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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:37 PM
Original message
FL teachers protest. Advanced degrees won't matter, experience won't matter...
The Florida Senate bill says that 50% of their pay will only be based on the results of one test. The years of graduate education, the years spent teaching the children will not matter at all.

The teachers in Polk County protested this. This is a brave thing to do, because principals can make life uncomfortable for teachers who speak out.

Polk educators fight bill that ties student performance, teacher pay


Staff photo by COREY BECKMAN Dozens of Polk educators line Edgewood Drive outside state Rep. Kelly Stargel's office to protest the proposed legislation. Armed with signs and wearing red shirts the group chanted, "Don't hurt teachers."

Another picture:


Staff photo by COREY BECKMAN Dozens of Polk educators line Edgewood Drive outside state Rep. Kelly Stargel's office to protest the proposed legislation. Armed with signs and wearing red shirts the group chanted, "Don't hurt teachers."

Dozens of Polk educators lined Edgewood Drive outside state Rep. Kelly Stargel's office this morning to protest the proposed legislation. Armed with signs and wearing red shirts the group chanted, "Don't hurt teachers." Stargel was not at the office at the time of the protest.

..."Marianne Capoziello is the president of Polk's Education Association, which represents teachers in collective bargaining. She said the law basically devalues an educator's service and experience while putting all the emphasis on the success of a standardized test.

"This measure will tell teachers that their advance degrees don't matter, their years of experience don't matter, whether they choose to stay in the classroom doesn't matter, and a single test will determine whether they get pay or how they get paid," Capoziello said.


High school teacher Amanda McCallister said she worries Florida is already over-testing kids.

"This is a bill that emphasizes standardized testing much more heavily for our students when we hear from our parents that's a problem with our educational system. It's not a benefit," McCallister said.


This is a great comment from the article:

High school teacher Thomas Lentz said the proposed system simply isn't fair to those educators.

"We're going to take your kids, give them this one test and then you know it's kind of gambling almost. Maybe I've got a good group of kids this year. Maybe next year I don't get a good group of kids, so my pay will fluctuate," Lentz said. "How am I supposed to have a mortgage? How am I supposed to live a life? How am I supposed to have a budget like that?"


Indeed, Tom Lentz, how would a teacher plan anything?

I can just see the hoards of eager teachers with advanced degrees and experience flocking to Florida eagerly looking for jobs. I don't think the sarcasm tag is needed.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. As a rational self-interested person, I would do the following
Teach to the test, and only teach in an affluent school district where the test scores are already high.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. As a retired teacher, I care about the others. Not self-interested.
We have to care about others' plight.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. While I agree with you MADFlo, the writing is on the wall.
And while I think it would be a great idea to fight this as much as possible, you have to admit the writing is on the wall.

If this passes, and I suspect it will, that teachers will need to stop considering teaching anything more than a J. O. B. job. And the reason for this is clear - that the powers that be only consider it to be a job, no more or less than a clerk or burger flipper. At that point, any teacher who doesn't treat their job as a J.O.B. is a fool. After all the admin and higher are only treating teachers like replacable cogs.

You only owe as much loyalty to a job as the job owes you. So it the job only considers you to be a replacable cog then you need to treat it the same.

shame about the kids tho'.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. 10,000 people applying for the same spot with you?
and likely not being able to live that affluent area and, thus, having a longer, costlier commute.

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
29. Because, of course, you would insist the School Board hire you.
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mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. Amen, brother. I taught in a third rate college for ten years and I could
have been Aristotle and none of my students (well, maybe a few) would have scored on any standardized test anywhere near what students at first rate schools would score. It's not necessarily a reflection on their intelligence, which I believe was comparable to that of students at good schools, it's the result of a "nexus of mitigating factors and influences" including: they grew up is homes in which neither parent read for recreation nor valued education, they went to third rate public schools for primary and secondary education, and many of them grew up in seriously dysfunctional families (and, probably, their university instructor was the product of third rate schools).

