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The New Poor: In Hard Times, Lured Into Trade School and Debt

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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:55 PM
Original message
The New Poor: In Hard Times, Lured Into Trade School and Debt
The New Poor


At institutions that train students for careers in areas like health care, computers and food service, enrollments are soaring as people anxious about weak job prospects borrow aggressively to pay tuition exceeding $30,000 a year.

But the profits have come at substantial taxpayer expense while often delivering dubious benefits to students, according to academics and advocates for greater oversight of financial aid. Critics say many schools exaggerate the value of their degree programs, selling young people on dreams of middle-class wages while setting them up for default on untenable debts, low-wage work and a struggle to avoid poverty. And the schools are harvesting growing federal student aid dollars, including Pell grants awarded to low-income students.

If these programs keep growing, youre going to wind up with more and more students who are graduating and cant find meaningful employment, said Rafael I. Pardo, a professor at Seattle University School of Law and an expert on educational finance. They cant generate income needed to pay back their loans, and theyre going to end up in financial distress.

-----------------

Jeffrey West was working at a pet store near Philadelphia, earning about $8 an hour, when he saw advertisements for training programs offered by WyoTech, a chain of trade schools owned by Corinthian Colleges Inc., a publicly traded company that last year reported revenue of $1.3 billion.

After Mr. West called the school, an admissions representative drove to his house to sell him on classes in auto body refinishing and upholstering technology, a nine-month program that cost about $30,000.

Mr. West blanched at the tuition, he recalled, but the representative assured him the program amounted to an antidote to hard economic times.

They said they had a very high placement rate, somewhere around 90 percent, he said. That was one of the key factors that caused me to go there. They said I would be earning $50,000 to $70,000 a year.

Some 14 months after he completed the program, Mr. West, 21, has failed to find an automotive job. He is working for $12 an hour weatherizing foreclosed houses.

With loan payments reaching $600 a month, he is working six and seven days a week to keep up.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/business/14schools.ht...
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Have you been listening in to our kitchen conversation?
20 minutes ago, our son told us about his former roommate who just "graduated" from ITT Tech..with $44K debt.. :(
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. We had a DUer a week or three ago all pumped up because he was starting ITT Tech..
Criminal Justice I believe it was..

I didn't have the heart to say anything negative..

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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The criminal justice ad runs constantly.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. And, when you graduate, you can get a job as a mall cop or
$8/hr security guard. That's about the extent of it.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. The ads imply that the program leads to CSI / tv detective level employment
..dusting for finger print / dna type work.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Yeah, I know. But they don't train you for anything but
"entry level" jobs. Security guards, primarily. Private detectives, too. As if there weren't enough of those to fill every open position. You have to watch the ads very, very carefully. Not one of them says anything about jobs in law enforcement. Police departments do their own training, and you get paid for it, besides.

These schools are pure scams. Local community colleges offer similar programs at low cost, and have active job placement systems. The people who complete those CC courses, get hired. The ITT folks? I don't know.

I'm familiar with the nursing home business. Virtually every aide or other paraprofessional working in the ones I know about came from the community college programs. Around here, most are Somali or other West African immigrants.

They have truck driving programs at the CCs, too. You leave with a Commercial Driver's License. Not a bad deal, and not too expensive, either.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. community colleges have *all* the trade programs, somewhere. at a fraction of the cost of those
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 08:30 PM by Hannah Bell
fraud schools.

their ads play on people's gullibility: "now i'm doing interesting work, supporting my family, & everyone *respects* me!"


plus, a community college degree is worth more than a fraud school degree -- to employers, & if you ever wanted to go back for more school.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 04:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
53. Just searched for the thread
Edited on Sun Mar-14-10 04:22 AM by fujiyama
All the posts, while encouraging him/her in their pursuit of further education, did fortunately advise him/her to look at other programs at local community colleges and smaller public universities.

When I first found out how much places like ITT costed I was shocked. I just don't understand the appeal of for-profit colleges, especially when a much more cost effective option can be had at community colleges and other small state schools.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:59 PM
Original message
OMG. Read further in the article about those "Le Cordon Bleu" culinary schools!
What the school does give many students is debt, often at double-digit interest rates debt that even bankruptcy cannot erase without a lengthy, low-odds legal proceeding.

When TJ Williams arrived in Portland from his home in Utah to enroll at Le Cordon Bleu in 2007, he was shocked by the terms of the aid package the school had arranged for him: One loan, for nearly $14,000, carried a $7,327 finance charge and a 13 percent interest rate.


