Sorry but as hard as you try you are not going to make me hate them

[NNN0LHI]

Thats what I told a Republican in the restaurant in town yesterday when we were talking about immigration.

He says, I don't hate them.

I said you don't? You want to round them up and deport them but you don't hate them?

I said Jebuz, I hope you don't ever like me that well.

End of conversation.

Don

[joeybee12]

1. It's the same old, "we don't hate gays, we love gays, it's the SIN we hate...

...same old bullshit, different minority.

[dkf]

2. Please differentiate legal immigration from illegal immigration.

You all are constantly smearing people who have shown respect for US law by grouping them with those who wilfully disrespect our laws. These are two very distinct groups and should be noted as such.

Legal immigrants are the ones we should celebrate. They are the backbone of this country.

[NNN0LHI]

3. There was no difference to this fellow

He hates anyone who isn't white.

He would deport black people if he thought he could get away with it.

Don

[dkf]

4. Well it makes a huuuuge difference to me.

I hate that legal immigrants are tarred with this stigma. Illegal immigration is CAUSING them grief. It is not fair. They did everything right yet other peoples lawbreaking lands up with them as targets. All non white people should be pissed by illegal immigration.

I'm pissed that because I'm not white these illegal immigrants make it likely I'll have to show ID if I visit Arizona Yet I will gladly do it if it solves this.

[blondeatlast]

7. So why do we have "reason to believe" you aren't a citizen?

As I've pointed out to you before, there's a damn lot of people of all races skirting immigration for college and jobs in AZ--why should you be singled out?

My ex did--even AFTER we were married. He's brown too.

[dkf]

15. You all are the ones telling me I'm going to be targeted

Because I'm not white.

I didn't believe it til this board told me so.

[blondeatlast]

27. Until now, I didn't know you weren't white. But you go ahead and believe that RW bs

if it makes you happy.

[dkf]

101. I'm tired of lawbreaking period.

Sick of crooked wall street types, sick of oil companies faking safety measures, sick of illegal immigrants, sick of people who think they can do whatever the hell they please while I try to comply with all this crap.

I'm beginning to wonder what is the use. Might as well join the tax cheats and the rest of the crooks out there.

[LanternWaste]

114. those you laws you agree with anyways.

"I'm tired of lawbreaking period..."

Riiight. Well, those you laws you agree with anyways.

[dkf]

197. Don't know of any laws I'm breaking.

I'm in compliance as far as I can tell.

[William Z. Foster]

208. "in compliance?"

Think about what you are tacitly accepting as a political and social context.

[treestar]

157. If you're so tired of it, find a place where all the laws are enforced all the time

And regardless of any surrounding circumstances. And treated equally regardless of the level of danger presented! North Korea might be nice this time of year.

[dkf]

199. Following the laws means not illegally living in other countries.

So since I'm not a citizen of North Korea I can't exactly go there legally can I?

And only lawbreakers want to live in the US? That's a great opinion you have of your fellow Americans. Only lawbreakers welcomed! Yay us.

[William Z. Foster]

166. calling in the cops

The country has half lost its collective mind with a "call in the cops" mentality about everything. The policing agencies protect the interests of the wealthy few. They are not the right tool for protecting working class interests.

[KonaKane]

30. Driving while Brown.

I'm not sure where you live, but as a person who spent most of his life in the Southwest and on border areas, I can tell you that it is an unwritten law in those areas that gets cops to people over for "driving while Brown". Anyone telling you that there is not a racist element to this new AZ law is either lying or woefully uneducated as to the realities of life in border states.

[blondeatlast]

33. Exactly. It's all about getting them "dirty" brown people. It doesn't matter from where they came.

My ex-husband is Asian Indian but klight-skinned. I can't count hiow many times he was considered "Mexican" and oh, the strange looks he used to get when out with our son, who has brown hair. There were times I KNEW that if I weren't with them both, my ex would have been arrested for kidnapping.

I only wih I were exaggerating. Not so, no indeed.

[blondeatlast]

9. "All non white people should be pissed by illegal immigration."

:wow:

I read that, right here at DU.

Un. Fucking. Believable. But there it is.

[NNN0LHI]

10. I have seen that posted plenty here too

[pampango]

12. It's Strategy #9 on "the Right-Wing Playbook on Immigration Reform".

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/previewing-the-right-wing-playbook-immigration-reform#strategy8

[dkf]

17. The other side's playbook is to call it racist when it isn't.

When we allow the population to break the law because of their race THAT is racist.

We are allowing political correctness to overrun our laws. How screwed up is that?

[Quantess]

23. We allow EMPLOYERS to break the law by hiring illegal immigrants.

That is why they come here. To work.
Somebody is hiring them, and that's why illegal immigrants come here.

For once, I'd like to see someone point the finger at the companies who hire illegal immigrants, illegally.

[dkf]

99. Oh I'd throw someone who knowingly hires illegal immigrants in jail.

I have no patience for those dirtbags either. That is pure exploitation.

[William Z. Foster]

209. this false talking point

This talking point is being repeated and repeated, despite having been refuted and debunked many times. Either address the counter-arguments to this talking or stop using it. Using a talking point as though it had not been not or could not be refuted - when it in fact has - is spamming the board with propaganda rather than engaging in discussion.

[Confusious]

106. Arizona has passed multiple laws

Dealing with that. The same law that everyone has their panties in a wad about also penalizes employers.

Most of the laws have been in court so much that they haven't been put into effect.

[SargeUNN]

164. Confusion you live in Arizona? How much do you REALLY Know about this

I live here and I cover this on my show which not only shows one side but all sides. I read your post and I can see the lack of knowledge you have about this issue. You really should learn more before you post.

[Lost4words]

118. Yes!

[blondeatlast]

37. It ain't targeting Canucks, sugar. Racist it is; dress it up however you want. nt

[dkf]

100. If an illegal Canadian gets caught I fully support deportation too.

I have no idea why they would want to be here anyway. Canadians have it great.

