There is no law we can pass that will "fix" illegal immigration

[EFerrari]

because these immigrants are economic refugees of our foreign policy in Latin America and in the Caribbean.

So, it doesn't matter if Obama takes up immigration this year or ever. What matters is what he is doing to support democracy, human rights and fair trade in that region.

It will not work to pass laws for deportation or ones that put employers of undocumented workers out of business or in prison (although that will never happen). Because while some of you may see this as a problem domestic in origin, it's the natural consequence of a regional policy and cannot be fixed here.

It's actually really simple. There are posters that have compared illegal immigration to someone breaking into your home. Let's go with that metaphor. You live in a gated community and you keep blowing up all the smaller houses on your block. At that point, you can expect the survivors of these explosions to seek shelter in your home even if they have to break in.

Of course, none of us have blown up Latin America but Chiquita and Coca Cola and Bechtel and Exxon have. Do these names sound familiar to anybody? The only real difference between these vultures' preying on them and preying on us is that (so far) our government pretends to be outraged when we're screwed by Exxon and (so far) the Marines haven't been sent in to keep us in line. That's about it.

If people understood this economic predation that produces refugees from Latin America and unemployment, foreclosure and other blights here, they'd see that working people here and there are treated like dirt and then, set against each other by the same @ssholes. As John Perkins, Naomi Klein and others have noted recently, the same disaster capital strategies once only used in third world countries are now being used on the states.

We have a lot in common, these "illegal aliens" and those of us struggling to keep a roof over our families' head here.

[ret5hd]

1. May I be the first to K&R?

[eleny]

2. Amen.

Some problems have no answers agreeable to all.

[Bobbieo]

3. Have these stupid people in the AZ Legislature who have passed SB 1070,

realize they have set police officers all over the state with the opportunity create the biggest blackmail scam in history. God help anyone in the state with dark skin!!!!

[EFerrari]

16. I think they are trying to tamp down the teahadist anger

by throwing them some red meat.

[izquierdista]

4. They even teach it here

How to treat people like dirt I & II at the School of the Americas.

[EFerrari]

6. They sell it on Faux News 24/7. n/t

[mzteris]

5. the US has always tacitly supported

"illegal immigration" -

We turn a blind eye when the economy is good and jobs are plentiful. Cheap labor for those jobs no one wants to do . .

When then economy goes sour, then

"OMG!!! get rid of all of those "illegals" taking Amurkhin JOBS! Cause now that I don't have a "good job" paying "good money" I'm willing to do the crap jobs I wasn't before but now those darn "illegals" are taking MY JOBS and MY MONEY!

I want them out and I want them out NOW! Until I can get my old job back making the big bucks and I can hire that illegal under the table for el cheapo to mow my damn lawn. "





(shouldn't have to add this, but to forestall any "deliberate misinterpretations" of my post: :sarcasm: for those last comments.)

[EFerrari]

8. And few of us are aware of what is happening in those countries

with the full support of our government, backed up by our military and funded with our taxes.

It's a huge scam. The multinationals screw the people there and our government supports them because they are big donors, the biggest donors. Then, those people are forced to come north and then the Republicans use these poor people for fundraising as they are doing in Arizona.

[walldude]

7. Your point also applies to almost everything we do

Whatever the issue is Terrorism, Banking, Wall Street, Abortion, we spend an insane amount of time attacking the surface of an issue instead of attacking the root causes. We love to hack at weeds, but pulling out the roots, really solving problems? We seem to really suck at that.

[EFerrari]

If you think about it, all of those things were sold to us

by scapegoating someone -- by calling up our instinct to protect what is ours.

Terrorism -- it's those Muslins.

Banking -- it's those poor black people that ACORN put in mansions.

Abortion -- it's those godless murdering liberals (but it also has a racist subtext).

We seem to be suckers for scapegoats.

[Jennicut]

40. That is the point. Scapegoat others and blame any of our problems on them.

So much easier then actually solving our actual economic problems, isn't it?

[EFerrari]

42. Right -- or realizing that these people come here

because their own economies have been tanked by American or Canadian or French (but mostly American) vultures, just as ours has. We're actually on the same side.

[The Magistrate]

9. Indeed, Ma'am

Illegal immigration will pretty much cease when workers in Mexico and points south receive a decent income where they are citizens. Oddly enough, that would work wonders of improvement in the lives of workers here in the U.S. as well....

[EFerrari]

13. It upsets me to see working people disrespected, Your Honor.

Whether they be my own sons or someone else's children. To have them then misdirected into conflict with each other is cowardly if predictable.

[bridgit]

48. Wasn't that a goal of NAFTA?

http://regions.cummins.com/regions/index_mx.jsp

[jody]

10. "Passing" laws never fixes any problem but "enforcing" laws may fix a problem. n/t

[EFerrari]

12. Do you really think that hungry people can be contained by enforcement?

I don't.

