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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:29 PM
Original message
CIA spiked baguettes with LSD, new evidence suggests
Source: Radio France International

In the summer of 1951, the residents of a quiet town in southern France were racked with mysterious hallucinations that the authorities blamed on mouldy bread. But now, an American journalist claims that the villagers were the unwitting participants in a secret CIA experiment to discover the mind control potential of psychedelic drugs.

At least five people died, more than 30 were hospitalised and almost 300 taken ill in the unexplained outbreak in Pont-Saint-Esprit, a town in the Gard, south-east France. On 17 August 1951, local doctors' surgeries were filled with people complaining of sudden nausea, diarrhea and insomnia. Hours later, many of them were in the grip of terrifying and often violent hallucinations. One girl believed she was being attacked by tigers. A man tried to drown himself after seeing snakes in his stomach. Another flung himself from a window, believing he was an aeroplane. And an 11-year-old boy tried to strangle his grandmother.

An investigation at the time determined that the town's main bakery was to blame. Scientists suspected that the baker's flour had been accidentally contaminated with a naturally occuring hallucinogenic substance - most likely ergot, a type of psychedelic mould. This explanation was never considered fully satisfactory, however. A US laboratory that asked volunteers to ingest ergot-dosed bread found that none of its subjects presented similar symptoms to the residents of Pont-Saint-Esprit.

Almost 60 years later, new evidence has been uncovered that suggests more sinister forces were at work. According to investigative journalist Hank P Albarelli Jr, the CIA and US Army deliberately contaminated Pont-Saint-Esprit with LSD as part of Cold War-era research into mass mind control. Albarelli claims to have uncovered CIA documents that refer to "the secret of Pont-Saint-Esprit" and explain that the symptoms were called not by ergot but by diethylamide, one of the main substances - the D - in LSD.

MORE AT LINK

Read more: http://www.english.rfi.fr/americas/20100312-cia-spiked-...



Sixty years!

All the covert operations books must be thrown open now.

Whether you call it a democracy or a republic, open government is impossible when secret state agencies are given extralegal powers they are allowed to exercise in secret, with the justification of a permanent crisis or war.

This form of power will always corrupt. It will always corrode. We do not have democracy as long as such institutions are tolerated.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is just so CIA. I am never surprised at what the CIA -- or other factors
of the government -- use us for, in the name of the 'greater good'. :grr:


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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. CIA fed at least one DUer's father LSD, and he died as a direct result.
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 09:06 AM by Octafish
The story makes it seem like he was thrown from an upper story hotel to silence him, after he commented on the NAZI-like nature of the LSD program.

Know your BFEE: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ford Covered Up CIA Murder of American Scientist
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. "makes it seem like"...
why the weasel wording, dude?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. Were you there? That's what it seems like. Likely was murder, IMO.
...Based on the facts of the case.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. I read that story 30 years ago
They claimed it was in the bread, just as related here.

The problem with letting gov. agents do stuff like this is that then other gov agents are forced to cover it up. Which leads to more cover ups leading to no one giving a shit about cover ups cuz they all do it!

And that's how we got bushco.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Heh
Edited on Fri Mar-12-10 11:04 PM by BeFree
Why do you have a problem with me bashing bushco? Does me bashing bushco give you a heartache? Make you nervous? Obviously, it really agitates the shit out of you when I bash bushco. Why is that?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Dude....
Edited on Fri Mar-12-10 11:20 PM by SDuderstadt
what does the story have to do with "Bushco"? What agitates me is your shoot-first, ask-questions-later style.

To everyone else in this thread...Notice anything missing from the story? Hint:where are the CIA documents the author claims corroborates his allegations?

It may well be true, but you just uncritically accept it and pile on the CIA because they're "bad dudes". In Logic this is called "false certainty". But, by all means, don't let that hold you back.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Shoot first?
It makes you upset that I take shots at bushco?
My shots at bushco "agitates" you? Why is that?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Dude....
Edited on Fri Mar-12-10 11:45 PM by SDuderstadt
you have this really bad habit of twisting what I say into something totally different. The issue I have is your "shoot-first, ask-questions-later style, irrespective of your target.

Quit playing word games, dude.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Shoot first?
Son, I have been asking questions of the CIA before you even knew what the CIA meant. And I have this feeling you still don't know what the CIA actually means.

So your attack on me is faulty and baseless. You ARE agitated by my relentless attacks on bushco, and I asked you why it agitates you so much, because your attacks on me don't make any sense in the big picture.