BTW.. ITT Tech advertises constantly on TV here in LA, Young hispanic and african American men describing how their ITT tech degree got them a great career.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
84. could be worse. could be DeVry
:hide:
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Another brilliant scam on the working poor
K&R
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
57. and a scheme to defraud taxpayers..
since the loans are federally guaranteed. Default rates are much higher at for-profit schools.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. There are so many experienced auto techs laid off from closed dealerships
it's hard for a rookie to even get an interview, and if he does, the wages for that job are depressed.

But $30K is ridiculous for that type of schooling.
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cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. This sort of thing (technical schools) has been going on since the 80's
that I know of, but it seems they have increased their payouts significantly in this recent economic crisis.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The fashion design schools really get me... how many fashion designers do we need?
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Those, the "chef's" school, the "Art Institute", and so on are all nothing but highly profitable
confidence schemes.


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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
78. The Art Institutes ARE respectable.
EDMC takes great pains to distance its schools from places like ITT. They are middle states accredited, and offer bachelors degrees in nearly all their majors. I've seen some amazing talent coming out of AI. Many grads go on to top-notch careers.

False equivalence.

Art Institutes was not mentioned in the article. Just because they turn a profit doesn't automatically make them evil, or predatory.

Just a clarification.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. The Art Institute in Houston is a joke.
My DH went there to retrain for a career in Music & Video Production, after he got canned from engineering. He has 2 degrees (B.S. and M.S.) in math and physics, and knows his stuff about electronics, home recording, mixing down tracks, using computer software such as Cakewalk, and all that.

Well, he spent 18 months and ran up a huge bill in student loans. He said that he knew as much or more than the instructors. The only thing he learned in school was "Roll out the frequency range you don't want, instead of boosting what you do want". That's a very expensive lesson. He certainly is capable of being the chief recording engineer in a studio, or being a professional video cameraman, working for some one making movies, but there are no jobs out there.

Now he is on Social Security, and they take student loan money out of that. When he had a crappy job that did not pay the bills and he was insulted constantly, they took student loan money out because they said he had "discretionary income".

There was a lawsuit by about 200 plaintiffs against the Houston school and their false promises of job placement abilities, and that they knew the "inside track" to creative employment. The settlement was unfortunately not nearly enough to cover the tuition.

The credits from the Art Institute DO NOT transfer to regular universities. DH said the kids who went to school there goofed off, were not expelled for bad behavior, and spent lots of time outside smoking dope instead of paying attention in school.

And speaking of the so called Culinary Institute: I went there for a meal and I was able to eat the dinner roll, the iced tea and the steak, AFTER I sent it back to be cooked.

I had a horrible stomachache, DH had to drive home quickly to use the facilities, and it tasted horrible. For example:They had a fruit compote which they ruined by pouring licorice flavored liqueur over it. They mixed flavors just to be weird, they used tiny servings, on about eight different plates. I was not full and I had a terrible after taste and stomach ache. DH came down with an urgent case of dashing to the bathroom.

That is NOT gourmet cooking.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. What's really terrible is how this rip off places give themselves reputable SOUNDING names
'Le Cordon Bleu' my ass!
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. Sorry you had a bad experience
I don't know if AI Houston is part of EDMC. I've toured AI Pittsburgh and it's a great place. Some really incredible talent. Yeah, it's pricey, but sometimes you do get what you pay for.

Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, NY is one of the world's premier cooking schools. Incredibly competitive just to get in. I've eaten some of the best meals of my life in their restaurants.

Other schools calling themselves "Culinary Institutes" are just muddying the waters and besmirching legitimate schools. It's a shame.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #85
92. The AI Houston IS part of that chain.
My DH was by far the oldest plaintiff in the lawsuit. I went to the campus more than once and saw the caliber of the audio & video students(goof-offs who want to be the next rap star), and the sales pitch for that "hidden job market" from the "counselors" that was complete and total B.S.

This is why they were sued under the Texas Deceptive Trade Practices Act. Their claims about having connections to get people jobs after graduation was bull, and also their accreditation did NOT mean their credits would transfer. Although DH didn't have to worry about transferring credits since he already has a BS and MS.

DH earned a plaque for making a perfect 4.0 average and perfect attendance. He reasoned that if this was the last time he was changing careers, he would do the best he could. However, it did NOTHING for him as far as employment. I had the same problem. I worked as a court reporter for over 15 years, and saw hundreds of trials in all courts, from JP court to State and Federal.

