Do too many people go to college? Maybe

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/education/2273316,CST-NWS-college14.article

May 14, 2010

ASSOCIATED PRESS

The notion that a four-year degree is essential for real success is being challenged by a growing number of economists, policy analysts and academics. They say more Americans should consider other options such as technical training or two-year schools, which have been embraced in Europe for decades.

As evidence, experts cite rising student debt, stagnant graduation rates and a struggling job market flooded with overqualified degree-holders. They pose a fundamental question: Do too many students go to college? snip

Spending more time in school also means greater overall student debt. The average student debt load in 2008 was $23,200 -- a nearly $5,000 increase over five years.

----------------------------------

When I graduated high school the only people that I knew who went right on to college were going to become doctors, lawyers and other professional people. You could hire into one of the union factories right out of high school and be making top money(Union wages), in no time. The kind of money that one paycheck would let a family live decently and stay out of debt if you watched your money close. Hardly anyone had a charge card back then. About the only way I could get my hands on a little cash for emergencies was to kite a check at the grocery store and then run to the bank to cover it by payday. Used to take about a week for a check to clear back then. There were no pay-day loan joints back then either. Just loan sharks who would break your legs if you didn't pay on time. I never messed with them.

Don

[Brickbat]

1. I get tired with efforts to paint a college degree as the culmination of one's educational career.

The key is keeping middle-class jobs that don't need a college degree -- trades and manufacturing -- in this country, and then NOT requiring advanced degrees for jobs that don't need them -- forest management, for one.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. 26,000/yr current stats.

Workers with a high school degree earned an average of $31,286 in 2007, while those with a bachelor’s degree earned an average of $57,181.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/013618.html

over 40 years that is $1,040,000.

[Dappleganger]

4. And how many of those w/degrees are currently employed?

And employed in their field of study? How much are their student loans?

[Davis_X_Machina]

5. "employed in their field of study" is a chimera....

...Ted Turner was a Greek major, e.g., thereby working 'outside his field of study' his whole life. This of course left him penniless, and unable make a meaningful contribution.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Good question, glad you asked.

[notesdev]

12. It's not the earnings that counts

it's the net after paying the student loan payments

[CBR]

13. I will get my PhD next May and my student loan payment will

be $97 a month for 7 years. 10 years of education basically free.

[Cant trust em]

15. Is the financial aid situation for PhDs much different than a Masters?

I'm going into a Masters program this fall and it's going to be entirely debt financed.

How do PhD studies usually get paid for? It seems unrealistic to me to take on 5 years of student loan debt while making no money.

2 years isn't so bad, but 5 would kill me.

[CBR]

23. Yes. Every student in my PhD program is financed through

an teaching/research assistantship and/or fellowship. Some students take out additional funding to pay for living expenses but the majority do not. The funding assistance is guaranteed for three years but you can get it for a fourth. I was just notified that I was awarded a research assistantship for my fourth year so that I do not have to take out loans to cover living expenses. The other three persons going in to their fourth year also were notified that they had received fourth year funding.

[Cant trust em]

24. That's heartening.

I definitely have my eye on PhD work, but not as much as I have my eye on having kids and getting some economic stability.

[Bill McBlueState]

28. what field is this?

In my field, the department didn't admit you unless they were reasonably sure they could give you a tuition waiver and assistantship for the entire time it took you to complete the program. In the humanities, this was decidedly not the case. Humanities students usually worked off-campus service jobs on the side.

[CBR]

33. Public Policy. nt

[Cant trust em]

44. Great. I'm going to UCLA for my MPP this fall.

Where are you getting your PhD?

[notesdev]

16. Most people can't get that

or anything even close to that.

If you have a $100,000 student loan debt (which is not unusual for those with post-college degrees), at $97/mo. and a ZERO interest rate it takes 71 years to pay it off completely.

And nobody gets a zero percent interest rate. At merely a 1% interest rate, a person will never pay off that debt at that monthly payment.

[Cant trust em]

14. Interesting to see the minor benefit of master's over bachelors. nt

[RobinA]

39. I'm Here To Tell You!!! nm

*

[Silent3]

50. I don't know that I'd call 22% more "minor"

Of course if that Master's costs you a lot of money and two years delay before entering your new profession, that could significantly decrease the value of that gain.