It would be much more efficient to stop blowing up their homes and letting them stay there, where they want to be.

[jody]

14. I said "'enforcing' laws MAY fix a problem" pointing out the futility of just "passing" laws without

appropriating adequate funds to implement those laws.

Yes I do believe enforcement could contain hungry people but IMO that would be immoral and extremely costly.

[EFerrari]

15. There is no profit in enforcement for the biggest donors

of both parties. That's another way to look at it.

[jody]

18. Makes sense to me and it keeps illegal aliens as a divisive, polarizing issue that

gets votes for both parties while letting corporatists control bipartisan support for bills that strengthen their strangle hold on We the People's government.

[EFerrari]

20. That's it exactly, imho. n/t

[WillyT]

11. HUGE K & R !!!

:applause:

Bravo!!!

:kick:

:hi:

[county worker]

17. Most of the immigrants from Mexico would be Dems if given the choice so we have that in common.

Most would be middle class or lower so we have that in common. Most are family oriented so we have that in common. Most want a better life for themselves and for their families, we have that in common.

It seems to me that if we did not let the corporations and right wing media turn us against each other we would have much to gain by uniting as one group and fighting for a better life for all of us. If they became citizens and voted Dem we would grow our party and power. If we and they fought for unions and better jobs and working conditions we would all gain. There is strength in numbers.

We need to become allies not enemies. Being enemies only helps those who take advantage of all of us. We are all being oppressed by the same man. The way to end that is to work together not against each other, that only helps the man.

[EFerrari]

19. Precisely. Thanks for getting it, county worker. n/t

[county worker]

21. I use to be a great xenophobe.

[EFerrari]

22. LOL

:)

[tekisui]

23. knr.

[grahamhgreen]

24. How bout - ALL WORKERS MUST BE UNIONIZED?

[EFerrari]

25. Capital has globalized so labor must globalize.

Because that would handle the incentive to move production, wouldn't it?

[jody]

26. OK capital is organized so organize labor but what about consumers, who protects them? n/t

[grahamhgreen]

28. labor is the consumers. nt

[jody]

29. Only in a fascist government. If people retain their inalienable rights then at least some will not

willingly join a labor union.

When that happens "organized capital" and "organized labor" reach compromises that set prices which are detrimental to "unorganized consumers".

Those who propose "organized capital" and "organized labor" that includes all people will need a central planning agent, i.e. government, that is omnipotent.

When that happens the result is a totalitarian state aka fascism.

[EFerrari]

35. Capital is already globalized.

We are already in their hands -- as we've seen for the last two years or so. If working people are going to have any power in this situation at all, we also need to globalize labor. That's not fascism because it comes from the bottom up, not the top down.

[jody]

43. Do you propose that all labor goals be adopted by simple majority & then enforced by labor? n/t

[EFerrari]

45. I don't think you need worry about being oppressed by a union

given that unions are at the moment being targeted for destruction all over the country.

[jody]

46. LOL have a great day and goodbye. n/t

[treestar]

39. Exactly, all the whining about who is where is useless

And there's no way to enforce against outsourcing, and that is more dangerous to us than illegal immigrants, who at least are here and have to live life on American terms.

[sfpcjock]

27. True

Practically speaking, the GOP is going to hang themselves on this one. Can't wait for the AZ(hole) governor to approve this today...I didn't jinks it, did I :toast:

[EFerrari]

30. ..

[Kitty Herder]

31. Amen!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Most Norteamericanos know NOTHING about what their country has done in Latin America

Maybe they know about NAFTA.

If their memories have room for anything but sports statistics and celebrity gossip, they may recall Reagan's support of repressive regimes in Central and South America, the undermining of the Sandinista revolution, the invasion of Panama, the overthrow of Aristide in Haiti, and the invasion of Grenada. If they're my age, they may remember the invasion of the Dominican Republic, the CIA-inspired right-wing "revolution" in Brazil, the hostility toward Castro from the get-go, and the CIA-inspired overthrow of Allende in Chile. I know I'm forgetting a few, but those are the ones I can remember offhand.

A few years ago, I spoke with a U.S. Army vet who had been an "advisor" in El Salvador. Only he assured me that they had been much more than "advisors" and he was clearly wracked with guilt for some of the things that he had done there.

I once saw a list of the times that the U.S. sent troops into Latin American and Caribbean in the twentieth century. It was literally dozens of times. Every time some right-wing dictator saw his position endangered by popular revolts, all he had to do was whistle, and the U.S. would send in the Marines to "keep the peace."

