What happened in Arizona that got this law passed?

[IndianaJoe]

Are there any locals that can explain it? I heard about a rancher getting killed; drug wars on the border; a John Bircher pushing it in the legislature; and Neo-Nazis supposedly writing it. But I was wondering if someone knowledgeable about this can give me some insight on it.

[stray cat]

1. Arizona citizens getting kidnapped and killed at rates higher than other states

they seem to not like it

[Bluebear]

2. Citation?

[Yavapai]

13. Here are a couple for you.

Kidnapping Capital of the U.S.A. ABC story ---=> here http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6848672&page=1

New York Times Feb. 23 , 2009 ----=> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/24/us/24border.html

Google "Arizona+illegal immigrants" and you get 935,000 hits....

[The Magistrate]

18. And This Law, Sir, Addresses This How?

[Yavapai]

31. I just Googled it for you.

All I know is a lot of my local friends here in Northern Arizona, both Democrats and Republicans seem to approve of it.

I haven't researched it other than that and have yet to form an opinion of the law...

[The Magistrate]

38. Nonesense, Sir: You Were Asked How This Law Addressed The Items Mentioned In Your Post

Your explaination is awaited.....

[Bluebear]

55. :crickets:

[bridgit]

72. I think there are elements of what you've posted that are understood as correct...

And that folks living in other locales out from under the corrosive effects of living inside a free-fire open range shooting gallery and kidnapping concern, as a business model, will continue to view any such laws and their however-feeble attempts to resolve as forms of an abstract

[IndianaJoe]

3. Really? Hadn't heard about that.

I'd like a citation too.

[Bluebear]

4. He doesn't answer posts, he just drops bombs on threads & scoots,

[tekisui]

41. All this time on DU and they still haven't found MyDU.

They still can't figure out how this 'discussion' works.

[QC]

68. Hasn't figured out how that there profile thingamajiggy works, either. n/t

[BunkerHill24]

5. You must of been scared out of your wits you just had to support such legislation, ah?

[Confusious]

9. citation

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/02/13/k...

[Bluebear]

11. 'The majority of the victims are either illegal aliens or connected to the drug trade.'

So the people of Arizona terrified of being kidnapped are "illegal aliens" so they pushed for this law?

OK!

[Confusious]

14. I just found the citation that other people called BS

Crime doesn't actually have to happen to YOU to make it real, or a problem.

Think about it. OK!

[Bluebear]

21. I have thought about it. How does this law change that?

"Over the last decade, the violent crime rate has dropped by 19 percent, while property crime is down by 20 percent. Crime has also declined in the rest of the country, but not as fast as in Arizona."

http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/22/how-immigration-c...

[Confusious]

26. I wasn't stating how this law changes that

I was giving a cite on someone saying that it was the kidnapping capital of the US, and the reason it might cause people to pass this law.

[billh58]

48. Sure, let's pass

a law that being Hispanic in an area of a large concentration of multi-generational Hispanic Americans, makes a person automatically a kidnapping "suspect" and a potential drug criminal. Bringing back Jim Crow laws will fix everything -- right?

Did it ever occur to the religious-right rednecks in your Red State that just maybe drugs and drug gangs are your problem? Could it have something to do with the ease at which these drug gangs can obtain illegal guns and sell drugs in Arizona?

Sheriff Joe, your State Legislature, your Governor, and your Congressional representation make Arizona a world-wide laughing stock, and a giant wart on the ass of the USA.

[madmax]

17. Yeah, that's what I'm get from this.

They don't give a rats ass about crimes against Mexicans by Mexicans.

[Warren Stupidity]

63. A little perspective.

That is 370 kidnappings total in a city of (2008) 1,585,838. That is a rate of 23.3/100,00. In Phoenix, all violent crimes are at 659.9 per 100,000. Phoenix is less dangerous than Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, Philiadelphia, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Dallas, Detroit, Indianapolis, Charlotte...
here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_cr...