I hope they pass this bill. I'm anticipating them being unable to hire teachers.
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Oh, they'll hire somebody
Other districts are hiring teachers from other countries at dirt cheap wages. I suspect this is where Fl is headed. Keep them for 4 years, then ship them back for a new batch.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
74. "It's not necessarily a reflection on their intelligence"
It's not, but it very well could be. Kids have different abilities to learn just as they have different abilities to do other things. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge this? It's obvious. Failure to acknowledge the differences does a disservice not only to the teachers but also to the kids because they may be expected to meet a standard they cannot meet. That's not fair to the kids. Seems to me one of the starting points in any effort to determine why kids are getting low test scores is to look at the innate abilities of the kids. Also at factors outside school that affect their abilities to learn.

The focus on test scores is not an honest effort to solve the problem.
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mudplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. No, I don't believe it's a reflection of thier intelligence. Yes, some kids
are smarter than others, but for me to accept an idea like "the kids from poor families aren't as smart as the kids from rich families" would require me to accept an idea like social Darwinism, which I reject vehemently.

Basically, I think I'm agreeing with most else of what you said.

George Bush graduated from Yale and Harvard, for Christ's sake! Do you actually think that cocksucker ever wrote a research paper? His matriculation at those institutions, alone, may have "rebent" the intelligence curve.
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djp2 Donating Member (276 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. I have a friend..
who also teachers in Florida.. a Sp. Ed. teacher. She is a Super strong Republican, and strong Christian..

In talking to her in the past I could not convince her that the Republicans did not have her best interests at heart (beginning to wonder about DEMS, too)..(PS -Where is that ONE strong Democratic leader standing up for us?)

Anyway, I now wonder if she is going to change her mind..I am forwarding all of Madflorian's posts to her.


I think it is time for a Teacher March on Washington for this summer while we are all off...some permanently......
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BlueJazz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hey..Seems fair to me. From now on our Representative's pay will be indexed..
...to the "Happiness Quotient" of Floridians.

You rule over a wealthy area ?...Good paycheck.
You rule over poor and unhappy Middle Class ?...Better save those Publix coupons and Walmart flyers !!

:) :)
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Tie their salary to the health of their constituents
Make their paycheck depend on how healthy their constituents are. Let's see how quickly they jump on health care.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Nah, give them the test. Publish the scores and base their salary
according to how well they do on it.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. I say index their pay to the score they receive on Constitution & Citizenship test.
Some of them might need to qualify for public assistance. :rofl:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
68. good idea. make them "accountable".
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. Just imagine having a masters and it does not matter.
only the one test matters.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks For Posting This madfloridian
Keep on keepin' on my friend. :)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Those teachers will be in trouble with their administrators.
I know because I was often on the front lines before I retired. Often told not to make waves. This angers me so much what they are doing to teachers.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
33. As one of the teachers that I sub for said, "Who is going to want to be a teacher?"
She is the rather conservative daughter of a career military family.

I explained the the reason for all of these repressive laws in education was to undermine public schools to the point that education would be privatized.

A few years ago, she would have treated that with absolute disdain and written me off as a crazy, tin-foil hat, far left winger.

This time, she looked like I gave her some food for thought...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. And that is a good question.
There will be no incentive to be a teacher.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:11 AM
Response to Reply #62
69. only rich people need incentives, apparently. bare survival is the only incentive the rest of us
are supposed to need.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
7. Their Votes, And Votes Of Teachers Across The Nation Damn Well Matter
It'll be a rude awakening.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
47. Dinger - think more long range
They won't need those votes AFTER they have destroyed the profession and the teachers unions.

