From whence comes this notion of expertise (re: oil fix) being exclusive to the private sector?

[Duer 157099]

Who are the professors that teach about petroleum engineering to students? Do they teach at public universities?

If we scoured all of the public universities around the country, I'm willing to bet that a healthy number of experts can be identified.

[napi21]

1. There are thousands of expets in oil engineering, but I don't

think any of them know how to fix this mess!

[Lorien]

3. Of course they do. Just ask Norway, or any other Nation who isn't ruled by their

corporations or ours. Our government and theirs is entirely capable of plugging a hole and cleaning up the mess-but they want YOU to BELIEVE that Big Corporations are the only answer to every problem. And you do.

[glitch]

12. Regurgitated Reaganomics.

It's a zombie thing, they will keep coming back.

[WeDidIt]

2. Theory in university and reality in the field bears little resemblance

And no, university professors of petroleum engineering have no clue about working a mile under water. They can design devices that theoretically will withstand the pressures and temperatures, but people with field experience in deep water excavation and problem solving are found in the private sector.

The Federal government has no expertise in this field. The United States Navy has no equipment designed to work at such depths. Universities have no submarines, let alone under water vehicles capable of operating a mile under the surface.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Fumesucker]

10. The US Navy does indeed have deep water submersibles...

And you have a very narrow view of what universities and professors are and do, in fact your caricature of university educators and researchers seems remarkably right wing to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSV_Alvin

Alvin (DSV-2) is a 16-ton, manned deep-ocean research submersible owned by the United States Navy and operated by the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. The craft was built by General Mills' Electronics Group<1> in the same factory used to manufacture breakfast cereal-producing machinery in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Named to honor the prime mover and creative inspiration for the vehicle, Allyn Vine, Alvin was commissioned on 5 June 1964. The submersible is launched from the deep submergence support vessel Atlantis, which is also owned by the U.S. Navy and operated by WHOI. The submersible has taken 12,000 people on over 4,000 dives to observe the lifeforms that must cope with super-pressures and move about in total darkness. It is said that research conducted by Alvin has been featured in nearly 2,000 scientific papers.

Alvin was designed as a replacement for bathyscaphes and other less maneuverable oceanographic vehicles. Its more nimble design was made possible in part by the development of syntactic foam, which is buoyant and yet strong enough to serve as a structural material at great depths. The three-person vessel allows for two scientists and one pilot to dive for up to nine hours at 4500 meters (15,000 ft). The submersible features two robotic arms and can be fitted with mission-specific sampling and experimental gear. The hatch of the vessel is 0.48 meters (19 inches) in diameter and somewhat thicker than the 2 in (50 mm) thick titanium pressure hull,<2>, and held in place by the pressure of the water above it (it is tapered, narrower inward).

[BeFree]

18. No they don't.!!

I read it here a dozen times on DU that the Navy doesn't do deepwater , uh, stuff.
************************

Of course the Navy has stuff that we don't even know about. There's no telling what they could do, and I bet there are some Navy people just chomping at the bit to be turned loose on this.

Only after I hear an Admiral, or some such deepwater expert, tell us that the Navy can't help, will I think they can't.

For now I just laugh at the idiots that think BP is the only deepwater expert.

[Codeine]

21. Not much Alvin can do down there.

They can watch, but a remote vehicle can do - and is doing - that too. The little sampling arms aren't robust enough to deal with an oil gusher.

[BeFree]

23. eh?

Did you see the saw that BP used to cut pipe?

And do you think the Navy calls BP for help when a Navy sub has trouble underwater?

Are you like some kind of expert on what the Navy, or Alvin, can and can't do?
If not, why are you acting as if you are?

[Codeine]

27. USN submarine recovery is actually at a low point right now.

The older class of deep-diving rescue vehicles has been decommissioned and the newest generation of ROVs is in a developmental stage. They maintain some capability with access to the WHOI fleet, but that's less than one might think. I'm not an expert, but I do have a keen interest in this subject.

I'm also a lot less nasty than you. :hi:

[ShamelessHussy]

30. then COMMANDEER one, dammit! If I was in charge, and that was the answer i got, you'd be FIRED

yesterday.

:hi:

[BeFree]

32. You wish

It must really piss you off then, to read idiots writing that the Navy can't do deepwater stuff? Or are you so partisan that it makes you feel giddy?

[Fumesucker]

25. The Navy has the highest tech gear available for underwater operations..

Much of it is classified so it's not known to the public but the Navy does indeed have ROVs..

