Bill Moyers Journal: "It is the longest war in American History, And it is a war.....

[bvar22]

...for which there is no end in sight. And to my mind, it is a war that is utterly devoid of strategic purpose. And the fact that that gets so little attention from our political leaders, from the press or from our fellow citizens, I think is simply appalling, especially when you consider the amount of money we're spending over there and the lives that are being lost whether American or Afghan."
---Andrew Bacevich, Bill Moyers Journal, April 9, 2010

An excellent interview, and an excellent analysis of our situation in Afghanistan.
Andrew Bacevich is retired from the Army after serving 23 years, including active duty in VietNam.
He is currently a professor of history and international relations at Boston University.


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04092010/transcript3.html

BILL MOYERS: "The news from that torturous battleground continues to dismay, discourage and enrage. America's designated driver there, Hamid Karzai, is proving increasingly unstable behind the wheel. The United States put Karzai in power and our soldiers have been fighting and dying on his behalf ever since. Despite widespread corrupton in his government. Now he's making threats against the western coalition that is shedding blood and treasure on his behalf.

Even more disturbing,for the moment, are the civilian deaths from nighttime raids andaerial bombings by American and other NATO troops. Just this week, we learned of an apparent cover-up following a Special Forces raid in February that killed five civilians, including three women, two of whom were pregnant. It's believed bullets were gouged from the women's bodies to conceal evidence of American involvement.

This slaughter of innocents has led the pro-American "Economist" magazine to question whether ourentire effort in Afghanistan" has been nothing but a meaningless exercise of misguided violence."


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04092010/transcript3.html

Doesn't anyone watch Bill Moyers anymore? :shrug:


"We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat,"---General McChrystal

[Echo In Light]

1. k/r

[Subdivisions]

2. 'Kill babies, kill!' n/t

[SocialistLez]

3. I LOVE Bill Moyers

I watch it every Friday and try to watch the re-runs.
I plan on buying a few DVDs.

[SocialistLez]

5. 53% of our tax dollars support this

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/04/13-4

Sorry, no health care. Killing Iraqis and Afghans is more important.

[upi402]

4. Moyers is great. Thanks for this!

I'm busy at 9pm when it's on here. They replay it at 4a., conveniently.
PBS fell into the control of Republicans during the reign of King George the 1st.

[kenny blankenship]

6. Sssh... This is a Democratic site!

We don't talk about the war. If you want to talk about the ar-way, say "banana" instead.

And don't talk about bananas.

[file83]

27. I still find it so pathetic...

how everyone here was 95% agreeing the war in Iraq/Afghan/etc. should end immediately when Bush was in office, but now that Obama is in office, people here are just kind of like...not talking about it or are like "what war?"...

It's numbing.

[HughMoran]

44. Not true

People were wanting the illegal war in Iraq to end immediately. Many here agreed that we should refocus on Afghanistan as Obama was promising during the election. DU has traditionally supported (in the majority) our going into Afghanistan after 9/11.

[ChiciB1]

51. AFGHANISTAN Is Almost WORSE Because It Lives Way Back In About

the FOURTH century and corruption has been one of it's primary functions!! It pretty well did in RUSSIA, and we're well on our way to have it done to us!!

The INSANITY really MUST stop, but perhaps it never will until we here in America have gone the way of ROME!!

And, I don't say these words lightly... it's FEAR I feel!

[sabrina 1]

53. Anyone who supported going into Afghanistan

was simply reacting as they were supposed to do, to emotionalism. Most people around the world were against this war and AIRC the real reasons for it were known at the time. Most people I know were against it. And, as soon as people began to wake up from fear-induced coma after 9/11, many did realize how wrong it was. Using 9/11 to go to war was an insidious and shameful manipulation of the public's reaction to that tragedy.

