.

When I was old enough to discover there were these people called "vegetarians" I knew that is really what I had been all my life. It was as natural as breathing for me.

[AllyCat]

253. Welcome!

I've been a vegetarian of some form or another since 1988. Sometimes, it's a hassle, but mostly, I feel that I am not contributing in some small way, to polluting the planet to raise meat. The whole family has swtiched to organic, local dairy products. My husband has cut way down on his meat consumption and the kids love tofu!

Lots of learning, but we all do our best.

[eridani]

260. Haven't gone that far, but have reduced meet intake and only buy from local, grassfed sources

http://www.thunderinghooves.net /

There is very likely a similar source near you. When producers do not dump their costs on animals, people and the environment, meat is more expensive. A good motivation to eat less of it.

[Politicub]

261. Welcome to being a vegetarian - another newbie here

I've been a vegetarian for going on six months now, and I'm so glad I made that choice.

Not only do I feel good about the ethical decision, it's making a positive difference with my health and well being.

Vegetables taste so succulent to me now and fruits are sweeter. It's hard to explain, but being a vegetarian is self-reinforcing.

And it has enabled me to make more healthy choices because I need to put more thought into what I put into by body. I have stopped drinking sodas, eat fruit instead of visiting the vending machine and drink two liters of water each day. And because of all of this, I have shed 25 pounds and moved from obese on the BMI chart to overweight. I have a ways to go to reach a normal weight, but I'm proud of my progress.

It's rare that I get a craving for meat. And if I do, it's not difficult to resist.

[JudyM]

319. Fantastic -- congrats!! n/t

[SteveM]

262. While I have not given up meat, I try to stay local and organic...

In this fashion I can go a little beyond "a sense that I am sparing some animal lives." Local food takes less of a load off the oil-fueled environment, and usually keeps the money spent close at-hand. And it's fresher! While I still purchase some meats at stores, the bulk of my meat is now from hunting. This year I killed 2 deer, and after doing most of the butchering, filled a freezer with all-natural meat, locally hunted, of course.

The problem with agriculture (crops and animal husbandry) is that it consumes vast quantities of land for the purposes of growing and herding. If a deer dies due to my rifle shot, is it any worse than the deer dying because its habitat was eliminated by soy farms?

I think land use is the biggest problem, one often overlooked in the debate over vegetarianism, animal rights, etc. BTW, I do the recycling at an independent Austin vegetarian restaurant -- and they "pay" me with a food voucher! The fare here is excellent, inexpensive, mostly local and the staff puts up with my hunting (occasionally taking a surreptitious hand-off of deer burger or sausage).

[undeterred]

271. Good point - local and organic

is the best way to go. Thank goodness for farmers markets.

[nankerphelge]

265. The United Nations agrees with you...

although the report that came out earlier this month was woefully under-reported here:

UN urges global move to meat and dairy-free diet
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/02/un-re...

[Codeine]

266. DU blasted that story mercilessly.

They love the environment and the UN until it gets in the way of gorging themselves on double-handfuls of ground beef.

[Ignis]

270. I think this Bizarro comic sums it up nicely:

[Eric Condon]

268. I have been meat-free since the beginning of this year

I've still been eating seafood, but I've cut meat/poultry/pork out completely and will probably one day do the same with fish. I'm not really ethically troubled by eating things like oysters, shrimp, things that don't have faces; I don't really see how those are any different from plants.

People don't realize how little of the flavor of the foods they eat actually comes from the meat itself. I go to Five Guys now and order the veggie sandwich, which is just a burger with all the toppings and no meat for half the price, and I seriously can't taste a difference, thanks to the grilled mushrooms.

I haven't missed it at all, and I don't even think about it anymore. I put hot sauce on pretty much everything I eat (I know the sodium is high, but it can't be any worse than meat), so as long as I have some sort of empty canvas like beans or rice, I always eat well.

[Ignis]

314. +1 for "I put hot sauce on pretty much everything I eat"

Life without chilies is one big .

[keep_it_real]

279. Veggie since teens

[cherokeeprogressive]

293. Congrats. Not for me though... For some reason, my binocular vision keeps leading me to flesh.

I completely respect your decision, and support you 100%.

[Bettie]

298. I'm glad you were able to do this if it makes you happy

As for me, I don't like tofu at all and I'm not fond of beans and lentils, so I'm not going to be a veg anytime soon.

For some of us giving up meat works, for some of us it doesn't.

[eflatminor_99]

300. No you haven't

You will continue to consume animals, albeit smaller ones. Sure, a microorganisms don't have the same "cute factor" as a chicken, but you're still eating animals. Bon Apetite!

[superduperfarleft]

304. ZOMG GREAT POINT!!!111

I'm thinking it may be time just to hide this thread. To its credit, it did take about a day before it got unbearably stupid, which is probably a record for DU veg*n threads.

[Ignis]

312. There's no V in Quitter!

ETA: Besides which, that low-count troll got a quick pizza delivery.