And the private ROVs don't have the capabilities to directly deal with a gusher either, they will manipulate machinery which will do the actual controlling.

[Codeine]

26. I was referring specifically to just Alvin.

Not USN submersibles in general.

[Fumesucker]

31. But Alvin would also manipulate the equipment that would do the actual work..

Which was the point I was trying to make, perhaps not as clearly as I would have wished.

[HughMoran]

17. You are correct, sir

We should not be drilling at all this deep since the technology does not exist to fix things when they break.

[rucky]

29. How's all that hands-on experience been helping with this one?

Nobody has experienced something like this, and everything they've tried has been theory.

[Go2Peace]

5. It's a popular libertarian/Rep talking point that apparently people believe now

[laughingliberal]

16. Yep. nt

[stray cat]

6. I could throw a book or a mathematical equation at it! I got it - QUENCH gum MacGyver style!

QUENCH even sounds like it would work, I don't have things in my basement that can stop oil from exploding out of the ocean floor one mile down. That requires specialized equipment and money and time to build. I can't find anything functioning even in the journal Science or Nature that I can slap together like MacGyver - maybe some bubble gum?

I don't know if overseas oil companies have something that would work but most oil companies are international anyway.

[pnwmom]

7. And why do you assume they have a solution to a problem that wasn't supposed to happen?

[Duer 157099]

13. What I'm saying is that the people who are the most highly educated

in the field, are typically in public universities. Not the "BP School for Postgraduate Engineering" or something.

And there is such a thing as Applied Engineering.

I just object to how everyone keeps thinking that BP and only BP are the ones qualified to weigh in on the subject, like they've cornered the market on engineering know how.

That's all.

[pnwmom]

20. I asked a university professor at a large public university.

An engineer, he has decades of experience in fluid mechanics. He said the only solution may be the Russian one -- a nuclear bomb. Something tells me you wouldn't like that answer any more than I did.

[Duer 157099]

22. It's not whether I like the answer, it's that there are people schooled in this

and not all of them work in industry.

[pnwmom]

24. But the people who are "schooled in this" don't have any ready solutions.

It takes time to develop scientific and engineering solutions -- time that we don't have.

If the Government had pushed BP out of the way, the Feds -- taking the advice of all the experts in the world -- would still be using the same trial-and-error method B.P. is. And looking completely incompetent. Anyone who takes on a next-to-impossible job is going to look bad while attempting to fix it.

[pnwmom]

8. Professors don't own the equipment. The Federal Government doesn't either.

Most of what does exist is owned by the oil industry.

[glitch]

14. What a shame the Federal Government is incapable of contracting jobs out.

Oh wait.

Really, do expect to this meme to fly after decades of outsourcing government projects?

[pnwmom]

19. Why do you think the Federal government has some special knowledge in how to handle

this situation?

The Feds have gathered together a group of high level "experts" precisely because there is no known quick, effective, safe, do-able solution. Science and engineering don't take place overnight. And the military has zero experience and no equipment for handling an oil gush. The military is great at moving PEOPLE and their things, but that expertise doesn't transfer to the current crisis.

[glitch]

34. This excuse needs a lot of work.

If your goal is to get people to buy into it you need to make it realistic. And really, beware the soft bigotry of low expectations.

I am saying the government can handle this, even if they have to hire experts who can manage the project to a successful solution. You are saying the government can't manage it, they must rely on BP to call the shots. Despite the fact that they may have entirely different successful end results in mind -- US: stop the spill and save the Gulf. BP: salvage the well and save the oil. People on the project either working for US on one goal OR working for BP on an entirely different one.

Different bosses, different goals. See the difference?

[laughingliberal]

11. From the same place unfounded faith in the private, for profit sector always comes.

Reagnite Republican anti-government propaganda.

[William Z. Foster]

15. and what diference does it make?

All of the railroad equipment experts and designers and engineers were working in private industry when the two world wars broke out. So what? That didn't stop the USRA or WPB from managing, overseeing, supervising and directing the railroads and manufacturing for the public good.

All of the horses and riders were private before the creation of the US Postal Service. Did that mean that the government did not have the assets or expertise to deliver mail, and so therefore we should have left that in private hands?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. The Incident commander is a USCG Admiral

http://www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/559191/

Please do get informed.

[ThomWV]

33. and he has publicly stated that he is not being denied any resource he requires

Rachel interviewed him last week.