[William Z. Foster]

167. good for you

But this is not about illegal immigration. If it were, we might be talking about Canadians and Ukrainians and Poles and Hungarians. But we aren't. No one is. Because it is not about immigration at all. And it does not matter what sort of cover you come up with for your support of the racist anti-immigrant hysteria building in the country.

[emilyg]

42. It's very screwed up. DU has a tendency

to scream "racist" too much. After a while it looses it's meaning.

[blondeatlast]

45. If the term fits, I shout it from the rooftops. It fits regarding this law.

But you keep playing victim. You are soooo pretty at it.

[emilyg]

51. I don't view myself as a victim. Just a law abiding citizen. Goodbye.

[blondeatlast]

55. Aw, you're adorable. nt

[emilyg]

57. Yes I am. Thank you. Excuse me

while I do something constructive instead of wasting my time with you.

[blondeatlast]

58. I thought you already said goodbye. You're so sweet to stay, but my feelings aren't at all hurt

by your exit!

[William Z. Foster]

83. too much?

You think racism is discussed too much?

Discussions can rarely get started on the subject. Very quickly someone will post "it isn't about racism" or "you are always playing the race card" to shut any discussion down.

Racism is hardly discussed at all compared to 40 years ago. All discussions are dominated by deniers and apologists. Arguments break out about who might have been "called a racist" when almost always no one was.

[emilyg]

97. I think the term "racist" is way overused.

[EFerrari]

104. That's a shame because what with the resurgence of white nationalism

I'm afraid you're going to be hearing it a lot more before this is over with.

Remember Napolitano's report?

[William Z. Foster]

147. sure it is

By right wingers and racists endlessly saying "how dare you call me a racist!!!" every time they are challenged on their bigoted statements.

40 years ago it was KKK people saying "I am tired of all this talk about racism."

30 years ago extreme right wing Republicans started saying that.

20 years ago right wing radio started hammering on that theme, and all Republicans picked it up.

10 years ago Democrats started in on it.

Today, it is accepted as a legitimate point of view by many liberals and progressives.

Clearly, we are going backward. Yet the "I am tired of hearing about racism" idea is predicated on the notion that we are not only going forward, but have gone far enough.

[William Z. Foster]

82. this can't be real

You are now using the right wing "they are playing the race card" line?

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. She's right

The construction, natural resources and farming jobs which are increasingly hard to find, and which pay less due to illegal immigration were disproportionately held by minorities and native americans.

[county worker]

32. What year was that?

I doubt you can substantiate that.

Here in the San Joaquin valley migrants were of all nationalities. During the dust bowl days they were mainly from the midwest but still they were mostly first generation immigrants.

I makes no difference the color of immigration, the story has been the same. They are hated and scapegoated because they are different and scare us into believing we are worse off because they are here.

Read "The Grapes of Wrath"

[lumberjack_jeff]

35. You doubt that workers of color are disproportionately blue-collar?

Really?

[Berserker]

64. I agree 100 fucking percent

Think about it. It is illegal immigration some are not supporting right here on FUCKING DU. Immigration is great Illegal is not.

[EFerrari]

79. You people are unreal. Instigating coups for Dole is also illegal.

I don't see you protesting that. Kidnapping presidents and supporting dictators like Pinochet is also illegal but do I ever hear a word about it from the law and order Democrats around here? No chance. Right now people are being kidnapped and murdered in Honduras by the government WE put in to displace the man who was reforming that country. Where were all you people when that was happening? I know you didn't fry your fax machines protesting the State Department over that one.

No, you protest the unfortunate people your own government has dispossessed in their country and then treats like sh!t when they have the guts to survive long enough to make it here.

That just takes the cake. "But, we waited five years". Some people can't wait for five years or forever to get a chance to save their families. Illegal, my @ss. If the farmers of Mexico declared war on us, they'd have the high ground for NAFTA alone. If all the working people in Central America marched up here en mass to demand restitution for the centuries of exploitation and slaughter and misery, they'd have the high ground, too. And too many others to count.

But ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS? Oh, noooooeeeees! They broke the law! Forget we've screwed their countries for the last two hundred and fifty years, they broke the law! Get me my smelling salts!

[xynthee]

88. Well said!

It's so upsetting to see this kind of unapologetic anti-immigrant sentiment expressed on DU! I get too upset to formulate a coherent response, so I thank you for doing it for me.

[Confusious]

108. That is the worst argument I have ever seen

Instigating coups for Dole is also illegal

Hawaii? Little before my time, and DU's as well. I'm sure if DU was around then I would have been against it.

Kidnapping presidents and supporting dictators like Pinochet

Don't like it, again, a little before my time and DU's as well. What about the coup in Argentina? That wasn't the US.

Right now people are being kidnapped and murdered in Honduras by the government WE put in to displace the man who was reforming that country

Again, don't like, and as a matter of fact, don't like a lot of things the government does. Seems to get less and less all the time.

If all the working people in Central America marched up here en mass to demand restitution for the centuries of exploitation and slaughter and misery, they'd have the high ground, too. And too many others to count.

There's a lot of ground to cover. I'm not saying the United States is a Saint, it's probably might not even make limbo, but just because your skin is brown doesn't make you without sin or a saint.

Lets see your posts against DOLE, or your posts against Pinochet. Still doesn't say much. I don't respond to posts I agree with because I don't like circle-jerks. I only post when I disagree, and I disagree with you.

Your argument is like me being 1% German, 40 years old and you blaming me for the holocaust.

Unbelievable.

[EFerrari]

122. Nope. The coup in Honduras isn't even a year old.

And our government is still, today, screwing people in many countries in Latin America. While people sit here railing against undocumented workers, our government is still creating refugees in Latin America.