Latin America is mostly neglected in American social studies curricula, but my grade school was unusual in that all of sixth grade was devoted to Canada and Latin America, so when I heard of these events, it was easy for me to connect them with what I had learned in school. (When we were each assigned a Caribbean island to report on, my assignment was Grenada, so you can bet I paid close attention in 1983 before, during, and after the invasion.)

By the way, if you're wondering why some of us defend Hugo Chavez in spite of the bad press he gets in this country, it's because we've seen this movie before. The demonization of Chavez is standard operating procedure whenever a Latin American leader threatens the wealthy and powerful.

The wealthy and powerful often have business and social connections with the American elites who run the mass media, so we get bullshit stories. During the 1980s, there were news stories about "anti-Semitism" in Nicaragua. This seemed odd to me, because usually there's no bigotry unless a country has a noticeable population of the relevant group to be prejudiced against. (Anybody in the U.S. prejudiced against the Ainu or the Uighurs?) Years later, it was revealed that John Negroponte (remember him?) had planted those stories.

So whenever the U.S. press starts demonizing any Latin American leader, I start wondering whose toes he has stepped on.

[EFerrari]

33. I'm predicting Evo will be a more prominent target

now that he's rejected that farce in Copenhagen. They already started on him yesterday by turning his comments about frankenfood into slurs against gay people.

One thing we know, everybody on this board can "remember" Honduras. Their democratically elected, reformer leader was ousted for -- raising the minimum wage, instituting small reforms in education and looking into ways to make Honduras more independent. And he couldn't have been ousted without help from Washington.

[fishwax]

34. we ignore context at our peril -- k/r

:kick:

[Hello_Kitty]

36. K and R. eom

[blindpig]

37. Solidarity

That is the bottom line, the solidarity of of working people everywhere against our common enemy, capital.

k&r

[alarimer]

38. Bingo.

I think is spot-on.
NAFTA is a major reason illegal immigration has escalated. All that cheap corn imported into Mexico and Central America put those farmers out of work. So they come here. I do not blame them at all for doing so illegally. They pay a small fortune to do so, money they have borrowed, sometimes from the smugglers or their employers, which puts them immediately in hock like indentured servants. It may take years to get out from under this.

For those who are able to work and save, a lot of that money goes back to their families and props up the economies of those countries. The leaders are therefore not much interested in doing anything about illegal immigration into the US.

You cannot just blame the migrants for the problems. In order to stop illegal immigration (most Republicans that are not racist right-wingers are cheap labor conservatives; they love illegal immigration for the depressive effect it has on wages) our policies will have to take this into consideration. A broader immigration policy will have to including ending these free trade agreements, which help no one but multinational corporations. Also we will have to assist these countries in improving their own economies.

It is a complex issue and not so simple as just sending all the illegal immigrants home.

[The Magistrate]

41. For People Serious About Actually Altering The Flow Of Workers Across The Border, Ma'am....

Enforce the laws on the books against employers of undocumented immigrants.

Enforce labor laws in favor of workers and unions in this country.

Insist on workers' rights and higher wages in developing countries we trade with, rather than devoting our foreign policy to keeping the price of labor cheap in South America and elsewhere.

[EFerrari]

44. I'm afraid that labor has been so weakened here in the states

that only a global movement will help build it back up. And in particular, what is being done to the teachers' unions comes to mind. It makes you wonder who is next -- nurses?

Also, on the other end of a proposed solution, the tamping down of workers' rights in Latin America has increased since the election. There has been more problematic behavior from our State Department, not less. I don't know if it's because entrenched interests have exploited a moment when the administration is overloaded with other, higher profile concerns. But that's what is happening at the moment.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. "Workers of the world, Unite!" is, actually, a pretty good idea. K&R

[LostInAnomie]

49. I'm pretty sure enforcement of the laws we have now would do a good job of fixing the problem.

Fine the employers that hire illegal immigrants. Take away the jobs and they won't come or stay.

[BurtWorm]

50. Well said.

:applause:

I would only add that it's not the US per se that's causing the hemispheric crises driving mass migration toward the US. It's the "free marktet" corporate capitalism that US government policies support that's doing the damge.

[EFerrari]

51. Well, that's true but those multinational entities rely on our military

in Latin American and in the Caribbean to back up their agenda. :hi:

[bridgit]

52. Would that there were one region to consider;

Smuggling Illegal Chinese Immigrants

Illegal immigrants pay smugglers as much as $60,000 for the trip from China to New York or some other destination in the United States. A fake business visa may cost $50,000. A fake marriage to an American costs $70,000. Snakeheads in Fujian charge between $10,000 and $20,000 for passage to Japan and between $40,000 and $70,000 to the United States. The fee for Hungary is $12,000. Illegal immigrants have paid $19,000 to $30,000 to be smuggled to Britain via Myanmar and Brazil and $45,000 for other routes into Britain.