[HughMoran]

55. Then why did a majority here support the "going into Afghanistan after 9/11" reason 4 years later?

2005 - Should we have invaded Afghanistan after 9/11 – 51% yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4401940&mesg_id=4401940

2006 - 2 polls (GDP & GD) combined - "Was the US war against the Taliban of Afghanistan the right thing to do?" - 59% yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1657770
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2728191

Even in late 2009 & 2010, 30% here still support Afghanistan and Obama's surge:

Support for Afghanistan – 30%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7958336

Support for Iraq – 0%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7955073

Support Obama’s troop surge in Afghanisan – 32%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7142239

Support Obama’s decision to send more troops – 26%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7130413

Support troop increase – 30%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7131902

[sabrina 1]

58. Because of 9/11

And democrats especially were afraid, as always, of being called unpatriotic if they didn't support what was cynically called the 'good war'. It was wrong from the start. Except for the profiteers who are the only ones who benefit from most wars.

As for the support here since it became a Democratic war, that is the reason why. Republicans supported Bush's wars, some Democrats will do the same if it is their party's war.

But even before the Afghanistan war started, experts on the area predicted exactly what has happened there and advised against it. And as a matter of fact, at the time even rightwingers weren't fully supporting it until it began. Then as they said 'we have to get on board'.

The majority has been wrong so often about so many things, it's not much of a reason to assume something is right. Most of that opinion is based on propaganda from the media. The American people do not get news, and they have no clue what is going on there so how can they support it.

Several months ago I posted a comment on this about how much worse off the women in Afghanistan are since this war began, and five people here responded angrily, posting Bush propaganda about how great they were doing, which apparently they believed. The truth, as the women themselves have stated over and over again, they are far worse off now and I doubt anyone who really followed the war, which btw was called 'the forgotten war' until Obama decided to escalate it, ever had any doubt about how much worse off the people of Afghanistan are since we invaded the country.

And the sad thing is, just as the U.S. has withdrawn from this area, they will leave the entire country too when they grow tired of not winning, or realize how hopeless it is, and once again, the people there will be left to deal with our mess.

[mmonk]

37. Banana.

:rofl:

[Arctic Dave]

7. Fighting an unnecessary and illogical war and the military wonders

why they have a suicide problem.

Heres a hint, the military personnel know this is FUBAR.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

8. Remember during the Bush years --

we used to lament about certain stories disappearing "down the memory hole"???

I am sad to say the two wars we are waging have all but gone down the memory hole. And that it has happened here, of all places, is a big tragedy. :(

[file83]

29. Agree 100%

I frequent here much less after I expressed outrage at Obama's change to being pro war after his campaign of tons of non-war promises, and then I got put down by many here for proclaiming the emperor had no clothes.

I'm like, wait I thought we were for principles, and people are like no we need to stand behind Obama and...

...and I was like woah. Scary.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. It has been sadly enlightening --

to find there are as many sheep in the Democratic Party as in the GOP. :( I thought we were supposed to be the smart ones. :shrug:

Hang in there here with us -- we need as many people fighting for principles as we can get. :hi:

[amborin]

9. K&R

[amborin]

10. K&R

[Uncle Joe]

11. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, bvar.

[FiveGoodMen]

12. ...a war for which we can thank the assholes in the White House

Past and present.

[tekisui]

13. knr

[Solly Mack]

14. k/r

[progressoid]

15. Bill must not have gotten his pony yet.

k/r

[truedelphi]

16. My guess ios that like the rest of us, bill did get his pony

Only it was saddled up with coupons good for ten cents off the next health care deductible, and colorful brochures promising that troop withdrawals would be coming soon.

[and-justice-for-all]

17. it is an occupation, not a war...nt

[Blue Owl]

18. I wrote the White House earlier today

Expressing my displeasure for these needless wars based on lies.

Keep hammering away, the GOP is on the ropes...

[chill_wind]

19. Amen and thank you. K & R.

War is a Racket.

[waiting for hope]

20. K&R

Isn't Moyers show being replaced? Putting my tinfoil on, maybe it's because he speaks to truth.

[tango-tee]

21. K&R, bvar.

And just to let you know: Your posts are always worth reading. Thank you.

[Mari333]

22. knr

[liberation]

23. Indeed. I don't think many people comprehend we have been in a continuous state of war for a decade.

for all intents and purposes.

And all to catch a 7 ft tall goat f*cker with bad kidneys and the worst kept beard this side of Tehran.

