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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 11:37 AM
Original message
However, he's not immune to God's judgement
Pope has immunity in abuse trials: Vatican


Reuters Pope Benedict XVI waves to the faithful as he leaves after his weekly audience in St. Peter's Square


By Philip Pullella Thu Apr 1, 8:16 am ET

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) Pope Benedict, accused by victims' lawyers of being ultimately responsible for a cover-up of sexual abuse of children by priests, cannot be called to testify at any trial because he has immunity as a head of state, a top Vatican legal official said on Thursday.

The interview with Giuseppe dalla Torre, head of the Vatican's tribunal, was published in Italy's Corriere della Sera newspaper as Pope Benedict began Holy Thursday services in St Peter's Basilica and Catholics marked the most solemn week of the liturgical calendar, culminating on Sunday in Easter Day.

The pope did not refer in his sermon to the crisis of confidence sweeping the Church as almost daily revelations surface of sexual abuse of children in the past, accompanied by allegations of a cover-up.

Dalla Torre outlined the Vatican's strategy to defend the pope from being forced to testify in several lawsuits concerning sexual abuse which are currently moving through the U.S. legal system.

"The pope is certainly a head of state, who has the same juridical status as all heads of state," he said, arguing he therefore had immunity from foreign courts.


link


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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
1. Which might mean something if he actually believed in god.
The higher rank you are in ANY religion, the less belief you have. You know too much, you've seen too many deals, too many compromises, to many crimes to sustain innocent belief.

I doubt that one in a hundred church leaders - from the Catholics to the Scientologists, actually believe what they profess.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That's the most ridiculous, biased , and unsubstantiated statement
I've ever heard or read.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Prove me wrong.
As with ANY political organization, you advance by knowing what's going on. It is impossible to get to the top without knowing where the bodies are buried. Nobody ever became the head of a church, any church, by being the nicest guy in town.

Look at the prosecutions of church leaders over the past couple decades - people heading ministries that served hundreds of thousands, even millions, sent to prison for fraud. Historically, cardinals and popes have been notoriously corrupt - you think that somehow ended in YOUR lifetime? And so HOW, I ask, can you believe what you preach and at the same time violate every precept you preach?

The real surprise is not when they are exposed - it is that more are NOT exposed. Seriously, was ANYBODY surprised by Jim Bakker? We KNOW about Pat Robertson's criminal connections. Anybody who thinks Scientology is NOT a blatant con job is seriously deluded.

Show me a church, and I will show you a criminal, con man and liar at its head.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I don't have to say what you are - that's obvious. To say that you know a
persons personal beliefs is purely subjective. You say you want proof? One thing is certain: using the epistemology of an atheist, proof cannot come from subjective inquiry. You are being subjective.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. True, I can't know anyone's personal beliefs. All I can know is their
public actions. I challenge you to show me ANY highly ranked religious figure whose actions evidence a belief in god.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I will say this: there is no such thing as a 'perfect person' and
Edited on Thu Apr-01-10 02:19 PM by humblebum
knowing your mindset, you wouldn't qualify anyone. MLK comes to mind, Mother Theresa comes to mind, Ghandi, John Paul, and many others, also. Whatever you think of these people, I couldn't care less, but to say you know their beliefs is laughable.
The same can be said for any person in authority, in any movement or organization.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I can't say what's in their hearts, but you can, is that it?
Of those you name, only John Paul was actually a church leader - and which John Paul are you talking about? The liberal, who was murdered after 33 days? Or the ultra-conservative who was devoted to returning the church to the dark ages, who pretty much arranged for the nazi pope to take over after him?

Never mind. I know that faith is all about ignoring evidence.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Did I ever say that ? You said you can tell by their actions.
In my book, these people demonstrated in their actions what they wrote and spoke about. also I think you can deduce what John Paul I am speaking of. And so you are saying that any child who grew up during WW2 is a Nazi today? Is that correct. And if that had any bearing on anything then it would stand to reason that John Paul would have considered Benedict an enemy because of what the Nazis did to the Poles during the war. The greatest mass atrocities in all of history were carried out by atheists, but do I think all atheists subscribe to that type of behavior? No. Incidentally, faith is not about ignoring evidence. It's about considering a broader range of evidence or interpreting it differently than does an atheist, ie. positivism vs. ontological + teleological + empiricm + rationalism. The latter reveals much more than the former epistemology.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Ratzo and JPII are cut from the same cloth -
both ultra-conservative, anti-modernists who wish Vatican II had never happened. JPII was responsible for Ratzo's rise in the ranks. They BOTH were fully aware of the abuse - there is no way they could not be, as that was precisely what Ratzo's job was concerned with. They were obviously more concerned for the church than for the people, which does not exactly evidence a fear of god - another concept I have trouble with but which is a basic tenet of their faith.

And "The greatest mass atrocities in all of history were carried out by atheists" is SOO predictable - as well as patently untrue.

But enjoy your apologetics. Rest assured that the most powerful, richest organization in the world has a deep, abiding personal interest in you.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
13.  Denial in the face of evidence is not a good thing according to you.
"The greatest mass atrocities in all of history were carried out by atheists" is SOO predictable..." and true. So says the Guinness book and many other historians and sources.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. If I believed in Hell I would hope there was a special reservation there for the Pope
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. Head of state?
Hmmm. So, who's a citizen of his state? Is it by birth, vocation, or something else? Certainly Mr. Ratzinger was not born in the Vatican. Is citizenship of that state something that is bestowed or revoked at whim? Do they have organizing documents of government (e.g., a constitution) laying out not only the religious structure but also the civic structure of their nation?

And, while I place great deference on the right of a head of state to conduct the affairs of that state as he or she sees fit, how does aiding and abetting statutory rape fit under the rubric of affairs of state? I don't know of any political leader who would be immune from prosecution for criminal activities that occurred before he or she was elected or installed. I think this reasoning is specious.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I also wonder if the Hague court could get at him n/t
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