When that day comes they won't even have to PRETEND to pander to the union members needs or wishes.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. We Won't Take This Lying Down
Think of that scene at the end of "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington," when he's pretty well had it, and finally the truth comes out. I still have faith. I haven't completely lost hope. I am also getting very active, trust me.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #55
70. couple things; i think you'd best not trust your union leadership too much, & look to make
Edited on Wed Mar-31-10 03:20 AM by Hannah Bell
alliances outside the profession as well.

the assault isn't just on teachers, but on all workers & the "lower orders" generally -- as you can see by looking around. social security, medicare, auto workers, welfare recipients, the poor of new orleans, etc. i think there may be some munipal & state defaults coming too.

things are not looking good, people in general need to wake up.

i talked to a recent college grad today, 8 months since she graduated & no job. she was celebrating having gotten three interview calls on the same day -- two were at retail outlets.

i worked retail before & during college, not after graduation. college was what was supposed to get me *out* of retail.

rambling...point is though, if it's just teachers, they can be isolated.
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. There is little respect left for Florida's teachers...
One of the reasons I got out. The other day I went back for fun and looked at the faculty where I last worked in 2002. There were only around 6-8 names that I knew. Everyone else had left.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. High turnover in our area as well.
Who wants to enter teaching under such conditions?
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. This was at a large, decent HS...
I can't imagine the morale and turnover in marginal schools/systems.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #36
71. seems like the florida unions are finally getting a clue -- resistance to arne's race
to the top from the unions is probably one of the reasons fla wasn't in the top 2.
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NotThisTime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
11. What prompted Florida in particular to do this?
Administration is at least half the problem in schools from what we've seen
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. Arne's bonus money requires more testing.
They were striving for more of the education bonus which would open the way to charters and merit pay testing.

This administration considers teachers the problem, thus the states are able to get away with it.
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NotThisTime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. There's more to it, yesterday my 6th grader's friend asked her what a Country was. Apparently she
freaking forgot. This is much more than a teaching problem, it's a district problem, State problem and ultimately an American problem....
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. This administration only faults teachers.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
54. I can't believe, I CANNOT believe, he is pitting schools and states against each other
thie is what happens when you put fucking corporatists and privatizers in this type of job.

Yes, his agenda is to privatize the public schools. Those of us who were wary of vouchers and charter schools were in the right, and it's being proven more fully every day.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. And pitting parents against teachers as well.
That's so tragic.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. It just bugs me SO MUCH
It makes me vein poppingly angry. I want to call the White House comment line and complain about him, but he sets me off so much that I'm going to have to write out a script and stick to it, or I'll sound nuts.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #54
72. the war of all against all is profitable. the corporatist goal is a world of isolated monads
in their fortified bunkers, unable to get past their fear of others to make common cause against their rulers and manipulators.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. This Jackass, State Senator John Thrasher, who won well-respected Jim King's (R)
seat in the State Senate shortly after King's death last year. He is the one who introduced the bill into the State Senate.



http://politicsfla.wordpress.com/2009/08/06/examining-d... /

Examining District 8 Candidates: John Thrasher

The story of John Thrashers career sounds more appropriate for a Hollywood movie about a back-room dealing, ethically challenged lobbyist/legislator, rather than the background of a potential replacement for the admired and respected late Jim King.

In his first term in the House, in 1992, Thrasher violated a state law prohibiting a legislator from lobbying a state board on behalf of a paying client. An Ethics Commission report found that Thrasher, a longtime general counsel for the Florida Medical Association, called the chairman of a Florida Board of Medicine subcommittee to lobby against a proposed rule and appeared in person a week later before to advocate for the FMA. The result was a public reprimand on the floor of the House in 1995 for his ethics violation. (snip)


Thrasher was fined $500, a slap on the wrists considering the maximum fine proscribed for the infraction is $10,000. In the course of the ethics committee investigation, it was revealed that one of his appointees to the board refused to recuse herself and actively argued in favor of the low fine. Following the legally proscribed two year wait, Thrasher stepped right back into his lobbyist role, becoming one of the most powerful lobbyists in the state of Florida.

Thrasher has quickly become the best financed candidate in the special election, amassing $268,645 in campaign contributions in the most recent reporting quarter. However, nearly 90% of his contributions have come from donors outside the district, 11% coming from outside Florida. Which begs a question: Whos interests does John Thrasher want to represent?

If history is any indication, the most likely answer is himself, his clients, and his donors. This leaves one very important group of people in the cold: the voters.

More at the link above.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
80. Proofreading exercise?
Which begs a question: Whos interests does John Thrasher want to represent?

Begging the question is the fallacy of assuming what one aims to prove. Also, the word "who's" is a contraction for "who is." Perhaps the above could be rewritten to say something like the following:

Which raises a question: Whose interests does John Thrasher want to represent?

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. K & R nt
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. Speaking as a parent: How about if 50% of the PARENT'S pay depended on the kid's test score?
Do you think that would wake up some of the jackasses who propose this stuff?
I'm a parent, and while teaching isn't my primary job, I'm sure that I've had as much or more influence over the condition of my kid's brain -- for better or worse -- than the teachers he has had.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
27. That's a great idea
... at least as logical as this bill.

:thumbsup:
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. And talk about teaching to the test.
If my paycheck depended on getting kids to pass a test, they'd damn well pass it. Take out your worksheets, class. Again. And again. And again.
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Stuart G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. Experience does matter..It took me 6 years to figure out how to teach .
in the inner city. And it was a very difficult 6 years of my "education"
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. Experience matters a lot.
The last few years I taught were at a very disadvantaged school in every way. I saw new teachers coming in and being tossed aside because they did not have the experience to handle the situations.



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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
18. k/r
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. Would these people ever decide advanced degrees don't matter for doctors?
The idiocy of this argument is unreal.
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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #20
78. At this rate, nothing would surprise me
The probably *would* decide that if they could think of an angle to sell it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
22. Video from FOX about the protest.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/polk/032909...

Interesting comment by the announcer....other protests "are being held throughout the state."

Well, I have searching for other protests. Must not be getting coverage.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
26. BAD bill
Teachers are not the enemy. Jesus.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
28. teaching to test is not educating children.
april 21st the public service unions are staging a protest in springfield illinois. i`ll be there and asking questions for the local afsme union paper. i`ll be interviewing as many teachers as i can....
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
30. Funny how in any criticism of public schools, no-one ever mentions ADMINISTRATORS.
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 11:31 AM by WinkyDink
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. And that's the problem in a nutshell. There is a belief out there that principals
Edited on Tue Mar-30-10 11:42 AM by tonysam
and other administrators are NEVER wrong, that if teachers are fired, they deserve it, because, after all, it is impossible to fire teachers, except, of course, "for cause," which principals can simply fabricate. Licensing boards and other school districts all believe it, too, which is why they force teachers to blackball themselves on applications by revealing WHY they were fired. California even asks fired teachers to provide hearing officers' decisions, which are almost ALWAYS rigged in favor of districts and which teachers are typically too poor to appeal.

It's not true, of course, at least for teachers, but it is damned near impossible to fire principals and other administrators because of the structure of public education.
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NotThisTime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I mention them every chance I get
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
56. True, but we need to watch it.
Focusing on school people as the problem is the problem. Shifting the focus is not the answer.
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Nikki Stone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. Teachers are the proletariat of education; they are the first blamed and first cut
That's why they have unions.

At least for now.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
64. +1. Damn straight.
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mainstreetonce Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
38. leveling the playing field
In the typical elementary school there are three first grades. Class A Class B Class C heterogeneously grouped by ability.

How does the school level the playing field so that teacher A can compete with B and C based on a test score?

It is impossible to group 75 children into three fairly even groups.

Teacher C does not get a raise because her scores are not as high as A or B. How do you factor that they were not teaching the same children with the same natural abilities, the same learning strengths or problems and the same family support or non support?

I don't believe it can be done.



Another point: On today's pay scale all teachers are paid according to their step on the scale regardless of subject matter taught.
If we go to salaries based on test scores what happens to the salaries of the teacher who teaches Phys ED or Music or Art?

Teachers need to be able to make some very difficult decision without worrying about the effects it will have on their salaries.
Who would tell the President of the Bd of Ed that his son need testing for a learning problem if their salary is on the line?

The students will suffer if such a plan is in place.



(glad to be a retired educataor)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yes, difficult conservations must be had.
Actually I remember some of the "staffings" held with guidance counselors, the principal, asst. principal, and papers submitted from medical personnel.

Even when the parents are influential and powerful, those things still need to be said. The decisions on special programs for the child still need to be held.

It is such things that mean a teacher must have a degree of protection from the wrath of parents, and the irritation of principals who don't want waves.

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mainstreetonce Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. protecting the children
I understand that there is concern among the general public that teacher salaries based on experience and education alone are not fair.
However, protecting teachers from unfair assessments is protecting the students. Tough love is part of the job and tough love is never going to get a good teacher a raise.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
65. There is also the risk of protecting children from abuse...
and the parents go livid when the call to DCF is made. It is Florida law it MUST be made. Only a couple of times did I have to do it. Once it was the parents who were beloved in the school. They harassed me, but eventually I found the mother waiting outside my class. She gave me a hug and said she had not realized how bad things were until they got counseling. Her husband apologized also.

Teachers need protections from principals who don't want teachers making waves with influential parents.

Once DCF told my principal it was a good call, she let up on me. But she was very angry with me....not with the parents who were abusing.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I'm a substitute teacher working in a "blue ribbon"
suburban district in California. There are students who would ace the standardized test with flying colors no matter who the teacher was. Other students couldn't pass it no matter who was trying to get the material across to them. Schools do, indeed, tend to group students by ability levels so that some teachers are blessed with the high achievers while other face considerable challenges with a struggling group. Making teacher pay contingent on student test scores is a recipe for disaster. Who will want to teach the lower achieving kids knowing their paychecks will be smaller?

I think these bonehead legislators who would support a stupid idea like this ought to try teaching a low achieving group for a month or two. They need a big helping of reality.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. As a former teacher of music I would have been happy to have my students take a music test.
But on the other hand my students got a grounding in music theory (physics) , and history (including cultural history) in addition to instrumental technique, leadership, interpretation, and performance.

The problem is not that music teachers are not tested, it is that there are standardized tests at all. Standards - yes. Standardized tests - no. Portfolios are a much more accurate reflection of student success.
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mainstreetonce Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
43. a comparison
If physicians were paid according to how many of their patients improved, would the top of the med school class go into Oncology or Plastic Surgery?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. heh heh
Good point.

Welcome to DU, BTW
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. Teachers, in the top 3 important jobs of society, shit upon again.
That's right educators, suck it. Oh, and by the way, we're closing schools so you'll now have 75 kids in each classroom. Hope you can reach them all, considering your career may depend on it.

Buh bye.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. That is just about the size of it.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. Well, who better to teach to the test
than teachers who did well on a test?

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
52. Eliminating gov't role in education altogether
Louisiana is considering doing the same thing as FL. We can see this is one big stupid idea...the teachers see it is stupid....I suspect the legislators see it as stupid too, so why? If teachers were allowed to keep their basic salaries, as they are computed now, with years experience and degrees being the basis, but offered a BONUS based on improving test scores of their districts, then I think the teachers would jump on that idea. I say district because you can see that at one high-school for example, how will the pay of the special-ed teacher be computed as compared to an English teacher or math teacher? (So many things to consider.) But if students' test scores improved each year, then the special-ed teacher's students' scores could be averaged in with other teachers' students' scores in the district.

So why are they doing this at all? Republican legislators are jumping on this idea to weaken public education to the point where the public will clamor for private, charter schools. When operated correctly, and given the resources that now are going to private & charter schools, public schools could still be considered the great equalizer. Our model should be that every public school in this country encourages innovation in teaching methods, pays absolutely Professional Salaries so that ppl would be begging to be teachers, provides the specialized teaching that is required for "slower" students and for "advanced" students, and is overseen by educational personnel not elected officials who have no experience in education. This would take a huge amount of resources, and this country has never been interested enough to vote for the money it would take to make public education absolutely first-rate.

With teachers demoralized due to idiotic ideas like this one, the quality of education in FL & LA public schools will suffer. When public education is finally at a low-point, education will be totally privatized, with subsidies paid to the private schools for the poorer students. Conservatives do not believe the gov't should be in the "education bidness," and have advocated eliminating the Dept of Education altogether. This also destroys the teachers' unions, which usually don't recruit from private schools. Education will be a for-profit enterprise in this country, with the more wealthy being able to afford the better education. With much better educations, who will end up being on the top in this country? It's a form of class warfare.

Eliminating public education is the goal here. You have to admit there are fewer and fewer public schools these days, and more & more private & charter schools....both of which get public-education monies.
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AnnInLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. P.S. If you believe health-care
should NOT be for-profit, and insurance companies should be eliminated, think of education in the same manner. Education should not be privatized, and should not be for-profit. But that is the trajectory on which public education is headed. When it finally happens, and most schools are private, and for-profit, then the wealthy elites will control who learns what, and who learns more. Think about it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. I think you are right.
Good points.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #52
73. of course that's the goal. another profit center for corps & the rich, since they have too much
money & not enough places to "grow" it.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
57. Privatizing schools is a neocon priority.
There is money to be made. Trillions. The amount of money they look to gain from eliminating public schools rivals the military industrial complex.

They are looking at so much money that they take the time and invest in the long run. They sow seeds of discontent. They use their wholly owned media sources to spread lies. They play on people's prejudices and ignorance. Starting with bill bennet, this has been coming. They know that Democrats would never let them do this with a sitting republican president, so they are striking now. This is the situation they have put in place.

This is about money -not ideology.
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theaocp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
63. Here's what everyone's missing
...the incentives. As a teacher myself in the decidedly-unprivileged area of Hamtramck, MI, we are under pressure for test scores all the time. Our last PD day (last Friday), was about them ... again. The threat is certainly not subtle; as a charter, they have the power to keep or remove us because we are either succeeding or we are not. Therefore, how much pressure do we have to do well on the MEAP (Michigan test)? That's right ... a lot.

So, all teachers under this similar model have one universal question: risk your entire career on the results of the test, or MASSAGE the test? I've seen it in action with a Detroit teacher I was observing as a pre-student teacher doing field experience. He openly told me he was helping the students take the state test so he could continue to have a job.

Morally wrong? You betcha.

Understandable? How could you not understand?

Everyone has their price. The incentives for merit pay, let alone keeping one's job indicate how low your price is. That's reality, people. My price is pretty high, so I prepare my students. Hopefully, they'll internalize what I teach so as to allow me more time to do so next year.

Cheers, folks. I'm putting off grading homework so I can do my grad work ... also so I can continue to do my job. :)
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
66. K & R.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
67. (fla.)UTUBE: FundEducationNow.org - "SB6 - A Devious Plan"

YouTube - FundEducationNow.org - "SB6 - A Devious Plan"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKFZYlVDGw&feature=play...

FundEducationNow.org - "SB6 - A Devious Plan"
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 04:32 AM
Response to Original message
75. My third year old grandchild is feeling the pressure and
stress of the test. This is so wrong.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
76. It seems the first assumption
is the kids aren't performing to their abilities because the teachers aren't doing their jobs.

Why not assume the kids are performing to their abilities and the teachers are doing their jobs?

Someone has to speak the truth, because it's not right that legislators/administrators can get away with making that false claim. They've been poisoning peoples' minds for years with it. The blanket blaming of teachers is wrong. Someone needs to challenge them on it. How about our President? What has the Democratic Party come to that it quietly let's this shit happen?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
79. Too bad we can't demand the same kind of accountability from our bankers and Wall Streeters...
...not to mention other corporate leaders, like those who oversaw the demise of the American auto industry.

If we could, there'd be no taxpayer bailouts...they'd be paying us!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
81. Education is a profession in which advanced degrees don't matter.
Ain't it amazing?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
82. Good for the teachers, that takes courage. madfloridian, have you seen
this from Center for American Progress? My apologies to Third Way supporters, but when I read this I thought, WTF. The bias is
so damn obvious...chronically ineffective teachers??

No other factors, like poverty, could play a role in the outcomes for these children. I guess all other variables will be excluded
from the equation.


*The importance of effective teaching in the nations public schools is receiving unprecedented attention. As President Barack Obama so aptly stated in his remarks to the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce last year, From the moment students enter a school, the most important factor in their success is not the color of their skin or the income of their parents, its the person standing at the front of the classroom. The president expresses what a great deal of research has documentedthat teachers have a tremendous impact on student achievement and that teachers vary greatly in their effectiveness.

Experts argue that promoting better teaching requires comprehensive, aligned, and integrated human capital systems for recruiting, training, evaluating, and compensating teachers. These systems must also be aligned with a districts strategic goals. The Center for American Progress has focused in prior publications on many of these key components of human capital systems. Yet one critical piece of the system has not received as much attentionthe dismissal of chronically ineffective teachers.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/03/teacher_...
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. That is John Podesta's think tank. Look at the staff and fellows
http://www.americanprogress.org/aboutus/staff

Actually the DLC and PPI have pushed for charters and pushed to end public education as we know it.

It has been a big part of their platform. CAP usually follows their thoughts.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-01-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. UGH! The dishonesty is astonishing, the sad joke will be paid by the children too.
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n.michigan Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. I see-teachers..and racism/the economy- no- its the POLITICIANS FAULT
My post again, since it is the politicians (Obama and Duncan- Race to the End) who we need to hold accountable...

Teachers as foolish sheep. Dupes. Easy marks...like the children-dump on them, steal from them. The education pot is huge. Where else is there real money left to target? Anyway, who works harder than a teacher?

The POLITICIANS ARE RESPONSIBLE for this countries condition. It is they who have created the circumstances of our downfall- in education, in our economy, in our infrastructure, our health care, our seniors insecurity.

They are distracting us from the evils they perpetrate. Corrupt politicians deregulated for the corporations. Laws were installed to facilitate the destruction of consumer protections and the environment. Many immunities protect the "government" from accountability. Wall street looted this country with complicit bankers and corporations. Banks were bailed out and not asked for accountability. We hold illegal wars and misplace billions of dollars and to no account.

Now, health care reform- a new mandated consumer market given to a corrupt corporate health sector, yet no requirements to cap the greed/profit and protect our people. No medical care for all.

Teachers, its a joke-on you. Teachers need to hit the streets and stop this take down of public education- for their own respect. Union leadership is the gateway for the sheep.

**GO FLORIDA TEACHERS- Where is the National Education Association ? Where is the American Federation of Teachers? They need to call a strike on this administration for what they are trying to do to our profession and to union members and to the education of our children.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-02-10 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Watching this unfold has been disturbing, no doubt about it.
Democracy Now had more about it this morning:

Mass Closures of Public Schools, Promotion of Charters Raise Fears of Privatized Detroit Education System
Detroit plans to close more than a quarter of its public schools at a time when private foundations are pledging hundreds of millions of dollars to reshape the Detroit public school system. The foundations are pushing for mayoral control of the school and the opening of dozens of new schools including charter schools. The plan is seen by critics as a move to privatize the citys school system.

in full here: http://www.democracynow.org/2010/4/2/mass_closures_of_d...


And welcome to DU, n.michigan! :hi:
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