We did it to ourselves.

[RC]

After Iraq and Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and our blind support of Israel, what country in their right mind would want to help us?
Remember 9/11? The whole world was with us, willing to help us. What did we do? Went our own way and did 'Shock and Awe' on a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 - and terrorism was not tolerated under Saddam either. We destroyed a functional government and increased terrorism in the Middle East.
Katrina? We refused the help of other countries. In fact we did not even do that much to help most of the victims ourselves. The end result was we destroyed a thriving culture that was uniquely American.
And now, because of deregulation and greed again, because the almighty dollar is the highest God we worship, we have an environmental catastrophe that is destroying a large share of the marine life in the Gulf. BP cut corners, had no backups in place that are required elsewhere. And we gave them permission to do it.
We have destroyed the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of people that depended, both directly and indirectly, on fishing on the Gulf.
After how many months that this well has been gushing its toxic brew, where are all the offers of help?
Crickets, nothing but the sound of crickets. We did it to ourselves.

[jp11]

1. It was Bush.

[TheWatcher]

39. And we allowed him and his Criminal Cabal to Steal Two Elections, Start Two Illegal Wars

Trample the Constitution, and turn the Country into a Dictatorship with a Banana Republic Casino Economy based on Derivatives, CDO's Toxic Assets, Debt without End, and Hot Air.

And we did not stop him.

And none of his Cabinet or him has been held accountable.

Some of them still have positions and influence in government.

No, it wasn't just Bush.

We have to accept our responsibility at some point.

We EMPLOY and ELECT these people to SERVE, GOVERN, AND REPRESENT.

Not OWN and RULE.

We The People need to remember the difference.

If we don't we will end up a Third World Soviet Union with better TV.

Scoff if you wish.

It will not change reality.

[izquierdista]

2. There have been offers

The Russians offered to show how they used nukes to seal off wells. The Saudis offered to show how tankers could vacuum up a lot of the oil. But noooooooooo, the Americans don't want government meddling in private business.

[jotsy]

3. I believe there have been offers to help, and recent discussion of it at DU

about the bulk of them being refused.

Everything else you expressed is hard to disagree with, I'm angry, I'm sad and damned scared about what it means for whatever the long haul has likely been shortened to. Mitigation and reclamation is where I contend our energies are best expended for the time being. It does matter how we got here, a lot of people have let all the wrong things happen out of an insistence for temporary gain and tampered with the shelf life of a slew of species in the stealing. I don't see now as an advantageous time to let their misdeeds be what consumes us though, as conditioned as we are to consume.

I say since the tourism economy on the eastern and gulf seaboards is bound for next to nothing, refit all those big pools as saltwater tanks and save what can be rescued. Maybe it's a silly idea that won't fly, but I think we have to keep our heads clear of the anger enough to use the energy it creates for constructive tasks. We all know folks could use the work.

I want to see these selfish suicide kings face justice and end their reign of personal heavens here on earth. I'll focus on that when I think whatever reparations can be made are managed.

The war machine has been at work much longer than our current escapades in the middle east might reflect. Generations of militant managers that represent the U.S. must carry a mindset mirroring the man who armed both sides of a conflict in the old Clint Eastwood flick...For a Few Dollars More? I wonder if anyone ever reminded any of them that international relations is an ongoing process and not a movie they're set to star in.

[RC]

8. Do you have any "Main stream" sources?

DU is suspect with some people. Don't know why.

I did a Google search and it did not turn up much. I do kinda remembering hearing about the Sandi's offer of help.

[jotsy]

9. CNN mainstream enough?

<http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/26/gulf.spill.help/index.html>

Personally not a fan of the traditional venues as they don't work to inform but to mold opinion.

[RC]

13. Good enough, thanks.

[Bluenorthwest]

4. Lots of countries have offered to help

Thus far they are being refused. And not being refused by 'us' either, but by specific entities and individuals among us. 'We' did not do it. They did. This desire to mitigate the criminal actions of others by spreading the guilt to the powerless is disgusting. And as accurate as your reporting on international offers of aid.

[Mari333]

5. and we are still doing it

[Taitertots]

6. I'm a young adult, you did this to us

The vast majority of those things took place before anyone my age could do anything about it.

[sagetea]

7. OUCH!!

My daughter said something similar like that to me...ouch!
Of course I can only take blame for what I've personally done, which is protest,vote,send letters, make phone calls. but you're right I will always have a sense of failure for not doing more.

Ho
sage

[L0oniX]

10. Love your sig line.

[sagetea]

12. Thank you very much!

That made my day!

Ho
sage

[L0oniX]

11. We can take some of the blame but the problems are rooted in the distant past.

Watch this doc if you can ...it explain a lot of why we are at this point with no real alternatives.

