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Boycotting Arizona is stupid. Do something productive and help us take back

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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:21 AM
Original message
Boycotting Arizona is stupid. Do something productive and help us take back
the state. Help us elect our democratic Attorney General Terry Goddard Governor. Terry is the sworn enemy of Joe Arpaio and would be a very good governor like his father before him.Terry is a Clean Elections candidate so you can't send him money but you can come here and volunteer for him. You can send money to Andrei Cherni, who is running for treasurer traditionally and Sam Wercinski, who is running for Sec. of State traditionally. Felicia Rotellini running for AG to replace Terry. She also needs donations. We have many local leg and senate candidates. On the federal level, Rodney Glassman needs money to run against Mccain. Don't hurt the decent citizens of Arizona. Many of us tried to prevent this from happening. We have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation along with the second highest foreclosure rates. Many of us cannot afford to move, and a boycott would accomplish nothing. We knew we had lost our buffer when we lost Janet Napolitano. Help us take back this state.
Arizona can be blue again. We had the first Hispanic Governor in the nation, Raul Castro. Don't let the bigots dictate our destiny. Don't boycott us, help us take back our state.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you - I am getting so fed up with all of this. We did not vote for Brewer.
We warned everyone that this would happen to our state when Obama took Napolitano. Now everyone wants to punish us more.
These damn budget cuts that Brewer has enacted has hurt my family personally and it's only going to get worse if there is a huge boycott of our state.

People forget that there are alot of progressives that live in Az as well.

Well good luck with this thread - I tried one of these last nite and it sunk like a brick in the ocean.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. And taking the most selfish view is going to help how?
You want US to do something for YOU but you want no problems, no sacrifices....? And you wonder why your me-me-me threads sink like a stone?
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. I didn't realize that asking for help to kick the racists out of office was selfish.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
54. WTF!
I am surprised at your comment.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #9
119. I'm supposed to sacrifice a home & eating....oh sure.
No problem.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #119
131. Isn't that what this law will mean for many people?
Maybe there's some way you could find a venue for your work that is supportive of this action so you won't be inconvenienced.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. I'm an artist who depends on the tourists to buy my work.
Inconvenienced...well I'm sorry. It's more than that. Talking about my survival.


Sure I have other venues but they are only part of my income....selling my work here is my main source.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Precisely. This is about survival. I hope your business doesn't suffer.
But as another poster said, it's likely that this boycott will not deter the anti-immigrant folks that go to Arizona in their RVs.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #132
139. Then you need to let your state know these things!
You need to let it be known that their stupid, racist law is going to kill an important part of their economic engine.

But please understand -- the boycott isn't what's hurting you, because it's a symptom of the real problem; systemic racism being raised to the level of established law.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
103. Very True
You didn't vote for Brewer, but the majority of the people of Arizona did vote for the asshats in the state legislature that first introduced the bill, and second had enough votes to get it to Brewer's desk so that she could sign it.

Changing the governor isn't going to do much, you have to change the legislature! In order to do that you have to change the minds of the racists non-progressive Arizonans, who love the privacy of the ballot box, and can show their love of white hoods and burning crosses without actually doing it in the open.

There may be many progressives in Arizona, but it seems evident that they lack the numbers to get any real change accomplished.

Personally I wish you luck, but it seems that the only thing that non-progressives understand is when something affects their business and their bottom line. It's unfotunate that a boycott will also affect those against this law, but maybe it'll be a wake up call to those voters who currently support this law.

And by the way I lived in Tucson from 1997-2005, and still have friends in Phoenix as well.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
118. +1000
Everything you said.

The first people to get hurt the worst in a general boycott are the little guys.....the GOP & those in power don't give a shit about us- obviously...but the big money WILL hurt them. Boycotting big events and taking away the BIG money MIGHT get their attention.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. They aren't mutually exclusive goals.
No one disputes that Democrats in Arizona from Mo Udall forward are worthy folks. We like them. We always did.

The aim of a boycott is to voice non-violent principled opposition against Gov. Brewer for signing a polarizing bill, and against the legislators who drafted it and endorsed its passage. The bill is a permission slip for bigotry and the boycott would exact a moral price for that bigotry.

I'll be supporting the boycott.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Are you willing to help turn Arizona blue, or are you only willing to make things worse for us?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I typed it as clear as I could, jillan. They aren't mutually exclusive goals.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. And I've typed it as c l e a r l y as I can. Are you willing to help us get rid of these racists?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I would support a boycott which would be undertaken to oppose
racism as reflected in that bill. Yes.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
145. How about donating money to Democratic candidates in AZ?
That would be far more helpful than stamping your feet and refusing to buy cactus juice.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
121. I'm having some difficulty understanding how a boycott would help the right-wing. -nt
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. And you don't think it would be more productive to help us take back the state?
All the boycott is going to do ismake the conservatives dig in their heels and the only people it hurts are the Dems trying to work for a living. We already have no jobs. You won't hurt the GOP. They don't need the kind of jobs a boycott would destroy. The problem is you are extracting a moral price from the very folks on whose behalf you are protesting.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. If I am suggesting that the two are not mutually exclusive, saracat,
then it must be that I actually believe they aren't mutually exclusive.

You apparently believe they are.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:31 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just for the record - I rec'd this thread and someone came along and unrec'd it.
:crazy:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Rec'ing to make up for the unrec ~
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 02:49 AM by sabrina 1
However, while I agree that voting out the perpetrators, by electing Democrats is a good idea, I don't think that is going to be possible UNLESS residents of the state, particularly Independents and others who don't vote, realize that they need to do something, like letting Republicans know how angry they are that this law is likely to cause a boycott of the state, and bring hardship on everyone.

People will just ignore this law if the rest of the country, and indeed the world, don't do something about it. We can help elect Democrats by donating and as suggested, anyone who can go there to GOTV but it would wake a lot of people up who might not normally get involved, when they see some reaction and the potential disaster of keeping these throwbacks to the dark ages in office.

This doesn't just affect Az, if it passes and there is no outrage and/or consequences, other states will try the same thing. It needs to be stopped right now before we move on to the next crisis and this one is forgotten and the law is just accepted.

I think residents of Az could help by calling those responsible and letting them know how angry they are that the state is going to suffer if they don't stop this law from going into effect.

We've allowed too many egregious laws to pass always hoping that if we just elect Democrats something will be done to reverse them. That hasn't happened very often because once a law is put into effect, people just accept it after a while.

Edited to correct typos, and to say that I did rec the OP but it didn't register.

