"Did you hear that, Dennis?" should have been "Did you hear that, Joe?"

[t0dd]

President Obama can call out a stalwart progressive like Congressman Kucinich during a rally near his district, but when it came to the biggest champion of the health insurance industry in the Senate, Joe Lieberman, he was absolutely silent.

He never once pressured a single conservative Democrat to support a bill that would have actually benefited ordinary people more than the insurance industry. He never once intervened in Joe Lieberman's quest to kill every iteration of the public option. Even when there were 59 votes for a small Medicare buy-in, the White House told Harry Reid to give Joe what he wants and ordered it be scrapped from the final bill.

Obama never wanted a public option. That's why he traded it away last summer. The only thing he fought for was to uphold his deals with the for-profit hospital lobby and pharmaceutical industry by remaining numb to those elements of reform that would have directly impacted those deals. Then he makes the bold claim that he never campaigned on a public option, hoping no one will notice his deceit. Why are we so quick to forget that?

The public option would have been far more than a "sliver" of reform, but I guess since we are so close to "victory", we can shrug off its exclusion. But you just remember what really killed it. Just like direct Medicare drug price negotiation and drug re-importation.

But I guess this is the part where we pretend none of this happened. This is the part where us holdouts fall in line, to dawn our sheep clothing and join the rest of the flock.

[WCGreen]

1. Then don't vote for him next time...

[reggie the dog]

11. that is exactly what I plan on doing

I think I will vote Green, like I usually do in France too.

[NWHarkness]

12. So go post at Green Underground n/t

[frylock]

20. love it or leave it..

my country, right or wrong.

[reggie the dog]

26. I know you are not serious, but I have already left

I left the USA and have no regrets. I live much better here in France than I ever did or could in the USA.

[frylock]

33. i'll likely be voting green myself..

and as far as posting on the green underground goes, i do it every day!:smoke:

[reggie the dog]

34. I got the brown underground going on

brown north african hash....

[Dr.Phool]

70. DU rules say that you have to share.

[reggie the dog]

73. here, cough cough

have a virtual toke

[Dr.Phool]

74. Thanks, bro.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beardown]

48. Serious question.

When you say "we" do you mean yourself and some posters on DU or the current state of the democratic party or DU in general?

During the health care debate here I've noticed a very numerous cadre of posters attacking liberal ideas and congressmen. Many of the posters have ventured into free republic type territory with the venom and personal nature of the attacks.

Meanwhile, the democratic party appears to many of us to be ideologically similar to the repub party of the 70's era and only appears 'liberal' when compared to the current repub party which had gone hook, line, and sinker into batshit crazy radical territory.

In particular, the current version of the health care bill is very similar to repub proposals of several years ago (I don't have the exact time frame) while you'd think that a health care reform bill designed along liberal guidelines would at the very least include a single payer or public option.

[hulka38]

53. It's the misleading posts that drove me up a wall.

Attack style posts and sarcasm doesn't bother me. One particularly vocal and prolific poster whom we all know intentionally mischaracterized Howard Dean's points multiple times on the HCR matter in order to deceive DUers into thinking Dean was happy with the current bill. This nonsensical poster intentionally left out Dean's quotes that would clearly counter the claim being made by this poster. In my mind, that's much worse than throwing out the occasional expletive or sarcastic remark in the heat of debate. That's outright deception targeting fellow Democrats. A liberal would not do this. I'll tell you this, I'm really down on my party right now but I'm not down on liberals. Far from it. We're going to tear the DLC down and Democrats will start acting like Democrats again.

[Dr.Phool]

71. Their intent is to hijack the thread.

In over seven years here, I had never used the ignore feature. In the last couple of months, I've put about a dozen of the most obnoxious ones on it. They don't add anything to the discussion, but disruption and disinformation. I still see a couple of them, just for the humorous stupidity, but, they're getting to be a boor lately too.