What A Way To Go Life At The End Of Empire
http://www.freespeech.org/free-speech-tv-schedule

[Taitertots]

14. Old people have had decades to make it better

We don't have alternatives anymore. We did have plenty of alternatives over the last 30-40 years that the last generations refused adopt. The old generations have left my generation at the end of the empire.

[bobbolink]

15. Yes, we can tell your age. If you were older, you would be able to acknowledge what *has* been

done, as well as what was left undone.

Guilt. Geee, what a gift of gratitude to those who have worked their butts off.... for YOU.

[Taitertots]

18. Perfuming the turd

What has been done?

Reagan (Do I even need to itemize his failures).
The Patriot Act.
Bush economic collapse (housing bubble).
Stock market collapse 2001.
Two wars of Aggression against innocent countries. Thats not counting the proxy wars we fought through other countries
Free love became free STDs. Millions of people are dying around the world from the health epidemic the older generation allowed to flourish(HIV/AIDS).
Your pollution has ruined huge tracts of the earth, islands of garbage in the oceans, great lakes fish too polluted with mercury to eat regularly, and a whole world contaminated with PCBS.
The US government tortured people and sent them other countries to be tortured.



If you were younger you would be ungrateful to the people who left you an economy in ruin, and a society on the brink of ruin. Why don't we take a drive through Detroit so you can remind me how grateful I should be at the condition of the world the older generations left us?

[bobbolink]

19. You've convinced me. We should have NEVER tried to improve the world for

ungrateful toddlers.

Those of us who have been activists all these years should have left if for your generation to deal with.

[Taitertots]

24. No, you should have actually improved the world

Instead of leaving it a wasteland from your consumption. You left even worse problems for us to deal with.

[bobbolink]

26. I'm sure you have done so much better. umm... what HAVE you done?

Again, you have convinced me. I have stopped doing all I was doing to improve things, thanks to your logic.

Carry on.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

20. And if you were older, you'd know how hard some of us have been working.

Just think, you might not have been born to complain about what happened before.

Besides, you're skipping some big chunks of history in your little account.

Plus, the Great Lakes are so much cleaner today than they were before, thanks to the work of those elders you're talking about.

I could list a bunch of stuff, but you wouldn't hear it or acknowledge it anyhow.

So, tell us what you've done to help things become better. We're all ears.

[LanternWaste]

50. I would hazard that late in an October evening of 1066...

I imagine every generation believes that the one prior to it is at fault for 99% of thew world's problems. That the current generation will "do what it can when it can", and the next generation is under-educated. Every time. An old cycle, probably as old as humanity.

I would hazard that late in an October evening of 1066, Jensen of Alygur told his father, "it's your generation's fault William got here, conquered us, and ruined the world for thousands of years to come..."

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[End Of The Road]

16. Quit your bitching and DO something about it. nt

[Taitertots]

31. Something like start an environmental association on campus?

Something like working at a bird sanctuary?
Something like pressuring the campus to switch to no water urinals?
Something like educating thousands of children about environmental stewardship?


I've only had a few years, you have had your whole adult life.

[William Z. Foster]

33. sure

And you are off to such a great start.

This is going to come back to bite you in the ass so hard some day. Trust me.

All hail the no-water urinals. Back in my day we pissed in the field - much better than your solution.

Someone must have educated YOU about environmental stewardship. Must have been an older person, too. But the hell with them all now. You know better.

My sister has worked in a bird sanctuary for 40 years. How are you superior to her?

[Taitertots]

36. How are several thousand people supposed to pee in a field?

How is environmentalism going to bite me in the ass?

The need for environmental stewardship should be obvious given the damage the older generations have done to the earth.

What makes you think I think I'm superior to your sister? The older generations as a whole left a destroyed earth and a dysfunctional world economy for us. I'm sure your sister is a wonderful person. She is a tiny minority within generation.

[William Z. Foster]

38. it was a joke

We old folks have a sense of humor.

Environmentalism is not going to bite you in the ass, old age is and your arrogance may come back to haunt you, as well.

Here is a clue - you are a tiny minority in your generation, too.

[Taitertots]

42. I'm sure when I'm old I will stop realizing deference to age is an appeal to a false authority

And I'll act like young people shouldn't be mad at me for the world I've helped to leave them.

A growing minority.

[MineralMan]

17. Yes, and some of us have worked very hard to get alternatives

in place. Some of us pioneered the technology for solar and wind energy. Some of us invented that stuff. Some of us even implemented it in our own homes and encouraged others to do the same. You weren't around to see that happen, and you haven't taken the time to see what was done. In 1969, there were a dozen all-electric vehicles in my university town, and we even got two shopping centers to install charging stations for them. I had solar hot water heating in my home in 1971. The very first concentrating solar generation installation was made in California in the 1970s. The first wind farm was installed in Tehachapi in the early 1970s. The first commercial geothermal electical generation was built in California in the same period.