I seem to have found my way into a career path where experience counts a lot more than one's degree, at least beyond the Bachelor's degree I have. A friend of mine who graduated from the same college, the same year as I did, went back later for his Master's degree. He's unemployed now, and was making a lot less than me even when he was working.

[Cant trust em]

51. My field is about the degree, for better or worse

I'm going into Masters of Public Policy school and the jobs that I want won't even look at you without the masters.

[Silent3]

53. If you can't even get a job at all without a Master's...

...then I'd say that in your particular field the difference in salary from Bachelor's to Master's is much larger than 22%. :)

My wife's job is the same. She's a librarian, and a Master's seems to be a minimum there too, which seems crazy given how crappy the pay is.

[Cant trust em]

54. Not that you can't get a job in the field, but there's a pretty solid ceiling.

Between research assistant and research associate the difference is more education.

I'm going to public policy school, so there's a decent chance taht I'll be in school for the long haul. But at least when I come out I'll be Dr. Cant Trust Em.

[Silent3]

38. Excellent

I'm making better than PhD money, even after taxes, with a "mere" Bachelor's degree. :)

My education wasn't that terribly expensive either, going to state universities and finishing in 1990 before tuition increases had gotten as insane as they've been these days.

[RobinA]

37. Well, I Have Masters

and I doubt I'll see $57k in my life time. I'm closer to the high school diploma average.

[Kat45]

70. Same here.

And I've been unemployed for over a year. I got all this education, and I find myself having to struggle to get low paying crap jobs.

[Brickbat]

45. But you know what? Money isn't everything. At least, it didn't used to be.

I know many, many people who are happy to work a blue collar job as long as they're done after eight hours in a day and have enough to spend two weeks in the summer at the lake and can take a day at the fishing opener and the firearms opener. There used to be a lot of those jobs. Now, not so much, and those people are out of luck because they don't want to have to spend more money to get a job that pays less.

[Warren Stupidity]

49. It may not be everything but it sure helps.

As you say, not so many jobs left for those without higher education. We are not going back to the 50's, those blue collar jobs are not going to suddenly reappear. For young adults the career choices without a college degree are pretty stark. Is college for everyone? no. Is a college education worth the investment in time and money? yes.

[yellowcanine]

20. Forest Management doesn't require an advanced degree? I beg to differ.

Forest Management is a discipline which requires a grounding in biology and ecology and a good grasp of research methodology and statistics. I want forest managers to have at least an M.S. degree and Ph.D.s for regional supervisors.

[Brickbat]

46. It didn't used to and our forests did just fine.

[RobinA]

35. Agree

The problem is that every POS job requires a Bachelors these days. Of COURSE people are going to go to college who wouldn't otherwise. The whole thing is out of whack. I have a Masters and I feel like it's worthless. And I need it to make $40,000 a year in my field. I wish I had been a plumber. Then I could afford to pile up the degrees, because I LOVE school.

[Brickbat]

47. I hear you.

Some people just do not want to go to college -- not because they're stupid or lazy, but because that's just not where there interest lies. Just like some people who get a BA don't want to get a Ph.D.

[murdoch]

68. I have gone back to school

I am going to a state school right now. My 4 year Bachelors will cost less than $30,000. I am majoring in Computer Science, a topic I enjoy. Actually, before I was laid off, I was making over $90,000 a year. I have learned a lot and it will open up my job prospects. Perhaps I will go on to get a Masters at some point. I have learned a lot about computers.

On a financial level, this is a fantastic financial investment for me, even though I'm in my late 30's. If I had to pay $80k-$120k for it, I am not so sure if it would be - it's not like I have that kind of money lying around anyhow.

[Brickbat]

69. I'm starting to think that private college tuitions might be the next "bubble" to burst.

I got a private liberal arts degree for about $45K. My alma mater now charges that PER YEAR. My degree is not worth that. Frankly, I wondered if it was worth that when I got it almost 20 years ago. Very sad.

Good luck with your schooling, and your prospects!

[Captain Hilts]

3. Yes. nt

[Ron Green]

6. I think one important question is what is the modern equivalent of the "college experience"

... that is, making new friends and learning to get along with them in a dorm setting, being exposed to Big Ideas and challenged to demonstrate at least understanding of them and perhaps even original thinking about them, learning to manage time in way not required throughout high school... and so on.

Perhaps the world of the Internets and smart-phones now provides the structure for growth into "educated" adulthood, I don't know.