[EFerrari]

125. Here, btw, is a listing of Dole facilities in Latin America.

http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=Dole+in+Latin+America&fr=yfp-t-701&u=www.dole.com/servedocument.aspx%3Ffp%3Ddocuments/dole/DoleFacilities_LatinAmerica.pdf&w=dole+doles+latin+america&d=H6yeFe8_U0KU&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=6MGo3K8vgFpcvacYawW.Dw--

[jberryhill]

71. Lol... Illegal immigrants are not what is causing the grief

The froth over "illegal immigrants" is merely due to the observation that we can get rid of a lot of Hispanics by getting rid of the illegals FIRST.

This game has gone on for generations. Trust me - these people didn't want you or your parents to come here at all - legal or not.

If you want to get rid of social assistance to the working poor, you go on about "Welfare Queens" and "abuse". If you don't like Hispanics, you go on about "illegals". Nobody wanted the Irish or Italians here either. This sentiment didn't spring up yesterday out of some "problem" that illegals were causing.

What's happened is that tighter border enforcement has made it difficult for seasonal workers to get across and back each year - so they are staying.

What we need is immigration reform that doesn't try to spit into the wind of agricultural practices that are as old as settlement of the West. Then, harvesting vegetables is no longer a life and death game.

[William Z. Foster]

84. well said

Of course.

How can so many liberals and progressives be in such deep denial about this, and spread all of the lies about it on every thread on the subject?

[jberryhill]

89. Awww you know why...

They bought the line. You don't have to be upset about it. The propaganda on this issue is good, and persuasive.

Illegal immigration is a "problem". It just isn't the problem that a lot of people think it is. But that's why it is important for the haters to get their framing out early, so that a rational discussion of reform is not possible. No way do they want to acknowledge that this country is fed by Mexican hands, and we need a rational way of managing that longstanding fact.

[William Z. Foster]

92. right

Right you are. Again, well said.

[William Z. Foster]

81. just cover

You are adding momentum to the racist movement. You can say to yourself and others that you are making some sort of differentiation, so your stand is altogether different than the stand of the racists, but that is just cover. Your view still supports the racist anti-immigrant movement.

What is the difference between these two statements?

- I am not racist, but I think that they are diluting our culture and are a burden an must go.

- I am not racist, and I am not opposed to immigrants, but undocumented immigrants are a different story and they must go.

There is no difference in practical political effect.

[Lost4words]

117. They are ALL HUMAN BEINGS, every last one!

basta!

[treestar]

153. Illegal immigrants do not cause legal immigrants any grief

Legal immigrants are lucky. Why should they complain? We have the right to expand the categories for legal immigration if the system is too restrictive to work. What's wrong with that? And why are people so concerned with legality never up for changing it that way?

[Kali]

162. OMG

it's all their fault a bunch of racist fucks passed this law and YOU might have to show ID

OH MY FUCKING GOD

I need to get off the computer for a little while - but I think you are on the wrong website.

DU is filling up with right wing trolls.

[JI7]

169. wow, that's really fucked up, blame the victims rather than the racists

[crazyjoe]

6. wow, that's quite an accusation. Why were you even talking to such a racist?

[NNN0LHI]

8. I didn't say he was my friend

He was a racist who butted in on my conversation with another patron.

You think you never talked to a racist before?

Don

[William Z. Foster]

87. how can it be avoided?

It certainly cannot be avoided here.

If we didn't talk to racists, we would hardly be able to talk to anyone. If we didn't talk to them, there would be no hope of change, either.

[Goblinmonger]

5. How about get pissed at a stupid law.

Sure they are breaking a law. One that makes no sense.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. You do realize that the only reason there are 'illegal' immigrants is

because of the racist quota system for legal immigration - can't have to many dark-skinned people coming into the country all at once, you see. Has NOTHING to do with job availability (we always need far more workers than legal immigration allows). It's all about the "ability to assimilate", meaning the ability to look like the people who designed the Eurocentric quota.

Indeed, treating undocumented workers as criminals creates a criminal class, because it gives them no option but to deal with real criminals.

The real crime was in passing NAFTA without simultaneously creating an open border. We wrecked the Mexican economy for the benefit of international corporations, and the immigrant migration is the direct result.

From the very first restriction on immigration in the end of the 19th century, the law has been designed to maintain the primacy of North Europeans in America. It is, and always been, racist to limit the opportunities of this country to one race.

IMMIGRANTS are the backbone of this country. Legal or otherwise.

[emilyg]

19. I'm white. My family and I

waited almost 5 years to come to this country legally.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Good for you.

But some people get too hungry to wait for five (or if they are well tanned, considerably more) years.

[blondeatlast]

36. C'mon, you have to know she crossed the blazing hot Sonoran desert on foot for those five years.

Where, for the love of all that is good, is your compassion for this unfortunate Anglo (of which I am one as well, before I get charged with something ugly)?

[emilyg]

39. Actually we crossed the ocean when

our time came.

[blondeatlast]

43. So did my ancestors. They remembered to bring their empathy (and sense of humor) with them.

They cried when the saw the Statue of Liberty. Poor fools, they believed what Emma Lazarus said.

We came from Ireland, btw.

[Dappleganger]

47. Mine rowed across the Atlantic in a potato.

They soaked the inside with whiskey and fed it to the babies to keep them from crying.

Srsly. ;)


*that's my Tracy Morgan is an Irishman impression*

[emilyg]

48. Mine also believed in laws.

[blondeatlast]

53. Mine didn't. they were Irish. They weren't wanted here either. Shall I pack now? nt

[William Z. Foster]

90. hmmm

What laws? The laws they were escaping from in the old country? The laws here we CLAIM to follow and honor here, or the laws the way they are actually enforced?

The laws as they are being interpreted and enforced right now right here by this government???

Are those the "laws" we should "honor?" I do not believe in those "laws." Do you? Law that contradicts the Bill of Rights, law that legalizes torture and preemptive war and rendition and detention and confiscation and random stops and no oversight for public health and safety, or enforcement against corporate predators?

Those laws???