The groundwork was being laid. My generation invented the technology that is finally beginning to become accepted by your generation. You, my young friend, simply don't know about all that. You're showing your ageism here on DU. Please stop that.

[Taitertots]

23. So where are they, your generation refused to sacrifice and adopt them

You had the technology to prevent the environmental destruction my generation will have to live with. Your generation refused to adopt a sustainable lifestyle when it could have actually prevented the environmental calamity that you left us. You had the means to create a sustainable existence and chose not to in favor of unchecked consumption.

[depakid]

25. I actually hate to agree with you- but there isn't any way to do so

We've known for a long time what the problems were- and where the solutions lay. Unfortunately, too many people preferred magical thinking and "Morning in America" to more difficult and responsible choices.

People preferred hulking SUV's to fuel efficient vehicles and mass transit. Flat out libertarianism and sprawl to cogent land use planning.

The list goes on and on.

That said, don't blame the folks who were out there on the front lines, working against this in the trenches- often for little reward and a LOT of ridicule. Things could easily be a whole lot worse...

[Taitertots]

30. The people on the front lines are a tiny minority

The vast majority are not making long term responsible choices.

Thank you to the minority trying to help, but you are offset by the vast majority who doesn't care.

[MineralMan]

44. Dude...your generation is doing exactly the same thing.

The battle has been going on since the 70s. Some folks adopted the technology. Most did not and are still not adopting it. Don't blame your parent's generation. The current one is doing the same thing...exactly.

Many people in my generation actually did adopt a sustainable lifestyle, and are still living it. We started the recycling revolution and started many of the things you're blaming us for not doing. Again...what are you doing to move towards a sustainable lifestyle? Everything starts with individual action.

[L0oniX]

21. So how would you have handled it so it would be good for you ...smart guy?

Maybe we should have let Hitler win the war. Maybe we should have stayed with steam power. Maybe horse and buggies aren't that bad. Maybe oil lamps are more efficient. Maybe there would be more room for the new comers if we had not developed medical knowledge. Tell me ...do you drive a car? Do you have local food markets? Do you have internet? Did you come up with these things? Tell me what alternatives do you think you would have had while raising 2 kids. Maybe we all should have gotten vasectomies or our tubes tied before our fucking kids took over our priorities.

[TheWatcher]

41. Hitler, Schmitler. He Started an ENVIRONMENTAL ASSOCIATION.

ON CAMPUS.

Put That in your Greatest Generation and Save Private Ryan With It.

:sarcasm:

[MineralMan]

45. Yeah, I started one of those when I was in college, too,

in the late 1960s. It grew too large to remain a campus organization, and was instrumental in establishing consumer curbside recycling in that area. No, nobody from our generation did any damn thing at all. Nope. We all just punted and used as much energy as possible.

And, I suppose those of us from my generation who marched in Selma did anything of any value for society.

Feh! Whining...

[TheWatcher]

57. The Utter Ignorance of History in that little character is breathtaking, isn't it?

While you and I disagree more than we agree, you DO seem to have an understanding of History, so even though there are sharp conflicts, there is the mutual knowing that we have that, therefore we can agree to disagree on some kind of common ground.

But THIS one.....

Ohhhhhhhh, Boy.....

Some Growing Up needs to be done here. :rofl:

At least my generation didn't feel the need to "Keep Up" With The Kardashians..... :rofl:

[L0oniX]

22. I blame my great grand parents. n/t

[Taitertots]

29. You have had your whole adult life to fix those problems

You didn't and you made many many more.

Now I'm going to have to spend my adult life paying for the excess of your generation and trying to fix those problems.

[MineralMan]

46. You keep diggin, there...

Soon, you'll have a hole deep enough to hide in.

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. I understand the rage at having been left a planet in this condition. I can remember how pissed I

was about the hole in the ozone.

But I don't get yelling at the people who have been trying to help, or the demand that we have it all fixed by now. The destruction going on in the world is like the BP gusher, and we are armed with a thimble to close it off. It's not that we don't want to stop it or that we aren't trying our best, but we are being overwhelmed by an enemy a zillion times bigger than us who can destroy so much faster than we can repair. :(

[bobbolink]

49. I don't believe this is righteous rage. I believe it is more attempt to obfuscate the REAL issue...

the corporate domination.

We have been doing TOO much for some of these people, and they fight back with what they have.... division.

[GreenPartyVoter]

51. It does make you wonder. It could be actual rage, but from someone

too young to have been in the world long enough to know what they are up against. :(

Now, if we could just take the unbridled enthusiasm of the young and the wisdom of the elders and put that together it certainly would work better toward achieving our common goals.