[Mithreal]

80. It's as if they are phoning it in, the disinformation has become so easily refuted

[Mithreal]

79. +1

[SlingBlade]

59. He's not speaking for me so it must be that little voice inside

his ear that sounds remarkably like Rahm Emmanuel

[reggie the dog]

65. yes, I have 2 nationalities

[Chulanowa]

66. Posting on the internet doesn't change people's politics

So, no offense, but don't pretend you're "fighting the good fight" or something. You'll be accomplishing nothing but preaching to the choir, and annoying everyone outside with your dinging.

We live in a representative democracy. Go kick some representative ass.

[alteredstate]

69. My sentiments, precisely!

:)

[Lorien]

28. Do you really think that Obama is "leading" as a Democrat?

some of us vote based on issues, not false advertising or branding.

[Mithreal]

40. He set himself up in the middle. Makes it more dignified hurling softballs at both sides.

Saved the hardballs for Progressives, of course. Can't have any of that liberal nonsense tarnishing his image.

[pundaint]

49. He set himself up in the middle eh? Which right-wing positions did he surrender?

Don't just look at the packaging, read the ingredients - we have a Republican president. He keeps reusing that Democratic Packaging but it's all Republican underneath. How do you like the Recovery? Every's problem solved and bonuses restored? How can that be - the Dow is back up! Now who can we get to regulate and monitor the banks? Republican is as republican does. Of course there's his leadership on war...

[Mithreal]

52. It's a false middle, for sure.

That was very bad of me to express my thoughts unclearly, not the first time either.

[SlingBlade]

58. Who the fuck are you to tell anyone where they can post ?

ASSHOLE !

[Tunkamerica]

54. you do realize that statement is against the rules of the board

this is democratic underground, not international progressive underground. If Obama is the Democratic nominee in 2012 you can't actively work against his election on this board.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

2. Joe has already been primaried out.

The people that elected Joe Liberman, ultimately, are not ones who support this plan. They were, largely, Republicans and a few Lieberman-loyal Democrats (which will always happen with incumbents - I'm sure he's made a lot of friends through constituent services). So, that's a rather fundamental flaw in your commentary.

[Nikki Stone1]

46. Primaried out?

You mean he won't run?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

75. No, I mean he's not a Democrat.

Remember - Ned Lamont?

[mzmolly]

3. Joe voted

for the bill.

[laughingliberal]

13. Yes, I think the point was we should have heard, "You hear that, Joe?"

back when he was killing the public option. Of course, that would require the President to have been in favor of the public option.

[mzmolly]

15. I thought Obama killed

the public option. :sarcasm:

[G_j]

21. yep

:banghead:

[Raineyb]

22. After turning it into an even weaker stream of piss. But that gets a pass right?

I guess passing something is more important than passing something good.

[mzmolly]

31. We need to make up our minds. Lieberman killed the PO or Obama did.

Passing something good is better than holding out for perfection, while another 45 thousand die annually, yes. I'm glad Dennis Kucinich realized this as well.

[Toasterlad]

35. It Was a (Political) Suicide Pact.

Both of them are dead to me.

[mzmolly]

38. Ah, so they planned it together?

Interesting. :tinfoilhat:

[Toasterlad]

42. Yeah, Who Would Ever Believe Two Sleazy Politicians Brokered a Deal Behind Closed Doors?

What unthinkable lunacy will I dream up next?

[SlingBlade]

60. K & R That !

[Raineyb]

76. Obama didn't fight for it and LIEberman actively worked to have it removed.

I don't see it as an either or position. They BOTH fucked us over. And you never read anything by me that put the death of the public option at the feet of any one person so your comment is a non-sequitur to begin with.

[izzybeans]

4. Lieberman isn't adult enough to do what Dennis did.

[Pirate Smile]

5. Obama was doing his intro and mentioning who was there - when he was talking about Dennis (who he

called a champion for the poor and middle class)someone in the crowd yelled "vote yes". That was when he said "Did you hear that, Dennis?" It wasn't random. The guy in the crowd yelled it out regarding Dennis.

[laughingliberal]

14. I think it would have worked just as well to ask Joe, "You see that, Joe?"

while waving the poll numbers showing the support for a public option in front of his face.

[Pirate Smile]

16. Luckily, we don't need Joe anymore. We don't need him for the fixes.

[laughingliberal]

17. Joe has the bill he wants as does the President. My point is why did the President not call out

the conservadems when they were ruining the bill? IOW, why did the pressure start only after the bill was made about as bad as it could get?

I think we know the answer.

[Mithreal]

43. Only for the setup.

[Dr.Phool]

72. Joe the Dumber has a new gig?

[Bluenorthwest]

77. It appeared not to be random

But this does not mean that it was random. Not at all. Just that it looked that way. Not saying it was planned, just not saying it wasn't either, because who knows? If I were the Pres, I'd have set it up. It is a thing that is done far more often than you might know.

[mbperrin]

6. I won't be joining the flock. Too much unfinished business over the

years by politicians.

The living wage became the minimum wage with two increases in 25 years and 24 raises for Congress in the same period.

NCLB promised billions in education aid after testing determined who needed it. We're still testing, and now schools can "compete" for aid, with 90% receiving none.

Superconducting supercollider is an abandoned hole in the ground near Waxahachie.

"Safe" nuclear energy waste is being stored in a new dump on top of my drinking water. Where'd the waste come from? Other dumps that already leaked.

Too many more to count. So I've learned that if the whole package is not in place, no dice.

Single payer. Now. I'll take nothing over mandated insurance buys with no control over premium prices. "Right, we cannot deny you based on a pre-existing condition, but your premium will be $10,000 a month. No? Well, of course, it's YOUR choice! Don't forget to pay your fine for non-compliance on the way out."

[Mari333]

7. yeah, follow corporate DLC party line baby

but lube up for the GOP, health care lobbyists and people like LIEberman.

[Echo In Light]

9. Yep

[Lorien]

29. Yep. Killing Liberalism from within. nt

[laughingliberal]

37. Of course. Where else did the Republicans go when their party went bat shit crazy?

We have a preponderance of Reaganites in the party, now who didn't follow the bat shit crazies. But they are not supportive of core Democratic ideals, at all.

[Mithreal]

41. No room in the inn for Progressives.

[mmonk]

8. You get it.

Thanks for posting it. We all know where we stand with this party.

[reggie the dog]

10. i wont put on sheep's clothing

I am voting against obama next election

[t0dd]

32. ditto. nt

[SlingBlade]

61. Yep and all his cronies as well

[WeekendWarrior]

67. How Quickly We Forget

what the world was like when the Republicans were in power.

And don't give me that bullshit about the Dems being no different. I'm breathing a hell of a lot easier these days.

[slipslidingaway]

18. knr - for the past year there has always been pressure on people who challenge

the for profit companies, but the last minute attention on this one vote in the media, on the internet and by the WH has been sad to watch.

[Kalun D]

19. GOOD POINT

Kick and Recommend

I'm damn sure not voting for the corporate sellout Obama the next time around.

[Skidmore]

23. Lieberman is not a Democrat.

He left the party.

[Mithreal]

30. He caucuses with the Dems and has a significant committee chair

You know why he doesn't have the (D) behind his name but he will always have a place in Obama's heart. You never forget your first Senate mentor. They just couldn't quit each other.

Whatever.

Next you will be telling us Blanche isn't a dem.
Obama Supports Lincoln in Primary
http://firedoglake.com/2010/03/01/obama-supports-lincoln-in-primary/

[Skidmore]

24. Lieberman is not a Democrat.

He left the party.

[LynneSin]

27. He still has a committee chair within the party

but to be honest, we didn't need him for the final vote but it was close with the House.

[Mithreal]

39. May not have needed Lieberman for a vote, but for the setup, absolutely.

[Nikki Stone1]

36. YES!

We know which side the WH is on.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

45. Yupp, the side of the people n/t

[t0dd]

47. If you say so. nt

[stranger81]

50. While I agree progressives have been leaned on more than others,

I think this is largely a pragmatic, not an ideological, calculation. Obama was correct in thinking he had a chance of convincing Kucinich. He probably had no chance of convincing Holy Joe, no matter how much calling out he did -- Lieberman is bought and paid for already.

[Mithreal]

63. convincing? Holy Joe and Obama are two peas in a pod.

Right, on some of what you said. Obama's ideology didn't prevent him from taking single payer and public option off the table. But did he stop there? No way. I agree that it was all "pragmatic," nothing principled about it whatsoever. Politics is more fun anyway when you can just treat it as horse trading, you know Insurance Industrial Complex cash for writing a bill they could be satisfied with. Why get all mixed up in ideology, that's messy.

That may come across as a lil snarky, but I actually would like you to find the weak spot if there is one? I never doubted Obama would get anything but what he wanted.

[RainDog]

51. Obama is pretty disgusting to me at this point

honestly.

just the same old shit with a different face.

[democracy1st]

55. agree very disturbing,not sure whats going on with this admin!

[amborin]

56. K&R the whole episode is disgusting! O never once made this effort for the PO he campaigned

[Mithreal]

64. To be fair, he couldn't. It was off the table.

I wouldn't be surprised even if long before inauguration.

[SlingBlade]

57. We Elected Joe Lieberman President

K & R

And don't worry about the ObamaBots
They'll disappear back into the woodwork soon as Rahm send 'em the signal.

[DesertDiamond]

62. When he said he was willing to be a one-term president I thought he meant he was going to stand up

for the common people who voted for him. I have no idea now why I thought that. Of course. He meant he was going to *screw* the common people who voted for him.

[davidthegnome]

68. It seems to me...

That we're doing a better job of dividing ourselves than the republicans did when it came to dividing the Nation. I'm not talking about bi-partisan BS. I mean that this issue, healthcare reform, has driven a significant wedge between liberal democrats and centrist democrats (and even liberal VS liberal and centrist VS centrist). While one side may feel that it does not need the other, that would be untrue. Somehow, we have to find a way to better manage our differences in the future. There aren't enough on either side to go it alone.

Or perhaps this is a sign that the democratic party is indeed dead. I know that few, if any of us, have any real faith in congress. The faith in the President seems to be sinking. It all just seems so absurd. What happened to the sense of unity, of hope and optimism, of dreams realized when Obama won the election? It's not the ultimate goal, but it was a good start, wasn't it?

As for this bill in its current form, I've never been a big fan of it. But I won't do anything to oppose it either, because while I am extremely pessimistic about it, like DK I hope that something good comes of it. Something is better than nothing... usually, I hope this is not one of the exceptions.

Regardless of what we feel about this bill, I hope that in the future, we can all work together to improve it. We're not done yet, this is only the beginning. I'm going to try to be more positive and optimistic about this bill. If it's all we've got, then it's all we've got, and I'll do what I can to help improve it once it has passed. Though ultimately, I'm not really sure if my opinion, or even my effort, counts for very much.

I had such hopes for a single payer system, or failing that, a strong public option. When those hopes were dashed I spent some time too depressed and angry to look at the bigger picture. At this point though, I've realized that we can only progress through some level of unity - bickering endlessly among ourselves will solve nothing. If we do not agree on this current bill, then let's work together to improve it. I think we can all at least agree on that.

If it does indeed pass, how could we do anything else and still call ourselves progressives? For the sake of unity, I'll do my best to try to view this in a positive light, despite my reservations. There's good things about the bill, no matter how I feel about the bad ones. Rome wasn't built in a day... we won't accomplish true reform now. But perhaps this is a starting point from which we can eventually accomplish greater goals.

Despite our differences, let's try to work together to make this a better bill, which, ultimately, will make this a better Country.

[NorthCarolina]

78. Lieberman was DLC Chair for 6 years in the 90s

So he gets a pass for being one of the "good ol' boys". Kucinich on the other hand, being an unabashed Liberal and staunch advocate for the people, is a prime target for slander and ridicule by the DLC corporatists.

[avaistheone1]

81. So glad you posted this thread.

My sentiments as well.

:kick:



K&R

[treestar]

82. These things were happening at different times under different conditions

And Lieberman is in the Senate, not the House.

Back when Lieberman was the key vote - it was before the Brown election and they thought they were going to get HCR through.

And Dennis did not make his great splash on the stage over it until now.