Dummy Bait: Wouldn't we complain if Bush did the same thing?

[gulliver]

If Obama does something bad that Bush/Cheney would have done, shouldn't we Dems/Progressives complain about Obama just as we would have complained about Bush? If some event happens, shouldn't we judge Obama's response exactly the same way we would judge Bush/Cheney's? Wouldn't it be a double standard if we did otherwise? Wouldn't it be hypocritical?

If you are thinking the answer to these questions is yes, then congratulations on your fair-mindedness. Unfortunately, I have found the correct answer in practice is usually no. It is only yes in theory. Most of the double standard accusations are phony.

Either we do it to ourselves or, more commonly, some clever person (on the left or right) jiggles the dummy bait in front of us and asks us to take a bite. Dems, Progressives, Liberals, etc., are all extremely susceptible to this kind of plastic worm. We suffer from paranoia about double standards; the other side thrives on them.

I think it helps to remember that Obama, openness, nuance, detail, and deep thinking are all compatible. Bush/Cheney? Not so much. So if someone says they think they see a double standard, or if you think you see a double standard, the question to ask is really "What are the exact details?" Is the first mile of the Obama Trail the same as the Bush/Cheney/GOP/Donner Party Trail? If so, what about the second mile? It's usually very different, and therefore no double standard applies.

[ixion]

1. Yes, it's utterly amazing how much is tolerated now that

the 'team' in the WH has changed. Things that used to inflame this board are now brushed off as a-okay.

The mind boggles at the hypocrisy.

[gulliver]

2. I'm arguing the opposite actually.

Sorry if you got the wrong idea, but what I am trying to say is that the very idea that a lot is being "tolerated" is basically wrong. People are seeing hypocrisy where none exists. People are seeing similarity between Obama and Bush actions that is only absurdly superficial.

[ixion]

3. Then I must disagree

Because I've seen a complete reversal. When Obama does it, it's okay. When Bush did it, all hell broke loose around here. That's a fact.

[Ready4Change]

9. Examples?

[Uncle Joe]

12. Here are a couple.

Run the rear view mirror ad until the 28 second mark.

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/rearview-mirror_ad/

Also the mandates to purchase "health" insurance from for profit corporations without a strong national public option or universal single payer health coverage would've given Cheney/Bush pup tents in their pants.

The threat against Net Neutrality first proposed by Bush and now with Obama's choice; as going in for the kill.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x533715

On Sunday, the Washington Post reported that the Federal Communications Commission is expected to abandon its pledges to protect Net Neutrality and to ensure universal, affordable broadband. The story cites anonymous insiders confirming that FCC Chairman Julius Genachowski is "leaning toward" siding with the most powerful phone and cable lobbyists on a crucial decision: whether the FCC will have any authority to protect an open Internet and make it available to all.

It is a testament to the phone and cable industry's overwhelming influence that they seem to have convinced the nation's communications agency to swear off authority to protect Americans' right to open communications. But it is stunning that Genachowski would even contemplate allowing it to stand, given President Obama's repeated pledge to ensure fast, affordable, universal Internet broadband for every American.

<snip>

In early April, a a federal appeals court ruled that, based on decisions by the Bush-era FCC, the agency lacks the authority to regulate broadband providers. In so doing, the court effectively handed control of the Internet to companies like Comcast, AT&T and Verizon -- allowing them to slow down or block any website, any blog post, any tweet, any outreach by a congressional campaign. The FCC no longer has the power to stop them.

[ixion]

14. Since Nov 08 I have seen people advocate:

- The hostile occupation of Afghanistan.

- Covert Drone attacks in Pakistan and Yemen.

- Numerous Bush-era domestic policies, either continued or defended.

- The continuation of the so-called 'wars' on terror and drugs.

- Black box sites world-wide still in operation. GITMO still in operation, and people still being detained w/o charges.

Uh, how many do I need to provide?

[Tailormyst]

18. It is because issues do not matter to these people

They are spectators watching the "sport" of Politics and nothing more.

[walldude]

5. Bullshit.

Absurdly superficial? Perhaps you missed the new CIA Death Squads? Assassinating an American citizen without a trial? Not only is it a violation of the Constitution but also a violation of one of the most basic tenants of Freedom.

How about the Extension of the Patriot Act? Not Repealing DADT? Offshore Drilling? Yeah that was a good announcement :eyes: Nuclear Power? Increased Troop levels in Afghanistan? Drone attacks in Pakistan? Yeah we should all just shut up an be happy that it's not a Republican doing these things. :eyes:

[Tailormyst]

19. None of these matter, what matters is cheering for his team.

[G_j]

4. nuance or no

it seems what you ask is to blur the lines to the point where we have no clear principles.

[zipplewrath]

6. I don't agree

I understand your point about the devil being in the details. But the opposite of that is the concept that one can rationalize their way into anything. You're looking for excuses in the details why retaining people at Gitmo is "okay" because he has long term plans to some how "make it right" in the future. Sorry, if it's wrong, it's wrong. Just because he does it wrong "differently" doesn't change the underlying problem.

[HopeHoops]

7. IBTL

[el_bryanto]

8. it's a matter of motives

Some trust Obamas Motives and assume that if he takes some action they don't agree with that he has a good reason for it. By the same token, Bush could take actions that were pretty nuetral, or even positive, and we would lay into him, assuming he had some ulterior motive (which was often the case, but still).

Bryant

[treestar]

10. Obama has one cover of protection

Bush started it. Whatever it was, Bush and his cronies made the mess.

Obama has to deal with it, keyboard warriors don't. I mistrust knee jerk conclusions Obama is the same as Bush.

[BeFree]

11. Yeah

The whole situation is like the oil gusher in the gulf.

Obama inherited the gusher of screwups left over from bushco and is working to cap it off against great pressure.

Is he moving fast enough? Hell no. But if he moved much faster the pressure just might implode the whole thing. What Obama is doing is building a containment dome. Well, he damn sure better be.

[katandmoon]

13. Why is the WH opposing the Fed audit? Why is Obama's DOJ giving Bush/Cheney a pass on their crimes?

Why does Obama hide behind Robert Gates re DADT? Why is Obama still pretending the "war on terror" has the slightest chance of being effective? Why is Obama's DOJ spying on citizens without warrants? Why did the WH put abstinence education funding back in the budget? Why does Obama hobnob with racist, sexist homophones like Rick Warren and Billy Graham? Why is the Obama administration about to cave on net neutrality? Why is Obama even still considering off-shore drilling? Why does Obama never miss an opportunity to belittle progressives and liberals?

How is that not exactly like Bush?

Why are you afraid to hold Obama to the exact same standard as Bush?

[Tailormyst]

15. You must resemble a pretzel after all that twisting.

Seriously. If you are supporting the man no matter how he does on important issues then you are little more then a spectator watching the "sport" of politics.

[AnArmyVeteran]

16. I agree, but I trust Obama to eventually do the right thing for people..

Bush & Cheney were nothing but whores to their corporate pimps. I knew they would never do anything for the benefit of human beings. While I can wince occasionally at something Obama does I still have faith in him as a leader. I had zero faith in Bush or Cheney, because they were not leaders. They were nothing but prostitutes selling out the people so corporations could profit.

Having said the above, President Obama could be an overnight hero to the hard working Americans if he virtually declared war on corporate irresponsibility. I believe statues would be erected while he was still in office if he purged his staff of people like Wall Street insiders and then directed congress to pass extremely tough laws to prevent another economic collapse. And Obama needs to direct new penalties to any executive of any firm that if they cause harm to people or damage the environment they will be facing prison time. Currently, corporate law insulates its leaders from personal liability. So they can wreck havoc against humanity and the environment and suffer zero consequences. Example: The BP executives won't lose a dime of their salaries, bonuses, stock options, etc... We need laws that would seize every dime they had to compensate those they harmed.

I am tired of a two-tiered justice system where the poor are subjected to one set of laws and the rich another. I wrote a column almost ten years ago entitled, "If you steal, steal BIG!" about how white collared criminals experience almost zero punishment when they commit a crime. In that same column I mentioned a poor guy who stole a candy bar and ended up in prison for life, because it was his 'third strike'. Corporations or their leaders accumulate NO STRIKES against them. Example (again): Even if a contractor kills our soldiers by electrocuting them in showers they designed, built and installed they keep getting more contracts from the government. Why? And what about that company that sided with a rapist and against the victim. They were allowed to apply for future government contracts too. We used to have a corporate death sentence where irresponsible corporations were broken up and sold off. That stopped when Reagan came into office. We need to bring those laws back to make our system a more just one and to protect people from vulturous businesses.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

17. Objectivity, principle, moral compass = "dummy" Good to know. Thanks.