There are immigrants who came here to escape and be free from persecution and tyranny, and there are a few who came here for the freedom to persecute and dominate others. I hope your ancestors were in the first category. If not, then none of what we are saying here will resonate with you.

[treestar]

158. Mine didn't.

At least one came when he was not supposed to.

So I guess you're a better person than me? It seems you were born to a nobler blood of people.

[emilyg]

38. We came after Hitler - you don't think we

were hungry and tired and beaten down? Respect for our new country to be made us wait.

[blondeatlast]

50. But it isn't okay for these immigrants to wait? Many, many want to stay--

oyur RACIST immigration laws don't allow them to.

But you really are adorable in your pretty ignorance. Keep it up.

[jberryhill]

80. Why? He wasn't here

If you were going after Hitler, you went to the wrong country.

[William Z. Foster]

93. that brings up a good point

Many people were turned away from this country and others before the war. They were sent back to their deaths. I would support people getting here any way they could, "legal" or not, wouldn't you have? Did your family think that at the time?

Germans after WWII had a fairly easy time, especially if they had money or technical abilities useful to the war industry here.

So your family learned obedience to and respect for the law in Germany in the 30's and 40's then?

[emilyg]

98. I assure you we are NOT German.

[William Z. Foster]

149. good

Then answer the question - would you have supported people getting out of Europe and coming here in the 30's any possible way they could?

Or should everyone have "believed" in the "law?"

[emilyg]

151. When I was very young I

didn't believe in the law so much. As I matured I came to realize that laws are very much ok.

forgot to answer your question. In the late 30's I was a toddler - have no idea how I would have felt.

[William Z. Foster]

168. seriously?

You have no idea how you would have felt about people trying to escape from Europe in the 30's? How do you feel about that issue now?

[JI7]

170. really, so you have no idea how you would have felt about slavery since you weren't around in those

days ?

[emilyg]

181. How can you even compare the two.?

[William Z. Foster]

185. how can you not?

It is only in retrospect - when it is too late - that we can see this?

[JI7]

196. it's already too late for them

for those who don't know look up "brisenia flores"

[William Z. Foster]

190. are you Danish?

You brought this up, otherwise I would not pursue this. I want to be sympathetic, and to understand your position.

Danes perhaps can make a case of obeying Danish law, but not German.

Norwegian? The Quisling government collaborated. Could Norwegian law then be respected?

French? The Vichy government collaborated.

Polish? The Poles were ruled by a fascist right wing government, and anti-Semitism was rampant.

Austrian? Austrians could argue that they were forcibly annexed and German law was imposed on them.

Dutch? Belgian? A case could be made that would support your position.

Czech? A case could be made for obeying Czech law, but not German.

The Italian, Hungarian, Slovakian and Rumanian governments collaborated.

Serbian? Croation? Greek? Albanian?

Perhaps a minority within Germany - Wendish? Rom?

Ruthenian? Hutsul? Moldavian? Finnish?

Are you from the Soviet Union?

[emilyg]

193. I'm Polish. Not all Poles

were antisemitic.

[William Z. Foster]

194. of course not

No problem. Thank you. The Poles suffered terribly. I am glad your family made it here. Had they come to Hamtramck in 1939, illegally, I would have harbored them if I possibly could.



on edit - I have to say, though, that this country had a very lenient immigration policy for all of those leaving communist countries during the cold war - still does for Cubans. That had to do with military considerations, not some reverence for any law, or fairness, or anything else. Glad your family made it, but we cannot help but point out that they had a distinct advantage that today's immigrants who are under assault do not have.

[treestar]

159. OK, so you've brought up Hitler

Say it is 1935 and I am Jewish and I come here illegally. Wrong, am I?

I mean, I did disobey the LAW.

[JI7]

173. immigration laws allowed more whites to come but i guess it's the law

to you

[emilyg]

174. If you don't like a law - work

on changing it, not breaking it.

[JI7]

175. laws that discriminate should be broken, not surprised you would respond with that shit

[emilyg]

176. Break all the laws you want. I will not.

[JI7]

178. you thought it was wrong for people to hide Jewish people in their homes during Hitler's days ?

after all it was illegal .

[emilyg]

179. It was not illegal - what the Nazis

ordered was not law in my country. My grandmother and Mother hid many Jews.

[William Z. Foster]

183. then they must have thought about this issue

They must then have thought about this issue in ways that you now refuse to do.

Why was that not "law in your country?" Because the Germans were occupying your country? So then you would have obeyed the law if you were in Germany or if the government in your country installed the same laws? Upon what basis do you make a determination about which laws should be respected and which not?

[emilyg]

184. I have no idea what I would

have done had I lived in Germany. Comparing todays illegal immigration problem to WW2 is just insane. imo

[JI7]

186. you are the one who keeps bringing up the law, there are laws that are unjust

such as laws that discriminate.

immigration laws did discriminate against non white immigrants. you talk about how you came here legally and all that shit. when you benefited from laws that discriminated against non whites. and you continue to support that shit.

[emilyg]

187. Then work your tush off to

change the law. I'm going to bed - this granny is tired. 'nite.

[William Z. Foster]

191. often that means breaking the law

As in sitting in a whites only section of a diner or a bus.

[JI7]

195. yeah, and she would just tell you to change the law first

such bs.

i guess it's easy to say when you aren't the one being discriminated against.

but not surprised coming from her.

[William Z. Foster]

211. well I appreciate it

At least she is hanging in there and being honest. I got a nice pm.

If you survived the war in Poland, and your parents went through the procedure - they have no way to know the bigger picture - and they got here...

Of course there are a bunch of issues - if your family hid people, would that not transfer to having sympathy for the immigrants here? Which law was being respected by her family? German law? No, they didn't respect that - because that was "their" law and not "our" law. Of course, were they living in disputed territories that were mostly populated by Germans, then it could be argued that the nationality of the law was not relevant. German law would be the law. Then we would have to look at the morality of the law to judge whether to respect it or not, rather than the nationality. Polish law? What was Polish law at that time - 1950? - regarding leaving? Or did American law only get respected - because there was a promise of a better life in America, and because America was the "winner" in the war.