[greencharlie]

60. hmmmm... is that worth 25K per year? nt

[Ron Green]

62. Maybe not, and that's the question. My tuition at a top-notch state university was $50.

Not per credit hour, but for the whole semester. I had the real "campus experience," and was able to pay for it with a part-time job and a small scholarship.

Now, I don't see that kind of value in the modern experience. Our relationships were face-to-face, and appointments were made 'way in advance. An old-school situation that was serious preparation for joining the "ruling class."

Perhaps that kind of college life is irrelevant now, and should be.

[WinkyDink]

7. If "college" solely meant "job-training", then, sure, go elsewhere. But there's supposed to be more.

Just more side-lining of the Humanities, ONLY the repositories of man's thoughts on the Human Experience. But who needs insight to the human condition, anyway? Waste o'time, right? I mean, WTH cares if you wandered lonely as a cloud, or if she walks in beauty like the night, or if the clock struck thirteen?

[Zoeisright]

8. No kidding. College teaches you how to think, learn, and reason.

And we need a whole lot more of that in this country.

[notesdev]

21. That's an ideal, not the reality

The reality is that there are colleges which actually manage to produce negative learning - people spending years at college and come out knowing less than they knew going in.

If colleges were doing the right thing for their students, the first thing they would teach them to think, learn, and reason about would be the massive debts they take on in exchange for a piece of paper.

[Cant trust em]

11. Are the life experiences worth the expense?

I’m not going to argue that college doesn’t provide a valuable set of experiences outside the classroom like meeting a diverse student body, engaging with professors, awesome keggers, etc. But should we be pushing all kids into taking the time and expense to get those experiences? Aren’t there other, cheaper and faster ways t build life experiences?

[WinkyDink]

17. I wasn't speaking of the "life experiences" of some 20-yr-olds; I referred to our collective wisdom.

[Cant trust em]

19. So you need to go to college to attain wisdom? nt

[mike_c]

10. as a university prof, I certainly do think too many people go to college...

...for too many of the wrong reasons. I don't think we should turn anyone away who's qualified and who wants an education, but making college a general job training program is a mistake, or at least the traditional liberal arts degree that's meant to support professional studies. I taught 150 zoology students this semester-- admittedly they're drawn from a variety of majors, but most are biology, zoology, botany, wildlife, or other allied life sciences majors. My gut feeling is the fewer than 20 percent will ultimately establish careers in this field, probably fewer than 10 percent. So is this experience serving them well?

The answer depends upon the context for the question. Does a biology or zoology degree serve the employment interests of someone who ultimately ends up in retail sales? We have a house guest who finished a degree in biology at a very expensive ivy league college a couple of years ago, who now works in a retail womens' clothing store, so the question isn't at all far-fetched. I think the answer is no.

On the other hand, is education universally empowering and enriching, to the degree that even retail clerks can find satisfaction studying biology? Of course. I went to college while in the midst of a printing and graphics career, twenty years or so ago. I studied biology, a field that had zero relevance to my work at the time. I ended up a professional biologist, but that's mostly a function of grad studies, not college. It was a wonderful personal experience that I'd repeat in a heartbeat, but college, at least, was not sufficient job training for this field or any other, really, and it certainly would not have been directly relevant to my prior working life.

[Cant trust em]

18. College education gives you options after graduation.

Whether that biology degree holder gets a job in biology is a different story, but without the degree they wouldn't have that shot. I'd rather be working in retail with a degree because I haven't been hired yet, than be workin in retail without the degree because that's the best job I could get.

[Dappleganger]

25. Working retail w/a degree and paying on your student loans?

This is the point...thousands of graduates with degrees are now working minimum-wage jobs at part-time hours w/no benefits and having to pay on their student loans. Tell me how that's a viable option.

[Cant trust em]

26. If they're working retail forever, then I'd say that we've got a bigger problem.

How many of these post-grads who are working crap jobs are going to be working crap jobs forever?

I worked at Best Buy and then part time as an office manager for two years right after I got out of school. Then I built up some experience and I got a better job.

[tonysam]

29. There are few jobs to be had now, of any kind. Nice to live in a bubble, I see. n/t

[Cant trust em]

30. So in the context of our current conversation, what's your point?

Don't go to school? Don't build any additional skills? Just hope the market gets better and then you can get a job?

[tonysam]

63. Listen. I did that fucking shit of going to school, getting "skills"

and I am fucking 55 years old and can't get work.