[bobbolink]

52. To put those two things together, there has to be a willingness to listen.

That willingness is missing here.

Having survived spousal abuse, and many other kinds of abuse, I no longer suffer fools gladly, as I think is common with elders.

Fortunately, I have met many young adults who ARE interested in listening, and hearing our experiences and our wisdom. I truly believe there is a lot of energy there.... in a good way. :)

Jim Wallis and others have said they see this in young people as they travel around. I have too. This one is an abberation, although there is also a lot of cruelty in this generation.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. Well, I am raising two members of the next generation. Here's hoping they

fall into the category noted by Rev. Wallis. :)

[bobbolink]

54. As you know, motherhood has no guarantees.

I suspect you are doing fine, and I have my fingers crossed for you. :hi: Knowing you, I suspect that your two at least have a bit more respect in their interactions.

Seriously, there are so many pitfalls in growing up, and each generation seems to have more pits to fall into. While there are tremendous joys, I don't envy your position in these times.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't word about the state of the world they are living in. Environmental,

social, political. A lot of messes out there right now. :(

[killbotfactory]

27. The American people don't get to vote on national policies

We vote for personalities who may or may not represent where we want the country to go.

Those we vote for are a very tiny percentage of the population, and as we can see, are easily targeted by interests who can afford to send armies of lobbyists and campaign cash in their direction, and who employ millions of people.

The system is not designed to represent the masses, or to represent the principles we want, it represents the interests of the powerful and wealthy at the expense of everyone else.

If we want this to change we must allow everybody to be housed, fed, clothed, receive medical care, and be educated without the need for employment. This should be a universal right of all.

Then we must change the way our government operates, and how people are elected. It is insane to assume that one person can represent the needs of so many people, whether it is the house of representatives, the senate, or the president. Our system of government was designed by the wealthy and powerful, for the interest of the wealthy and powerful, and we allow it to continue because the wealthy and powerful have a stranglehold on ability to survive.

[EFerrari]

32. I only wish I had that much power over the empire. n/t

[TheWatcher]

40. You DON'T KNOW The Power Of The DARK SIDE.

JOIN ME and we will RULE THE UNIVERSE As Rocky And Darthwinkle.

Or at least Oregon..... :evilgrin:

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. We did get aid during Katrina

here is the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

I could tell you that it took a lot of work, and behind State's back work, but there was HELP.

Here, we are getting help from other countries too. Just not too public, the Dutch come to mind, for example.

http://thenewsasithappens.com/dutch-oil-skimming-ships-sent-to-gulf/

It takes a little work I know...

[HughBeaumont]

35. We, we, we, what?

I didn't vote for Reagan or choose the corptocracy he brought with him.

I can't take over a corporate boardroom all by my lonesome.

Change takes millions; not just the streets, but corporate boardrooms need to be invaded. We need to go right the hell upstairs, get in their offices and demand they start PLAYING BALL.

Thousands cannot talk to or reason with security guards, cops or the military. There's a reason you never see cops at tea parties unless they're joking with the protestors: plain and simple, they don't like the left. At ALL. They say they'd never murder their neighbors, but how many of them really see people who want fairer treatment in life as their NEIGHBOR? When push came to shove, what side would they choose??

Arrest is painful and will make you unemployable for life.

Here's the thing, though. We need to stop fearing police and security guards, because both sides know they can't incarcerate millions MORE.

They can, however, incarcerate thousands more.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. You've been to a few tea party rallies?

I have, and the Harbor Police did not interact with them. San Diego PD brought the cavalry, literally, before they disbanded the horse unit... and the Sheriff department brought the Riot Control gear.

Just saying...

[HughBeaumont]

43. Yes, I have, in Cleveland and other areas, and have looked at online photos also . . .

. . . . and at our Tea party rallies, there were no police with riot gear, yardsticks or looking to let off some steam, as they did at the 2005 Inauguration and the several anti-war protests in D.C. that I've attended.

The 2007 anti-war rally where the "Gathering of the Eagles" poured in was the capper - five freepers assaulted a Gold Star dad and the cops did NOTHING (there's pictorial proof of it in this thread). There were reports of other assaults on protesters and photographers of the event, but the police broke it up and made no arrests.

The Police that were at the Cleveland TeaBirther rally on Mall C weren't acting aggressively toward any protesters. There was another event in Public Square that literally had no police, but that was only because there wasn't much of a crowd either.

To say that they treat left and right crowds the very same is disingenuous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Well then our experience is different

our local police does...

And in fact, they had to bring the the riot police during an anti war demonstration, not because the over 1500 lefties were out of control, but the 20 or so skin heads. They had to field cops to keep those 20 contained.