Then we have the issue of refugees from communist countries being fast-tracked to citizenship here, no matter anything else. But if it is your family fighting for survival, finer points like that may be lost on you. So why not then see that today's immigrants are fighting for their families, fighting for survival and be sympathetic?

Who knows what her parents told her? Who knows how accurate or knowledgeable what her parents said was?

Her family was suffering. They were welcomed, desired, accepted, validated by America, and "America" must have loomed as quite a contrast to what they had known. "America wants us, America says we are OK, America will save us, America says we are good and right and the Nazis and the communists are bad and wrong. We humbly petitioned, and they answered and said 'yes.'"

Now there are people who are not being officially welcomed - who are "horning in" on the goodness, the validation, that was bestowed upon her family - stealing it in a way, stealing something that is central and vital to her family's history and mythology.

I think there are all sorts of unexamined and undisclosed issues at play here. That is probably true for most people here on most issues. This person is at least talking and sorting through things.

[William Z. Foster]

188. no one would

I would, however compare Germany in 1932 to the anti-immigrant hysteria here today. I can document the similarities, as all thinking people with even a superficial knowledge of history should be able to do.

By the time the war started, it was far, far too late. You don't wait until the house burns down to realize you need a smoke detector and a local fire department to call in case of emergency. Everyone know the house was a firetrap in retrospect. We wouldn't say "you can't compare those frayed wires, overloaded circuits and faulty heater to a terrible house fire" would we?

It is unreasonable to expect as much diligence and foresight on racial hatred and mob hysteria as we would on protecting our home from the unlikely event of a fire?

[treestar]

154. Or there is no opportunity to even wait that 5 years!

The illegal immigrants will never be legal under the restrictions in the system. Legal immigration is just for the middle class, you see. It's those damn poor brown people who come illegally!

[emilyg]

180. We have European friends who are

waiting.

[William Z. Foster]

192. so would many in Latin America

If such a thing were possible for them.

Where in Europe? I think that is critical to understanding your position on this.

[Berserker]

70. What

You mean you came here legally? Welcome to America and I mean that. I respect you.

[JI7]

172. Immigration Laws in those days allowed more whites to come than non whites, it was based on racism

you had an advantage over non white immigrants.

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. Isn't cultural diversity one of the reasons for allowing immigration?

24% of immigrants are from one country.

[Berserker]

72. Immigration YES

Illegal immigration NO.

[William Z. Foster]

210. merely a talking point

This is not an argument, it is merely a talking point. It has been countered many times, thoughtfully, rationally and persuasively. Address the counter-arguments, if you can. All you are doing is repeating a moronic talking point, hoping it will stick in people's minds. That is destructive to any possibility for intelligent and rational discussion on this important issue.

[treestar]

160. No. Immigration just happens

It caused great cultural diversity in the US. So what if 24% this year or whatever come from one place? That's the place the migration is from, as if once was from Ireland, and Southeastern Europe (and the preexisting natives were just as worried about the influx of people who were different, their rhetoric was practically the same).

[terrapinwelcher]

63. So Then What Is Mexico's Excuse?

Their immigration laws are far tougher than ours are. Hell, most countries have far tougher immigration laws than the United States. All some people are asking is that immigration be done legally. I think it is complete bullshit that progressives like me are tarred and feathered as right wing nut jobs because we support legal immigration only. Who are the real knee-jerk nut jobs? How about people like Eric Holder and Janet Napolitano who bashed the AZ law only to admit that they hadn't read the thing? Our party leaders want illegal Mexican immigrants (and yes, that is where the greatest number are from in this country) for future votes. The repugs want them for cheap labor for big business. Both sides are corrupt on this issue.

[Berserker]

67. Welcome to DU

You rock!

[jberryhill]

73. Obviously, they failed at keeping out Mexicans /nt

[terrapinwelcher]

78. You Got Me There

[jberryhill]

85. So, then if you want to follow Mexico's model, then we let all Mexicans in

The best thing is - they are already Americans.

[RaleighNCDUer]

120. Ah, since when do illegal immigrants vote?

I've never understood that bullshit argument.

[terrapinwelcher]

124. You Must Be a Blind Party Loyalist Then

Do illegal immigrants themselves actually vote? Probably, but probably not in significant numbers. The voter bloc comes from those that are given amnesty like under Reagan as well as from offspring of illegal immigrants that are granted citizenship from being born here. Please tell me that you aren't so knee-jerk in your thought process that you don't see that our party has a vested interest in illegal immigrants just as the repugs do, only for different reasons. If they didn't, then they would be on my side since most registered Democrats hold my position (as does the population in general). You need to really think outside of the box of "our side is completely pure and can do no wrong".

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

161. And they can enforce them, because no one wants to go to their countries

We live in a country people want to come to. Different problem.

[Berserker]

68. Bullshit n/t

[fleabert]

105. well said! this is the truth that so many wish to ignore or deny...thank you for saying it. nt

[Confusious]

109. ???

we always need far more workers than legal immigration allows

I have NEVER see that. For my forty years, there has always been unemployment, and it just get worse.

The real crime was in passing NAFTA without simultaneously creating an open border. We wrecked the Mexican economy for the benefit of international corporations, and the immigrant migration is the direct result.

Don't know if you noticed, but we did a 360 with NAFTA and put the broomstick in our own ass with that one.

[Goblinmonger]

143. I guarantee you that anyone who wants work

can go up to ND this summer and hoe beets and do other field work that is currently done my migrant (read: Mexican) workers. Go ahead. Let them know. Tell them to drive up there and work the field in 90+ degree weather with no real trees for shade and horrible humidity. Probably don't want to do THAT job do they? How about picking strawberries in California.