I went to law school at night while working full time at the courthouse, and thought that knowing a huge amount about trial law and getting a JD would make me a very valuable legal assistant. I did not go through a mickey mouse "Paralegal" program. I got the Bachelor's degree in pre-med (very useful for medical expert witnesses) and the real law degree.

In two years of looking for a job, with the help of my law school's placement office, I got ONE job interview.

And some people wonder why we're bitter, him with his three degrees, and me waving my BA and JD that don't make me employable. I think it's disgraceful that they take student loan money out of his Social Security!!

We are not unique. We were told to study science by John F. Kennedy, for the space program and research and development so that we could lead the world in science and technology. There are millions of baby boomers that are highly skilled and educated and we have been kicked to the curb. It started back in the Reagan years. They destroyed the middle class.


I am just glad we were able to retire and don't have to blast ourselves out of bed five days a week to go to a stressful, low paid job with an insulting and insecure boss, that doesn't use our skills. I'm glad I don't have to go to a job, and neither does DH, that is so stressful it turns us into burned out, hateful people.



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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Thank you for the clarification
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
90. don't forget travel agent and hotel manager "schools"
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Nursing boards say new grads are having troulbe
finding hospital jobs, too. It seems that an economic downturn means people with no jobs also have no health insurance, and that keeps patient census low and hospitals are being picky about not hiring new nurses.

That doesn't mean it's the same in all markets, of course, and flexibility is key in that particular profession. One has to be willing to accept any specialty and any hours, especially in the beginning.

However, training for any trade that can't be exported will usually pay off at some point, if only because you can save a bundle by doing your own work.

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njlib Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
87. Newly licensed 43 year old LPN here
I took my NCLEX March 9th, got my "Pass" quick result March 11th.

I'm now going to spend the rest of the week filling out applications. I live in northwest NJ, so I'll be hitting every facility in the county, then working farther out from home each day. Everyone wants experience, at least one year, so the trick will be finding a place that will take a chance on a new grad. I'm hoping the fact that I live in a sparsely populated area will work to my advantage.

I ended up going to a for profit school because at the time I had a full-time day job and the night classes were "doable" with my work schedule. My community college only offered RN and I wasn't sure if I had what it takes, so I started with LPN. Turns out, my very first clinical experience confirmed I made the right career choice. The 18 month LPN program was $17,000. I got a small Pell grant, due to being unemployed since 2/09, and made monthly payments to the school all along that total over $2K. I plan on going to the community college for my RN and will hopefully have a job in a facility that offers tuition reimbursement.

So now, I just have to find a job....

:crazy:
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. Used to be that "trade school" was called "vocational education" &
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 03:10 PM by WolverineDG
it was a separate track in public high schools. Kids who went "vo-tech" graduated with enough experience in auto mechanics to open up their own shops the day after graduation, & those who studied to become plumbers & electricians graduated as journeymen. Girls who took cosmetology could take their tests & become licensed soon after graduation as well. Surprisingly enough, drop out rates were low, because if you didn't like the academic track, chances were something in vo-tech would keep you interested in school enough to hang around & get a diploma. But nooooo, we had to go with this "all kids will go to college" meme, erase vo-tech from the public schools, & force all kids onto the academic track.

on edit: I think nursing was offered as well, but I'm not sure, since to get an RN, you still need a 4 year degree.

How's that working out?

dg
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. jeeezuzinahandbasket, they had home ec as a 4 year
subject in the high school I went to in the 60s. I wonder how that worked out for anyone.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Home ec was a legitimate college degree back in the day. All the college food service
managers where home ec majors.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. Never mind about learning how to design & make your own clothes
so you can save money. That's sexist!

dg
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. So you're okay with banning voc ed from public schools?
Just because of home ec? What point against "The Man" would you be trying to prove with that?

I would have loved to take home ec so I could have learned to design & make my own clothes, but noooooooo, that was sexist I was told, so I had to take something else instead to show how "liberated" I was.

dg
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onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
55. oh, no. Not at all.
I'm one of those "college ain't my way to riches" guys. I just happened to be growing up in the late 60s when vo tech and home ec were real subjects. Now there aren't any inner city school programs that would even come close to what we were taught back then.

