Why it is difficult to prove you are a citizen.

[dixiegrrrrl]

This is from a dkos diary written by an immigration lawyer.
Excellent read on the almost impossible task of proving YOU are a citizen or legal resident.
"it really is IMPOSSIBLE for ANYBODY, including everybody at DHS, to make reliable, much less efficient, determinations of citizenship status."

AZ Law: Immigration Primer: Can of Worms

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/4/24/860319/-AZ-Law:-Immigration-Primer:-Can-of-Worms

[Duer 157099]

1. Of course, this is where the use of microchipping might start

Hard to fake a microchip.

The irony is that the fundaMENTALists religulots will reject this "mark of the beast" and yet it will have been their wingnuttery that opens the door for implementation of it.

[The Straight Story]

4. Don't need a chip: Invisible RFID Ink Safe For Humans

http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196802844

[Duer 157099]

6. Holy Fuck

That certainly will expedite things.

Shit, I don't believe in the biblical "mark of the beast" bullshit, but I still reject the idea of being tagged by my government!

Jesus fucking christ.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." Thomas Paine

I'm with Tom - who was an immigrant.

[elleng]

3. Birth certificate and passport.

but is it 'citizen?' haven't read the new 'law,' but MANY OTHERS are legally entitled to be here.

[Catshrink]

5. What if you don't have the long form BC?

Oops, President Obama, we'll have to detain you.

Do those little BC cards count? What if my passport expired? Is my driver's license good enough? How about my work ID?

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. The article covers each of those questions, btw.

[Igel]

10. It partially covers each of those questions.

And that's the problem.

Take one example.

If you fall into one class of resident, a passport by itself won't necessarily be sufficient to establish citizenship. Of course, the vast majority of citizens aren't in that class so that a passport does a perfectly fine job of establishing citizenship. But we understand the article to say that a passport by itself is insufficient for everybody.

What he says is true. What we understand is false. The difference is in conversational maxims, the rules of how the communication "game" is played. Laywers are famous for manipulating their listeners by being fully aware of the assumptions that the listeners will make and giving them just enough evidence to cause them to make those assumptions, knowing that the assumptions are false and the conclusions will be false. They also know that if the conclusions are what people want to believe, if disputing is onerous or requires knowledge that the listener won't be aware of not having or not want to admit not having, it doesn't matter, the assumptions will be assumed to be true--after all, would a lawyer, pundit, or politician lie? In these situations, "critical thinking" has as many practicioners as enemas sold in subway stations for use on the trains during morning rush hour would have users.

[etherealtruth]

8. Even if it weren't difficult (acknowledging that it is)

It will be embarrassing, time consuming and detrimental (do you leave an hour or two early for work and appointments to allow extra time in case you have to prove your citizenship).

[FarCenter]

9. It may not be simple, but the government does it all the time.

For example, a Department of Defense investigation as part of the background check for a clearance to handle classified information will typically make a good effort to establish your citizenship.

[eomer]

11. "A good effort" is part of the problem.

In immigration matters they are not, have not been, making a good effort in many cases. In fact they are often doing the opposite: trying hard to not allow the detainees to have an opportunity to make their case, coercing them into signing away their rights, so they can deport them more easily. Due process is apparently just a bother to ICE. I would imagine that Arizona enforcement will fall into that same approach in many cases.