Yeah there's unemployment, but there are plenty of jobs that a lot of people don't want to do.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

136. I've got family in Europe that has been trying for decades to come here legally.

So, yeah, to say it's racist or due to dark skin is really missing the point. The quotas need to be raised, period. Let's not unnecessarily complicate the issue.

[emilyg]

171. Thank you.

[EFerrari]

177. There is no comparison between the effect of US policy in Europe

and the effect of US policy in Mexico.

There are not hundreds of years of exploitation.

Are there?

Yes, this is about racism. Let's not overlook the obvious.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

201. I'm not sure you want to make that argument.

Don't make the mistake that all of Europe is England or Germany. A lot of Europe can be every bit as bad as Mexico.

[EFerrari]

202. But I'm not making the argument that all of Europe is England or Germany.

I read "Angela's Ashes". :)

But you don't see Joe Arpaio parading undocumented Irish immigrants around in pink underwear.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

203. I wouldn't exactly call Joe Arpaio emblematic of US immigration policy.

I'm not even sure if I'd call him emblematic of our immigration enforcement, frankly, although you could well make the case.

[EFerrari]

204. He's a caricature but caricatures work because they are founded on truth.

When the neos march, they don't say, "And Europeans must go too!".

The anti-immigrant movement is fueled by the white power groups in this country to the point that if you listen to their chants, you'll be shocked as I was at how many of them you recognize because so many people are parroting the same ideas.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

205. Well, I don't disagree with that.

I think you're using the concepts of the "movement", "enforcement", and "policy" interchangeably, when each are substantially and tangibly different. The movement is almost definitely racist. The enforcement has a spotty track record, thanks to the Arpaios of the world. The policy - which is what I'm arguing - is not in and of itself racist. The quotas affect people from all over the world, of all backgrounds and races. Mind you - I'm referring to U.S. policy, not Arizona policy. Arizona policy I would argue is definitely racist. That's the point, and that's why I think we're talking to two different things here.

[EFerrari]

206. I see those three on a clear continuum.

And while we excoriate the Republicans in AZ, they are not as far out of the mainstream as we'd like to think -- witness the 8 or 9 other states that are preparing similar laws.

But to get back to my original thought, I don't think there is a European country that the United States has trampled as badly and as long as it has trampled Mexico, most of Central America and a good deal of South America.

[stevenleser]

150. Nope, there is another reason in addition to the one you mentioned.

They prop up the economy considerably. They make various goods and services cheaper that the rest of us consume.

You will all soon see with Arizona what happens when undocumented aliens abandon a state or local economy en masse. I just wish there was some way I could short an entire states' economy.

[emilyg]

18. Thank you. I'm a legal immigrant.

[historian]

29. I too am a legal immigrant

and it took me 2 years to finally obtain my green card. The question is not whether one likes or dislikes Mexicans it's whether we have a law or not.

[terrapinwelcher]

62. Seems Pretty Damned Simple, No?

[EFerrari]

65. Does it ever occur to you law and order Democrats that in order to become a legal immigrant

first you have to stay alive?

[terrapinwelcher]

69. Huh?

[William Z. Foster]

95. stay alive

Life and death - that is what millions around the world are facing every day while smug, arrogant and comfortable people here debate their fate.

[terrapinwelcher]

113. Sorry William

But there's not enough room to take all of the world's refugees at this point. The Mexican border is a sieve and we have plenty of Americans who are hurting right now as it is and who are just trying to survive themselves. If that is what is "smug" and "arrogant", then it seems to have taken on a new meaning in my lifetime. However, it appears to me that your post meets those qualities though.

[EFerrari]

123. This isn't about "all of the world's refugees". This is about economic

refugees in Mexico created by our regional policy. You don't like them coming here, change the policy that throws them off their farms and that helps steal elections from reformers. The "world" didn't do that. The American government did.

[terrapinwelcher]

127. Hold On There Doggie

The labor issue is resolved with a simple guest worker program for ag concerns that protects the workers and denies citizenship status to them, their families and future family members born in the U.S. as well. But to blame us for the almost two centuries of corruption that is Mexico's independent government is a joke. The corrupt corporatocracy that runs the country is the problem. Us being a safety overflow valve for their unwanted and uneducated citizens only perpetuates the corruption. I shared this with a Hispanic friend of mine who is a first generation American (from Mexico). The easiest way to solve the Mexican problem is to put in a wall that is heavily guarded by armed forces with no tolerance for coming across it. Within 15 years, the pressure would build up so great in Mexico, that there would be a people's revolution. But as long as we let the corrupt Mexican government off of the hook, they will continue to exploit their own citizens. Why should we be a party to that corruption?

[EFerrari]

131. LOL. "The corrupt Mexican government" is exactly the government

ours wanted there. Bush paid good money for that president and despite the fact that the people were protesting their stolen election on the street from July to December, by God, that's the president they got.

"Why should we be party to that corruption?" -- precisely. Not only are we party to it, our government insists on it and tax payers pay for it.

[terrapinwelcher]

132. Two Things

1. It was corrupt before Bush.
2. It is time to move on. Bush is no longer in the WH, thank God. What are we going to do about it now? If your answer is to open the borders, then we have no more basis for discussion unless you can provide a reasoned argument as to how that will change the problem in Mexico. Like I have already posted, both parties want to maintain the status quo, but for different reasons.

[EFerrari]

133. "It was corrupt before Bush".. Yes, we've been neighbors a long time.

"What are we going to do about it now?"

Well, the Mexican people are still NOW dealing with the corrupt bastard whose policies have spurred all kinds of violence that people are fleeing from and no economic development. But, let's forget about that since it doesn't affect you. Oh, wait. It does. You don't like "illegals" coming here.

And I have news for you: until we change our regional policies, the border will not contain the flow of refugees out of Mexico and Latin America. Talking about "open borders" in this situation is like talking about heating your home when the roof is on fire.