I think you mis understood my post. It was probably the way I worded it, I apologize.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. okay, sorry :) nt
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Retrograde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
77. If I had my way
students - male and female - would take home ec and shop in high school.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Our local community college offers a mechanic and welding program.. low cost
Makes more sense then going 30K into debt to learn to upholster. Whatever happened to learning trades by working as an apprentice. I can't imagine any auto upholstery shop being impressed by an upholstering degree.

By the way...the young man in the article with the upholstery degree should try to setup his own shop, work out of his garage.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. Employers are externalizing the price of training.
It used to be your could get a fairly general degree, find a job, and your employer would train you how to do it. Not anymore...

It's up to you now to anticipate every skill that the employer might potentially need and then spend your own time and money acquiring it.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. VocEd had to be eliminated, it was useful and actually contributed to social mobility
and a growing middle-class. Further, it was accomplished with a minimum of expense and provided a lifetime income for it's recipients, all without incurring a debt-load. My God Man! You'd create masses of independent citizens with the ability to seriously resist the theft of their wealth.

All these things are antithetical to the "corporate world" (neo-feudalism).


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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Voc-ed died because everyone got told they needed a college degree
whether they were interested in academics, had the aptitude, or had prepared themselves by taking any college prep classes in high school. Everyone wants a college degree. Vocational education was downgraded as if it were somehow a shameful thing to learn a trade. Very sad since these jobs pay a lot better than many jobs college graduates end up doing.

College is not the only route to a successful future. And it is a route to failure if you don't learn anything.

At least being a plumber or an auto mechanic gives you a marketable skill.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Marketing college degrees was the point.
Denver VocEd was always full and in demand back in the day, it was de-funded when the Raygunites took over. They tried to keep it in CA, but Prop 13 killed it, and it was similarly cut in Cascadia. I don't know about the rest of the country.


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. Bingo! +1!
:yourock:
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. No joke -- high school voc tech programs provided basic training and it didn't cost a cent.
Three of my siblings graduated from vocational programs and two used that training for entry into what became their careers. Don't forget that there were also huge secretarial/clerical programs too.

Nursing programs tended to be for CNAs and LPNs, not RNs but again it gave those students a leg up if they decided to go into an RN program (there used to be two year RN schools affiliated with hospitals IIRC and those who had proven themselves as LPNs were considered good candidates.)
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. Our district still offers a comprehensive vocational curriculum.
They also offer community college credit hours.

Traditional public school in a blue collar inner-ring suburb. No rich kids' charter school.

I'm pretty proud of them. :hug:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
54. We have a magnet school for vo-tech in our county.
They call it JVS. It is how you describe.
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RexS Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
10. Been happening for decades now, 'retrain for a new field of work'
Tired of making minimum wage? Make 40k after investing 100k in our trade school so you can be a weener!'
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. my own son is taking so many classes
he has completed lab tech course..no jobs

cna course...no jobs

phlebotomy tech ....no jobs

and numerous other courses..

I will be paying for his classes for EMT training.
he is a vet. no jobs.

he wont re up in the national guard, which I am proud of him for.

but he has a baby and a wife, she has a BA in culinary arts

no job for her either.

god bless them, they are both trying really hard...


no jobs.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
28. I'm sorry Mari
I do think the young people today have it so much tougher. I hope they find something great.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yep, school loan programs turned into corporate welfare.
Welcome to WorkCamp America

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. Where I am, the local community colleges offer equivalent programs,
and they're taxpayer supported. The cost is so much lower than these private schools that it should be a crime for these schools to exist.

Plus, the people who complete these vocational programs at community colleges have an excellent hiring record.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Same with our community colleges.
I don't understand why someone would pay a for-profit college tuition when the local community colleges are doing nearly the same thing (and better).
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Right. There are programs for many trades, including culinary arts,
nurses aides, phlebotomists, medical clerical, truck driving, automotive repair, plumbing, welding, electrical work, etc. They're very popular and the graduates are getting hired.

They don't lead to high-paying jobs, necessarily, but the programs aren't that expensive. Well worthwhile.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
45. Classism and the desire to have a degree from a "good school".
The thinking is that the person who went to the "good school" is more likely to get the job then if the person went to a community college. it's all BS of course.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
68. Like ITT Tech is a "good" school.
Sorry if any readers here attended one of them for offending.
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pstokely Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
58. Because they saw the ITT Tech ad on TeeVee
nt
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
70. Around here, the CCs are overbooked & understaffed
Classes get offered in their catalog, but either they cannot get teachers for the classes & they get canceled, or there are so many people wanting the classes, there are not enough..and students cannot GET the classes they want/need.

and then there's the supply-demand bugaboo. Articles get written about how there's a great need for x, y or z, so people rush to get training, nd by the time they finish, there are too many people chasing too few jobs again..rinse & repeat..