What you are doing here is attacking the messenger, - me - and not the message.
It is curious why you would expend so much time and energy doing so.

So, again, I will ask you: Why does it agitate you so much, when I attack bushco?

Can you give a straight answer for once?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'm certain I know a lot more about the CIA than you do...
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 12:18 AM by SDuderstadt
dude.

I'm not defending either "Bushco" or the CIA here, dude. I am asking you what this story has to do with "Bushco" and how we know the story is even true. Don't we get incensed when our RW political opponents "shoot-first-and-ask-questions-later"? Do you think it makes sense that we should differentiate ourselves from them simply because it's the right thing to do?

I'm mostly agitated by your twisting what I actually say to make it sound like I said something completely different.

As I asked before, what does this story have to do with "Bushco", dude?

P.S. Anytime you want to go one-on-one about the CIA, I'm game, dude, until the first time you misrepresent what I've actually said.

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Your attacks...
...tell me about all I need to know.

Once again, I have been asking questions about the CIA, for years. And after all that time, guess what? I don't trust that the CIA is looking out for me. Maybe you think it is looking out for you?

So, your attacks and evident prejudices here are faulty and baseless. Leaving me to first ask questions about why you are attacking me. Notice I am not shooting you. I am only asking a question of you: Why?

You, here, are shooting at me, and that means you're going in a circle with your debate. And it's beginning to look like you are circling the drain.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Dude...
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 12:51 AM by SDuderstadt
please point to anywhere where I have "attacked" you, as opposed to attacking the tactics you use. Go back to my previous posts and show me where I have attacked you personally, dude.

And, since you claim to know so much about the CIA, perhaps you could tell us why being a NOC is so dangerous. Do you know what the difference is between the DCI and the DNI?

I'm certain that the CIA is as terrified of you as "Buhco" is, dude.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
33. If Bushco is so innocent, why did Cheney and Rummy pay hush money to silence talk of the program?
Look up Frank Olson and how Ford's fixers worked to bring "closure" to the case.

http://www.serendipity.li/cia/olson2.htm
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. What the fuck are you babbling about now, dude?
What in the world does the Olson case have to do with the baguette?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. LSD
Duh.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. By that reasoning, all murders committed with guns are...
"connected" to each other.

Simple question, dude. How is the Olson case specifically connected to thegoofy allegations about the town in France?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. CIA engaged in LSD experiments in the USA.
That's not nice, if they did it in France, too.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. As usual, you're missing the point, dude...
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 01:58 PM by SDuderstadt

I keep aaking for specific proof about the incident in the French town and all I get is the typical CT shuck and jive.

This is why I have such contempt for CT thypes, dude.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. No. As usual, you create the straw man to attack.
And, in the process, hijack the thread and taint the good names of all who believe there is more to the story than what the authorities want us to see.

And that is why I have such contempt for the lone-nutter crowd, duh.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Ummm, dude....
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 05:31 PM by SDuderstadt
I don't recall American authorities putting out a story about the incident in France, do you? Talk about a strawman.

So, it's you against "the Man", dude. Except in this case, you've had even more than 47 years to "crack the case". And, in the JFK case, you've got dick for all your efforts.

Keep digging, dude. Maybe you solve it in another couple of decades.

As far as your "lone nutter" label (actually a rhetorical trick to try to tear down the WC because you have dick for evidence), I accept the WCR provisionally. That means if you come up with concrete evidence of anything, I'm open to it. However, after 47 years, you've got dick.
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Therellas Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. dude dude dude dude dude dude dude dude dude
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 08:45 PM by Therellas

dude
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I'm sure you'll get...
the hang of posting very soon, dude.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. CIA (and US Army) experimenting on large numbers of people
came to light about 1977 in the Church hearings. A huge shit pile of documents were recently released under Clinton, with an ongoing trickle since then.

You will find many of the documents here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/index.html

A run down here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

And at the author's site (this article) here (click documents):

http://www.albarelli.net /

I note that part of the witness testimony in the 70's was that the CIA had ordered basically a barrel of LSD (they got 4KG, wanted more) right about the time this is alleged to have happened.

The whole mkultra program is a fascinating story of the military industrial complex run amuck. Do we know for sure this is what happened in France? No, but it sure fits. In time frame, intentions, and so on. Creepy dosing of an entire village would be completely consistent with the kind of crap they were playing around with, justified by the cold war and paid for with tax dollars.