Iow, don't blame the people who do not want to visit a state with laws like this, blame those, and let them know you blame them, who are responsible. Let them hear from angry constituents that there is a real possibility that what they just did could destroy the economy of the state. I think the time for being nice to bigots should have passed long ago. I'm not much in the mood to just hope that they will be kicked out of we just work to elect Democrats. It's way beyond that. A lesson needs to be learned. They need to understand how outraged the rest of the free world is about this.

I will support boycotts and I hope people move fast to let those morons know that they are serious. I think if that happens, and these politician become scared that the reaction to their stupidity may cost them their jobs, they are far more likely to cave. Without consequences, they will simply feel that they have done nothing wrong and this poison is likely to spread to other states.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. I do understand - it's just frustrating to be inside of this mess.
I've already had family members in Chicago tell me that they won't be visiting anytime soon....they always love to rub it in that they are from a blue state...this is just the icing on the cake.

I just feel this law has to be defeated with a 1 - 2 punch. Not only letting the lawmakers see the consequences of their actions, but more importantly getting fired for this.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
60. Call their offices and tell them about your family and friends
who won't be visiting anymore. If a million people do that they'll have to pay attention. I have friends in Az as I just moved three months ago out of Az, but I will not be visiting them there, and they understand and support my decision. They will be calling the Governor's office also.

They, like you, are very upset, but NOT at the people who refuse to support a state whose laws will cause so much heartache and destroy so many lives, just as Jim Crow laws did in the past. They are willing to sacrifice too in order to end this stupidity.

I cannot imagine anyone of Hispanic origin feeling that they can remain in a state with laws like this. Why should they risk their freedom when there are places they can go without fear?

I just saw that Joe Arpaio loves the bill. No surprise there, but imagine how much worse things are going to be for anyone who 'looks like an immigrant' in his territory now!!

I also read that over 73 businesses shut their doors yesterday to protest the law and to support their Hispanic customers. Many of them are planning to leave the state as their customers are leaving anyhow, fearing what might happen to them if they stay. So, the economic consequences have already begun. The best thing residents can do is to keep calling the perpetrators of this act, and let them know that THEY will be held accountable for the consequences of his law ~ fighting for people's rights is never easy. Many people have lost their lives doing so. I understand you are upset about your relatives refusing to travel to Az, but I think you should not take that personally. Use it against the Governor ~

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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. We do need the help to elect Goddard
I personally encourage all that can to contribute because Goddard is key. Like Janet he can keep the lid on this garbage stuff and if you don't see how putting in a monkey like Brewer with this bunch of crazy nuts, then just go back and look.

I have been here 3 years and I tell you there are some fine people in this state and a progressive community that I am proud to be part of. Yes we are the minority but we are strong. Goddard wins and you can bet that horse's behinds like Pearce can be shoved back to the slimey rock they crawled out from.

Arpaio folks is in deep trouble, and while much can't be said, look for more news on this front. He is going down, but we need Goddard in office so we can have a chance to get a decent sheriff too. I believe in our community of progressives here and we are working hard to get Arizona where it is a decent and humane state.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
15.  They can't contribute to terry goddard because he is a Clean Elections candidate but they can
volunteer, and donate time. They can contribute money to the candidates I named. They can take money from anyone. We must take back the state!
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
7. Raising Arizona.
I like it. It needs it bad. :thumbsup:
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:35 AM
Response to Original message
12. When the AZ electorate acts responsibly, they have a shot at getting my dollars.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. The Mayor of Phoenix is trying to stop this bill. He is introducing a possible lawsuit on Tuesday.
There is alot more that's going on in this state to counter this bill.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
32. Sounds awesome. Let me know when the law is off the books.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
18.  So you would prefer NOT to help us take the state back?
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 02:43 AM by saracat
Almost half this state voted for Obama. Arizona had the first Hispanic governor in Raul Castro. Our previous Governor was a Democrat. We have sucessfully taken the majority of our congressional seats and because of a few jackasses in the state legislature and an "appointed accidental governor" you would rather punish an entire state? How does that even make any sense? Do you even realize that the last Governor this state elected was a Democrat? our Attorney generl is a Democrat. Was our electorate responsible when they elected them? The only constructive thing to do is ensure we take the state back.That is the only thing that will end this.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I'm beginning to think it's a lost cause around here.
Seeing Goddard's numbers suddenly rise in the polls would send a louder message to Brewer & co than a boycott that's going to hurt the state more. I saw a clip last nite about the Latino community threatening to close up their family owned business and take them out of state. We have enough problems without a boycott. But whatever- I'm being called selfish by another DUer for asking for help..I have better things to do with my time.

So if you see a short middle aged women with dark hair and glasses pushing a wheelchair with a young lady in it, with a black and white
dog = stop by and say hi tomorrow.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Maybe I will see you tommorrow. I will keep an eye out.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. I refuse to have any participation whatsoever with a Jim Crow state.
You all can do what you like.
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
94. Sure you would if I think you are who I believe you are
You have people right here in Arizona that are working to overturn this law, you have people that can erode the fiber of these thugs and you would refuse to use that weapon? I think you are too smart to not make use of it. Do you think MLK thought that? Didn't he use people in the South who could help end Jim Crow? Yep he did. Isn't that smart use of resources? Do you really think it wise to ignore that vital element that has always been one of the most productive resources in any war?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. King's specific tool of success was the Montgomery boycott.
He was not even well known then. And yes, he had his doubts about employing it against the bigotry of the bus system.

The boycott was not only successful, but it reverberated across the world.

A Supreme Court decision ruled in favor of King's argument. The boycott succeeded. The principle of the boycott was validated and the people's cause was advanced.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #95
108. And the boycott of AZ is what FINALLY made them approve MLK Holiday
Tourism is VERY important to AZ, as is the hosting of large conferences and conventions. So, call the AZ Chamber of Commerce and let them know vacations, business travel, conferences, conventions will go elsewhere until THEY force the racist dim-wits in the legislature to get rid of this law.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. Agree whole-heartedly.
Nice to see you on the boards this morning, havocmom.

:hi:
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #109
112. Why thank you.
It's rainy and windy out, so no gardening out there today. I will garden inside, and hopefully plant some seeds of ideas and actions ;)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. Time very well spent either way.
Carry on!
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #95
123. True dat, BUT King's boycott was targeted at the bus company
the SCLC did NOT boycott the entire state of Alabama, or even the entire city of Montgomery.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. Those boundaries pertain but the action succeeded, ending in a
Supreme Court ruling which desegegrated bus service to Montgomery residents and changed ivil rights history.