Furthermore, 49% of all kidnappings are of children and are custody disputes: http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=158, there is no evidence that Phoenix is any different.

[Confusious]

73. I don't live in phoenix, so I have no idea

But on the other hand, it's all a matter of perspective, and if the media is pumping it, that's what gets the oil.

[WolverineDG]

10. source? nt

[tekisui]

42. Huh? You have proof that those stats are related to unauthorized immigrants?

[Rhiannon12866]

6. K&R! This might help answer your question:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[ThatsMyBarack]

7. Joe Arapaio just felt like it?

Sorry, I need to catch up on current events.

[Kali]

34. he was already doing this shit

he didn't need no new stinking law - but all his supporters up there in Maricopa county (and he is VERY popular with the whitey repukes that infest the desert) are who pushed this shit through. I wonder who is going to do their lawnmowing now?

[havocmom]

39. And under federal investigation for doing this shit. Seems the Legis wants to protect him

It's the Sheriff Joe Protection and Enabling Act

Considering that he not only has his officers do a lot of profiling, he has also gone after business people and community leaders who have been critical of him and his racist officers. Have read that businesses complain of slow response time and increased crime. When they get vocal against Sheriff Joe, they start getting harassed too. That is one of the reasons the Feds are there investigating, isn't it Kali? Some of the less powerless got tired of his crap.

My guess is lots of the fools in the state legislature have been bullied by Sheriff Joe and what he knows about them, so they kiss his ass. And, with winger fringe making noise so out of proportion to their actual numbers, the lawmakers are afraid of them too.

[marybourg]

8. A form of government that encourages citizen initiatives, encouraging

citizens to believe legislators are a useless relic of the past and therefore debasing respect for and then, the quality of, legislators. The people who still turn out to vote tend to be older and with an axe (ie. lowest possible taxes) to grind. The average Arizonian is not extremely right of center (witness our nearly unique public election financing system and several progressive outcomes on issues of marijuana, abortion and the MKL Holiday), but younger more progressive folks are cynical and excuse-prone when it comes to voting for legislators and largely concede the field to radical right. Just my take on it, based, I'm sure, on my life experiences; your's will be different.

[Confusious]

12. One thing that changed my mind

A friend's girlfriend got hit by an illegal immigrant, totaled her car.

Gave a false name, ran off. My friend had to pony up the entire price for a new car.

The police should have stopped and detained him.

[-..__...]

16. There wouldn't be this kind of problem...

if they were allowed to posses a state drivers license, along with insurance.

[The Magistrate]

19. Odds Are Pretty Good, Sir, She Still Would Have Had To Pay for a New Car

[Confusious]

20. Yes, but he would have been sent back home

Not out running into other people.

He would have gotten of easy with that. If it had been me as a citizen of the United States, I would have been in jail for driving without insurance.

[The Magistrate]

23. You Think He Gets Into Wrecks For Sport, Sir? That It Is His Hobby?

You have no idea if he has been in another accident, or even was in any accident previous to the one you know of.

And again, you claim the trigger was your friend having to pay for her own new car, and you have yet to explain how this law being in effect would have made her whole regarding her damaged vehicle.

[Confusious]

24. The point is, they are Illegal, and shouldn't be here in the first place.

He would have gotten of easy with that. If it had been me as a citizen of the United States, I would have been in jail for driving without insurance.

[The Magistrate]

25. So What, Sir? That Is No Argument For A Clearly Unconstitutional And Racist Bill

[Confusious]

27. I wasn't making an argument for the bill

I was just stating a reason some people might want to see it passed. If it's happened to me, or a friend, it's probably happened to other people.

As far as my opinion on it, I don't know how I feel. I can see where it will be bad, where it won't make much difference, but I'm tired of people doing nothing.

Oh, and people saying it's the second coming of NAZI Germany, well, that's just over the top. I have my drivers license on me all the time. A driver's license is a valid form of ID for this bill.