[change_notfinetuning]

24. And this with the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Sadly, though some

wars may be necessary for survival, these are "dumb wars" per Obama's own definition from before he became president. But then, no one thinks his babies are dumb, and these are definitely his babies now. Let's hope he sees the light soon. In the meantime, Democrats should put just as much pressure on him as they would on a Republican president with the same policies.

[shanti]

25. and we're losing it

last son's hs buddy is a marine who will have his first tour of afghanistan soon. after two years, he's just now realizing that he made a mistake in signing up. :( HE was told that we are losing there. how awful it must be to know that your efforts will be futile, but you're there anyway...

[harun]

38. They never knew how to even define what a "win" would be.

We never should have tried to "win", we should simply try to rebuild a bit of the country, then leave it to them.

[Grinchie]

26. It's the only thing preventing Hyperinflation!

Nothing like destroying billions of dollars of money printed out of thin air by flushing it down the rat hole of War.

The destruction of excess Fiat money is the true purpose of Endless War.

I do know one thing, and that is the automated cruise missiles won't save you if some miscreant decides to randomly select you as a target for some random crime.

[Ardent15]

28. K and R for Moyers

nt

[Mike K]

30. Bacevich refers to what the U.S. is doing in Afghanistan -

- as a war because of his military orientation. For him it is a residual perception. He was a professional soldier and for soldiers there are only two states of being, either war or peace, and the soldiers serving in Afghanistan are not at peace. But the reality is the United States, i.e., the American People as a whole, hasn't been at war since 1945.

The reality is the nation Americans once had cause to be proud of has evolved into a militarily oppressive materialistic empire which is feared and despised by the rest of the world.

[laststeamtrain]

31. K & R - Bacevich is essential reading.

The anti-interventionist POV you don't get from the usual chit-chat media.

[miscsoc]

39. bacevich's essay in the london review of books

"social work with guns", is well worth reading

[xxqqqzme]

32. Don't miss Moyers

Sadly, we only have a couple of weeks left.

[Enthusiast]

33. Get out of Afghanistan NOW!

Bomb the shit out of the poppy fields and get out.

[retired af major]

42. That would really piss them off

Those flowers are key to the American hearts and minds policy. The farmers of Afghanistan would have nothing to live on and the nation's economy would collapse. Try to consider those fields of flowers third world health care. It's the pharmacy of the third world. Centuries old effective pain relief without visitng a doctor or pharmacy. Imagine.

[Enthusiast]

59. Bomb it. nt

[madchick44]

34. What is the REAL agenda for being in Afghanistan now?

The real reason for anything is usually found two layers under the claimed reasons. It's not the Taliban, and it is not Al-queada. So what are the real reasons?

[old mark]

35. Afghanistan has been a trap fpr everyone who has tried to fight a war in it.

The British in the 19th century and the Soviets in the late 20th centiry and now us in the 21st. It will cost many more lives and much more money and will accomplish absolutely nothing. There is NO REASON to be there - get us out now.
Mark
Former Sp4, 1-504, 82nd Airborne Division.

[democrank]

36. K & R

Thank you for this, bvar22. Your posts are always a refreshing blast of reality that cuts through all the BS that has plagued DU in the last months.

My position on Iraq and Afghanistan didn`t change after the election. I`m not going to support the same policies under President Obama that I was against under President Bush.

[Mosaic]

40. It's war for the sake of war,

It's war for the sake of war, most are barbarians who could care less. "War is a racket" as Smedly Butler said so long ago. Why Lord did we not listen to him all along?

[patrice]

41. That says it all.

It's a pissing contest, except, in this case, they're pissing blood.

It is PROFOUNDLY discouraging. It's affecting my sense of identification with this stupid country.

[Jakes Progress]

43. Remember when you thought of a Democrat

you thought of Bill Moyers. Oh, well.

[retired af major]

45. they don't call it the graveyard of empires for nothing ...

The US and allies need to leave Afghanistan. Protecting Karzi, poppy fields and securing a foothold for American corporations is not in this nation's vital interests. This 'nation building' exercise should have been completed years ago, but sadly gets worse and worse.

The US needs to stop breaking soldiers and put some effort into fixing them.