Sometimes big gestures begin as small gestures.

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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. You better bet I'm keeping my brown butt and money out of AZ as long as it isn't safe for me.
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
19. Ok folks please quit unrec this thread It is really childish
I respect your feelings and understand your anger. We here in the progressive community of Arizona are more angry than you. We certainly can understand your not wanting to spend here in Arizona, and we agree this law sucks, but remember overkill is also a danger. If you make it too hard on us, we who want to overturn this law will be left powerless. So please remember such things as no 2011 All Star game is a better choice, threats to leave the Cactus League if this law is not overturned are good examples of productive methods. I know about the truckers threats and personally that is scarey because we can't grow enough food here for our people, and we who are in the financial shape I am in will be the main ones to suffer. We liberals/Progressive believe in decency and fair punishment, and if too much is laid on our shoulders here, you could kill the hard work we in the progressive community here are trying to get done. Thanks
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank you Sarge. I am hoping we can do something constructive about all this.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Childish?... Nice condescension...
As a result I'll unrecc this in a minute. Just because I'm apparently childish.

That said... the notion that an embargo isn't called for, because it might affect "progressives"... seems ridiculous to me. If the "progressives" were "progressive" then I'd expect them to demand that the embargo be put in place. Not complain that putting the pressure to those who have done "wrong" might have some "spillover" effects...

I suspect the meaning of "progressive" is in the eye of the reader...

On the plus side, the fact that I'm boycotting Arizona is irrelevant, because the odds of Tom Waits concert attendance monies coming up again anytime soon is unlikely...
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Nice show of support for fellow Dems. Bankrupt us. that is really progressive of you.
I honestly don't see what is bad thing about taking the state back. The strongest message that we can send the GOP is to kick them out of office.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #27
48. Ahh, so now it's fellow Dems... not fellow progressives?
I suspect a Freudian slip... Dem != progressive now.

No, I'm not willing to support "fellow Dems." if it means tacit acquiescence to de facto racist policy. If a "fellow Dem" is caught up in the effects of a boycott... they should either understand why the boycott is happening, or come up with enough votes to make it unnecessary, or leave the area of the boycott. If the "fellow Dem" is a progressive, that is. If the "fellow Dem" just wants everyone to nod and wink, like the founding fathers did regarding slavery, then the "fellow Dem" doesn't qualify as a progressive in my lexicon.

Go ahead and take your state back. Until you do I'm not spending money in your general direction. Some cop might decide I look more like my immigrant father than my non-immigrant mother... or maybe just use it as an excuse to hassle me because I rub him/her the wrong way.

Go talk to yourself and your fellow Az-ers about progressivism... I don't feel any need to defend my choices on this topic.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #48
66. Who asked you to? Like Sarge, I have to get some rest. I have a protest to
go to and I have some work to finish on on a campaign. Do whatever you like.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #66
74. Who asked me to? Uhh, YOU, if I read the OP correctly.
"Boycotting Arizona is stupid. Do something productive and help us take back the state." - saracat's OP

Now you're not asking me to because... you are too tired to ... "explain" your point? "argue" your point? make your "point" make sense?

Yeah, go get some rest. I'll make a point of not spending a dollar on anything with any Az ties in any way, shape, or imagining.
I'll make a point of apologizing if your protest changes anything.
Will you do the same if the boycott changes anything?
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
34. thanks for proving my point
yes it is childish to intention do so. I have read topics here I thought were not what I agreed with and never had to do so. I have done it with topics that I saw were right wing freepers trying to disrupt, but to another progressive who I might have differed I didn't. So if you have that attitude I feel sorry for you because you are being childish.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #34
78. Thank you for your condolences for my childishness.
They warm the cockles of my heart when I unrecc threads because of accusations of childishness.

Ohh, and I disagree that this is the thread of "another progressive", judging by the content of the OP. As a result, your condolences for my childishness warm the cockles of my heart even more.

And you are welcome. I was happy to prove your point. I will refrain from pointing to issues of grammar in your response, as that would be over-the-top childish. I will, however, point out that the usage of the term "childish" to dismiss another's words in a post "smacks of" a matronly approach of dismissal that carries with it the odor of new-car-astrovans with a hint of soccer-ball and grass-stained-soccer-cleat... I would suggest, in the future, that you should scale back the matronly dismissals lacking in any substance -
I have read topics here I thought were not what I agreed with and never had to do so. I have done it with topics that I saw were right wing freepers trying to disrupt, but to another progressive who I might have differed I didn't.

... there's no "there" there... are you saying that I'm not allowed to unrecc anything that you have not, in advance, judged to be "right wing freepers trying to disrupt"? Are you deigning to "allow" me, but judging me childish for doing so?

Mommy?

I realize that the mommy judgementalism diction often carries weight with those who are still dominated/devoted to their "mommy figures", but I would hope you realize that trying to leverage that emotional handle in an audience is not the same thing as having a real point.

You do have a point, right? Other than "those who criticize points I like are children"? Right?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. Human rights activists in Honduras supported the embargo
placed on Honduras during the coup by countries with a spine.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #40
73. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
"Progressives" willing to fight for their progressivism... known colloquially as "communists" or "socialists" (depending on one's pedanticism/cluelessness).

Once the powers that be start suffering over it, then the progressives can start explaining to them why they are such assholes. It'll sound something like a Tyler Durden rant... " We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us." ... but with a more economic hardship tone.

Does Az have the "stones" for that, over "immigrants"?
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
36. No.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
62. Cool - self-proclaimed "true progressive" telling people which threads
they can and cannot unrec.

The more time goes by, the gladder I am not to be a member of your kewlkidz club.

If people who think like you are what passes for "progressive" down in Jim Crow state, then I guess it's futile to hope for anything good from that electorate.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
99. i haven't rec'd or unrec'd
but maybe calling the only action i reasonably believe i personally am able to take with regard to the worst law passed in i don't know how long "stupid" is one reason for the unrecs. i think there may have been a better choice of words. also, i firmly disagree with that assessment. see upthread regarding MLK and montgomery AL.
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
100. by the way,
i tuned you in this evening and i will again. suggest you put the link in your sig line.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
22. Boycotts can be effective tools in setting things to right.
Witness for example, the boycott of the public transportation system over the denigration and arrest of Rosa Parks, which ended in a Supreme Court ruling that declared unConstitional said segregation.

http://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Change-Civ%20Rts.html

There is a similar, and similarly disturbing, context to the Arizona bill signed by the cowardly Governor Brewer.

The Alabama boycott, by the way, was led by a young Martin Luther King.
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Some times they are however
having lived through that period in Mississippi and lived through Katrina, I can tell you who gets hurt the most, the little person. I am here in Phoenix and live on such a meager income I can't afford to leave the valley unless someone gives me a ride, and I am seeing my food stamps reduced each and every month to the point I have cut down to one small meal a day unless someone helps me by giving me more food. I got my internet because a wonderful listener of my show donated it to me so I could continue to broadcast progressive talk and someone like Jeff Farias a wonderful progressive voice back when we had nova m radio network has been without a full time job since he was fired from that job. Think about the raise in food cost, and think what people like Russell Pearce will do, they will go buy their food elsewhere and while their stupid little followers starve, they will just let them. I saw that happen in katrina, I saw the rats throw us little people to the sharks and tell us how those damn liberals were the cause.

I remember how in the old American Football League how New Orleans was to host the All Stars game and when the black players were not treated decent, the white guys on the team said no we won't play. The game was moved and New Orleans didn't get a team. It hurt New Orleans for years and the ones that suffered the most was the rich that had encouraged this garbage.

Phoenix has a love of it's sports programs, and so I say go for moving the 2011 All Star game, boycott the Cardinals, Diamondbacks, Suns and the others. I was going to go see my beloved Saints play the Cardinals in 2010 here, and had planned it so I might be able to do so. Now I plan to not go in protest of this bill and the ones hurt will be the richer ones, not those like myself. Make them pay for this and you have my support, but don't kill me to punish them.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. Sarge, it didn't stop Dr. King from organizing and leading the
boycott against segregated public transportation in 1955.

It was a shot heard 'round the world.

The "little person" you are talking about is also the human being who because he or she "looks" illegal can now be arrested by police and other law enforcement, detained, questioned, harrassed, and so forth, on the sheer basis of racial bigotry.

In my opinion that calls for bigger guns.

If there is a focused boycott I'll support it as a nonviolent means of registering discontent over the throwback racism of Gov. Brewer and the Arizona State Legislature.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
26. If it makes you feel any better, I suspect the vast majority
of those who say they will back the boycott had no intention of visiting Arizona before this law was passed. Happens here whenever an unpopular state does something crazy. On the other hand, when California passed Proposition 8 and some threatened to boycott the state, there was much dismay and denial and many posts like yours arguing that would only hurt dems. Good luck, and hope you are able to elect Goddard - he sounds like a reasonable politician.

Oh, and K & R - not that it helps.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Thank you very much for the sanity and Goddard is a very decent man
and he won AG by an even greater margin than janet. He was a popular mayor of Phoenix previous to that and almost won the Governoship before. We desperately need him as governor.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. You're welcome.
Since we are currently dealing with Chicken Woman, a lying cheating scummy Republican senator, and an even scummier governor, I hope that sanity prevails in your state and you elect a good person.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #30
110. Amazes me Goddard is still alive. The Phoenix 500 and winger minions play rough
I would hate the job of starting Goddard's car every morning. Cars sometimes blow up in Arizona and he must have a huge bunch of well-heeled enemies.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. It's not necessary to physically be in AZ to participate in a boycott.
There are Petsmart stores all over CA, for example, and then there are D-Back games and so on. Companies that don't want to be boycotted need to step up to the plate.

I understand what sara is saying but for now, I will support a boycott, will support the AZ Latino community and will wait and see how local AZ Dems behave.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. That's an effective way to pressure a state economy.
I was referring to the many here who are insisting they won't go to Arizona and spend their money, when they never intended to go there before the proposed boycott. It's a lot easier to not do something you weren't going to do anyway than to actually change your behavior (generic 'you', not personally you).
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. Sure. I think this really is going to take off.
There are a lot of people that are extremely upset about this law.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. Agree. The law is cowardly and stinks of racism.
The scent has drifted well beyond the borders of Arizona into the general population.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. That's the odor of Republicans opening wallets.
I would like to push back on that.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. LOL. Indeed.
:thumbsup:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #45
75. Well, I would have been visiting Az since I just left there three
months ago after living there for two years. I have friends there and one of my family members travels there as he is in the business of buying and selling horses. He also owns a house in Prescott Valley. I would have gone with him when he goes to one of the horse shows but will not do so now, not until this law is rescinded. However, as EFerrari points out, there are other ways of protesting. We also have pets and have been frequent customers of those pet stores, in Prescott and here in Ca. I will definitely be writing to them to explain why we will no longer be customers. We just recently signed up for puppy training classes and pet grooming eg. But there are other places.

I also know that if I were still living there, I would support strong retaliatory action by the rest of the country, as fast as possible. True, it might have affected me, and may affect my friends who are still there, but I think this is one of those times where the greater good has to be considered rather than the immediate impact of swift action to end this before it starts spreading to other states.

Boycotts, while they probably did adversely affect some innocent people at the time, helped end Apartheid in S.Africa. I think even those affected would say that it was worth it.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
111. Yep. One can boycott AZ and AZ companies AND send $$ to DEM candidates
Double barrel approach works for me.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
28. real boycotts are tricky to get going
and seem to fall flat on their face more often than not.

I don't think that will be the case here--it will be easy pressure, and an obvious way for people (esp. the less political) to help.

An economic embargo of Az.

(Sorry that you live there).
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. I have been tore on this issue
I certainly agree something from other states would be nice, but I live here and I see who will be hurt the most if it isn't done properly. MLK was mentioned and he did it right, we can't punish the ones who will suffer the most and only pinch the ones who can afford it. I lived in Mississippi for over half a century and I know when boycott came up, they just tighted the noose around the poor. They cut social programs and the rich started working around it. The trick is to do it effectively and sports is a good tool. Look at the MLK day here in Arizona, did the boycotts do it? It was the Super Bowl not coming here, the national college championship game not coming here. This is what those rich rats care about. Conventions that don't come will help, but the overall thing is a mistake because it will be the poor who suffer.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
46.  Delete Dupe
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 03:34 AM by saracat
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
47.  Delete Dupe
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 03:35 AM by saracat
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Amen. What these folks don't realize is how little this would effect those responsible.
The only way we can punish them is to kick them out of office.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #49
69. I will take exception to being "these folks" Saracat
I suppose my point is I've watched people suggest boycotts to one thing or another for a long time, and strategically (as sort of an aging activist) I cannot think of better reason to have one that might succeed.
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havocmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #49
114. If those boycotting are vocal to the AZ Chamber of Commerce, Hotel owners associations....
oh, those entities will make short work of THOSE RESPONSIBLE. Money is king in AZ, like most other places.

Boycotts really work IF and WHEN the local advocates for commerce get the message loud and clear.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #49
120. Amen saracat.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
138. This action that you called "stupid" is being called
by the people most impacted.

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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
72. Wouldn't that be a form of boycott? n/t
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
35. So you want us to not boycott, ie spend money in your state, AND
support your candidates. That sounds like a double whammy to me.

I think boycott, and spend those boycotted dollars on your candidates.

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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Look at what I said please
I said do it constructively. You must have missed what I said about certain target areas so please go back and read and get it right.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #43
52. I get it, I just disagree. I am 100% in favor of boycotting AZ, and
for those who want to, contributing to dems in the state.

The sooner all Arizonians feel the pain, the sooner it will be revoked, hopefully saving the rest of the country the cost of litigation on a federal level.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #52
65. Federal invention absolutely necessary. Boycott will also get their attention. Money matters.
Probably save the state in the long run so even more dollars are not wasted in litigation here.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. Good point, and practical and long-range, too. Hi lonestarnot.
Beyond the obvious racism in this bill from Arizona is the stench of cowardice in Governor Brewer's signing it.

She knows it is wildly polarizing and she knows a flurry of legal tangles lies ahead.

She ought to be tremendously ashamed of herself, but she's a Republican, so she probably isn't.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #65
77. Who is big besides Petsmart and the D-Backs?
Giving people a nice big Republican target is a good idea.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #77
80. Walfart.
:evilgrin: :think:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:29 AM
Response to Reply #80
82. LOL. Are they out of AZ?
I don't know if I can not shop there any harder!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. LOL.
I think others have said sports is the pocket change. Grand Canyon attracts people from all over the world. Nasty car, baseball, football, I couldn't boycott them any harder. :puke:
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #52
67. I had to reply to this
I realize you have good intentions but let me remind you, that the right wing denied us Katrina Survivors a lot. They bad mouthed us, called us lazy, stole our land, forced us from our homes under a similar thought. To act reactionary is a dangerous thing, and to apply a broadbrush is not a thing that solves problems. It is that very attitude of painting all the same that motivates Arpaio, and the same that got this bunch of right wing birthers to pass this law. Hope that will help you some.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Would you have told Martin Luther King to back off on the 1955 boycott
in Montgomery in the wake of the arrest of Rosa Parks?

Boycotts are nonviolent but forceful statements of principle over policy.

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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #70
93. Again you have to remember how that was done
I was in Mississippi back in those days and I remember them well. King targeted it, he didn't just say don't buy and let the blacks there suffer without help, he worked with those in the area and did all he could to support them. That is KEY but those here seem to forget, we have people here that are working against this law, we have people here who can help strength your actions, but forgetting us and helping us beat this law is foolhearted and self defeating. King didn't do that and neither should it be forgotten now.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #93
98. No one suggests suffering is a goal. There was very close to no one
in the State of Alabama willing to take Rosa Parks' side in that dispute, despite her having the guts and integrity to take her own side and stand up for herself.

King's strategy incurred risk. But it succeeded and changed national perspective on race relations and civil rights. It also changed national law.

Stop referring to people in place who are working against the law, inasmuch as they obviously could not stop it from passing the State legislature, nor prevent the Governor from signing it.

I'm more for the boycott than ever, Sarge.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #67
71. No one boycotted Katrina, the Bush admin simply failed. You are entirely
unsuccessfully attempting to link the two.

If you don't want to be painted with Arpaio and this bill, then get something done about it. It isn't like the whole Arpaio attitude in AZ hasn't been around now for, what, decades? If you can't get your State Legislature and elected Sheriffs so they aren't rabid nutballs, then ya'll deserve the boycott. You've had plenty of time, and apparently you aren't able to motivate your Repubs and Indies, we'll help by boycotting everything AZ.
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #71
91. Consider this
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 05:54 AM by SargeUNN
You certainly are entitled to feel how you do, but you really seem to not be aware that you can kill more off than you ever realized. Let me give you an example of what you can end with your idea. First, consider that some very dedicated people here fought to establish a progressive radio station and broadcast Air America on it. That station got bought out by a right religious group because the station was making the ratings, and a difference in the state. These people didn't fold their tent but set out to get another station, and with help from Air America Listeners plus the local community a station was bought. Later that station became the flagship station of Nova M Radio and with the work of that station for a couple of years water was provided for the homeless as well as food and supplies to keep these people from starving. Harry Mitchell was elected thanks in large part to the station and the Republicans didn't get that seat. We worked our rear ends off to get Dan Saban elected as Sheriff but fail thanks in part to the fact that the station and network went under. We made a big difference also on the Mississippi Gulf Coast by helping putting 100 homes back in the hands of people who lost it during Katrina. The community here provided all sorts of goods for these people and I was there when the trucks carrying these goods rolled into Jackson County Ms. It was the first smile I had seen in months on those people's face and some had their first real sense of hope in a long time. The local Mississippi community I lived in had refused to help Jackson County saying we got our own problems, and some churches there said they had done enough. Thanks to the good progressives of Phoenix Arizona, these people were given help. A year later after the first drive another effort was made here by this station and again $4000.oo was sent to help the people in Jackson County Ms. None said it is a red state that votes for the likes of Barbour, Lott, and the others that have been so bad, because these people were hurting, and needed help.

One man in Mississippi took on Barbour after the Governor had evicted people from 2 section 8 housing units that corporations wanted. He was able to get evidence that Barbour had done this and filed a complaint against it with HUD. HUD ordered Barbour to stop the evictions or be indicted. This man was now the target death threats, forced to walk miles to get his food even though he had a disability from his military service to his legs. The man was fast headed to death, but some people cared and contacted Mike Malloy and he started asking his listeners to help get this guy out of this situation. Jeff Farias of KPHX announced it on his show, offered his home in Phoenix to this man until he could find a place in Phoenix to live. For 5 weeks Jeff and his family put the man up and sat up and talked to him on nights he couldn't sleep because of the nightmares of his Mississippi experienced. Yes, that man is me.

Jeff now has a network of his own, listener supported that airs progressive talk from 10 am to 9 pm on Saturdays, as well as his 3 hour show Monday through Friday talking to many progressive leaders. People like Alan Grayson, Dennis Kucinich, Howard Dean and others and often falling short of the donations to cover the cost he and his wife do without some stuff to keep the progressive message going out. Of course this might seem small but I assure you to those of us who have been saved by these situations, we don't.

Yeah cut out all of the money going into Arizona, cut out the network we are building, that will show these right wingers. I agree don't let the right wing profit and hurt their interest, fair enough, but to cut out those of us who fight for the ones who are affected by this lunatic law, to cut off this small voice to show the suffering and pain of it, how is that going to be affective? If you can tell me that, then you are certainly the smartest person I ever heard from. How does that make you different from those right wing churches that refused to help Jackson County Ms.? I don't see it, and I bet you don't either.
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Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #91
116. Entitled to how I spend my money as well.
I simply don't agree with your concerns at this time. The sooner and most painfully that all AZs feel the boycott, the sooner things will be remedied and the sooner it will be over.

You folks there have had over ten years to address AZs immigration nutjobs, you haven't. We can and should help by applying meaningful pressure through our spending dollars.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #67
76. Supporting the Latino community's call for a boycott is not reactionary
just as calling their action "stupid" is unwarranted. I know we'll get this together but so far, it looks like some of us are a little unclear on the concept. It's a little like that scene in "Stripes" where Bill Murray is trying to get his guys to march to music, "Black guys, help the white guys".

That's all right. Have a good demonstration.


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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #76
92. How do you support the Latino Community when
Your idea shuts down a voice they have? I have had programs that talked about the Dream Act and how it was a good thing to help students that were not documented to gain citizenship, I have had Latinos on telling about how Arpaio must be stopped with his sweeps, I have given air time and went to protest against Arpaio's attack on them, and you think not sending money to help keep us on the air is helping them because we are in Arizona? Sorry, you lost me on that one. Of course I guess it would be fair since I doubt you knew of us and therefore you never contributed, and guess you want so you can help the Latino community. I will tell them of your support, I am sure they will understand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #92
107. You take too much for granted. That's a mistake.
First, the Latino Community is calling for a boycott. Were you actually engaged in this issue, you'd know that.

Second, I don't need an interlocutor to speak for me to my own people but mil gracias for your generous offer.

Third, dragging support for your radio show into to this seems inappropriately self-interested. This isn't about you. This is a time to lend a hand, not put yours out.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
39. Arizona Congress member Raul Grijalva called for a boycott
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. Raul did that before she signed the bill hoping the threat would
get Brewere to veto it. It didn't work. Actually, it made it less likely for her to do so because she is fighting for her GOP primary nod and couldn't afford to look wreak to her base. Personally, I think she would has signed it no matter what but she was also boxed in. I have no sympathy for her though. This is what happens when you kiss the elephant, and she is one of them. However, I hope Jan does win the Primary as she would be the easy one to beat.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. He hasn't changed his position as of Saturday when he spoke
at a rally.



CBS) In Tucson Saturday, protests continued over Arizona's tough new law cracking down on illegal immigration law.

Hundreds turned out to rally against the law in front of Congressman Raul Grijalva's (D-Ariz.) office; he's called on industries from manufacturing to tourism to boycott his own state.

"There has to be an embarrassment sanction, that's part of it," said Grijalva. "And there as to be an economic sanction. That's part of it."

The economic impact of the bill, signed by Republican governor Jan Brewer Friday, has many here in Arizona nervous, reports CBS News correspondent John Blackstone.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/04/24/eveningnews/m...
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. I can't rec your post, EFerrari, because the software doesn't allow it,
but if I could, I would.

Quite correct on Grijalva, and absolutely to the point.

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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. Well, then I disagree with him. I would be surprised if any of our other delegation would support
him in this.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
64. I'd like to see how Arizona Democrats handle themselves.
Who else besides this gentleman has spoken up, do you know?
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
50. Yes he did and if you read my post correctly
You will see I say it can be done, but to do it reasonably and effectively. I even explained how my former state of Mississippi handled boycott threats and how they passed it to the poor. It is something that should be done effective enough to hit the right target not the wrong one.

If one is going hunting they shouldn't shoot at everything that moves, they should shoot at the very target they intend to get. A full boycott of any state is going to hurt the ones that are not part of the problem, and the ones that are will hold out longer. It must be done constructively and sensible so as to maximize the effect on the right target.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #50
88. What makes you think that those affected "will hold out longer"?
If they're losing business because of a boycott, they will pressure the legislature to change the law so as to end the boycott... they're business people, before being idealogues... and they are the interests that the legislature will listen to. If they decide to hold out longer... it just means that they support a de facto racist policy. Trying to convince the rest of the nation to look the other way would endorse that racist policy.

The owners of the businesses most hard hit, the convention hotel owner corporations, will side with an end to the boycott and pressuring the legislators before they will start laying off workers... it just makes more business sense. Arguing against the boycott is just arguing to relieve the pressure on them.

Workers won't be affected by a boycott unless the owners decide to start laying off and absorbing the loss of business rather than pressuring lawmakers to change the law. Only the idealogue corporations will do this, and they deserve to suffer and workers should leave their employ anyway.

Or the workers can try to afford to stay in the hotels of their bosses in order to keep them happy, paying 3 days pay per day for lodging... the bosses will love you and take all your money happily.

It's your state... or "theirs'... make of it what you will.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
57. I don't do AZ, so there's little chance that I could boycott. But I fully support...
those who are willing to do so. Sacrifice is what's called for on the part of progressives in AZ. You're pretty quick to level attacks on others, but this time it's your bull that's being gored. I say suck it up & deal. And I hope there's a massive boycott, and I hope Brewer has to go crawling to the administration to keep the lights on. AZ sucks.
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
59. Well I got to get some sleep Going to the protest
so I need to rest. I hope I have given you all something to think about and hope you will remember those of us here who are working hard to right this wrong. We need you to be with us in the Progressive community here and together we can make a change. Remember change only begins with you.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
79. Here's some lawyers who don't like the bill much at all:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. In 2006, the Latino pop of AZ was about 30%.
I think these people just broke into the wrong rec room. lol
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. It is an astonishing thing to watch a governor of a U.S. State sign
legislation that will turn the citizens of that state against each other.

I just think it is astonishing.

I hope Gov. Brewer pays a huge political penalty for her action.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. Joegreenbolgna had already done that. Horseface stoked the embers.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. I think the boycott will take hold and be sustained,
and I think it may put the hard chill on other states whose rightwing nutbag legislators were thinking of doing the same sort of thing...

Hard to tell this early, but I like the odds of overturning this law, and the sooner the better.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
87. For a long time, the point of boycotts is to insist on higher principles
against entities, political or commercial, who are seen to violate those principles.

It is significant that the protestors' viewpoint has resonance in the universal community.

http://www.pbs.org/now/society/boycott.html

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. If they try to take away the greater good we resist.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yes. Rosa Parks was not asking for anything more than her own
dignity as a human being on that bus.

A law was in place which denied her that dignity.

It deserved the ferocity of principle it got with the boycott.

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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
96. i don't think it's stupid to boycott the state.
look at it this way. i wasn't going to be in AZ any time soon, but because i joined a boycott, now your Chamber of Commerce and tourism industries know that i won't be, because of the stupid law they just passed over there. my boycott is symbolic and that's how i can help your state. sorry no money. i live and work in NC; can't go volunteering in AZ. a boycott by others in other states is the best way for you to get your state back into reasonable hands, that and GOTV. you've got the numbers now get them involved.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:14 AM
Response to Original message
97. A fine piece from THE NATION's John Nichols on the Arizona mess:
Excerpt:

---

As the Competitive Enterprise Institute's top immigration policy analyst, Alex Nowraste, notes: "The (Arizona) law should be called the Job Destruction and Crime Promotion Act of 2010'. Placing more restrictions on Arizona employers, who are already required to use the federal government's E-Verify tracking system, will only make an economic recovery less likely in the Grand Canyon State. Furthermore, it will overburden Arizona's already fiscally-strapped police departments with the impossible task of enforcing this law."

In other words, the law is anti-business and anti-law enforcement.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/554690/an_arizon...

---


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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
101. Sorry - AZ is out of my travel plans until they rescind this measure.
Beautiful state, but they'll get none of my bucks.

Every state official understands a loss in tourist $$$.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 06:40 AM
Response to Original message
102. It is neither 'stupid' nor un-productive
just because it's not YOUR solution, doesn't mean it's stupid. Waiting for AZ to swing progressive may be long, long wait.
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
104. Would You Have Traveled To Germany In 1933??
My relatives in Eastern Europe who were Jewish had to always prove their identity, always asked "where are your papers?" Those who lived under the Soviety system knew it as well. So we're supposed to accept this type of draconian government in this country? Next it'll be deciding which "citizens" are REAL Americans vs. those who aren't...even if they have been in this country for generations. It's codifying "DWH"...Driving While Hispanic. Next will "REAL" Hispanics have to wear a badge or some other designation on their clothing to ascertain their identity? Do we tatoo? Brand them? Ya know they "all look alike". Sorry, but I can't believe that in this country I'd see such as discriminatory "law" proposed yet passed. There's no say I can support this by spending my money on trips to Arizona.

I'll gladly support Democratic candidates...such as I have with Gabrielle Giffords in the past two elections, and will gladly help support other Arizona Democrats who will move to repeal this fascist bill. But until the law is repealed, my dollars won't go to support a state government that is so regressive.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
105. I posted yesterday about my concerns re: boycotts and the poor
Edited on Sun Apr-25-10 08:58 AM by hlthe2b
and struggling of Arizona. I see both sides, but would like to politely play devil's advocate for a moment. Reversing the majorities in the legislature will be required--not just replacement of Governor. The fastest route to that is if the populace becomes angry over the reverberations from this law. An intense boycott would be very likely to accomplish that. Otherwise, it may take several cycles of elections before the mindset is out of power.

Then there is the bigger picture. I don't see AZ in a vaccuum. There are emboldened racist RETHUGS just drooling to pass similar laws in many states throughout the US. To stop this trend, requires quick and decisive consequences--whether through a Federal court injunction, a series of filed lawsuits, or immediate boycott impact from cancelled events, conventions, and tourism reservations. Someone mentioned the likely impact on local municipal and state liability insurance premiums. The faster these legal issues begin to be explored and consequnces in terms of proposed lawsuits announced, the more the public will realize how intense will be the financial ramifications. All of this in total, are going to build the unavoidable pressure for change and change on an immediate level.

I don't want to hurt the very people of Arizona that this law is most meant to impact the most--nor to cause the collateral damage that Saracat and others discuss. But, I am beginning to think that the best way to limit that pain--which is coming regardless, I am convinced--would be through quick and decisive multifaceted actions and their combined consequences. Dragging this out to allow for a long term political climate change and political solution strikes me as one with far more consequences--not only for Arizona, but for much of the rest of the US. I'm not sure that is a risk we can afford to take.

I am mulling these issues over and have not come to a final conclusion. I normally attend one or more conferences each year and Phoenix is often chosen as the locale. I will have some input for one meeting location and I know that this will come up. I should think most convention organizers would be leary of Arizona, whether they feel strongly about the issue or not--simply because they may get less participation from those who DO care.

Saracat and others, I do share your concerns and doubt that most would want to cause further pain to the 50% or more of the population that surely does not support this. It does have to be reversed and quickly.. I fear that with or without the boycott, AZ is going to face tremendous financial reverberation from this folly. Thus the real issue may be how best to overturn this law and quickly move past this and reverse the damage that it brings. In that light, a boycott may be appropriate.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #105
122. Pressure the BIG GUYS!
Can MLB really run the risk that their players be snatched and chained by Sheriff Joe's goons or proxies? Will they issue flash cards so their peeniepals will know who NOT to fuck with?

All that needs to happen is a few major economic actors to show up and this shit will be INSTANTLY STOPPED in its tracks.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #122
127. More Big Guys here (Walmart, Petsmart, Cox, more)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #105
128. The Latino community is calling for a boycott
and as they are the people most directly impacted, I'm going with that until they tell me differently.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
106. Your state's racist laws are for you to fix.
I go to Tempe once a year in the summer for a gaming convention; I will not be attending this year. I will miss staying at The Mission Palms and lunching at The Blue Nile, Green, and Pita Jungle, but that's the way it goes.
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KonaKane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #106
156. I thought one thing that made Democrats better was....
the notion that we are all in this together. This is NOT just Arizona's problem. This is a terrible issue that threatens to spread. By recognizing it so, and doing what we can to help AZers in their quest to chuck this stupid law, we help them and all of us down the road.

Let's get beyond provincialism.
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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
115. Petition each County Commissioner, Police Commissioner, Mayor...
... to ask them to simply instruct all law enforcement officers in their juristiction to apply a certain interpretation of the law that would effectively nullify it - or face disciplinary hearings for insubordination.