I've been trying to figure out how much it costs you and me for our government to drive these people north. We pay for the fake "War on Drugs" which is basically about bribes and counter insurgency and guarding our oil under their soil. We give "military aid" and we have bases all over Latin America. Our military is used to prop up corrupt governments that mistreat the people in favor of multinationals who ruin these places. USAID pumps all kinds of money into right wing governments and to destabilize democratic governments. Seriously, I want to do the math. It must cost us a LOT to get these people up here so you can complain about them. Much more than dinner and a movie. ;)

[terrapinwelcher]

140. I'm Not Sure About Your Conspiracy Theories

But I do agree that the so-called "war on drugs" it a complete and utter failure.

[EFerrari]

144. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's our policy.

You can go to the State Department site and look up the money they allocate for "building democracy" via USAID and NED and then track that money to opposition groups. You can probably go to the Pentagon site and check out our facilities in the region, too, including the seven new ones we will be using in Colombia. And why are we giving "military aid" to Peru? No one is threatening Peru. That money and those weapons are used by the government to keep the population in line when they protest their own exploitation by mining companies that have bribed the government. You get the idea.

I wish it were a conspiracy theory, seriously.

[Goblinmonger]

145. You seriously want a wall?

Seriously? A la Germany? That is just fucking ridiculous in this day and age. Why not have one with Canada, then, too. They can come across the border pretty easily.

If the border is a sieve, then there is no border. THEY aren't the reason for our economic problems right now, so what's the big deal. Open up the borders. It should have been done with NAFTA anyway.

[terrapinwelcher]

163. First of All

East Germany's wall kept their citizens in. It was not designed to keep the people of West Berlin out. Secondly, the wall simply symbolizes in a very visual way the policy of no exceptions for illegal immigration. The point is that if they cannot emigrate from Mexico to the U.S., then their corrupt government will be forced to deal with them, likely through insurrection. Lastly, illegal immigration from Canada is hardly on the magnitude of the flow from Mexico (on the order of 8 million plus from Mexico versus approximately 70,000 from Canada). Any wall for Mexico would be on a smaller border and for an inflow of over 100x that of Canada. That doesn't mean that Canadians shouldn't be stopped from illegally immigrating here. All illegal immigrants should be stopped. But you focus on your biggest problem first.

[EFerrari]

189. There is no wall that will protect you from the consequences of bad policy.

This isn't 16th Century China.

[terrapinwelcher]

200. Legal and Limited Immigration

Is "bad policy"?

[EFerrari]

207. No. But destablizing democracies in Latin America to benefit

multinationals is. If you only look at when people cross the border, you miss the bigger picture.

John Pilger: The War on Democracy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148#

[emilyg]

182. +1

[RaleighNCDUer]

134. Thank you.

It's good to know that someone else here gets it.

[EFerrari]

146. People never talk about that part of the story, do they?

Even someone as gifted as Thom Hartmann never seems to connect our LatAm policy with waves of immigrants. It's sort of bizarre, when you think about it.

[treestar]

155. There's always been room

That's the way the US is.

It's not a closed society, like the USSR.

[William Z. Foster]

94. that is nice

Poor illiterate indigenous people cannot get green cards in 2 years. You say this as though you suffered or made some sacrifice.

If there is a way to get a green card in two years, millions of people would like to know that trick.

It is not whether or not we "have a law" rather it is a matter of having laws that help the wealthy and the white and punish and restrict the poor people and the people of color.

[RedRoses323]

112. Reality is a bitch for some...

:toast:

[county worker]

31. NO!

I don't give a shit how they got here, the drive is in all of us to better ourselves and our loved ones. I can't fault anyone for doing what I would do if I were in their place!

[tekisui]

60. No distinction.

Some are lucky.

The others are proof of how in-effective and out-of-touch our system is.

[sudopod]

148. nm feeding the fail. nt

[treestar]

152. I still don't hate the illegal immigrants

And think they should be legalized.

[pampango]

11. You must hate "them". "They" are not "us".

"They" used to be Blacks or gays or maybe Eye-talians.

My dad - a life-long republican but good guy (hey, he was my dad) - always said he didn't hate Blacks, but didn't want them to move into the neighborhood simply because it would hurt property values, iow hit him in the pocket book. (Of course, there may have been a little racism there too, but if so, he did a very good job over the years of hiding it from us.)

Most people will tell you that they don't hate immigrants just the economic (pocketbook) effect that they seem to have. Immigrants weren't a big deal in suburban Chicago back in the 60's and 70's. If there had been a lot of immigrants, I'm sure my father would have said the same thing about them that he did about Blacks.

[EFerrari]

14. Laura Flanders talked to a new recruit for the Conservative Citizens Council

(which is a hate group) and he argued down to the ground that neither he nor the neo-Nazi who recruited him were racists. He said the issue was the economy.

lol

[Taitertots]

16. You sure convinced him

Hating a group of people and wanting them to abide by our immigration laws are not the same thing. It was the end of the conversion because no one wants to talk to someone who is irrational and accusing them of being racist. Stick your fingers in your ears and scream racist racist racist, and no one is going to want to talk to you.

Do you hate everyone in prison?

[EFerrari]

20. I was just saying that I heard a new member of the Conservative Citizens Council

make this exact argument. Thanks for the illustration.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Like the certain politicians say they do not hate gay people

they just think we are so inferior that straights need to control our family groupings for us, and that God loves us less than them? Anything like that?
Sounds like you met Tim Kaine to me.

[blondeatlast]

25. But damn if some people tried--right here in this thread. DU is a, well,

fascinating place sometimes.

[NNN0LHI]

34. Oh, I knew it was coming

They can't just can't help themselves.

Don

[JI7]

198. if you look at their post history not surprising

[county worker]

28. You are born into a race or sexual preference and many other things you can't change.

You were not born with hate or prejudice or racism or homophobia or xenophobia. They are learned and can be unlearned. You can't change your race or sexual preference so if there is to be justice here the haters, racists, homophobes and xenophobes have to change not the other way around.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. Wouldn't the obvious retort be...