When I haven't had it, they call it in to check. Not just here in AZ, but in AK also.

Michigan requires a valid ID on you at all times, from what I have heard.

[skipos]

33. "Michigan requires a valid ID on you at all times" I think you are confusing MI with North Korea

or something. I have lived here my whole life and never have heard of any ID requirements like that. At all.

[Confusious]

45. A little hyperbole on your part

I said, "I had heard."

It is a FACT though, in today's society, it is hard to get around without a car. And to do that, you need a drivers license, which a police officer can ask for at any time. If you do not have it, he will check your info, and if you lie, will drag you to jail.

Otherwise, if it does check out, you will have to pay a fine for not having it on you.

An AZ driver's license is valid ID for this bill, which makes us "NAZI Germany"

And I have had this ( Having my info checked and getting a ticket ) happen to me, more then once.

[treestar]

30. So would he

But you're taking but-for cause to an extreme. If she'd been hit by a citizen, that person was OK to be here, so what? Same result for her.

[Confusious]

32. If that person didn't have insurance

He would have been in jail.

A little different.

[Warren Stupidity]

67. Uh no - people get away with hit and run all the time.

Your story is nonsense. But that has been pointed out repeatedly here to no avail.

[blueamy66]

69. Not if you would have given a false name and ran off.

How is his being illegal any different?

[treestar]

28. This kind of thing makes no sense as an excuse

an American citizen could have done that.

And the reverse could happen - an illegal alien might save someone's life in another set of facts.

One's personal experience does not mean anything overall.

[Confusious]

44. Excellent dismissal! nt

[BlooInBloo]

59. Yup. It's just shit white folks like to say.

[Kali]

35. because no citizens ever lie to the cops and run off

I call bs on the story anyway

[Confusious]

43. Whatever.

You have your ideas about things, no person gonna change that, no matter what.

[Kali]

52. my "ideas" come from living 60 miles from the border

I have friends and travel in northern Mexico a fair amount too. Lived in AZ most of my life. My experience is direct, not a friend of a friend anecdote used by every right wing racist out there - the drunken illegal car accident - there is even a website for it!

[Desertrose]

66. If he gave a false name..how do you know he was "illegal"?

I mean seriously...c'mon. Gimmee a break here.

[Cleobulus]

47. How do you know it was an illegal immigrant and not just someone with no car insurance?

I've been hit by those before, and believe me, they will give false names and run off, and those would be citizens.

[billh58]

50. So ALL Hispanics,

both American citizens, and "legal" Green Card immigrants, should be subjected to racial profiling, and pony up and pay for this idiot's crime? Yeah, that makes sense.

[EFerrari]

56. How do you know he was undocumented?

[Bluebear]

57. Because he gave a false name...and then ran off...and then...well, fit this story, OK?

Good catch!

[Warren Stupidity]

64. right, because as we know, while not all illegal immigrants

are hit and run criminals, so far all hit and run criminals are illegal immigrants.

"The police should have stopped and detained him."

a) how exactly do you know that this person was an illegal immigrant if this person gave a false name and ran off?

b) if we accept your premise, then have you considered that if we allowed undocumented people to get drivers licenses and insurance, and if they did not face immediate deportation for such things as traffic accidents, hit and run would not be thier only option?

Sheesh.

[Hansel]

74. Really, this is what changed your mind?

You've never heard of any American citizens being the perpetrators of hit and run?

[yewberry]

15. Tales of murder and mayhem by illegal immigrants.

However...

"Over the last decade, the violent crime rate has dropped by 19 percent, while property crime is down by 20 percent. Crime has also declined in the rest of the country, but not as fast as in Arizona.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/04/22/how-immigration-c...

[Bluebear]

22. 'Like punching a wall, it may feel good for a moment, but it hurts a lot longer.'

From the article.