This of course would be a stop-gap measure, and yes you are going to get some municipalities who are going to enforce the law to the letter... my belief is that the Phoenix PD isn't going to be really strict on enforcing this new law.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
117. Sorry. We won't be going there. DH has a "funny accent" and I don't think we'll be welcome.
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PopSixSquish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
124. What's With the Either/Or Thinking? Why Would You Give Up a Powerful Protest Tool?
I'm sure that Terry Goddard would be a good governor, but would that be enough? He can't simply "wave a magic wand" (to borrow a phrase) and suddenly make this bill be overturned. You'd need to run the table by getting him, a new AG, and a new legislature elected, something that takes time.

In the meantime, why not boycott or strike? Hold daily protests outside the legislature? Get the Feds to sue AZ over civil rights violations? Support the Mayor of Phoenix LOUDLY who is going to sue to get this overturned? Get MLB to move the 2011 All-Star Game? Protest the AZ sports teams when they come to play in other cities? Hell, why not an AZ versiodn of the "Freedom Riders"?

If the police departments in AZ oppose this law, then they need to say so LOUDLY. Get them to refuse to enforce it. Get the churches to lead the santuary movement.

And yes, encourage people to donate to AZ Democratic politicians running for local, state and federal office.

Every action has and equal an opposite reaction, the point here is to make the reaction an order of magnitude larger and use every tool you can...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #124
137. I haven't seen anything from him about how this law violates the rights
of US citizens.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
126. Maybe you should start a nonprofit dedicated to getting rid of the "Jaime Cuervo" law
call it "Nuestra Arizona" or something. That way, lots of us could, and would, contribute directly to the cause of justice.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. There are a number of orgs already on this
like Presente.org -- and I bet we'll be hearing about more as the days roll by.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
130. Amen.
K & R
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
133. I think both approaches can be useful
If income from tourism suffers, that will make a statement. If people take some of the money that they might have spent as tourists in Arizona and send it to democratic candidates, so much the better.

If people can take the time to come to Arizona to register voters, great. Personally, I've got battles to fight in my own neck of the woods, so I don't think I'll be coming to Arizona to volunteer for Goddard, but I certainly hope he wins.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
134. Arizona won't get a penny from me until this is fixed. I've been there
many times in the past. I won't go again. And there are a few items I order from Arizona that I will no longer buy. Enough is enough. For all I know the company that I've been ordering from is made up of wackos like the ones who passed this bill.

I'll let them know why I can't do business with them anymore, too. Just so they know.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
135. Brewer rose to the governorship because Obama appointed Napolitano
We should be helping you guys defeat Brewer and her ilk that have done so much damage, including LGBTs, in the short time she has been governor.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. Thank you. I agree.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
140. I wouldn't step foot in the state if you paid me at this point.
And there's no way in hell you'd convince me that not boycotting your state and in theory subjecting myself to the whims of your racist police is a better plan of action than hitting imbeciles where they hurt, in their wallet.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #140
144. I'm sure they won't miss you
:evilgrin:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. I bloody well won't miss them. And as I don't make it a habit to travel
within the country with a passport nor do I tend to carry a birth certificate I'll be keeping my black child of immigrants ass right out of Arizona thank you very much. I see no reason whatever why I should subject myself to the whims of such a patently racist law if I can possibly avoid it.

I'm sure the won't miss me one whit as they don't seem to like black and brown people much.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. You know, you could always do something positive:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. Has Goddard said anything about the human rights aspect of
Juan Crow?
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #150
154. I haven't heard anything, but I've been at work.
Others might have a better idea.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
142. If I lived in AZ I wouldn't be worried about the boycott.
I'd be a lot more worried about victims of this institutionalized harassment suing the state government back into the stone ages. The taxpayers of AZ are going to have to foot the bill for that, and it aint gonna be cheap.
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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-25-10 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
143. We had a run in once before about AZ
Good to see you are proud of it, I was born there and lived my first 23 years there as AZ was booming and the core politics never got any better. There were the good Dem politicians but always a huge battle against the fucking idiot Right Wingers, mainly in my hometown of PHX.

So as for the boycott... Babbitt left office and knew the only way not to embarrass his state was to sign MLK into law via Executive Order I believe. Good old Ev came in and overturned it. So everyone with half a brain explained to the fine residents of AZ that their redneck racists views would cost them money. And they had a vote, then on the Sunday before the election Greg Gumbel went on the NFL pregame show and stated the same fact, if AZ does not approve MLK day then the State would lose a lot of money. So that was all the racists needed, "they weren't going to have some NY black guy tell them what to do!" So they voted it down, lost millions due to a Super Bowl being pulled and then decided to hide the racist instincts and vote for MLK day. So fifteen years later you are stuck in a similar situation and the only way the stupid racist fucks will get it is to hit them where it hurts. Don't take this personal, because you are being penalized based upon your neighbors. But these same racist weenies who weren't going to let some outsider from NYC influence their MLK vote (and if that was their reason for voting against it, then weren't they influenced by some outsider from NYC? - not really because they weren't influenced by Gumbel, that was just had a lame ass reason to be racist pricks)are the same ones raising the Illegals are raping our women, shooting our kids..... and the only way they can be jolted into reality is a good hard swift kick in the nuts. I'm sorry you are impacted by it, but a boycott is the only thing that will get through to your racist neighbors, those same neighbors who vote in Sheriff Joe again and again and again.

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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
148. Until the law is thrown out, we're boycotting Arizona. Think you have it tough now?
Come back in 6 months and tell us how McCain got re-elected!!!
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #148
149. Why don't you just support the Democrats there instead?
If you hate the law, then go after the lawmakers. Not the people.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #149
152. Yah - like those lawmakers just magically appeared from out of nowhere.
Not.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. Money always helps.
We need to help our party there.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. As some bright person noted, it has been like 20 years since the MLK bigot debacle there...
It's patently obvious the electorate there hasn't improved one iota. Tell me again why I should be inclined to throw good money after bad, again?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
151. Why not both?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
157. I'm in the boycott AND support the Democratic candidates column. I understand that
a boycott will hurt average Arizonans who are NOT in favor of this heinous (and illegal) new law; however, I think a boycott and making the calls to influential Arizona elected representatives explaining why we are boycotting will do more and do it faster than simply trying to support Dems in the upcoming elections.

In fact, this boycott and the economic consequences of it could do more to wake up middle-of-the-road Arizonans to the importance of getting these fascists out of their government.

I'm recommending this thread because I think people need to read the Pros and the Cons of this boycott idea.


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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-26-10 11:42 PM
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158. Were you against the SC/ Confederate Flag boycott?
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