...you can choose to break or not break a law?

just sayin'

BTW - I'm for open borders because many "illegal" immigrants are being exploited for slave labor up to and including being chained and beaten. Get them on the books and they don't have to live in the shadows where they are easily exploited.

[county worker]

61. When people come here out of desperation they are not thinking about the law.

[Berserker]

74. When I go to a

grocery store and all that food is on the shelves and I am hungry and out of desperation I take it and run out the door am I thinking about the law? FUCK YES

[county worker]

77. no comparison

If you don't see that I have nothing to offer you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

119. Sometimes RWers feel desperate enough to steal elections

just sayin'

[RaleighNCDUer]

121. Obviously, you've never been in such a situation or you would know

the answer is FUCK NO - all you think about is HUNGER.

Trust me on this.

[Kali]

165. if I was truly hungry and desperate? fuck no

the law takes a distant back seat to real hunger

have you ever felt hunger? I haven't, and yet I KNOW I wouldn't give the law a second thought if my kids were hungry and I needed to feed them. I would do WHATEVER I needed to.

[Mojeoux]

40. Spanish people lived on the North American Continent since BEFORE the Mayflower!

People forget that or they were never taught properly about the history of our land.

[Berserker]

75. Why stop there

lets go further back.

[SwampG8r]

91. your land?spanish land?

wonder where all the original folks went
oh thats right the spanish invaded them without asking if they could come in
killed them all and stole all their stuff
if the fact that they even speak spanish in north america doesnt act as evidence in favor of STRICT immigration laws i dont know what would
spanish people sheesh

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mojeoux]

41. Spanish people lived on the North American Continent since BEFORE the Mayflower!

People forget that or they were never taught properly about the history of our land.




:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:

[Nuclear Unicorn]

49. Yes, well...

...the Conquistadors don't exactly have a sterling history.

Just because you've been screwing over the natives longer doesn't necessarily make one more entitled.

[Mojeoux]

59. Truley true

In Santa Fe, sometimes there are fights in the bars about who's taking land from who.

The neighbors I lived near in Northern New Mexico were very isolated. Their ancestors came from Spain, not with the conquistadors, but from the prisons of Spain and from family scandals like Australia.

Their job was to make the natives build churches. They did.
They also brought with them this BIZARRE mutation of Catholicism, called Penetente. (pen uh ten' tay)
This is way up in the Sangre De Cristo Mountains, like 7 8 thousand ft.

On every good Friday a member of the community, was KILLED on a cross like Christ. Along with two others, the guy , who was chosen for his Christ-like ways, would carry a Huge cross up to the foot of Truchas Peak and allow himself to be crucified.
It all stopped when NM was made a state. From then on the guy was tied on, left for 3 days and let down.

How amazing huh?

[EFerrari]

102. Unless you are "the natives"?

Mexico's population is 83% mestizo, which means mixed blood, indigenous and European.

[Confusious]

110. Yea, they were busy enslaving the indians

Putting them to work mining gold. I think the average SLAVE lived 6 months, probably less.

[minavasht]

44. So when a cop writes you a ticket

he does it because he hates you??????

[Motown_Johnny]

52. it seems all law enforcement must be motivated solely by hate

[emilyg]

54. Of course.

:sarcasm:

[Berserker]

76. OH come on

lets say it. It's because you are brown for Christs sake, this is DU.

[EFerrari]

103. You can't be comparing destroying the life of a human being

with getting a parking ticket, right? Because that's the kind of thing that they do over at those hate sites that claim only to hate Mexicans because of the economy.

[Confusious]

111. Which one would that be?

The immigrant or the American? The one who works cheap and gets the construction job and gets treated like a slave, or the American citizen who can't feed his family because he can't afford to work at the wages the illegal immigrant takes?

Or maybe the teenager, who'd like to go to school, but he has to work. All the menial jobs which teenagers used to take are taken by illegal immigrants.

bill mahr used the busboy as an example, saying illegal immigrants took those jobs. When I was a teenager, a friend worked as a busboy. Teenage unemployment in the United States is 20%+.

[EFerrari]

126. The answer is obviously both.

But since "illegals" are evil, most people never get around to figuring out that our government colludes with corporations -- like Dole -- to screw these folks at home and to screw us both when they come up here. It's not rocket science but it appears that deportation fantasies are more interesting that following the money.

[treestar]

156. No.

People who are speeding and violating traffic laws are a danger to others. An immediate danger.

Immigration is a civil matter; we have a bad law that depends on self enforcement for the most part, which will not work and would not have worked on the European migrants of earlier eras, either.

[gleaner]

56. If that is his idea of not hating ....

Can you imagine what he does to his friends? What a hypocrite. Beautiful response NNN0LHI. I will cherish it. ;)

[lonestarnot]

66. Right on Don!

[4lbs]

86. Well, I'll believe that AZ law doesn't mostly target Latinos when I see a foreigner that has

blond hair, blue eyes, and white skin stopped and asked for ID/papers/proof of citizenship after being overhead speaking with a British accent.


Until then...


Este ley es muy malo y un ejemplo de discriminación.

[blondeatlast]

115. Nailed it. Steve Nash has "joked" that he doesn't worry about being

targeted--he's Canadian.

[Maru Kitteh]

96. excellent. I think I'll put that in my powderhorn if you don't mind.

well done indeed.

[donheld]

107. I've had the same argument with Democrats

like some of the ones in this thread.

[Lost4words]

116. Bravo Bravo Bravo! +1 nt

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

135. That mistake on your part can be easily corrected.

Be patient. 30 minutes or your money back.

[blondeatlast]

137. Have I told you lately that I love you?

Brilliant. :rofl:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

138. (Gets idea to fly up and meet blondeatlast in person)

(Checks profile)
(Gets sad)
(Offers solidarity)

[blondeatlast]

139. No kidding--I'm wondering how to boycott my son and I, actually. BTW, you called it.

Pizza!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. My spider sense seldom fails me.

[myrna minx]

141. Lol.

:rofl: