Why I am sad about the HCR bill.

[applejuice]

I am sad because I had hoped for so much more.

From what I can see:

-People are still not going to be able to afford healthcare and the bill really isn't addressing this.

-It seems that the bill actually was built around the needs of the insurance companies and their profits rather than the american people. (When did it become the government's job to look after big corporations?)

I am a US citizen, but I live in a country with National Health Care that is free at point of service. This is one of the original tenants of the plan because they wanted everyone to use it and knew that if it WASN'T free at point of service the poorest would not benefit.

I know that this whole HCR thing was an uphill battle, and people said single payer or Medicare/Medicaid for all was never going to happen - but people also said a black man would NEVER be elected president. I truly believe that if there had been on the ground organisation so much more could have been achieved.

So, yes, I am feeling down about this. I don't know if it is because I live in the wider world where Nationized Healthcare is the NORM, but the whole situation is depressing me.

On a side note there was some Republican talking mouth on the BBC news this morning who made americans look like total idiots. He countered every point the news anchor made with "But that's not how Amerikuns like to do things, we pride ourselves on individuality." Made it sound like the american people would rather let their fellow americans DIE than give up their "individuality". No wonder the world thinks we're a-holes.

Yeah, I'm down.

[derby378]

1. Someone's already unrec'ing this...

Which is a shame. This DUer has every right to these feelings of disappointment.

[applejuice]

8. Thank you, I know that how I feel might not be popular...

and I guess I am not AGAINST the HCR, but I really do feel sad and disapointed. I can't change that. I had really hoped for so much more.

I live in a country with NHC and I am so grateful for it. My family has struggled with the health care system in the US for years. My brother had childhood leukemia and I could tell you nightmares about the insurance companies and what my parents went through with them. My sister has had no insurance had no insurance for a long time. The amount it would cost my family (myself, my husband and my three kids) to get insurance in the US is one of the reasons I sadly can't see myself moving back anytime soon. :(

So yeah, I'm down.

[LynneSin]

15. Every DUer has the right to recommend or unrecommend a thread too

:grr:

[Oregone]

31. Can we primary them for not voting how we want?!?

Because we know that if they aren't voting with us for whatever reason, they are reccing with the Freepers!

[LynneSin]

34. The DUers?

:hide:

Yes Damnit - go for it!

:crazy:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

39. It's that damn Unrec Patrol again!

They live!

[liberal N proud]

2. So now, start the fight for so much more

This is a start, if the bill had been scrapped, the fight would be much worse.

So Fight On!

[eridani]

22. Hey, we're trying. But the whole point of the bill was to prevent further changes

What is plan B when all the proposed amendments get dumped in the trash pile on the grounds that we already DID health care?

[Oregone]

27. Who knows...but the entire thing almost has to be dismantled for egalitarian reform

Thats sort of a sad thing to think about. I mean, it legislates inequality in health care (which will correlate to socioeconomic status) with its multiple tiered plans in the exchange.

[Fridays Child]

25. I agree. This is where we start, not where we finish.

This is a big, old steel-toed boot in the door. Now, we pry that door open. It will require many, many more gallons of blood, sweat, and tears, before this work is done and we truly have a national health insurance service that's on a par with Great Britain's, for example.

[Oregone]

32. Where is the finish?

[Fridays Child]

44. Did you read my post?

[Oregone]

46. Well, it doesn't make sense

How can a start that rests upon a capitalistic idealogy, in which the ills and expenses of the market are legislated as permissible to a high degree, suddenly morph into a socialistic system? Doesn't the end goal you propose directly contradict the starting steps that have just been taken? For the love of God, they just legislated multi-tiered plans in which level of actual care recieved will correlate directly to one's socioeconomic status (that being, the ability to pay the portion of the low actuarial plans, or afford a higher tier with lower copays/deductibles).

[Blue_Tires]

43. +1

[ProSense]

3. "Republican talking mouth on the BBC news this morning who made americans look like total idiots."

Thanks for your concern.

[applejuice]

16. I AM an american, thanks.

[Oregone]

29. Expats get some rough treatment around here at times

Welcome to DU. Hope you can enjoy your stay.

But if you start lookin funny or talking with an accent, a crew here might try an smoke ya out. Especially if you speak French

[evrstrong]

4. I was sad to see the way Dennis was strong armed...

we know it could have been so much better...

Liberals are settling for so much less these days. To critisize anything Obama does is to be a traitor...But Obama himself spoke of single payer on the campaign trail! Funny how things are so much rosier on the campaign trail.

[applejuice]

19. Yes, I had a lot of hope in the past for Kuccinich and Dean.

[LynneSin]

35. After watching Dennis Kucinich now for 8+ years - he does not seem like someone who can be strongarm

And it's sad to see DUers making him out to be some sort of Wuss.

[Gman2]

5. Noone likes a whiney winner TODAY

[evrstrong]

11. not to say there aren't improvements, but

why do we always have to settle for so much less?

This is America, man! The rest of the world is way ahead of us.

[Oregone]

23. Then mandate happiness.

Excise tax excessive "cadillac" joy

[zipplewrath]

6. Me too

For all you said and more. This now establishes the purchase of health care as an obligation, and the receipt of health care as an option. It ensconces health insurance companies at the center of the system, setting them up as the conduit to health care. It establishes the role of government as the primary "influence" on insurance companies to try to regulate them into providing the health care we need.

[applejuice]

20. Yes, I totally agree...

Giving the insurance companies so much power is one of the main depressing things about this IMHO.

[rfranklin]

7. The uberwealthy push the "individuality" meme because...

it works with the divide and conquer strategy that they have been using to prevent other Americans from organizing (i.e. unions) and wresting power from them. Just read the post yesterday about how the billionaire Koch brothers have been financing all the righwing "think tanks" and astroturf groups that promote their interests--which are always diametrically opposed to those of the other 99 percent of the American population.

[havocmom]

13. Yep. Big tactic in the class war, and too many fall for it

[NJmaverick]

9. I cried that my feet hurt until I met a man with no feet

learn from the wisdom of that statement

[LynneSin]

40. +++++1

:D

[Raineyb]

54. You're a moron. How about trying to say something useful or better yet

STFU.

[Uben]

10. Constructing healthcare.....

...there has to be a foundation to build on, and this is our foundation. Now we can begin the framework to a better system. Yes, it's not near adequate, but it IS a start. And, there are a lot of Americans that can rest a little easier today because of what transpired last evening. Thousands that would have died will now have a better chance of survival. You may (and I emphasize the word may)not care about them....I do.

I know that sounds so self-righteous, but I believe it to be true. We took a big first step last night....so give us a little credit for taking initiative. This was a big gamble for Obama and the democrats, but doing nothing was not an alternative. The republicans tried that approach, and look where they're at.

[Oregone]

18. What type of foundation is it? That determines in what direction you build

What is the idealogical road map this foundation is built upon? Was it built on socialistic egalitarian tenants? Was it built on the preservation of capitalism for the benefit of the most (or even the few)? Was it built on some sort of corporatist ideology to preserve shareholders stakes? Or is it more of a "post-ideology" reform focused more on making the most people happy, but not really laying out a sound "end" to the "start".

When you make claims about a "foundation" or "first steps" or a "start", it may be important to make some sort of argument of how that will lead into a beneficial direction and progress in the interests of the people.

Anyone can "start". Bush made one hell of a start in the middle east, eh? The underlying philosophy behind that was a big neo-con fantasy piece of shit.

Where is this start and what direction is it in?

[Uben]

37. Are you serious?

This bill addresses some of the worst aspects of the insurance industry abuses. It can now be amended to address even more of them without having to take the monumental step that we witnessed last evening!
Can't see that? Open your eyes! As someone who is watching his savings drained by insurance premiums because of a pre-existing condition (wife's cancer), I know first hand what it's like to be abused by the insurance industry. There is no where to turn. You can't get insurance if you drop your current coverage, and the insurance company keeps raising premiums every year. My costs have tripled in a few short years to the point I am paying in excess of $18K/yr just in premiums for a catastrophic policy.
For a blue collar guy who is in that 55-60 yr old range, the costs are mind boggling! I have done my part and have acquiesced to paying the high premiums so if something happened, I would not be a burden on the American taxpayer. But at what costs? I have raided the money I had set back for my kid's college, we haven't taken a vacation in ten years, and we live as frugal as we can.

According to the charts, my coverage should be cheaper now. The ins co will not be able to raise my rates exponentially like before. They can't deny my wife the care she needs if the cancer reappears by claiming a lifetime cap. She hasn't even been to a doctor in four years, yet the premiums continue to rise every year. That, my friend is a foundation to build on!

[Oregone]

42. I'm dead serious. What is the fundamental philosophical & idealogical origins that drove this bill

And where do such origins, historically speaking, normally drive further progress to?

This isn't an anecdotal question. This is a big picture question. Its something that people should have been asking from the get go, instead of beating the dead horse subject about how shitty the status quo is. We all understand that already. Its never been in doubt

[Uben]

48. I'm sorry, but.....

..if you don't understand, I'm afraid I can't help you. A look into medicare and social security might be a good place to start. Those were both historical precedents you can use to answer your own questions. Perfect? Hell no. Better? Hell yeah! I don't see this as socialized medicine, I see it as CIVILIZED medicine. No one should go broke because they get sick. We all agree on this. The direction the status quo was taking us was quickly leading to a cliff!
Of course, the ideal solution is single-payer, something we must achieve at some point to keep up with the civilized nations of this world. This is definitely a step towards that end. Everyone has their own concepts what should or should not be done.

First and foremost, cost controls had to be reigned in. You know this because I have seen you respond to some of my other posts. I am going bankrupt paying premiums in excess of $18K/yr because my wife was unfortunate enough to have gotten cancer, and survived! Even though there have been no signs of the cancer returning in over seven years, the premiums continue to rise every chance they get to raise them! We are relegated to keeping our current catastrophic policy because if dropped, no insurance company would have picked us up. That has now been changed! And, hopefully an exchange will bring those costs down via competition in the market. We haven't even been to a doctor in years, except for my colonoscopy, which was conveniently $5K, the amount of my deductible.

So, the fundamental and ideological origins that drove this bill were anchored on the same principals as SSI and medicare. The burden is to be spread amongst the collective to ease the burdens on the individuals who are unfortunate enough to experience tragedy and sickness beyond the norm.

You may or may not agree. That's how I see it.

[Oregone]

50. "A look into medicare and social security might be a good place to start"

No. Those are socialized services with socialism being the driving economic and political ideology that shaped the development in the interests of the people.

We are dealing with a private industry, for-profit, non-egalitarian reform here. What ideology provided the framework for such, and what is its "end goal"? Does it have one? Was it built on any foundation to start with?

You see where Im going?

Correct me if I am wrong...but is the idealogical theme of this reform essentially: "free enterprise and the private market is the best producer & distributor of goods for a society, so its inefficiencies, expenses, and propensity to disproportionally distribute wealth to uninvolved shareholders is therefore excusable. That aside, it fails to distribute such goods to all the people to some arbitrary ethical standard, so technocratic adjustments will further perfect it"?

[Oregone]

12. "free at point of service"

Some people don't understand how important this is. Honestly, Im not sure I would of gotten it until Ive experienced it first hand.

[applejuice]

17. Yes, I agree. As I said, maybe it is because I live in the wider world now

where this is the norm that I appreicate it's importance so much. I am american and grew up in the US but have now spent much of my adulthood overseas. I feel like I see a lot of things much clearer than I used to.

[jtrockville]

14. You asked when it became gov't job to look after corporations?

It probably happened long ago, but now corporations are people too!
Better to let a bodied person die than a corporate person, eh?

[applejuice]

36. "corporations are people too"

This too makes me completely sad. Almost as sad as the idea that corporations will somehow regulate themselves and it will all work out in favor of the american people.

[jtrockville]

41. Straight through the looking glass.

I do hope this misguided ruling that gives corporations the same rights as people is somehow overturned. Murray Hill Inc. For Congress (http://murrayhillincforcongress.com/ ) is doing an excellent job of exposing the lunacy of this logic. They're local (to me) and are running in the congressional district in which I live. Check out their media coverage link and listen to some of their interviews. It's the only thing that gives me hope on this front.

[northoftheborder]

21. Reply to applejuice

You are exactly right. I put a similar post up last night, just as the vote was breaking to a close, and it got lost in the celebration. I recommended your post, but was immediately voted down. I am afraid when the general public sees the true picture of what was not passed, the Democrats will have a backlash. I am NOT a "freeper" nor a Repub nor a Libertarian. But I am deeply disappointed that Obama and the Congress did not at least start out with asking for more. I do not see how costs are going to be contained; they had to take out one of those cost controls put in the Rec. bill, because it did not meet the Rec. rules it was dropped. They could not add anything that would lead to a Republican filabuster in the Senate. We have to keep fighting, but if the Senate Democrats lose more members this fall it will be impossible to improve anything.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TZ]

24. As someone with a pre-existing condition

I'm happy this morning. Anyone who says doing nothing is better than this bill is an idiot. If your life is on the line as mine is, you aren't going to dwell on what isn't there.

[zipplewrath]

28. I hope it works for you

The details may surprise you.

[walldude]

30. Yeah well I have a family full of pre's as well

and I have seen, and even the people who support the bill will admit, that our coverage is going to be expensive. Really expensive until 2014 and you better hope that they remove some of these "risk factors" from the bill or the insurance companies will have carte blanche to charge you whatever the hell they want. This bill does not help people with pre-existing conditions it forces them to buy insurance at a price set according to your "risk factors". Good luck to all of us.

[TZ]

52. It keeps my Insurance company from dumping me

or hiking up my rates. It forces them to treat me like everyone else they cover. For me, thats extremely helpful. I can afford my copays and deductibles. I couldn't afford to have to pay for everything out of pocket. If I lose my job and lose COBRA, it means I can get group insurance again when I get a new job and THEY HAVE TO COVER ME.
I also don't have to worry about running into a lifetime cap on expenses. Considering I cost them about 2,500-3000 a month in medicine and doctors bills, that WAS a real worry. Not anymore.:)

[Raineyb]

56. Not for FOUR YEARS. In the meantime you're headed for the high-risk ghetto

Walldude is absolutely correct.

[walldude]

59. It does keep them from dumping you but there is language

in the bill right now that allows them to keep your rates really high according to your risk factor. Don't be fooled, this in not going to be cheap for sick people...

[applejuice]

33. I never said that nothing is better than this bill. I just think that the

dems laid down and gave in to big coprations and the right way to easily. I think they should have had some balls and tried for more from the start.

I also think we SHOULD seriously question how much power this bill is actually giving to the insurance companies.

My brother is a childhood leukemia survivor by the way. I do not discount the pre-existing condition stuff, but there are big issues with even this. The way the bill is set up now it may benefit insurance companies to just pay a fine rather than fork over coverage. You can bet your britches insurance companies will do this if it is financially better for them.

[ScreamingMeemie]

47. It saddens me, as one who's "life is also on the line" that so many

think this is an answer to the prayers of us preexisters. I still will not be able to afford the coverage. I will still be shut out from the treatments I need. I will still be deductibled to a cost that will take away everything my husband and I worked so hard for.

[TZ]

53. For some of us IT IS.

I'm sorry its not for you, but to deny the fact that many of us ARE helped is not realistic. Read what I posted above.
Do I wish it would cover everyone, of course I do. But please stop telling me, that its not going to help many of us, because thats not true.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. I didn't tell you anything.

I said I feel sad. All of a sudden I feel like I am in a horrible version of "The Lottery"

But there are two stories here TZ. Yours and mine. To deny that fact that many are not going to get health care, in the face of all that I thought "we" wanted, is obtuse. Your story is great, mine is not. Yay Dems...you've done...what?

Of course I am selfish, I just want to live so that my son is not orphaned. But enough about you and I. I also hurt for the many thousands who will not be provided health care in the early stages of HIV.

[LynneSin]

38. [phone]+infinity

Not only does is my nephew under 27 working minimum wage jobs but he also has a pre-existing condition that could be used against him. It's a good future for him.

But I guess for some DUers they would rather wait until we have the perfect congress that can pass the perfect bill. We would all be dead of old ages if we wait for that to happen

[Locrian]

26. Kicked and Rec

Lets see how the health care industry stock does. That will be the true test of who won.

[GoCubsGo]

45. That's not what you should be sad about.

The real sad thing about all of this is that it took nearly A CENTURY to get to this point. And, on top of that, it's sad that 212 of our so-called "representatives" were either more concerned about getting re-elected, or more concerned about defeating President Obama than they are about the well-being of the people they were elected to represent. THAT is the real tragedy here, not that the bill is underwhelming.

[applejuice]

51. You are right, I am sad about that too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Just having coverage for pre-existing illnesses makes this bill worth it...it can

always be changed, improved, added to, taken from, tweaked....and it's a start. National Health Care is what we need to strive for/fight for and some day it could happen. I hope it does. Our health care system sucks and it's beyond embarrassing that the once "greatest Nation" on earth can't make it happen. I am so sick of hearing from repukes that "WE have the greatest Health Care on earth!" BULL. People know better. I know when I pay my EXORBITANT private BC/BS premiums every month that that statement is just a flat-out lie.

[TheKentuckian]

55. Screaming "perfect" is a way to to ignore severe observable flaws

Forget public programs and socialized medicine for a moment and explain the sense and advantage to the citizen to maintain state pools and primary oversight.

Explain how there is any actual intent to regulate when an anti-trust exemption is left firmly in place.

Elaborate on how it makes sense to perpetuate an employer based system that allows employers to select coverage plans that the employee is then required by law to purchase? Public transportation is a strain on the commons, why don't we mandate personal transportation but have your work decide what brand and model is best for you while you face the fines and must pay for the Lumina or Corvette of your boss's choice?

Tell me all about how beneficial it is to the people at large to leave all these profit centers intact along with the very structures that lead us to the horrible position we are in today.

We could, should, and must do better. We have nearly as far to go as we did when FDR and Truman started the dialog, don't get cocky yet.