The sad reality is that the only real "growth" industry right now (and for the next decade or so) will be in jobs that are involving the care of elderly Boomers about to exit-stage-left...That takes a very special type of person. Not everyone is interested in the care/feeding of old people.

Our economy has been reduced to the lowest common denominator already, and make-believe jobs involving money-stock manipulation, real estate manipulation have been exposed for what they are, corporations are shedding USA-based jobs as fast as they can, independent start-ups fail at a 90% rate..or so I've heard.. Being paid an almost-livable wage, selling stuff to others just like you, is about the best most can do these days..

The nursing home/funeral business should be booming for a few decades...and after that?..who knows?




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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Community college is the way to go
Ivy Tech in Indiana has many similar programs to ITT tech, but they only charge about $3000 a year for tuition and books.

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KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. television runs these ads
and why are they not held legally or at least morally responsible for these scams.
They make tons of money running ads that exploit people. While occassionally the companies get in trouble, the stations must troll for the next scam artists because it is one after another.

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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. If you're going to get into the building trades, find an apprentice program instead.
Get paid while you learn.
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MichaelHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. Organized labor
and trade unions fed our family while I was growing up. A+ for your wise recommendation.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. Thank you.
Why anyone would pay to learn how to be a carpenter or electrician blows my mind.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
59. +1 That's the real deal.
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Not only that, you earn while you learn!
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. Don't want this to sink because of the assault on Kucinich.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. It's a great thread. These for-profit "schools" (read: scams) are the Payday Loans of education.
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 08:26 PM by scarletwoman
As someone else on this thread pointed out, there really shouldn't be any government-sponsored student aid going into their coffers.

sw
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
29. $30,000 a year for TRADE SCHOOL?!?!?!?!?!?!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I can get an MD for less! :eyes:

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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. A nine month program at that.

He chose poorly when he encountered a ripoff.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #29
73. And 10s of thousands per year to learn to cook???
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Jkid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
32. These insitutes are outright frauds and should be put out of business.
I see this ads every commercial break on daytime TV. They offer the same slick deal. The slick deal is that you can get trained in criminal justice, nursing, etc and get a high paying job. Job placement and financial aid (read: Loans) available. Only problem is that most likely you won't get any high-paying job and the only thing you actually get is more debt.

Community colleges do the same thing for a much lower cost. In the UK, they don't have these private institutes because they are not taxpayer supported.

The best way to end this constant fraud is to restrict educational grants and loans to public educational facilities. Let the private facilities bleed out.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. Community colleges definitely offer a much better "bang for your buck"
Plus, often times they have articulation agreements with four year colleges, so if the person wanted to get a bachelor's degree in the future, some of their credits would possibly transfer counting toward the degree.

I still think it's a shame that the country totally neglected vocational and apprenticeship programs over the years. Hands-on skills are very useful and societies should maintain them. For example, I'll admit that my dad is much better at dealing with say a plumbing issue around the house than myself. And even though we both have engineering degrees, his understanding is much stronger than mine. I also remember reading a survey showing fewer people interested in working with their hands - actually building and fixing things.

And people shouldn't have to go into debt $50k learning how to do those things eithe.



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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Go to your local community college!!
I did.

In the 1970s there was a ripoff proprietary school called McMahon College. They taught Court Reporting. (Machine shorthand).

The people in school had to pay more tuition, the closer they were to graduation and the higher speed they could take shorthand. You graduated and took your state test at 225 words per minute.

In 1975, the guy who owned McMahon College absconded to South America with $500,000 in student loan money. The ex-students had to file a class action suit against the govt to get their money back.

Houston Community College started a court reporting school to accommodate all these people who had nowhere to go. I went to HCC and just happened to start at the same time all the people from McMahon were absorbed. I got a good education in 2 years, and it was the only degree out of my three that ever got me a job (BA and JD do nada in the job market).

Most of the HCC credits did not transfer to a regular university, but it did not matter since I had four years in four-year college and 5 years in grad school.

I was the first person to graduate from HCC with an AAS in court reporting.

The Art Institutes, ITT Tech, MTI, all these vocational schools are a total rip-off. Go to your local community college instead. Don't run up huge loan debts.


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
42. Student Loan Debt is a form of social control by the Elites on the rest of us.
I will never take out a student loan, EVER. Even if it takes me until I'm 30 before I get my Bachelor's.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. Yes, that's it exactly! Excellent observation, thank you.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
61. You're welcome!
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
62. If it takes you that long, is it even worth it? nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
69. For what I want to do, yes.
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Joe the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
44. K&R I would too avoid those for profit schools.....
Like the article said, they usually charge more and deliver lackluster results. Seems to be the norm with anything for profit/private these days, charges more and delivers bad results. And the right wingers always say the government can't do anything right :eyes: idiots.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
46. I remember reading this long article on these "career" colleges in the Ft Worth Star Telegram
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 08:57 PM by tammywammy
They're such a rip-off. The local Tarrant County College offers the same associate degrees and much cheaper! I go to a private university and I will only have a little more debt than some of these students, and I'll be getting a bachelor's degree while they're getting an associates. I used to see commercials for these schools all the time, especially before I got cable, for their medical billing and coding, hotel management, etc. What we need to do is increase vocational schools in high school. The lady that used to be my hair dresser, she went through the only one my city offers for cosmetology, and told me as soon as she graduated high school she was out there cutting hair. (The only reason she's not still my hair dresser, is she went to school for nursing and is working in that field now).

Even more important, we have a large company around the area that employs lots of machinists and they're all about to start retiring. The local schools don't teach anything like that and there's not a lot of people that know how to do it. There's going to be a huge market for people with those skills. If only the local school board would actually listen to the people when we say we want more vocational options for the high schoolers.

http://www.star-telegram.com/2009/05/16/1381781/before-...

"Newton said she has $8,000 in student loan debts after enrolling in the medical billing and coding program at the Fort Worth campus. She said she learned her trade primarily from reading her books and that her first job after graduating paid $10.50 an hour.

"I was making more when I was working at Albertsons," she said."
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. K & R - very interesting and informative thread.
Kicking it as a public service. Hopefully a few people will read it and NOT get ripped off!
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #46
72. The primary 'careers' advertised on local cable today are: Law/criminal justice, some kind medical
assistant thing (carefully worded so the naive might believe they are going to working at the nurse level), ITT tech.
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. I go to a small private university
And people go "Where?" and I tell them and then usually follow up with "it's a real university, not like ITT Tech or anything." lol ;)
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. OUCH for ITT. lol
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
50. It's really sad. I see those commercials all the time
That type of false advertising should be illegal... or at least the govt should put out ads reminding people to research those careers online http://www.bls.gov/
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johnlucas Donating Member (248 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
51. I almost fell into this trap
During a time when my job prospects weren't stable (unemployed then temp worker) I desperately signed up for the summer quarter of South University in Savannah, Ga about 7 years ago. Unlike my prior tuition going to Savannah Technical Institute which I could pay out of pocket working a pizza place job, I had to use student loans to attend this school since grants weren't nearly enough to cover it. I'm really wary about getting into deep debt but I kept looking at the aftermath of getting that degree (Business Administration/Information Technology).

It wasn't even something I planned on making a major part of my life. It was really all a Plan B since I planned to make my living doing creative things in art, music, & things like that. But I don't believe in that starving artist nonsense & know that I need something to take care of the day to day. I planned on saving the money made in this Plan B & THEN using to get the tools I needed to enact my entrepreneurial plans to work my meager creative talents. It's all about coming up with an idea that resonates not necessarily being the most skilled in your craft though some craft-work counts.

In the middle of that quarter I had doubts about continuing down this path. I knew I was suckered by the admissions dude (he praised my "intelligence" when I passed the entrance tests like I was the smartest thing ever). The timing of the classes interfered with this temp job where I worked 12 hours days sometimes more. I would sometimes miss classes since it took so long to drive 2 counties over to get to the university. And most of all besides recognizing this whole thing was a contingency plan to supply my main aspirations I didn't dig having to go for 4 year Bachelor's Degrees when each quarter cost almost $3000 a piece!

One of the classes I took talked about positive thinking & in it the teacher said something to the effect that a degree only means something if people value it. Something to the effect that knowledge learned is knowledge learned & all the rest is a gimmick just to ease other people's minds. Why I never said spoke up & said "Then why are we taking these classes at this school?" I'll never know.