Don't you fucking DARE condescend to me. I've been fucking unemployed for two fucking years. I've done it.

Get a clue. A LOT of people are in my position. "Too old" to work, and too young to retire.

[Cant trust em]

65. I'm still not seeing what your point is.

Are you actually telling me that you think your situation would be better if you hadn't gone to school? I still think that people are better off getting some kind of new training or skill set even if it doesn't translate immediately to a job. At least then you've put your best foot forward.

Maybe if you say fuck a few more times then it will become clear to me.

[RobinA]

42. It's No Bubble

Times change. I graduated from college in 1980 into a similar economic situation. I got a retail job for awhile, got promoted because I had a (unrelated) degree and then got sick of it and moved on. I've made little money throughout my life, but I have managed to keep flexible enough to weather two lay offs, keep health insurance, keep myself in a decent, low mileage car, and stay sane. I'm not sure I would have been able to cultivate the same flexibility without the Bachelors and recent Masters.

One grandfather raised a family and put a son through medical school (no debt) without a high school diploma, the other raised two kids middle class and built a nice house after the kids were grown with a high school diploma. Both had jobs that would now require a college degree and houses that would now require a working wife.

[tonysam]

64. It is. The trouble is there aren't enough jobs for all these college graduates.

Only 30 percent of jobs require anything beyond a high school diploma. That's why the World Bank is trying to privatize public education worldwide and deskill teaching--higher education is perceived as a waste of money.

[eomer]

32. True, but the solution is to make education either free or inexpensive.

Having an educated citizenry... priceless!

[Dappleganger]

34. That's the key.

Just don't saddle people with such huge debts.

[mike_c]

43. bingo....

I agree, 100 percent.

[Warren Stupidity]

72. Agree 100%

Along with the rest of our public infrastructure, except of course for jails and bombs, we have allowed 30 years of disinvestment to wreck what we once had.

[tonysam]

27. The World Bank has a solution, and that's limit access to college

Why do you think there is a move to privatize public education worldwide? It's to limit college access because there are too few jobs for those who graduate. The World Bank and the neoliberals think education is a waste of money.

Better to force these people out after the seventh or eighth grade and require teachers to have little more than that in education since paying them as professionals is a waste of money.

[bobbolink]

55. I would like to see citizens in all walks of life knowing more about biology, history,

anthropology, etc.

Car mechanics, house painters, grocery produce stockers, .... Everyone.

What you have taught is never wasted, unless the student purposely wastes it, no matter what they do to support themselves.

Knowledge is never a waste.

[NNN0LHI]

22. I think a lot of confusion here comes from the idea that getting a job means you can't go to college

I watched a lot of guys work their way through college. Thats the way it used to be done. Working your way through college used to be a very common phrase. Some of us Union workers had employers who paid all our tuition. Here is an example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8329065

I worked right along several guys who went on to promising professional careers while making good money, raising a family, paying taxes and not getting into debt in the process. One of them became a lawyer. Good friend of mine. Still is. We threw a big party at work for him after he passed the Bar. And when he finished he didn't have any school debt. Thats the kind of opportunity everyone who doesn't have the finances but has the smarts and ambition should have.

I realize the lawyer is on the extreme side of this but I took a lot of college courses myself while working at Ford. Most were for my apprenticeship, but I took a lot of other classes on my own. I could have took almost any class I wanted to. For free. Just had to pay for my books. I never got any degree but if I would have took a few more classes I could have received one. Instead I started focusing on working overtime and getting prepared to retire at 48.

Don

[county worker]

58. I worked 40 hours as a waiter while going to college full time.

I could not do it now by any means.

[tammywammy]

31. Related thread: Doubters say college isn't for everyone

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8334275

[greencharlie]

36. I absolutely agree... nt

[Proud Liberal Dem]

40. Yeah, too many people go to college

Seriously,

:wtf:

:eyes:

Don't want to have too smart of a populace that Republicans and the sweet, intelligent, and always truthful group of reporters and propagandists at the Fox News network can't fool easy.

:sarcasm:

When did going to college go from being a near essential means of having decent wages and lifestyle- not to mention helping people become well-educated and well-rounded individuals to a "choice" that some people might be *needlessly* be buying into. What's left out there nowadays for high school graduates other than menial service/retail jobs? Why aren't there more jobs for people with college degrees? Where are the jobs and why aren't people asking more questions about THAT?