Most migrants have no difficulty paying the fees, which are regarded as investments. Families and relatives pool their money together and send the best male candidate abroad with hopes for big payoffs in the future. Once a method to get overseas is worked out and the debt is paid off, money is pooled again to get additional family members over.

Many Chinese immigrants start in Fuzhou or other coastal towns in Fujian Province. From there they are sent by freighter, by air with false visas or hidden in cargo containers. People who get caught often claim asylum. Some say they are members of the Falun Gong. Some women say they are fleeing forced sterilization. The asylum process can sometimes last for years. In that times they work and make babies.

For several thousand dollars visa-consulting companies will help Chinese get visas to the United States. The companies prepare business cards and paperwork for fake computer companies, coach applicants for their interviews with U.S. embassy officials, and help them take steps to get a green card once in the United States. Those that enter this way typically enter with a tourist visa and overstay their visa.

The illegal immigrant trade is not without its risks and unscrupulous entrepreneurs. In September 2003 thirteen people were arrested in Fuzhou and Putian cities in Fujian Province after six Chinese women drowned after they were thrown overboard from a boat smuggling them from China to Taiwan.

Chinese stowaways discovered on a large fishing boat with a Taiwanese crew had been beaten by the crew, used as slaves, forced into group masturbation sessions and forced to have oral sex and anal intercourse. One of the Chinese men on the boat said he was forced to do all this after paying $26,000 for what he thought was an airplane ticket to the U.S. Others were forced to sign an IOU in blood for $20,000.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=1034&catid=5&subcatid=29#10

"Chiquita and Coca Cola and Bechtel and Exxon have. Do these names sound familiar to anybody?" How can they not firstly, aside from being Hallmark jokers in the same deck of bent-eared cards that no one shuffles they just keep dealing from hand after hand; they are elements able to comprise the myopic vision used to exalt South American Socialism as sacrosanct and beyond reproach. While looking right past the oligarchs of Brazilia, the filthy old Mayflower money, the handed down family names of The Middle Kingdom and anyone and everyone else abusing the workers of the world and oh by the way they are legion

You can go down to the Adante on Geary and watch & listen to new chamber maid - what? Workers? New American "illegal" chamber maids? New soon-to-be naturalized American citizens? New "illegals" period? New protesters protesting in favor of undocumented access to higher education the UC system, social and ER services - and all with their attorneys in tow filing law suit after law suit after law suit? Maybe it doesn't matter till they count out the change wrong. But to suggest America isn't providing these options even to people without any inclination to pursue documented status; is to look right past the viciously violent drug cartels every bit as likely driving the same people out of their homes with their pernicious, addictive behaviors

I do think the issue is much larger than the Socialist agenda of South America and the Caribbean, much larger. With many other contributors than the, granted, sometime ill-effects of America and her trade policy

[EFerrari]

53. And here is Exhibit A.

This is a press release from COHA, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs. It's a pretty good rundown of what the US did lately in Honduras -- help the oligarchy get rid of a progressive, reforming, democratically elected president because he took small steps to protect working people. Caution: it is critical of Obama.

________________

Washington’s Invented Honduran Democracy
Friday, 23 April 2010, 12:47 pm
Press Release: Council on Hemispheric Affairs

Washington’s Invented Honduran Democracy

by COHA Staff


• With the wave of killings now besieging the country, the White House will be hard put to provide credible evidence that it has helped found a democracy in Honduras

• It should come as no surprise that the Obama administration’s disappointing Honduran policy has done little to discourage the seventh murder of a Honduran journalist in recent days, making the tiny Central American country the world’s murder capital when it comes to gunning down media professionals with impunity.

Since the constitutionally-elected government of President Manuel Zelaya was overthrown by a military coup on June 28, 2009, Washington has dragged its feet and repeatedly has acted as an apologist in first defending the Honduran de facto government of Roberto Micheletti and its successor, the government of Porfirio Lobo Sosa. Although the (U.S. based) National Democratic Institute’s characterized Lobo’s election as democratic, it was boycotted by dozens of anti-coup candidates, carried out under conditions of state-sanctioned violence, and the UN, EU, OAS and Carter Center refused to send monitors to Honduras to evaluate the quality of the elections. Despite the U.S. position of glossing over the non-democratic aspects associated with U.S. policy towards Honduras, most of the world has established a cordon sanitaire around the tainted heir of the coup government and has blocked military, financial, and diplomatic ties to it.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1004/S00454.htm

____________

I submit that the next wave of "illegals" will be from Honduras. If we want that to stop, we have to stop blowing up Latin American democracies and their efforts at reform. There is no way we can stop illegal immigration AND continue to protect corporate interests from workers' rights in Latin America.

Thanks to Judi Lynn for posting this article in the LatAm forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x35074