I snapped out of that desperation phase by the time the temporal seasonal job ended that November (they made gift wrapping paper & naturally it's all over once the "holiday season" arrives). I said screw school. These colleges always drag things out making you take a bunch of useless irrelevant courses when they could get down to the nitty gritty & save time. I really need to read Shakespeare to be in tech support, eh? Please. The best way to do things is to be self-taught. To use that self-teaching in an entrepreneurial way. Don't have to deal with the stupid prejudices of the job market & all the hoops they make you go through when you see the opportunity, have the tools & means to use that opportunity, & sell a desired product to people. Damn a resume. I'll eliminate the middleman & talk directly to the people. And another man won't get rich off of all my hard work.

So I didn't sign up for Fall Quarter or Winter Quarter or any other quarter & just spent the next few years paying that near $3000 off. A $3000 mistake that I will never forget & a $3000 lesson that showed me once & for all that no building owns knowledge. Knowledge is everywhere & free to pick up. It's on the ground, it's in the air, it's in the water, it's in outer space. I could easily do well in an academic setting. I actually enjoyed going to those classes in South University. But that scene just ain't for me. Regardless of my struggles, I'll trust myself to get the knowledge I need. And when I finally get the necessary knowledge, I'll never work for another man/woman again. I'll never have to play this stupid job market game & kiss ass to some ignorant employer. I'll make something that draws legitimate interest & will receive all the reward for my dedication.

And when I get my rewards I'll have the sense to live off of a fraction of what I make so I'll never have to be put in this position ever again. Who needs an overgrown house & fancy cars & all this status seeking shit? I'll get what's useful to me never interested in impressing anyone else & will always have my own personal bail-out fund for those rainy days sure to come.

If only it didn't take me $3000 to solidify this view.
John Lucas
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. I was shaking my head tonight
A guy was going back to college, all on loans -including paying for rent etc. He borrowed $30K for one semester, he said. And he's 38 years old. He'll not make that money back in the 18 working years he has IF he gets a job. He will be otrmented the remainder of his life by student loan debt.

and- YOU CAN"T DECLARE BANKRUPTCY to avoid paying the student loan. You paid $3,000 and got off easy. Libraries have amazing info in them for free. Come up with an idea and start small, maybe. You are clearly ahead of the herd. I bet you'll be fine.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #51
71. Thanks for the story. Glad you escaped the trap.
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DailyGrind51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
60. "Retraining" of older laid-off workers was part of the "blame the victim" meme of conservatives.
Merely having the training does not mean that employers will be receptive to hiring older workers for entry level jobs when there are so many younger candidates available.
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Naturalist111 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
66. Lured
All types of people are lured into many types of high priced scams. There are more scams than non scams. There is however in our existing system discounts for the wealthy.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Indeed there are, but to what specifically were you referring? n/t
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Naturalist111 Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #67
93. keyword "many"
Edited on Tue Mar-16-10 09:39 PM by Naturalist111
I was not referring to anything specifically, obviously with the word "many". However I could ask what are you specifically asking by your question "Indeed there are, but to what specifically were you referring?" You agreed indeed there are and if you already know, why ask? I hope that clears it up for ya hound dog :-)
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dembotoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
75. in times like these even BS and BA degress from real universities seem questionalble
My kid has a 4 year degree in being a cop from a major state school and he is just as underemployed at the other folks listed above.
He is working at Best Buy.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
76. Sometimes even regular universities/colleges will tell prospective students that jobs are plentiful

in a certain field. Or jobs are easy to find if you'll relocate it. It ain't necessarily so.



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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. I'm waving my B.A. in Biology and my J.D. (law degree) frantically!
Never got a job with either one of them.

Five years for the BA, Five years of night school for the law degree (90 semester hours of COMPLETE HELL).
Both expensive private schools. I worked at the courthouse and paid for the law degree. My folks paid for the BA.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
86. $30k a year could get you into Harvard for a year or 4 years at a State College
Wow, didn't realize these things were that fricking expensive.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
88. U of Phoenix online is CARLYLE GROUP, fyi and
they have another co to suck up military college $$$$ and they're both GARBAGE.

Pass it on.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
89. look up ads for trade school "admissions" recruiters --
the pay's great if you can LIE LIE LIE.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
91. damn...some years ago i gave serious thought to WyoTech
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 03:52 PM by Blue_Tires
but then again my thoughts didn't get to the costs of tuition...

is there any for-profit industry that doesn't eventually get turned into shit?
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