What does Bushco have to do with this you ask? Befree told you. It's the same sick thread. What does Bushco have to do with the US all of a sudden torturing people? You might as well ask that, and maybe the more recent facts will jar you or your memory that we did indeed just go through a period where we tortured people. "We" the military industrial complex we pay for. Indeed as part of the torture, some of Yoo's thinking was that, while we are waterboarding them, we ought to experiment a bit with mind altering drugs on these extra-judicially designated by the President "enemy combatants."

At a certain point, a rational individual possessed with a factual knowledge of the mountain of evil malfeasance that just occurred under Bush/Cheney, cannot help but say to oneself "holy shit, what a bunch of fucking Nazi's." And further they can do so with no fear of offending Godwin, since it's a fair assessment.

Then that person might man google and look to what Prescott Bush and his pals were doing in the world circa the fucking nazi's and you realize it's all the same damn day, dude. Hence, "Bushco."

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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. "Do we know for sure this is what happened in France? No, but it sure fits"
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 01:12 AM by SDuderstadt
You just proved my point, dude. Did you see that?

So, where is Albarelli's proof? You really want to to equate GHW Bush with the Nazis? Really?
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I wrote it, pretty good chance I saw it, huh dude?
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 01:39 AM by Snazzy
"So, where is Albarelli's proof?"

Go to his site, click documents. You asked where the documents are, there you go.

Albarelli states himself that we may never know for sure. It was black op. But as I stated, as he states and demonstrates at book length, the shoe fits.

Do I want to equate GW with Nazis? Yes, absolutely.

Edit: saw the H, GHWB too.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. That's funny...
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 01:48 AM by SDuderstadt
dude....I went to Albarelli's documents tab and there is absolutely nothing like what you described. That should be apparent by your inability to cite a specific document. Instead, you just yammer, "it's in the documents section". I challenge you to provide a link to a specific document. Please point it out to us.

http://www.albarelli.net/documents.pdf

Albarelli states himself that we may never know for sure. It was black op. But as I stated, as he states and demonstrates at book length, the shoe fits
.


Hmmm, so the guy whom you're relying on for proof that the claim is true says we may never know for sure. Don't you find that weird, dude? Isn't that code for, "I really have no proof, but I'll make it sound like I do"?

Do I want to equate GW with Nazis? Yes, absolutely.

you're at odds with Joe Conason, then....

http://www.nyobserver.com/pages/story.asp?ID=8054


Bush 'Nazi' smear unworthy of critics Joe Conason - The New York Observer

10.22.03 - Liberal invective against George W. Bush has not yet descended to the depths plumbed by conservatives in their crusade against the Clintons, but that isn't because nobody's trying. Mr. Bush's most zealous opponents apparently believe that his faults, and those of his cronies and his administration, will be insufficient to unseat him next year.

That may be why some Bush critics have been circulating a story about the financial connections between his paternal grandfather, Prescott Bush Sr., and a Nazi industrial magnate named Fritz Thyssen.

The sinister cooperation between prominent American businessmen and their counterparts in Hitler's Germany is an important episode whose details are still being revealed by historians. It instructs us about the terrible crimes that can be committed in the pursuit of profit by men (and they were all men) who regard themselves as a superior race and class. It implicates such famous names as Ford, Standard Oil, General Motors and Dupont. In the case of Prescott Bush Sr., this sorry history shows that even a man who later displayed decent instincts could have been guilty of awful judgment and worse.

According to archival and declassified material recently published, the founder of the Bush political dynasty had much to answer for during his earlier career on Wall Street. Picking up on an investigative story in the New Hampshire Gazette, last week the Associated Press reported on Prescott Sr.'s role in the Union Banking Corp., which served as a front for Thyssen's conglomerate.

Quite reasonably, the U.S. government suspected Union Banking of aiding the Nazis through Thyssen, who had helped to finance Hitler's rise and whose coal and steel holdings were integral to the German war machine. That suspicion led federal officials to seize Union Banking's assets in October 1942 under the Trading With the Enemy Act. While Prescott Sr. held only a single share of Union Banking stock, he also served as one of seven corporate directors whose apparent purpose was to help Thyssen conceal the bank's real ownership.

What the A.P. story notes -- unlike many of the Internet stories circulating about the "Bush-Nazi connection" -- is that, by 1938, Fritz Thyssen had fallen out with the Nazi regime he had helped bring to power, evidently "over their persecution of Catholics and Jews." After fleeing to neutral Switzerland, Thyssen was arrested by the Nazis. At the moment when his U.S. assets were seized, Thyssen was in a Nazi prison, where he remained until the end of the war.

Those complicating facts don't absolve Thyssen or his American associates. The involvement of Prescott Sr. and other members of the American business aristocracy with Nazi-era industry was shameful, and in some instances illegal -- and they knew it.

Like so many Americans who made deals with fascist interests or lent political support to them during the 30's, those businessmen got off rather easily after the war. Most of them, including Bush, were permitted to keep the money they had made with the Germans.

They're all dead now, however. Prescott Sr. died more than 30 years ago.

Before he went to his final reward, the Bush patriarch was elected from Connecticut to the U.S. Senate, where he served from 1952 until he retired 10 years later. He was a liberal Eisenhower Republican who distinguished himself as an opponent of McCarthyism and an advocate of public housing.

Henry Ford was a Nazi collaborator. Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. was a Nazi sympathizer. Unless additional information emerges to indict him, Prescott Bush Sr. was neither. To misuse such terms for political advantage against his grandson is to trivialize very grave offenses.

Whatever the President's grandfather did or may have done, how does that reflect on George W. Bush? In 1942, he hadn't been born yet. If he is nevertheless accountable for Prescott Sr.'s actions, fairness requires that a similar standard be applied to other descendants of politicians and businessmen whose attitude toward Nazism was, at best, ambivalent. Should anyone named Kennedy, Harriman, Dupont or Fish be arraigned for the offenses of their dead ancestors? Should everyone boycott Ford Motors?

The obvious answer is no. In America, the sins of the fathers are not held against the children, nor should they be. Although the Bushes have too often lowered themselves into the gutter for political gain, that doesn't give license to libels against them.

It is ironic that the President would be arraigned on a bum rap at a moment when his poll numbers are declining, his advisers admit he is vulnerable, and several books excoriating him have appeared on the best-seller lists.

There are many unflattering terms that can and should be used to describe George W. Bush. He is, among other things, a truly bad President. But neither his offenses, nor the Republican Party's politics of personal destruction, can justify using such tactics against him. Imputing Nazi sympathies to the President or his family ought to be beneath his adversaries.

COPYRIGHT (c) 2003 THE NEW YORK OBSERVER



You have proven one thing, however....you're as good at smears as BeFree.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I wonder what Joe would have to say today
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 02:07 AM by Snazzy
"The involvement of Prescott Sr. and other members of the American business aristocracy with Nazi-era industry was shameful" seems rather weak to me as does the notion that we should not hold future generations accountable for the sins (if you can call crimes against humanity sins) of the fathers.

Joe writes before Abu Ghraib, before widespread torture was known, before we knew about CIA black sites, before we knew just how far they went to lie the USA into war, and well before the final body count was in (which isn't as yet, as the body count continues to grow).

No, dude, the Bush clan is a rotten and I think evil bunch, and has been through modern history. They have been exactly consistent in being in key positions in our government, in intelligence and in industry on exactly the wrong side (to us progressives) since that grandfather. Their modus operandi is clear, bring misery and chaos in the interests of profit and control.

Have they reached the full on order of evil of Hitler? No, but it's the same damn script. They are fellow travelers.

And as far as sorting out for you what this news story is about: do your own research. The documents are indeed there as are about 100 hits on google news, and a million+ I'm sure on the web. The crux of it is that known members of French intelligence were on the company's payroll for the experiments at the time of the incident.
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. +1 !
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. Thanks snazzy
That's why bushco must always be attacked. Bushco is the biggest bunch of criminals this country has ever harbored.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Cheers
Some irony that in a subthread denying that there is such a thing conveniently shorthanded as Bushco., the poster links to 1977 documents from Cheney to Rumy, and WH council to Cheney discussing how to avoid the appearance of a cover-up in the death of Olson.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Joe in 2007
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 03:26 PM by Snazzy


Can it happen here? Is it happening here already? That depends, as a recent president might have said, on what the meaning of "it" is.

To Sinclair Lewis, who sardonically titled his 1935 dystopian novel "It Can't Happen Here," "it" plainly meant an American version of the totalitarian dictatorships that had seized power in Germany and Italy. Married at the time to the pioneering reporter Dorothy Thompson, who had been expelled from Berlin by the Nazis a year earlier and quickly became one of America's most outspoken critics of fascism, Lewis was acutely aware of the domestic and foreign threats to American freedom. So often did he and Thompson discuss the crisis in Europe and the implications of Europe's fate for the Depression-wracked United States that, according to his biographer, Mark Schorer, Lewis referred to the entire topic somewhat contemptuously as "it."

If "it" denotes the police state American-style as imagined and satirized by Lewis, complete with concentration camps, martial law, and mass executions of strikers and other dissidents, then "it" hasn't happened here and isn't likely to happen anytime soon.

For contemporary Americans, however, "it" could signify our own more gradual and insidious turn toward authoritarian rule. That is why Lewis's darkly funny but grim fable of an authoritarian coup achieved through a democratic election still resonates today -- along with all the eerie parallels between what he imagined then and what we live with now.

For the first time since the resignation of Richard M. Nixon more than three decades ago, Americans have had reason to doubt the future of democracy and the rule of law in our own country. Today we live in a state of tension between the enjoyment of traditional freedoms, including the protections afforded to speech and person by the Bill of Rights, and the disturbing realization that those freedoms have been undermined and may be abrogated at any moment.

...


http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/2007/02/19/co... /

Seems he backed off that earlier position a bit in the form of a book. Fair enough, Joe!
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. That's funny...did Conason pronounce Prescott...
Bush to be a Nazi in that book? Nope.

Did Conason title that book, "It DID Happen Here"? Nope. Did Conason say W is a Nazi in that book? Nope.

Do you see how your labeling of Bush as a Nazi is just like RWers accusing Obama of being a "socialist"? You do realize the Nazis went quite a bit beyond being mere authoritarians, right? Do you have any idea what it was like to live under the Nazis? Do you really want to claim that, even as bad as the Bush administration was, it approached life under the Nazis?

P.S. Not only do I have Conason's book, he inscribed it. Somehow if he said Bush was a Nazi, I must have missed it, dude.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. That would be a false equivalence
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 09:19 PM by Snazzy
Is Obama a socialist? Not at all, I defy you to show any significant policy that has been enacted our espoused by Obama that resembles socialism.

Now forgetting for a moment that you conveniently gloss over anything that has moderated my comments (you don't do subtle do you?), were there in fact Bush policies and actions that share a lot with the authoritarianism and even evil of the nazis during those long 8 years? What's the end-game look like if that shit continued? (Hmm, sure sounds like your signed copy of this book discusses just this, dude).

Yes, there are a plenty. Start with the torture. Toss in some wars of aggression. Stir with plenty of big brother and dead brown people, enriched cronies and probably stolen elections. DU is chock full of lists of the anti-American authoritarian crap he and they pulled. (And this without getting into the source of the Bush family fortunes).

That's the false equivalence. Bush, shared a lot of thinking with the nazis, Obama and socialists, not so much. So you see it really isn't the very same thing at all is it?
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. It's hardly a false equivalence, dude....
"Bush shared a lot of thinking with the Nazis"

Really, dude? BTW, where did I ever suggest that Obama was even remotely socialist?

Did Bush ram through anything remotely like the Enabling Act to establish himself as a dictator? Do you remember how Bush left office in 2001? Does that sound Nazi-like to you? Do you really know very much about Nazi Germany? Could you point to the American equivalent of Krystallnacht? How about the "Night of the Long Knives"? Do you remember Bush constructuing death camps and gassing millions of people to death?

Comparing Bush to Hitler is just downright stupid, dude.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. really ... dude
It is like the insane echo chamber of the idiot box or perhaps a parakeet with bad hearing. I tire rapidly (and as always) of grade school attemts to recharacterize my statements to make some attempt at reductio ad absurdum or set aflame straw men.

Here's the thing: the other words in a person's statements do actually matter, not just when your ears perk up.

So for instance, when I said Conason had backed off his 2003 piece a bit (in the form of a book), and you come asking when he called Bush a nazi, we are no longer having the same conversation.

When I say Bush shared some thinking with the nazis but not on the order of Hitler, and you ask where were the gas chambers and how can I compare Bush to Hitler, again, we are not having the same conversation.

Or when I point to it being a lousy comparison, that you yourself made: the wingers calling Obama a socialist versus progressives daring to compare Bushco. to nazis, you ask where you called Obama a socialist. Again, not the same conversation, is it?!

So with that, I find this pointless. However yes, I did compare the Bush clan to nazis. Quote me. Really.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. " you ask where you called Obama a socialist"
Seriously, dude? Show me where I asked that.

And, you seriously compare Bush to a brutal dictator who sent millions of people to their deaths in gas chambers?

Quit embarrassing liberalism, dude. You don't know anything about Nazi Germany.
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Here, 2 up.
"BTW, where did I ever suggest that Obama was even remotely socialist?"

Maybe you don't read what you write either.

And there we go ago with Hitler again... And now mind reading. It's really getting a bit bent, so like I said, dude, later.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. Now, contrast what I asked with what you claimed I asked....
Edited on Sun Mar-14-10 12:26 AM by SDuderstadt
see the difference?

What I actually asked:

"BTW, where did I ever suggest that Obama was even remotely socialist?"


What you claimed I asked:

you ask where you called Obama a socialist


You mischaracterized my question, dude. By the way, I never called Obama a socialist, nor did I ever remotely suggest he was one.

You're as bad as BeFree. Knock it off, dude.



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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. I was looking for that Conason article. Thanks!
n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
32. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
59. To think it was less than 40 years ago that a tiny little conspiracy like Watergate brought down
a Presidency. We now have a second Democratic Presidency that refuses to prosecute blatant criminality in the previous administration.


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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. So Wrong!
Americans did this to French people? So very sad!

Mom knew a retired CIA guy years ago. He told her that stuff CIA had done would make her hair curl.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. Which proves he was not a "retired CIA guy".
Just another guy who loves to BS to make others think he is important.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Do you believe none of them ever progress to the stage of honesty?
I'm sure many get to the point where they have to talk about it to someone.
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harkadog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #21
51. I have been in the people business all of my work life
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 04:11 PM by harkadog
And people love to BS and outright lie about their past. Most people's lives are pretty boring to others so they like to dress it up with excitement. Pretending to be an ex-government agent of some sort is among the most popular because they can say almost anything and if someone questions them they say 'oh, well I'm not allowed to talk about that'. I have lost track of the number of people that have claimed to me to be Vietnam vets who were frauds. They don't know that all you have to do is find out their age and do some subtraction and they would have had to be 12 or 13 while serving in Vietnam. I have outed people on this board who claimed to be Iraq War vets because they thought no one would know anything about service in that area. Human nature.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. No doubt about it...
You're also describing the personality type best suited for work in covert operations - especially as a contract agent or asset who is subject to "deniability." These are the type of people outfits like the CIA (and its many hidden private extensions) can prey upon for use as tools.
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Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
54. I don't know if he was actually retired CIA guy
just what my mother told me.

Anyway, my ex father-in-law was CIA. It drove him to heavy drinking. He never shared anything to anyone of his family.
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pitchforksandtorches Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bonsoir monsieur I'd like that sandwich to go.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Completely criminal.
It's as if the Nazi scientists were just given CIA credentials.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Nazi scientists WERE given CIA credentials...
Others got to work at the Pentagon or NASA, or were placed in new identities in South America, where Klaus Barbie trained the security forces in torture methods and helped run the Bolivian "Cocaine Coup" of 1980.

But probably you know that and were being ironic.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-10 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Backlash Cometh
Backlash Cometh

In many instanses the NAZI doctors, and scientists was given just that, and NEVER facing anything resemtling a train by US or any of the other powers.. The most known was off course put to trail by either the eastern powers, or the western powers.. But thousands of willing murderes and killers, who between 1933 and 1945 had killed thousands, ten of thousands by "medical experiences" Specially in the consentration camps of the east, the use of prisoners was numerus.. As in the rest of the consentration camps in the whole of europe...

Many of them, who was put in the spotlight, even managed to evade capture, and helped either by the Vatican, or by other means to running to securty, in America.. Some even got true to The United States of America. And was naturalized before long, and when it was discovered what monster they had been, a couple of decades after, the US government did everything in their power to defend them from extredating to a waiting train in Europe.. Many infamous docks who had been in US for many years, in some instanses even 2 or 3 decades before the spotlight get into them, was defended by the comunity, who could not understand why this upstanding american was been accused of this horrible act of murders.. Even when dusins of vitnes was willing to travel - by own means to US to testifize against them, the US government, local Law enforcements and in many cases local District Attornities was NOT willing to even look at the case.. But in some cases the evidences was to grave, and some of them was either sent back to Germany to face trail - after years of figthing for extredating. Or faced trail in US. Who in many cases ended with a plea barging. Or the brave Doctor killing himself before sentending, so he could cheat the fact that he was looing for a long prison time...

The Dictatorships of South America also had their share of murders slaughters who had given a hell of pain to thousands, ten of thousands, maybe houndred of thousands of european between 1933 and 1945. Dr Mengele was maybe the most known case, but he was not alone.. And it is a point that Dr Mengele in the 1960s was so secure of his own saftey that he lived in town, as himself.. No different name.. But in the name of Josef Mengele MD.
But in the end he had to run for cover in the jungle of Urugay, where he was placed by the government, and had to pay for hewly guard to protect him against they who wanted him to justise.. The end was that he drowned in a lake when he was swimming.. Even tho many belived him to live long after 1980...

Diclotican
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snake in the grass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. The CIA is a terrorist organization. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. Blame the CIA!
(Ignore Occam's Razor)
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. No. Blame the CIA's bosses.
Allen Dulles and Richard Helms, for starters.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Here's a novel idea, dude...
why don't you prove the CIA was actually responsible for the incident i France, THEN we can figure out who's to blame.

See how that works?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Right you are.
We need documentary evidence to establish the facts. That's why DCI Richard McG. Helms ordered CIA to destroy all the MK-ULTRA and the LSD program records. Most of what we know is the result of Sen. Frank Church's committee, which took the testimony of surviving witnesses, like that of Dr. Sidney Gottlieb.

I thought you knew that.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. Wouldn't it be easier to admit you have no evidence of...
CIA involvement in the incident in France?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. No. Leaving no evidence behind is how professionals operate.
That's why Richard McG. Helms ordered everything CIA could find in their records about human LSD experimentation destroyed.

Ever hear of the Family Jewels?

It's smart, uh, policy.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Yeah, dude....
I've been to the National Security Archive at GWU. Have you?


Leaving no evidence behind is how professionals operate.


Dude, you're suggesting that the lack of evidence against the CIA in the incident in France is actually evidence they were involved. This reminds me of RWers during Clinton's impeachment who claimed that the lack of evidence against Clinton, "just shows how sneaky he is".

Dude, do you have evidence of anyone doing anything?

Let me pose the question I asked BeFree. No one is arguiong that the CIA hasn't done bad shit. However, are you glad we have the CIA?

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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
71. Occam's Razor?
Edited on Sun Mar-14-10 11:47 AM by JackRiddler
Are you referring to the convenient heuristic (not a scientific law) for formulating hypotheses in the natural sciences by minimizing the "entities" or suppositions lacking evidence required to make the hypothesis work, also known as the principle of parsimony? The rule of thumb that a human being defined?

Well, when rocks like humans can issue press releases claiming they're not subject to a downward force of about 10 meters per second per second, let me know. Otherwise admit that thanks to consciousness and reflection and the ability to deceive each other, humans regularly circumvent "Occam's Razor," which anyway is not a law.

Or let me know when rocks like humans attempt to divert from evidence by way of thought-stopping platitudes that may make the speaker feel smart and smug, but don't actually say anything. Especially when what is included into the set of facts requiring an explanation is itself highly contestable, as is usually the case in human affairs.

By the way, at least get your terminology right. In the social sciences, and they do happen to be the subject here, "Occam's Razor" is properly referred to as the "Nerd Self-Lobotomy."
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the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
26. LSD does not cause nausia or diarrhea
So I question this.

Not that I don't put it past the CIA....
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FreeState Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. That and "diethylamide, one of the main substances - the D - in LSD." WTF??
LSD, Lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD-25, LSD) - is one substance the D is not seperate, diethylamide is LSD.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yes it can
It tends to be from psychosomatic causes,however.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
55. it sounds more like DOM
Edited on Sat Mar-13-10 05:57 PM by G_j
also called STP, something the CIA also experimented with.


...........
.Jan 14, 1967
Human Be-In in San Francisco is attended by 20,000. 5,000 doses of DOM (STP) were distributed for free, unfortunately, they were distributed in approximately 10-15 mg doses, 5-10 times higher than recommended.

Hundreds of people experienced extreme trips lasting up to three days with many ending up in the hospital.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. Saw a PBS special once that claimed mouldy wheat could have caused hallucinations that led to
accusations of witchcraft in the Salem witch trials.

"Ergot is caused by the fungus Claviceps purpurea, which affects rye, wheat and other cereal grasses. When first infected, the flowering head of a grain will spew out sweet, yellow-colored mucus, called "honey dew," which contains fungal spores that can spread the disease. Eventually, the fungus invades the developing kernels of grain, taking them over with a network of filaments that turn the grains into purplish-black sclerotia. Sclerotia can be mistaken for large, discolored grains of rye. Within them are potent chemicals, ergot alkaloids, including lysergic acid (from which LSD is made) and ergotamine (now used to treat migraine headaches). The alkaloids affect the central nervous system and cause the contraction of smooth muscle the muscles that make up the walls of veins and arteries, as well as the internal organs.


http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/ergot.htm

:shrug:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
37. K&R + a related archived thread: CIA Domestic Operations Division: DU thread #3
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
65. VIDEO: Henry Albarelli: CIA keeps testing drugs on people
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #65
84. +1 (these threads that bring the Dungeoners out are always fun)
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-13-10 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
66. Albarelli claims to have uncovered CIA documents that refer to "the secret of Pont-Saint-Esprit"
So, where are these documents?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. Good question.
So maybe you should read his book.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Maybe, since it's your claim....
you should produce them.

Why do CT's routinely demand that their opponents prove the CT's claim?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. It's Albarelli's claim as related by Radio France International...
based, as written up, on documents from the Rockefeller Commission and other government sources. I've ordered the book and it will go into a stack, to be read within a few months. In the meantime, I believe I'm allowed to post links to interesting stories in the mass media (and not just those). And if you have problems with "CTs," whatever those are, you should perhaps take it up with one of them.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Dude...it's YOUR OP....
which, in turn, is based upon Albarelli's claim. Are you disowning your own source?

The issue is that a number of posters immediately jumped on this (shoot-first, ask--questions-later) and uncritically proclaimed the CIA guilty, all the while, the supposed evidence for this claim is not presented. DOes something strike you as odd about this?

If you look at the language of the OP, I think it's clear you presented this as speculation but, without documentation from Albarelli, there is no reason to accept it. However, a number of gullible conspiracists here did just that.

And, that's precisely my criticism of conspiracists, even if they're on "our side". Frankly speaking, how is this any different than the tactics Orly Taitz employs? We liberals can do much better.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. Don't "we" me, sir.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. Nice dodge, dude...
Edited on Mon Mar-15-10 01:29 AM by SDuderstadt
where are the Albarelli docs?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Read. And I'm not your "dude," sir.
Thank you for kicking this valuable thread.
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I'm not your "sir", dude...
And, I'm always glad to expose your silly threads.

Simple question. Where are these "CIA" docs Albarelli claims corroborate his claim about the French incident?

Wouldn't it be simpler to say you don''t have them, rather than try to deflect by telling me to "read" It's YOUR claim, dude. It's not my fault you went out on a limb and Albarelli pulled the rug out from under you. Quit insisting I prove your claim for you.

Do you have the documents or not?
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #86
87. Bullying, incivility and putting words in my mouth. Feel free to keep debating yourself.
Thanks for the kick to an interesting thread!
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. You don't have the docs, do you....
why not just say so?

"Bullying"....LOLOLOLOLOL
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-14-10 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
76. Acid Dreams is a good book to read on CIA involvment in LSD
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
79. NY Times apologized for calling Allen Ginsberg a tinfoil hatter
April 11, 1978 - New York Times publisher, C L Sulzberger to Allen Ginsberg

Dear Allen,

I fear that I owe you apology. I have been reading a succession of stories about CIA involvement in the dope trade in South East Asia and I remember when you first suggested I look into this I thought you were full of beans. Indeed you were right and I acknowledge the fact plus sending my best personal wishes.

C.L. Sulzberger
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SDuderstadt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. This would be far more believable...
you linked to some sort of documentation.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. True, here it is
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
80. I don't buy it
Ergot poisoning outbreaks leading to hallucinations used to be a fairly common event in medieval times, when it was referred to as 'St. Anthony's Fire'. And despite having consumed LSD ~100 times, and been around for thousands of other people's trips, I have never seen any evidence of LSD causing nausea or diarrhea. Even the most minimal experience with LSD would make it obvious that it's pretty useless as a mind control drug since it doesn't make people quiescent or suggestible - there are other drugs that would be far more useful for this purpose.

But since it alleges bad behavior by the CIA, there'll be no shortage of people willing to believe every word.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-15-10 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
81. Well, that makes me feel better about spiking riot police sandwiches (in US) with LSD...
Ok, I never really did that.
Ok, I did.
What's the statute of limitations like on spiking sandwiches with LSD?
Ok, I didn't...
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-16-10 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
88. How come I'm never around when the CIA is passing out free acid?
I've been around a LOT of CIA people, and they NEVER bring free acid. About all you can get out of most of them is coffee.

Now, there was this extremely cute CIA analyst down in Norfolk. Just adorable, sweet as could be, very intelligent on most things but dumb as a fucking rock when it came to the workings of the military. And she was hired on as a military analyst! You'd think they would train these people on Army stuff before they send them on Army exercises, right?
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