[Bluebear]

75. +

[treestar]

29. They are on the border, and maybe there are more crossings there

Cal., NM and TX seem not to be so hysterical no the subject, but there's a river to cross in Texas - illegal crossing might be more frequent.

But true there is nothing to show that after the crossing AZ has more illegals than any other state.

Whites are still a majority and might tend to be older, since it's a retirement destination, and older whites may be more prone to be racists (except DUers).

Because racism is ultimately behind it, no doubt.

[Kali]

36. too many brown people moving into white neighborhood in Maricopa county.

This law was in the works long before Bob Kreuntz was killed - and that was almost 100% drug related, not "illegal" immigrants.

On the other hand if you go into neighborhoods in the Valley that used to be middle class all white, they are now much more diverse. I grew up there and it has changed a lot. (for the better, if you ask me - my graduating class of 700 had maybe 10 non-white students)

[Xenotime]

49. Exactly. This is nothing but pure racism.

I sense a large tension building that will not end peacfully.

[Bluebear]

61. And not just in Arizona.

The nation seems to be a powderkeg

[KonaKane]

37. Sounds like business as usual in AZ, to me.

They opposed a Martin Luther King holiday when it was first advanced. Ex governor Ev Mecham did all he could to keep it from being a reality. AZ is also the home of one of the larger White Nationalist party auxillaries.

I would be more shocked if the legislature fought to pass something ANTI-racist.

[Kali]

51. yeah it pretty much is the SOS

I expect this will be tested and tossed by the courts and it will be just another embarrassing item on the list. The rather LONG list.

[BlooInBloo]

60. I'm pretty sure you mean "SOP".

[Kali]

65. that works too, but I actually meant "same old shit"

[BlooInBloo]

71. Ah yes - thanks!

[ohheckyeah]

40. There isn't much doubt in my mind that

violence along the AZ/Mexico border has increased. After I left AZ, friend there with the Forest Service have spotted people out in the desert with machine guns on almost a daily basis. Having said that, this law does nothing to improve that situation. The United States could greatly improve the violence on the border easily.....make marijuana legal.

Poverty in Mexico is the problem with the illegal immigrants that are not involved in the drug wars. Immigrants coming into the U.S. is the symptom. The problem could be greatly improved in a relatively short period of time if the Catholic Church would endorse birth control.

Why WOULDN'T Mexicans come across the border for a better life? Wouldn't we be clamoring to go to another country if we were faced with the crushing poverty of Mexico? I would.

I used to go into Mexico on a regular basis and the poverty was heartbreaking.

[ThoughtCriminal]

46. GOP in AZ is backlashing the 2008 election

The GOP controlled legislature is obsessed with fighting the national political trends. They are pandering to the most wacko, paranoid, and racist base and get worse every week. No idea is too crazy.

There is also a great political need for a big distraction. The state has one of the most serious fiscal problems in the country, thanks to a regressive tax structure crippled by years of tax cuts that heavily favored upper income residents. The state is broke and the huge cuts in education and health services are not going over very well.

[Telly Savalas]

53. State Senators being exposed to lead paint in their youth.

[Greyhound]

54. For about 30 years every incompetent, inept, bat-shit crazy asshole

from everywhere decided that being warm is the secret to a happy life and moved here. They happily passed "Right to work" laws because it was always going to be somebody else that lost their benefits and had their wages slashed. They eagerly decimated the tax base "'cause someday it'll be me on top and I don't want to pay taxes after all my hard work" and "No poor man ever gave me a job". And they turned the fruits of a century's hard work over to the most reprehensible scum they could dig up and are now wailing about how it's all those (Mexicans, Chinese, libruls) fault that their paradise has been foreclosed on.

[lonestarnot]

58. Female version of bushitler, unelected too to boot.

[RagAss]

62. Advanced Baggery !

[blueamy66]

70. 3 things...

pot is still illegal

AZ is full of conservative Mormons

AZ is full of retirement communities