[undeterred]

332. But they don't have faces.

That's the distinction. And that bug I swallowed was an accident...

[kentauros]

375. Was it really an accident

or was the bug just committing suicide by human mouth?

I've been veggie since 2001. Figured it was a good way to start off the Millennium positively

Congrats on making the leap

[tammywammy]

302. Congrats to you

I've been cutting back on my meat intake lately. I'm not destined to go completely vegetarian, but I'm definitely going less-meaty.

[Nihil]

305. Congratulations!

> its been over a month since I ate any meat. I have eliminated it from my diet.
> Its healthier and its ecologically sensible. There is no downside.
> Its been something I wanted to do for years but never acted on it.

Well done! It's always good to achieve something that you've "never got
around to" (regardless of the other reasons for your choice) so I can
empathise with that bit for sure!

> Join me?

Only on a daily basis but I'm happy that you are happy to extend this further.
I have vegetarian days but rarely more than four in a row (and that's mainly
when working away from home so it doesn't make mealtimes into a confusion of
"who wanted what this time?" culinary chaos).

Maybe in the future? Who can tell.

[Zorra]

325. Welcome to the club.

Been a vegetarian for 15 years.

peace!

[MadHound]

335. I hope that you're not using tofu, or things like veggie burgers or other processed plant matter

If you are, your vegetarian lifestyle is contributing more to the destruction of the planet than eating meat. Mother Jones has an interesting article on this in their latest issue, the one that just came out (sorry, it's not up on their website yet or I would link).

[Ignis]

351. Tofu does not have a higher carbon footprint than meat.

I'll look for the MJ issue you mention, but that data is contradicted by every carbon calculator I've ever seen.

[MadHound]

353. It actually has about the same carbon footprint,

It is the processing that does it. Oh, and the fact that hexane is used in the processing of veggie burgers, etc.

Processing food, whether it is meat or plant based uses up a tremendous amount of energy and causes the release of a number pollutants.

Also this article points out the benefits that grass fed beef imparts to the soil and ecosystem.

Look for the MJ issue with Glenn Beck on the cover, you'll get the bonus article on how he's ripping off his listeners.

[conspirator]

337. You used to eat beef your body is gonna miss vitamin B12. I will never give up my steak n/t

[flvegan]

347. That's a pretty uneducated post, but thanks.

[happy_liberal]

356. loves me some nutritional yeast

just for people considering the switch- if you are just veggie-eggs supply B12, vegans can eat nutrional yeast and other fortified foods.

[tabasco]

344. I might just join you.

I have been sick of meat for some time.

[happy_liberal]

354. been there for 20+ years and loving it

I just wanted to include this in the topic if anyone is interested...got this website from a DUer years ago, and now I just got a coupon anyone can use...great way to check out foods and purchase meat alternatives and all kinds of great veggie foods

http://www.veganstore.com /

(code "AN15YR" into the Promo Code box- 15% off any order through June 27th)

[Name removed]

357. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skipos]

369. If you are ever looking for a vegetarian restaurant, HappyCow.net is a good way to search for them

http://www.happycow.net /

They also have a app I have been using on my Ipod Touch.

[Ignis]

387. +1 for Happy Cow.

I travel a lot for business, and they keep me fed wherever I'm going.

[adoraz]

371. congrats, I am one as well.. I recommend

buying morningstar veggie burgers. it has been a while since I ate actual beef, but I think they taste amazing and eliminate any meat cravings I have. very healthy as well. lots of protein, only about 130-170 calories.

[undeterred]

373. I think they will become my lazy fallback...

and they are a whole lot healthier than the fast food which used to be my fallback when I am too busy to cook.

[Violet_Crumble]

379. I won't be joining you, but I wish you luck in going meat-free...

I think giving up the smokes is more than enough giving up for me for a fair while, but I'm really supportive of anyone who goes vegetarian.

Here's the song from the Smiths that came the closest to turning me meat-free. Save the lyrics and read them if you ever think yr going to relapse

Heifer whines could be human cries
Closer comes the screaming knife
This beautiful creature must die
This beautiful creature must die
A death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER

And the flesh you so fancifully fry
Is not succulent, tasty or kind
It's death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER


And the calf that you carve with a smile
It is MURDER
And the turkey you festively slice
It is MURDER
Do you know how animals die?


Kitchen aromas aren't very homely
It's not "comforting", cheery or kind
It's sizzling blood and the unholy stench
Of MURDER


It's not "natural", "normal" or kind
The flesh you so fancifully fry
The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour
Of MURDER


NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
Oh ... and who cares about an animals life?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkjqvIzTbCQ

[Maru Kitteh]

383. Every Wednesday evening from spring to fall I get to hear them scream for hours on end.

They form deep familial and friendship bonds in their herds. When they're brought to the stockyard a few blocks away they're disoriented, wounded, lonely, confused, terrified.

I'll just stop there.

[flvegan]

385. This liberationist thanks you very very much for your post.

You said more than enough.