[n2doc]

41. A significant amount of post high school education is to make up for crappy K-12 ed

At least, the 2 year schools (junior colleges) seem to be mostly about teaching students the things they should have learned while they were busy studying for standardized tests.

[NNN0LHI]

67. I am not so sure about that

I didn't graduate very high in my class but I know damn well if I had the ambition to do so I could have ranked much higher. I seen other kids do it. They went to the same classes I did and some of them were some well educated kids when they graduated.

I had to go back to school after I graduated high school to get prepped well enough to pass the apprenticeship test at Ford. I flunked it the first time I took it. After the refresher courses in Algebra and Trigonometry at college I did fine. I know for sure that my teachers covered this same stuff in high school but I was too busy ditching class and hunting two legged deer at that time to absorb it. Probably lucky I graduated.

The learning was available if the student was interested.

Don

[izzybeans]

48. I think businesses need to reevaluate the real requirements of many jobs.

Many jobs that do not require college degrees functionally still are listed with a degree as requirement. They also need to stop outsourcing job training to the state and its schools. Take some responsibility for themselves, pick themselves up by their own boot straps and provide the employee training that their jobs require. I mean what type of Welfare Queen does such a thing?

[Raineyb]

61. You certainly have a point there.

When I was hired at my last job the requirements were a high school diploma. What the position entailed didn't change all that much but a couple of years later they wouldn't even consider a temp who didn't have a bachelor's degree for the same position I was doing and managed to get hired doing with just a High School diploma. When I got laid off no one cared all that much that I had 10 years experience I had no degree. The job requirements STILL haven't changed only what employers are demanding as far as education from potential employees. There's not a thing I could take in college that would make me any more qualified to perform that job than I was 11 years ago when I was hired.

[Juche]

52. Higher education has benefits beyond the degree

More education generally leads to higher voting rates, more willingness to follow a doctor's orders, less authoritarian worldviews, more interest in civics, you pay more in taxes but use fewer services, you have less trouble with the law, the unemployment rate is lower, etc.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/press/cost04/EducationPays2004.pdf

You could make the same argument about high school 80 years ago. Back then only 25% of people had a high school diploma. Now 70-90% of people do. Does that devalue the HS diploma? No.

[DailyGrind51]

56. I have 3 university degrees, yet I earn less than my auto mechanic!

"Blue collar" is the "new collar", "The world is full of educated derelicts."

[county worker]

57. I graduated with a degree in accounting. I am still working even though there is a recession.

If it wasn't for my degree and experience I doubt I'd be working.

It is one of the best things I have done in my life.

[JCMach1]

59. And Europe is doing so much better these days...?

One place they are doing better is taking care of more of the education burden for students! How about we work on that! Frakkin' economists

[MkapX]

66. Bad investment

The way i see it a 4 year degree just isn't worth the dept...espically when state college tuition cost is through the roof and the stupid politicians are doing nothing about it. Their is no point in getting a liberal arts degree just to find out that you can't get a job but now you have a debt to pay at a high 3.70% interest rate. It's great to learn about Shakespeare and different religions from around the world. It makes you a well rounded individual and not ignorant. But at the same time reading JR Tolkien isn't getting you a job. Colleges need to balance their electives with their core studies..or reduce their electives and focus on core studies. Their is no balance right now...it seems like your taking more classes on subjects that have nothing to do with your major!

After graduating from college with a BA i attended a 20 week IT boot camp and it's that training that is getting me a job now not my college degree. If i could take it all back i would of gone to a low cost community college, earn a associates degree in programming and then get in the market. I would of been out of college in 2 to 3 years and would of only had to pay 10,000 for school at most rather then 50K plus that i own in loans today. It's experience afterall that gets you jobs not a piece of paper that says your smart. Until politicians find a way to lower the cost of tuition and make it more affordable or go to a euro system where you go to college for free if you have the good grades, then i will continue to believe that 4 year universities are not worth it

[Warren Stupidity]

71. " a 4 year degree just isn't worth the dept" - yeah but

perhaps it helps with basic spelling, although it seems in your case perhaps not :-)

There are plenty of tech jobs that are not available without a 4yr technical degree. You can't even get in the door. Doesn't mean that you aren't able to do the job, it means that the position comes with a minimal educational requirement and they have plenty of resumes coming in that meet the minimal educational requirement, so without the degree you won't have a chance.