[harun]

52. +1

[Dr.Phool]

46. I watch Moyers without fail, every week.

Gonna miss him when he retires.

[defendandprotect]

47. No -- I don't . . . and never have . . .

I've never known any one more likely to put people to sleep than Bill Moyers --

and I've always distrusted him because of his links to LBJ --

which included, according to Pierre Salinger . . . that they both recognized LBJ

to be "clinically psychotic."

The right wing destroyed PBS decades ago -- but left Bill Moyers behind?

Nothing wrong with what he says . . . but have never known him to say anything in a

way that would get anyone up off their couch to do something about it!

Now -- Phil Donahue on PBS doing a two hour program on health care a few decades ago --

THAT did something!



PS: And, btw, how much info do you need to know that we should never have been in

Afghanistan and that the Bush Wars which the Dems have been re-funding for 4 years now

are bankrupting our Treasury? Also that US/CIA corruption includes drug dealing.

And, that we created the Taliban/Al Qaeda and used it to "bait the Russians into Afghanistan

in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type experience" during the Carter era, financing it up to

9/11 thru ISI Pakistan.

We also created those horrifically violent Islamic Text books we've heard so much in an effort

to create a violent Islam -- and shipped them into the ME.

Maybe Moyers also told you that?

And we need Bill Moyers to tell us this? How dumb are we?

Nancy Pelosi 2006 - day after the election - on video: "Democrats were elected to end the wars!"

[happyslug]

48. That is because the continuing Violence in Haiti between 1915 and 1934 was by "bandits" not rebels.

Thus the 19 years of low level fighting in Haiti does NOT count (Please note the US pulled out in 1934 after FDR sent his trusted personal military adviser to review the situation in Haiti. The Adviser told FDR to get the US forces out, something the US forces in Haiti said was "To dangerous" and it would be better for US forces to stay then to leave (And FDR had been involved in the initial takeover of Haiti in 1915 when he was in the Navy Department):

More on Haiti:
http://haitiforever.com/windowsonhaiti/am-occup.htm

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/386.html

Please watch the net, most keep citing the US propaganda reports of the 1920s pointing out the physical improvements done in Haiti under US occupation and ignore that this was done be forced labor (i.e. Haitian were ordered to work on the roads and kept they by gun point) and that the main purpose of the roads was to ease US military movements to put down any local Resistance to the occupation (with a secondary aim of helping the increasing number of US owned plantations to ship their crops back to the US, i.e. the local benefit was NOT the main purpose but saying it was made HOW it was done more acceptable to the American people back home).

Lets us NOT forget the US occupation of Nicaragua, 1912-1933, which also ended while the US was still fighting "Bandits":

Sandino clearly form 1927-1933:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_C%C3%A9sar_Sandino

Now Sandino was the largest and last, the US faced military opposition from 1912 onward:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Nicaragua

[ChiciB1]

50. My Goodness "bvar22" Don't YOU Know These Aren't Wars??

I mean theoretically nobody has "actually" declared it that way!! However, the OCCUPATION of countries for years after year after should NEVER be called ANYTHING but WAR!!

All the Protest Marches I've attended since they started NEVER got any of the massive type of coverage that these KOOK JOB Tea-Baggers are getting!! We are so screwed!

Palin/Bachmann/Army etc., get soooooooo much attention and tell so many LIES, and exceptionally deceiving LIES that much of it sticks because it so hard to wade through to get to ANY truth of what they're saying! Therefor, THEIR LIES SELL!!

I have wondered far too long what or when it going to take enough people to stand up and get away from our screens and start hitting the streets!!!

Maybe starting small in many, many cities like the Tea-Baggers have done is the answer instead of the MASSIVE Marches of the past. I don't know, but it's gonna break this country, I can feel it coming and it ain't gonna be pretty!!

I LOVE BILL MOYERS, and have followed him since "forever!"

Thanks bvar22!!
:grr: :nuke:

[Eyerish]

54. K&R

[malaise]

56. K & R

End the wars

[dadzilla]

57. Thumbs up on Moyers!

Bill Moyers is a excellent source of perspective on the issues. You can subscribe to his podcast via Itunes.